Leigh McMullan Abramson, A LIKELY STORY
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[1:03]Lee McMullen, Abramson is the author of a likely story, a novel.
[1:08]Lee was also one of our guests at the recent fierce women retreat that I threw at canoe
[1:13]place.
[1:14]And if you haven't heard about that, go check it out on Instagram at zippy Owens.
[1:18]And also you can join our next retreat, which will be in Charleston, April 28th to 30th.
[1:24]And we have three more that we're planning right now.
[1:27]Well, maybe two more.
[1:28]Anyway, it's going to be very exciting.
[1:31]And Lee was such a wonderful guest and panelist for the whole weekend.
[1:34]It was amazing.
[1:35]Anyway, Lee has written for The Atlantic, The New York Times, tablet magazine and more.
[1:40]She grew up in New York City, the daughter of a children's author and an illustrator.
[1:43]Lee's parents often collaborated on picture books, many based on Lee's own childhood experiences.
[1:48]Lee studied ballet at the School of American Ballet into her teens, but eventually rebelled
[1:52]against her artistic family by going to law school.
[1:55]She practiced law for several years before following her passion for writing.
[1:59]now lives in New York City and Vermont with her husband and two young children.
[2:02]Welcome, Lee.
[2:03]Thank you so much for coming.
[2:04]And moms don't have time to read books to discuss a likely story, a novel.
[2:08]Thank you.
[2:09]I'm so excited to be here.
[2:10]As you know, I mean, I've been saying this since you first sent me this galley and I started
[2:14]reading and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good.
[2:16]We have to do events.
[2:17]We have to do this.
[2:18]We have to do that.
[2:19]And obviously, I've known you for a very long time, but it is such a joy to like open up a
[2:23]book and fall in love again with someone in a whole new way through their words.
[2:27]And so great.
[2:28]I'm so excited for you.
[2:30]Oh, well, thank you.
[2:31]Thank you.
[2:32]Honestly, you were such a satisfying reader and I know you are that for many people, not just
[2:38]me, but I thank you for that because it really does make this whole profession worth it
[2:43]when someone reads your work and gives you such a generous satisfying reaction.
[2:48]So thank you.
[2:50]No problem.
[2:51]Yeah.
[2:52]You have so much talent.
[2:53]I'm so excited to see how, you know, the response of this book, how your whole career
[2:59]unfolds.
[3:00]I'm just like very excited to watch.
[3:01]I mean, I was literally just telling someone on my two downstairs and it's like, and
[3:05]we were in baby group with our babies and my brother anyway, it's so funny.
[3:10]Yes.
[3:11]I think I met you for the first time at your birthday party in like the late 90s, maybe.
[3:19]Oh, my gosh.
[3:21]Okay.
[3:22]Lee, tell us what is a likely story about.
[3:25]So a likely story is about the daughter of a very famous writer who is trying to be a
[3:32]writer herself and she's having a very hard time doing it.
[3:36]And the book begins when her mother has passed away suddenly, leaving her alone with
[3:41]her very famous father and feeling very adrift and very concerned about her career and
[3:48]her life as she's about to turn 35.
[3:51]So she is struggling to write a book.
[3:54]She's having a lot of rejection.
[3:56]She feels very consumed by this and that she is going to be a failure.
[4:02]So as she's going through the process of processing her mother's death, she finds something
[4:09]that was left for her and that sort of sets her off on a course that I don't want to
[4:16]give too much away, but that leads to success, but also puts her into a sort of impossible
[4:24]situation and has her keeping very big secrets and feeling a turmoil in a different way.
[4:33]And throughout that, she and her father have to come to a sort of new understanding
[4:39]of each other and their work.
[4:43]Excellent pitch.
[4:46]One of the things I liked most about the book is how you describe people and situations
[4:54]in such like the way you observe people and things, even the simplest things, like waving
[5:02]people on to get a crowd to be quiet, like in Europe.
[5:06]Just like the way you say that people just don't write that motion that of it.
[5:11]You're just like, I'm not being very clear, but there's just like a tiny, it's just
[5:15]one of a bazillion examples I could open any page and give more, but just the way you see
[5:20]things and the way you say things, especially about society and especially about writers,
[5:26]oh my gosh, I have so much to ask, okay, let's talk about writers first.
[5:29]Ed is obsessed with his own fame and getting secrets, new things such as his own letters
[5:37]and trying to go to stores where they idolize him.
[5:40]Tell me about writing that character where he came from and just the development of that
[5:45]whole thing.
[5:46]And then also I want to know about just how you started becoming such a great writer.
[5:50]Like you're training, where did this came from?
[5:52]So just go on those two tangents.
[5:54]Okay.
[5:56]So, Lord, I've always been really interested in really successful, famous people because
[6:03]I look at a really famous person and I think, wow, like they must feel so good.
[6:07]They must feel so satisfied.
[6:09]But I actually think with a lot of really successful people, it's the opposite.
[6:13]It's never enough.
[6:14]The adulation must be constant, like a drip or they feel anxiety.
[6:20]And it leads them to be successful, but it also is ultimately really almost difficult.
[6:27]And something I always think about when I think about this is the movie Soap Dish from
[6:33]the early 90s.
[6:34]Oh my god, I love that, baby.
[6:36]Sally.
[6:37]Wasn't it Sally Field?
[6:38]Yeah.
[6:39]Sally Field is a famous soap opera actress and when she's feeling bad, like she's not
[6:44]getting enough attention, she has her assistant or manager who's whoopie Goldberg.
[6:49]She's a photo with her to a mall in New Jersey and like pretend to recognize her so
[6:54]she can spend the rest of the day having people like come up to her and signing autographs
[6:59]and like get that sort of hit of, you know, adoration.
[7:04]And I think, so when I think about Ward, I think he would also fit into that Sally
[7:08]Field's character of kind of, it's never enough.
[7:12]So yes, he is obsessed with reading his own fan mail and he is, you know, doing anything
[7:18]he can to put himself into situations where he will be complimented and, you know, have his
[7:25]ego like boost it up in the way that he really wants that.
[7:28]So I think that's something that I always was really super interested in.
[7:34]And I wanted to explore and with Ward and I hope, you know, he's obviously a narcissist.
[7:39]He obviously is, you know, does some not so great things in the book.
[7:44]But in a way, it's like I wanted to look at like the flip side of that, which is actually
[7:48]kind of lonely and a little pathetic, ultimately for him.
[7:52]So, so yeah, that's Ward.
[7:55]In terms of writing, I always like to write as a child, but my parents are my mother
[8:02]rights children's books, my father's an artist.
[8:05]So I was like, I'm definitely going to do something totally different.
[8:08]I, you know, I want to not follow in their path.
[8:12]So I went to law school and became a lawyer and didn't really like it very much because
[8:18]I don't like conflict, which is probably something I should have thought about before.
[8:22]I went into the beginning.
[8:25]So yeah, but I did like the writing aspect of it and I see this in my acknowledgements,
[8:30]but I clerked for a judge, she told me that I was very good at writing the like story
[8:36]of what happened in the case.
[8:38]And she didn't really say anything about the actual legal part, which is probably weaker.
[8:43]And it made me think and I was writing these really long, you know, drafting, helping
[8:49]draft these really long opinions.
[8:51]And there was something about that.
[8:53]I remember one time I thought like I just, you know, helped draft this 60 page opinion.
[8:58]Maybe I could write something that's long in a book, but it took me a long time to kind
[9:03]of work up the, the nerve.
[9:05]And I started writing kind of articles and essays and getting the published here and there.
[9:11]And finally, then I did a year of an MFA at Columbia in nonfiction.
[9:17]But then I had a baby and I also had decided that I thought I wanted to write a fictional
[9:22]book.
[9:23]So I only did the one year at the MFA and then I just kind of started trying it out
[9:28]on my own.
[9:29]And yeah, that's kind of how it worked.
[9:31]And it was a long, long process as I think is the case for many, many writers.
[9:36]I feel like the headline should be like, MFA dropout makes sense, you know, right?
[9:44]No.
[9:45]It's true.
[9:46]You know, I really liked it.
[9:47]It was just once I once I had a baby and I thought I was in the nonfiction program and
[9:52]thought I wanted to write fiction.
[9:53]I just didn't know.
[9:54]It didn't make any sense.
[9:55]No.
[9:56]So smart to not waste anymore time.
[9:58]So when you started.
[10:00]this novel. What was the kernel of an idea that really drew you to do it? And then once
[10:06]you started working on it, how, like, just take me through that whole thing and how long
[10:11]it took and which direction do you win and just the whole thing.
[10:15]So I had worked on another novel for a while about like, you know, in three years or something.
[10:23]I did a law firm, which, you know, after I wrote it, my agent, who is, I love so much
[10:29]and who has just done so much for me. She took me on based on that novel, but warned
[10:35]me, like, no one wants to read about, like, workplace novels about lawyers. And I was like,
[10:41]you're probably, you're probably right because it wasn't like a thriller. It wasn't a legal
[10:45]thriller.
[10:46]Chandler Baker, Whisper Network.
[10:47]Yeah, it's like a huge success. But anyway.
[10:50]Yes, no, this was more about, you know, lawyers kind of anguish at their being lawyers.
[10:58]But anyway, maybe it was a little too, like, close to home. So that, so that's it and
[11:03]work out. And I started running another novel. But certainly, you know, my main character
[11:08]is a frustrated writer, right? So I think I kind of leaned into that a little bit.
[11:13]I wanted to explore ambition, artistic ambition within a family. I'm an only child.
[11:20]So the, like, triangular structure of an only child family is interesting to me. So I wanted
[11:25]to think about, like, how, how, like, ambition is experienced by, like, three members of
[11:30]the same family. And that was how the books kind of started. And I wrote, I wrote it.
[11:38]I don't even know. It took me like a year and a half to write, like, a really solid draft.
[11:45]And then I kind of thought, well, I think this is close. And then it was like March of 2020.
[11:52]So obviously everything shut down. I didn't really work on it for six months because
[11:58]I was just dealing with having kids at home and, you know, not going crazy. And then
[12:03]when I opened it back up in September of 20, I realized that the major problem of the book
[12:09]was that the whole book is referencing this mystery manuscript, but the manuscript did not
[12:15]appear in the book. So I went back in and I added, like, snippets from the manuscript
[12:22]into the book, which I think was a huge, that was a real, like, aha moment that I think
[12:28]made the book work much better. And then so I worked on it for maybe like another six
[12:36]to eat months. And then then it was sent, you sent out. What was that like? Did it get picked
[12:42]up right away? It must have. Yeah, it was quick. The process was quick. I actually remember
[12:47]because I, you know, I was very nervous and I thought, like, well, if this doesn't work
[12:53]out, I'm just going to have to do something else. And, you know, my agent was very good at,
[12:57]like, I will let you know if there's news, if there's not news, you're not going to
[13:00]hear from me. And it was, I decided I'm just going to leave my phone inside and I was playing
[13:06]with my daughter outside. And because at that time, we were living in Vermont. And I was
[13:11]playing with her for like an hour or two. And I came in and I had like seven missed calls from
[13:17]her. And she was like, where have you been? Of course. It's like the time you look away
[13:22]is when things happen. Wow. That's exciting. Is it a preempt or oxygen preempt? Oh my gosh, so cool.
[13:29]So amazing. So let's talk about the character of Isabelle for a little bit. This, as you said,
[13:33]frustrated writer, daughter of somebody very famous, which brings its own sort of set of
[13:37]complications, trying to make her own impression in the world. How did you tap into that? Like,
[13:43]what is that? And did you, and I know your parents are obviously well known. And, you know,
[13:48]your dad's posters are like gorgeous at Lincoln Center and all of that. And you know,
[13:53]I'm familiar with having outsized figures in my life. So tell me about just that character and
[13:59]that particular piece of it. And what that does to a character or a child or whatever.
[14:05]Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't, you know, I feel like I understood a little bit about having,
[14:12]I mean, my parents are not super famous at all. But I understood having, you know, a parent that had
[14:17]some public facing kind of persona. And that people thought was very talented in an artistic way.
[14:24]So I did have that kind of way to get into the character. But I also just felt like interested
[14:31]in the idea of being the child of someone so successful. And how that's actually like really hard,
[14:39]I think in a way that people may not think about a lot because it seems like, well, that would be
[14:44]amazing. And I think it has benefits. But I also think it's really, it's really hard. And so for Isabel,
[14:53]you know, she's also not always a likable character. But I think she really is doing something
[15:00]which is pretty universal, which is seeking like parental approval. And I think she feels that
[15:06]the only way to do that is through being a successful writer. And that's the only way to get,
[15:13]you know, her father's attention and have him really like see her as, you know, a worthy kind of
[15:21]successor to him. And obviously through the course of the book that somewhat challenged. But I think
[15:28]she's very my apically focused on that goal because she feels she wants approval.
[15:38]Interesting. Tell me about the decision to have the accident be a part of things.
[15:43]So I felt like there needed to be something very jarring to happen to Claire for her to make
[15:51]some of the decisions that she made around, you know, her own aspirations. And I think as mothers
[15:58]at least for me, I always feel like a sense of guilt, even if it's not, even if it's not rational,
[16:05]if I'm not, if I take my attention away from my kids and a sense of like, is it going to be okay?
[16:12]If I'm not like focused on them all the time, is that going to be okay? And how will that work out?
[16:17]So I think, you know, if something bad happens to your child's, you know, I can understand her feeling
[16:27]like, okay, like I just need to focus like only on my child and have this feeling of like,
[16:34]nothing else matters. I think that's something that some parents struggle with, like how,
[16:39]you know, how to balance not just your time, but your focus and your energy. And there's not
[16:44]always connections between those two things, but I'm someone who can create connections and very
[16:50]easily feel like something bad happened. Let me retrace how this is my fault. So, you know,
[16:58]I think she had a little bit of that and the accident kind of caused her to think that way,
[17:02]probably not rightly. Well, you wrote Claire so well that I found myself like missing her
[17:11]no, really, along with Isabel and like, you know, even like these little things about her, like,
[17:16]how nobody was like scraping the bottom of the pot and they kitchen or like, a little like
[17:21]grocery list. It's just these tiny little details about her. And then of course, you know,
[17:27]you develop her character so well and everything. I don't know. I just, I feel like I miss her.
[17:31]Well, she's probably the most likable one. I mean, maybe her and Brian are the most like
[17:37]little characters in the book. And Brian is the best friend who, you know, years ago had a crush
[17:45]on Isabelle and then they just become like really close friends. What made you do that and not
[17:49]have them be in a relationship or have her have a love interest at all in that, you know, at least
[17:55]in the parts of it. And, you know, well, I think so originally when I first started writing it,
[18:02]they wore together actually, but I ultimately felt like Brian had to be the stand-in for the reader.
[18:10]He has to be the one who's able to like have perspective of like this family's values are kind
[18:15]of out of whack. This isn't actually normal. Like the things she takes for granted and cares about aren't
[18:21]actually the things that most people are so focused on. So it was really important to get that
[18:27]perspective. And I felt like if he was like her boyfriend or married to her, he would not have the
[18:33]right amount of distance. They're needed to be a little bit of more space between them at least
[18:37]for, you know, most of the books. So I think he's kind of important for the reader to put their
[18:44]frustrations into Isabelle and Ward. Like he provides that outlet a little bit. And I thought he could
[18:51]do it better as not a member of the family or more as the like the friend, the outsider.
[18:57]And the locations also play big roles in the story. The Upper East Side of Manhattan,
[19:03]Sag Harbor and the Hamptons and how Ward sort of discovered it and, you know, has been there for
[19:09]so long and hates the summer crowd just like all the regulars and, you know, just how he keeps,
[19:14]you know, you take the reader and the characters sort of back and forth throughout the course of the book.
[19:19]Tell me about just developing that sense of place and what that did and, you know, just your thought
[19:24]behind that. Well, I definitely feel like a setting I need to know well to write about it because
[19:32]it's something that I feel like people really enjoy when you get right. And it's annoying if you
[19:37]get it wrong. Though there was a very nice copy editor at Simon and Schuster at Atria who I will
[19:43]forever be grateful for because she helped me. There's a scene where Ward is driving from
[19:48]Sag Harbor to Riverhead. And she was like, no, no, no, no, no, you're taking the wrong roads.
[19:55]And I was like, thank you because I had gotten kind of mixed up.
[20:00]But I think it's a kind of thing that readers really,
[20:02]if they know a setting better than you,
[20:04]they'll notice that.
[20:06]So I want to kind of make sure I know a setting really well.
[20:10]And so I did do it in New York and Side Harbor
[20:15]because I felt like I knew those places
[20:18]well enough to really ground the book there.
[20:20]And we'll see in future books,
[20:23]like maybe someday I'll be able to go spend six weeks in Paris
[20:27]and write a book there.
[20:29]But for now, I'm going to have to stick with the places I know.
[20:33]So what are you thinking about for your next book?
[20:35]Well, we spend a lot of time in Vermont over the pandemic.
[20:39]So I'm thinking of setting a book there
[20:41]about a woman who inherits a bookstore
[20:43]in mysterious circumstances.
[20:46]But it's slow going, not a fast writer.
[20:50]That's OK.
[20:51]I know you have this whole community of other awesome women
[20:55]authors, many of them have been on my podcast
[20:57]and who I know as well, like Judy Battalion
[20:59]and Alyssa Friedland and Lawrence Miss Brody,
[21:02]and who is like your whole crew?
[21:03]They're awesome in their own way.
[21:05]So Judy and I met at Columbia and we have fellow dropouts.
[21:11]So funny.
[21:12]And I were in a class together at Columbia
[21:14]and I was pregnant and she had to be fairly recently.
[21:18]And so we kind of, you know,
[21:20]while the people in there early 20s were like at bar shrinking,
[21:24]we were kind of in our own little world.
[21:26]And yeah, she's amazing.
[21:28]I love her so much and her books are so, so good.
[21:32]So yeah, she's great.
[21:34]Her book is light of days and it's amazing.
[21:38]And yeah, and then Lauren Smith Brody and Alyssa Friedland
[21:42]I met at the Society Library because we were all working
[21:46]on books there at the same time.
[21:49]So yeah, no, it's really important I think to have
[21:53]because you don't really have co-workers as a writer,
[21:56]as you know.
[21:57]So it is really important to have friends
[22:01]and people you can sort of talk to about
[22:04]what you're going through and yeah.
[22:06]And as you were going, did you show them
[22:08]or did you show anyone your pages?
[22:10]I did.
[22:11]I showed my husband like a really rough draft
[22:13]that he was like, this is pretty rough.
[22:16]But no, he was definitely right.
[22:20]And then he read it again when it was for it done.
[22:23]And he was like, wow, like this is amazing
[22:26]that it went from that to this.
[22:27]And so that was good.
[22:28]And Judy read it.
[22:30]I think Alyssa and Lauren both read it
[22:32]like as it kind of progressed.
[22:35]And then, you know, when we were getting ready to sell it,
[22:38]we had some like cold readers who didn't know me
[22:41]had no allegiance to me read it
[22:44]and kind of give feedback, which was really helpful.
[22:47]Wow.
[22:48]So having been through this journey
[22:50]and now about to have this be out in the world,
[22:54]what advice would you have so far for aspiring authors?
[22:57]I mean, it's sort of simple,
[23:00]but I think it's just to keep going and not give up.
[23:04]And if you have faith and the idea and the work that like,
[23:08]it's usually a matter of just persevering,
[23:12]I think that's really the most important thing.
[23:15]And I have to tell myself that as I start a new book
[23:17]because I don't know how you feel
[23:19]that I don't feel it gets much easier.
[23:21]Yeah, I don't think it does for anybody.
[23:25]But even word, I mean, and that's like so great.
[23:28]Here he is.
[23:29]You think it's so easy for him,
[23:31]but you're like, meanwhile, his sales have been declining
[23:34]each book.
[23:34]And so he's like buying up stock
[23:37]and trying to make it especially if he feels like totally
[23:42]insecure about it.
[23:43]Yeah, I think that's, you know,
[23:45]unfortunately, like I do think that's kind of,
[23:48]they're probably very few authors who are like,
[23:50]I'm good.
[23:51]It's just kind of coasting from here on out.
[23:54]It's probably not, doesn't work like that.
[23:56]Well, ultimately it's art, right?
[23:58]And so any creative project product you put out
[24:01]into the world, you just don't know.
[24:04]And there's some like, I don't know,
[24:06]some sort of alchemy that happens
[24:08]when you're making something.
[24:10]And it's like, is it going to happen?
[24:12]Is it not?
[24:12]Like, is it going to come out of it?
[24:14]Or is it going to be weird?
[24:15]Like, or my guys or whatever.
[24:16]And you just sort of have to hope that it happens.
[24:19]But yeah, but I think that is true.
[24:22]I also think I'd be really concerned if I wrote something
[24:25]and I was like, oh, that was easy.
[24:27]I think I'd probably be like, I'm missing something.
[24:30]Like, yeah, I don't know if it is,
[24:33]what I think it is.
[24:34]I think I remember reading some advice somewhere
[24:37]that's like, if you write something and think,
[24:39]like, this is the best thing I've ever written,
[24:41]like, give it a week and let it be.
[24:43]I'm looking at it because it's probably not.
[24:46]Well, I have to say your type of writing too
[24:48]where the sentences themselves are beautiful.
[24:51]I mean, this is like a literary writing style.
[24:53]It's not just like, what comes out of your head.
[24:55]I mean, it's beautiful.
[24:56]Like, it's beautiful writing.
[24:58]You can't rush that.
[24:59]You can't just like, you have to think about the words.
[25:02]Yeah, I mean, yeah.
[25:03]It's interesting though,
[25:04]because like some of the like freezes and sentences
[25:07]like I thought of and like they made it through the book.
[25:11]But I almost like thought of them
[25:13]and then the book kind of
[25:16]are around a little bit in some cases, in some cases.
[25:19]Like, I write a lot of nonsensical emails to myself
[25:22]with like descriptive terms and things that I'm like,
[25:26]oh, I want to use that or you know,
[25:28]because they kind of come to you in random intervals.
[25:31]So if someone looks at my email, they'd be like,
[25:33]what is she, because there's lots of just,
[25:35]just non sequiters just out of curiosity.
[25:39]And like last question, the writers who you love
[25:41]or you know, comps you had for this book
[25:43]or like, you know, readers of or whatever.
[25:46]Like, where are you seeing the book
[25:47]or who are the people you love and all of that?
[25:50]You know, I think the comps for this book
[25:52]that we use like sort of like the nest and the plot,
[25:56]like those books kind of together a little bit.
[25:59]And both of those books I really admire.
[26:03]I think that the writer should have so talented.
[26:06]In terms of books, you know, I love that I've read recently
[26:11]Flight by Lynn Strong.
[26:13]I just thought amazing.
[26:15]So, so good.
[26:17]I got a chance to read Laura Hankin's new book,
[26:21]Daydreams, which is really good and fun
[26:24]and just, which is coming out in May.
[26:26]And right now I'm actually reading a memoir
[26:28]that someone who read my book recommended
[26:30]called Also A Poet.
[26:32]Oh yeah.
[26:33]Who, which is some of the similar, you know,
[26:36]successful father, daughter, dynamic.
[26:38]So it's interesting to read that
[26:40]after having written about some of those issues.
[26:44]So interesting.
[26:46]Well, Lee, I'm so excited for you.
[26:48]I'm excited you're being a huge part of the retreat
[26:51]that we have on March 11th in Hampton Bay,
[26:54]it's not quite Sag Harbor, but close enough.
[26:56]Yeah.
[26:57]And yeah, I'm just so excited for you.
[27:00]Oh, well, thank you.
[27:01]Thank you, Libby.
[27:02]Thank you for having me on.
[27:03]What I remember when you started this podcast,
[27:05]and I was writing, and in my mind,
[27:06]I was like, I hope one day I will get to go off this podcast.
[27:11]Here I am, and I made it, and you made it.
[27:14]And I still am doing the podcast.
[27:16]That was amazing.
[27:19]So, thank you so much.
[27:20]I'm going to love you.
[27:21]You really appreciate it.
[27:23]No problem.
[27:24]Oh my gosh.
[27:24]Okay, so I will see you very soon.
[27:26]You soon.
[27:27]Take so much.
[27:27]All right, bye, Lee.
[27:30]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:32]Don't have time to read books.
[27:34]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[27:36]at Zebi Owens, and at Moms.
[27:38]Don't have time to read books.
[27:39]Also, sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[27:42]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:43]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:46]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[27:47]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[27:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:52]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.