Ari Shapiro, THE BEST STRANGERS IN THE WORLD: Stories from a Life Spent Listening
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and
[0:21]memoir.
[0:22]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag, where we have lots of wonderful essays and
[0:30]lifestyle features.
[0:31]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes, it's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Ari Shapiro is the author of the best strangers in the world, stories from a life-spent
[1:08]listening.
[1:09]Ari is the host of NPR's All Things Considered.
[1:11]He won the Edward R. Murrow Award for coverage of the Trump administration's asylum
[1:15]policies on the U.S.-Mexico border.
[1:18]The Columbia journalism review honored him with a laurel for his investigation into disability
[1:23]benefits for injured Americans, the American Bar Association, awarded him the silver gavel
[1:28]for exposing the failures of Louisiana's detention system after Hurricane Katrina, and at
[1:33]age 23, Shapiro won the Daniel Shore Journalism Prize for an investigation of methamphetamine
[1:39]use and HIV transmission.
[1:41]He lives in Washington, D.C. and he is also the member of a band which we talk about
[1:46]in the episode.
[1:47]Welcome Ari.
[1:48]Thank you so much for coming on Momstone.
[1:50]I have time to read books to discuss the best strangers in the world stories from a life-spent
[1:55]listening.
[1:56]It's an honor to be here.
[1:57]I'm so forward to talking with you.
[1:58]I feel like I could write a book called Stories from a Life-Spent listening.
[2:01]I think I might steal that at some point.
[2:03]The great thing about listening is that it's something we all have the ability to do,
[2:07]and it can kind of be a superpower.
[2:09]And I actually think that the act of listening can change people's lives, and it's not
[2:14]a talent you have to be born with or study for years like playing the piano or the violin.
[2:19]It's just something you can sort of pay attention to and focus on.
[2:24]It's true.
[2:25]Yeah.
[2:26]Everybody out there.
[2:27]Get better at listening.
[2:28]Just practice.
[2:30]Okay, Ari, tell listeners about your book.
[2:34]Why did you write this book?
[2:35]What's the book about blah, blah, blah?
[2:37]So, you know, friends often ask, probably stay optimistic as a journalist, given everything
[2:41]that's happening in the world today, and everything that I chronicle on a daily basis
[2:44]on all things considered.
[2:47]And the answer that I give them is something that evolved into what's in the pages of
[2:53]this book.
[2:54]And so, yes, as you read the book, you'll go aboard Air Force One with the President
[2:58]of the United States.
[2:59]You will go into a war zone and meet vastly outnumbered fighters who are trying to defend
[3:03]a sacred temple against ISIS.
[3:04]You'll go backstage at the Hollywood Bowl before singing in front of thousands of people.
[3:09]But I think if the book has any impact, I hope what that impact is, is reminding people
[3:16]of all of the incredible humans in the world who are so much more like us than we might
[3:22]realize, and all of the good that those people are doing to sort of bed the arc of the
[3:29]universe in a direction of kind of hope and connection and empathy and goodness.
[3:36]I hope that doesn't sound too star-yide idealistic, but that's actually how I feel, even
[3:40]as a journalist covering the terrible things that happen in the world.
[3:43]I think it's even better coming from a journalist who has seen all the terrible things
[3:47]in the world.
[3:48]And by the way, I went back, I've had the best time preparing because all morning I've
[3:53]had your music in my computer, so I watched your Hollywood Bowl performance, and I was like,
[4:01]this is so cool to know what he was thinking and then to watch.
[4:04]I mean, it's so neat.
[4:06]It was such, well, I mean, I think performing at the Hollywood Bowl is a stretch for anyone
[4:11]in any circumstances.
[4:13]For me, it was the first time I had ever sung with a band anywhere.
[4:18]And it was not just any band, it was a band that I had idolized and been a huge fan
[4:23]of since I was in high school, pink Martinez, the name of the band.
[4:28]And so, to be invited to sing with this group that I've been obsessed with my whole life,
[4:34]at the Hollywood Bowl of all places.
[4:37]And as I described before you walk on stage, you see these big framed photographs of like
[4:41]Ella Fitzgerald and Jimmy Hendrix and Beatles and Judy Garland, and then you're literally
[4:45]walking in their footsteps to go out there on that stage.
[4:49]Yeah, I've never experienced anything like it.
[4:52]Amazing.
[4:53]For context, for people listening, not only is Ari on all things considered, but in his
[4:58]spare time, he tours with Pink Martini, and you have to go and Google this and like download
[5:03]some of the song.
[5:04]My alter ego.
[5:05]Yeah, alter ego.
[5:06]And I love how even you said that people at work, you didn't even tell them about it and
[5:10]they were like, they would find it on the grainy clips and all that.
[5:12]Well, I felt like kind of like a betrayal of my journalistic ideals, you know, I thought
[5:18]I was supposed to be this Walter Cronkite-esque figure who would be stern and stentorian
[5:24]and therefore taken seriously.
[5:27]And the voice in the back of my head said, well, if you sing with this band, if you
[5:31]like have fun in a visible public way, then you'll no longer be taken seriously.
[5:37]That was more than a decade ago.
[5:39]And fortunately, I've evolved somewhat since then.
[5:41]I now think it's really important to have fun and demonstrating the importance of fun
[5:47]is one of the things that I hope I can do for people because if you take yourself too seriously,
[5:51]then what's the point?
[5:52]I love that.
[5:53]I went to Yale too, by the way, what's the group for you and I was in mixed company.
[5:57]I had a feeling, I just had a feeling, my friend, I don't know if I should take that as
[6:04]a compliment.
[6:05]No, no, I really close friend Rebecca Shrag was in mixed company.
[6:10]Oh, my God.
[6:11]I love Rebecca Shrag.
[6:12]Yes, I just saw her at a reunion and actually she is coming to see.
[6:17]So another thing that I do as you know, besides singing with Pam Martini is I do a show
[6:22]with Alan Cumming and we're performing it at the carlyle in mid-April for a couple
[6:26]of weeks and Rebecca is going to be there.
[6:29]Oh, my gosh.
[6:30]So I'm looking forward to seeing her.
[6:31]Were you in a singing group as well?
[6:32]No, I was, but I was, she was and I felt like every, I got to college and I was like,
[6:38]wait, suddenly like being able to sing is, is the ticket to like be cool.
[6:42]And this was before Glee before American Idol, like before any of that.
[6:47]I make all these guys.
[6:48]That is so wild.
[6:49]Or I'm like trying out from, Baker's doesn't, the women people like, oh my God, I remember
[6:53]this one.
[6:54]Do you know Matt Maser at school?
[6:55]I don't know.
[6:56]Anyway, he's like, what's going on?
[6:58]Like, I can't sing and now all my friends are in singing groups and like, who knew, you
[7:03]know, all these, you know, I thought it was athletics that I had to be good at.
[7:06]somebody who was in mixed company with me became one of my best friends.
[7:10]And is the reason I ultimately met Alan coming because my friend Ben E. Glee was in
[7:15]cabaret with Alan on Broadway for the second time.
[7:18]And it was when I went to see Ben and then went to visit him backstage that Ben introduced
[7:22]me to Alan and then Alan and I years later created this fun ridiculous absurd show that we do.
[7:28]And there's a whole chapter in the book about featuring Cheetah Rivera.
[7:32]Yes.
[7:33]And sometimes I organize events for like the moms and have time to whatever community
[7:36]or whatever.
[7:37]We should do an outing and watch your thing at the Carlyle.
[7:39]I would be thrilled.
[7:40]That would be so fun.
[7:41]I'm going to look it up and find out what it is.
[7:44]Okay.
[7:45]Now that I'm totally off track here in our conversation.
[7:47]I should have asked how much this gets edited, but whatever.
[7:49]I'm well.
[7:50]It doesn't get edited at all.
[7:51]Okay.
[7:52]Thank you listeners for coming on this journey with us back into our college reminiscences.
[7:57]Anyway, Rebecca was like one of my best friends in high school and then I knew her in
[8:01]college obviously.
[8:03]Okay.
[8:04]One of the chapters I loved was your writing about how you select fiction.
[8:09]What the role of fiction does for you, what you read on your vacations, how you deal
[8:14]with your mom recommending books.
[8:16]So talk about the power of fiction.
[8:21]So first of all, I just have to shout out to my mom.
[8:24]She's a voracious reader.
[8:25]She has great taste.
[8:26]I never read anything she recommends, but for good reason because like 95% of the reading
[8:31]that I do is for author interviews on all things considered.
[8:34]And if my mom is recommending something, it has already been published.
[8:38]And the only books I get to read are ones that have a pub date in the future.
[8:42]So that said, for me, fiction is the way I see the world through the eyes of somebody
[8:49]else.
[8:50]It's what I aspire to do through journalism that fiction I think does so effortlessly when
[8:55]it's written well.
[8:56]And so, you know, I just read the novel that Abraham Vergies has coming out and made
[9:00]called the Covenant of Water, which covers 70 years in one family in southern India.
[9:06]And it transported me there and helped me understand a way of life and a perspective on
[9:13]the world that I would never otherwise have access to.
[9:17]And you know, one of the fiction writers who I think about actually the most frequently
[9:21]is N. K. Jamison, who writes in the fantasy science fiction genre, which is not one that
[9:27]I would otherwise gravitate towards, but I read her broken earth trilogy for an interview
[9:33]after she won the Hugo Award for the third year in a row for best novel for this trilogy.
[9:38]She was the first black woman ever to win that award for best novel.
[9:42]And then the only person ever to win it three times in a row.
[9:45]And so I was interviewing her and I asked about why she wanted to write about apocalypse
[9:49]or start this trilogy with the end of the world.
[9:52]And she said she was really interested in when we consider an apocalypse to have begun
[9:57]because what so many people think?
[10:00]that is apocalypse is the reality that others have been living in for a very long time already.
[10:06]That blew my mind and I think about it all the time when I'm out in the world covering
[10:12]climate change, mass murders, racial justice protests, whatever the case may be, I think
[10:17]I hear the voice of NK Jemisin talking about apocalypse.
[10:21]And in so many ways, I just think fiction helps me understand the world even better
[10:26]than I realize.
[10:28]I'm kind of like dissing my own chosen profession here better than the real life stories
[10:35]that I tell through journalism.
[10:36]Well, you said in the chapter two that, you know, losing a child or some one of these
[10:42]things that it just changes your worldview forever, the fires that you were like dealing
[10:46]with at the time.
[10:47]Yeah.
[10:48]How is this just the norm, you know, how, and what does that do to you when you realize
[10:52]that?
[10:53]So I don't, I just loved it.
[10:54]And the question is like, what do we even define as the norm, you know, like, so that's,
[11:00]yeah.
[11:01]That's what I wanted to.
[11:02]Yeah.
[11:03]If it's okay, I just want to read this paragraph here at the end of the chapter.
[11:05]And I tell you, this is the first time I've heard anyone else read from my book and I'm
[11:08]really excited.
[11:09]Really?
[11:10]Oh my God.
[11:11]Absolutely.
[11:12]Absolutely.
[11:13]So many underlying paths do this the whole time.
[11:14]So exciting for me.
[11:15]I'll do two passages that, okay, fiction serves as that reminder for me newsroom bosses
[11:20]sometimes treat author interviews as a treat or a diversion, a break from the daily work
[11:24]of chronicling the world's politicians and corporations.
[11:27]But for me, those conversations are not a novelty.
[11:30]They help us find a path leading out of the darkness.
[11:33]Despite what power structures may want us to believe writers help me see that we are all
[11:37]walking together in the same long journey toward the light.
[11:41]I don't have to glance over my shoulder to make sure it's true.
[11:44]I can just look down at the page.
[11:46]Oh, I love that so much.
[11:48]I love reading.
[11:50]I love that I get to do it for my job and I love that I get to talk to authors about it.
[11:54]It's like one of the many privileges of hosting all things considered.
[11:58]Yeah.
[11:59]And I don't take it lightly.
[12:00]And I also really mean what I say about like, it's not dessert.
[12:02]It's not a treat.
[12:03]It's not an afterthought.
[12:04]It is as much the bricks and mortar of the structure we're building as anything else I do to
[12:08]mix several metaphors.
[12:10]That's okay.
[12:11]Mix them up.
[12:12]You also wrote about, I love this line where I'm going to read the whole paragraph.
[12:17]It felt like a superpower, disability to move between worlds.
[12:20]And by the time I graduated from Yale and became a journalist, I realized that these
[12:24]boundary crossing skills I had picked up as the Jewish kid in Fargo and as the gay teen
[12:29]in Portland could serve me as a reporter.
[12:31]I found a career where I could perform those acts of translation and be liaison for groups
[12:36]to which I had no personal connection beyond my journalistic interest.
[12:40]My microphone and headset served as a snorkel and mask.
[12:44]And I strapped them on, I could enter colorful hidden worlds that were invisible to people
[12:49]on the surface and then came the important part sharing those worlds with others.
[12:54]That is so good.
[12:55]You should have the whole like logo, like you should do the snorkel and mask as like your
[13:00]signature sign or I don't know something.
[13:04]It's so true though, whether I'm, you know, in coastal Senegal talking to people whose
[13:08]homes were being sawed up by rise and seas or at a bikers for Romney rally talking to guys
[13:15]with their harleys, I found this job where I can go into places I would never otherwise have
[13:22]access to and ask people really personal questions, invite them to take me into their lives
[13:30]and so often they do.
[13:32]And then I get to tell you about it like it's, it's a privilege that I don't take for granted.
[13:39]How do you pick books for all things considered?
[13:41]Well, the blessing and the curses that I'm on a lot of publicists mailing lists.
[13:46]But you know, the really good ones, and I'm sure many publicists listen to this podcast,
[13:52]the really good book publicists are the ones who know what makes a book good for all things
[13:58]considered. And maybe even bonus points here, no might taste because a book that I might choose
[14:03]to do is different from a book that Mary Louise Kelly or also Chang or one of summer's might choose
[14:07]to do. And so there are so many books published in any given month. I try to get a range,
[14:13]I try to get books that I actually want to read because I read every book covered a cover before
[14:17]I interview the author. I can't believe that. That's amazing. I just do, but I can't.
[14:22]You know, I feel like if somebody's going to spend two, three years writing a book,
[14:26]the least I can do is spend a week or two reading it. And also I want to be an informed
[14:29]interviewer, whether I'm preparing to interview a politician in which case I'll read speeches
[14:33]they've given and interviews they've done recently or an interview a filmmaker and I'll watch
[14:37]the movie. Like if I'm interviewing an author, I want to read the book. Anyway, and so it's
[14:41]it's an art and not a science. I try to keep a balance of fiction and nonfiction. I try to get
[14:46]you know, books that sort of reflect the world as it is in all of its diversity and richness
[14:51]and uplift and heartbreak. And of course, if there are authors I love and I have a new book
[14:56]coming out, I think to myself, yes, absolutely. I want to do that. I do a podcast every day.
[15:01]And I used to it when I did one a week, I would read the whole book cover to cover every single
[15:04]time. And I was like, how could I possibly not read the whole thing? And now I've figured out ways to
[15:09]read quickly. And I don't know. I want to have a whole sidebar conversation. I know we should
[15:15]just talk about it. There's another job. You're right. The secrets behind this line of work of sorts,
[15:22]but mind you, I like was so fascinated about your sweating, which seems ridiculous, but I really have
[15:29]to hear about this. You know, I wrote this chapter as sort of like a burst the bubble,
[15:36]release like breath of fresh air, whatever you want to call it. Like there are all these stories
[15:41]about difficult in some cases heartbreaking things. I wanted a chapter that was just sort of like
[15:46]fun, light, funny, take me down a couple of notches. Every single person has asked about it.
[15:51]Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's great. It's great. It's great. That was not a criticism. I think it's
[15:59]important, especially when you were in a position of high profile success to show the ways in
[16:06]which you actually struggle and to show the things that are difficult and to show that not
[16:11]everything is like an effortless slam dunk. And so the chapter about sweating is basically a
[16:17]chronicle of all of the times and places I have felt embarrassed, humiliated, it fill in whatever
[16:25]phrase you want to use by just profusely sweating in the wrong time in the wrong place in front of
[16:32]very important, powerful people in moments when like I'm supposed to be keeping it together,
[16:38]a voice of authority, a swab performer on stage. And instead, just like I'm a melting snowman,
[16:45]I'm a popsicle in the feed. And I want people who look at this book and think, you know, he has
[16:54]it so easy. I realize I recognize that I have so much privilege. I also want people to know that
[17:00]like sometimes there are humiliating moments and that's okay too because that's a part of life.
[17:07]Yeah. Like when you hug Bono, maybe you'll be joking. Just thinking about it.
[17:13]Oh, okay. You got to read the book for the full story. Listen, there's an anecdote involving
[17:20]Bono. By the way, I didn't take away from this book. And by the way, I did read your whole book,
[17:26]covered a comment. So you know, I appreciate that. But okay, I didn't take away that you felt like
[17:32]you had life so easy at all. I mean, you, you detail like things you've overcome. And I don't know,
[17:38]I just didn't, there was nothing about it that seemed glib and thinking things for granted,
[17:44]especially in the really great way you write about coming out early at age 16,
[17:49]your whole chapter on the Pulse Night Club was heartbreaking, but amazing. And maybe you could
[17:55]talk a little bit about that. And just like what it, how it feels to you when gay clubs, which are
[18:00]like family, as you write about. So beautifully, like get targeted and how you get over that. And
[18:06]friends, you knew from before. And you know, that, that through line, even though you poke fun at
[18:12]so many things, like your best friend, Rich and all of that. And finally getting to marry him,
[18:16]which I love. So you know, one of the things that I wanted to explore in the book was the way
[18:24]the stories I've told have shaped the person I am. And on the flip side of that, the way my
[18:29]identity shapes the stories I tell because I entered journalism at this time where the view from
[18:36]nowhere was put on a pedestal and the value of objectivity was above all. And I recognize that for
[18:46]every story I tell, I bring my history and I bring my full self to it. And sometimes that's
[18:50]relevant. Sometimes it's not. But particularly when I came to the Pulse Night Club shooting,
[18:55]which was a story I volunteered to go cover, I realized how much I brought to that story
[19:03]myself as the storyteller. And I had other colleagues who were there covering it as well. And
[19:09]they did a great job. But the fact that I had not only been to gay bars, but been to gay bars in Orlando
[19:15]and spoiler alert, as I learned at the very end of my reporting in Orlando, I'd actually been
[19:21]to Pulse. And I had this incredibly memorable night there and made these friendships. But the name
[19:27]of the bar had sort of like vanished in my mind. And by the time I went to cover the Pulse shooting,
[19:31]I thought, well, whatever that place was, I'm sure it had long since closed. And it was it was late
[19:36]in my week of reporting that I was interviewing the editor of the free gay weekly paper. And I said,
[19:39]oh, I actually gone bar hopping in Orlando and made friends with these bar tenders. And he asked what
[19:44]the name of the place was. And I didn't remember. And he asked me to describe the layout. And so
[19:49]I described what the place looked like. And he said, that was Pulse. And so suddenly these memories
[19:56]that I've been interested in were like connected to the story that I was covering.
[20:00]And, you know, as I say in the book,
[20:02]like any pretense of objectivity pop like a soap bubble.
[20:04]And I look back on those stories
[20:06]and I think there's some of the best work I've ever done,
[20:09]not despite my history and identity,
[20:11]but because of it.
[20:12]And I think that's important.
[20:14]It was really beautiful.
[20:15]That chapter was really moving.
[20:16]Thanks.
[20:17]I also found it interesting that you brought up
[20:19]how you were a middle child
[20:20]and that your mom says like,
[20:23]oh, well, of course you end up
[20:25]like talking to millions of people
[20:26]so that they can listen every day
[20:27]because like none of us listened to you at home
[20:29]when we sent you to school,
[20:29]it's like eggs and all over your face.
[20:31]Which I did not think I was an ignored middle child
[20:34]to be clear at my grandmother's 90th birthday
[20:38]when my mother, who is very funny, said up,
[20:41]and then there's my middle child already
[20:42]who was so ignored millions of people.
[20:43]He had to find a job where millions of people
[20:45]would listen to him every day.
[20:46]It'll like blue my mind.
[20:48]I thought, oh my God, does that explain my entire career,
[20:51]my entire adult life?
[20:54]I don't know.
[20:54]I mean, you know, if so, it worked out all right.
[20:57]Thanks mom.
[20:59]I love how you brought up the whole crazy dog, calm dog thing,
[21:04]which I think about all the time
[21:06]when my kids have tantrums, for instance,
[21:08]had like, you have to be the calm person.
[21:10]Like if I tantrum when my kids tantrum,
[21:12]it just like makes them spiral more.
[21:14]And so you have to like be in it,
[21:16]but you use that analogy as well.
[21:18]So talk a little bit about that.
[21:20]And the importance of like,
[21:21]you saying, being the calm objective person
[21:24]in the world.
[21:25]I remember the show, the dog whisperer.
[21:27]Yeah, of course.
[21:28]Yeah, okay.
[21:29]All right, like I don't know how many people watched this.
[21:30]This was before everything was streaming.
[21:32]And one of the things he would do
[21:34]when there was a high strung dog
[21:36]was he would just bring in a calm dog.
[21:38]And no matter how yappy and barking
[21:41]and snarly the high strung dog was,
[21:43]the calm dog would just exude chill energy.
[21:47]And eventually the crazy dog would chill out too.
[21:52]And I think we all have crazy dog moments
[21:54]and we all have calm dog moments.
[21:56]I tend to be more on the calm dog end of the spectrum.
[22:00]But the first time I went to record
[22:02]with Pink Martini and studio,
[22:04]which was before I performed with them live
[22:06]in the Hollywood Bowl,
[22:07]I was a full spun up crazy dog.
[22:10]And one of the percussionists named Martini Zarsar,
[22:14]who's no longer with the band,
[22:15]but like he was my calm dog.
[22:19]And you know, the fact that he was literally like keeping time
[22:23]might have had something to do with it,
[22:24]but it was also just in that moment, his personality
[22:27]gave me what I needed to come down
[22:30]from my crazy dog mania and like do what I needed to do.
[22:35]I think that's a very good reminder for all of us.
[22:37]Like when you're having your crazy dog moments
[22:39]to have a calm dog around,
[22:41]I feel like my husband is my calm dog.
[22:43]Totally.
[22:44]Somebody you can call, somebody you can just check in with,
[22:46]like yeah.
[22:48]And they don't even have to do anything active.
[22:50]It's just their presence.
[22:53]Yeah.
[22:54]I know, my husband's out of town,
[22:55]and I'm like, I can feel myself falling off the rails
[22:57]with just a few days.
[22:58]And he doesn't even, you know, why does this happen?
[23:02]In the book, you give advice to people to just start, right?
[23:06]If they want to start a career in journalism or any of this,
[23:09]you just have to start, you just have to do it.
[23:11]So tell me more about that and what advice you have
[23:15]in general, like how else can you help people?
[23:17]Especially people who are accustomed
[23:20]to operating at a high level,
[23:22]they want to do things well.
[23:23]And the way to get good at things
[23:26]is to start out by doing them poorly and just do them.
[23:29]And so I often tell beginning journalists,
[23:31]like don't be precious about trying to create something
[23:35]award-winning, just make things and keep making them.
[23:38]And like focus, this is going to sound crazy,
[23:42]but focus on quantity, almost before quality,
[23:46]especially for people who, you know,
[23:49]take pride in the work they do,
[23:51]you can get so in your head as a perfectionist,
[23:54]that if instead you are just like,
[23:56]I'm going to make one thing and then another,
[23:58]and then another, and then another,
[23:59]and then another, the act of repetition
[24:02]will make you good at it.
[24:03]And of course, seek feedback and debt assessments
[24:07]and critique and like, you know, do the work to improve,
[24:11]but don't get so in your head about trying to do it right
[24:14]that you don't do it at all.
[24:16]Like I go back and listen to my early stories
[24:19]and I cringe, and I think, oh God,
[24:22]I would have done that so differently today.
[24:24]But that's a good thing because if you're not growing
[24:27]and improving and learning and doing things better
[24:29]20 years down the road than you were when you started,
[24:32]then you've been stagnant for 20 years.
[24:34]So like, of course, there's a learning curve.
[24:36]Of course, there's improvement.
[24:38]That shows you're doing it right.
[24:40]I actually, when I interviewed Danny Shapiro,
[24:41]she was saying the same thing
[24:42]because I loved her slow motion,
[24:44]her one of her first memoirs.
[24:46]And she was saying, she's like,
[24:47]you're always talking about my early work.
[24:48]Like, she's like, I'm so much better now, get it.
[24:51]Well, that's what I was terrified about
[24:53]with writing this book because nobody goes back
[24:56]and listens to my early radio stories,
[24:58]but a book will sit on the shelf forever
[25:01]and be like, the book that you wrote.
[25:03]And so I was like, God, if I'm as bad a writer
[25:08]in my beginning careers and author,
[25:10]as I was a journalist in my beginning careers and journalist,
[25:13]I'm gonna be really embarrassed by this book.
[25:16]But I was like, you know, the fact that it's scary means
[25:19]I need to do it.
[25:19]The fact that I'm uncomfortable and it's unfamiliar
[25:22]means it's worth putting myself out there and try it.
[25:26]Well, also, I feel like, I mean, not that I know you so well,
[25:29]but it's your voice in the book.
[25:31]Like, it's very clear that it's you writing,
[25:33]but it's not like you're trying some,
[25:36]you know, esoteric literary device.
[25:38]You know what I mean?
[25:39]I feel like you're letting us get to know you on the page.
[25:42]So that also made it really fun
[25:43]to record the audio book
[25:44]because after this long journey of like an unfamiliar place,
[25:49]when I sat down to record the audio book,
[25:50]I thought like, oh, okay, this is something
[25:53]that's in my skill set.
[25:54]This is something I know how to do.
[25:56]Yeah, and I recorded my audio book for my memoir.
[25:58]They were like, okay, we're gonna allocate like two weeks
[26:01]for this.
[26:02]And I was like, no, I just need like a day.
[26:02]And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, trust me,
[26:06]I'll be fast.
[26:07]And I was in and out in like day.
[26:09]But it's really amazing.
[26:10]A day and a little bit.
[26:11]But anyway, what else is coming next?
[26:13]What are you having on the docket?
[26:15]Like, what can we look forward to?
[26:16]So obviously, I'm hosting all things,
[26:19]considered on a regular basis, though.
[26:20]I'm taking the pause to promote this book
[26:22]in an 11 city tour, which I'm so excited about.
[26:25]Oh my gosh.
[26:26]So getting out into the world and meeting people
[26:27]where they are.
[26:28]I'm also doing this run of shows with Alan coming
[26:31]at the Cafe Carlyle.
[26:32]And then I regularly perform with Pink Martini.
[26:35]I do every New Year's Eve show
[26:36]and other scattered shows over the course of the year.
[26:40]Oh, I also have a course coming out with laundry.
[26:42]I'm the online teaching platform
[26:44]that's about the power of storytelling.
[26:46]So, you know, I always try to keep using
[26:48]a variety of different muscle groups, so to speak.
[26:51]As I say in the book, the thing that I love
[26:53]about hosting all things considered
[26:54]is not any one piece of it.
[26:56]It's the totality and range of things that I get to do.
[27:00]And I also apply that to my life beyond all things considered.
[27:03]So I really get joy from using my vacation days
[27:07]to go out and exercise my creativity
[27:10]in these other ways.
[27:12]So I'll continue doing that.
[27:14]So cool.
[27:14]And by the way, it was so genius
[27:16]on your social media.
[27:18]You have chapter descriptions in different posts.
[27:20]Like no one's done that.
[27:21]I was like, why is nobody done this?
[27:23]This is so brilliant.
[27:24]It randomly occurred to me to do that.
[27:27]And I looked at the calendar when it occurred to me.
[27:29]I thought, wait, how many weeks until my pub date?
[27:31]And it was literally 17 weeks until my pub date
[27:35]when I thought of it.
[27:36]And I have 16 chapters in an introduction.
[27:38]So I just thought, oh, starting now.
[27:40]And one thing that I'm very proud of
[27:42]is that I have managed to keep one single Twitter thread
[27:44]going with all so far 15 of those chapters.
[27:48]I was sure I was going to mess up and break it
[27:50]and do something wrong.
[27:51]But so far, so good.
[27:54]I'm scared of Twitter.
[27:55]I'm like, I'm just going to say it.
[27:56]It can be a scary place.
[27:57]I don't blame you.
[28:00]Ari, thank you so much.
[28:01]This has been really fun.
[28:02]Thanks for having us.
[28:03]I have loved this conversation.
[28:04]Thank you for having me.
[28:06]Let's all hang out with Rebecca Stragg.
[28:07]Yes, I'm going to organize a thing for your...
[28:10]I really love that.
[28:10]Let me know.
[28:11]Okay, well, okay.
[28:13]All right, bye.
[28:14]Thanks, bye.
[28:15]Thank you, bye.
[28:17]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[28:19]Don't have time to read books.
[28:21]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens
[28:24]and at Moms Don't have time to read books.
[28:26]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[28:28]and sign up for my virtual book club
[28:30]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:33]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan Fekk,
[28:34]Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:37]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:38]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.