Alexandra Robbins, THE TEACHERS: A Year Inside America's Most Vulnerable, Important Profession
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Alexandra Robbins is the author of The Teachers, a year inside America's most vulnerable
[1:07]important profession.
[1:09]And by the way, we were supposed to be doing this as a normal podcast, but a friend of mine
[1:13]had an accident and I had to do this in the car on my way to go visit her.
[1:17]So if it sounds weird, bear with me, but I was being a really good friend.
[1:22]Alexandra Robbins, the author of Five New York Times Best Selling Books and a Goodreads
[1:26]Best Nonfiction Book of the Year, is an award-winning investigative reporter who has been
[1:30]honored for distinguished service to public education.
[1:33]She is written for several publications, including The New York Times, The New Yorker, The
[1:37]Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic.
[1:39]And as appeared on hundreds of television shows, including 60 minutes today, CBS mornings,
[1:44]The Oprah Winfrey Show, The View, and The Colbert Report.
[1:46]Welcome, Alexandra.
[1:47]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss the
[1:51]teachers, a year inside America's most vulnerable important professions.
[1:55]Thanks so much for having me, Zippy.
[1:57]This is such an important book and focusing on such an undervalued, obviously, profession
[2:03]in the states that you just completely went in there and did your thing and all of
[2:10]it tell listeners how this whole book came to be and your experience in reporting and
[2:16]writing about it.
[2:17]Well, I wanted to write a book that would open the public's eyes about what's really
[2:22]going on in schools.
[2:24]I also wanted to show teachers that they are deeply appreciated, that they're not
[2:29]alone, that they can find solidarity and support.
[2:33]And most of all, I wanted to motivate readers to stand up for and speak out for educators
[2:38]right now before it's too late.
[2:41]I also wanted the book to be the kind of book that you could give to a teacher as a way
[2:45]of saying, I appreciate you and now I understand what you're going through.
[2:50]In terms of the writing, the kind of nonfiction I like to read, I'm honestly a mostly
[2:55]fiction girl, I read fiction every night before bed.
[3:00]I can't read nonfiction before bed because then my brain goes into work mode and I'm like,
[3:04]oh, how did you probably understand?
[3:05]How did they structure that?
[3:06]How did they do the reporting for that?
[3:08]So I have to read fiction before bed so I can escape.
[3:11]So the kind of nonfiction I like to read is the kind that feels like a fun fiction
[3:16]book, but then when you put it down, you feel a little smarter or a little more informed
[3:22]about a topic.
[3:23]So in this case, education.
[3:25]One of my favorite reviews of all time in my career called my writing style pool side
[3:29]nonfiction and I love that because when I read nonfiction, that's why I want to read
[3:34]the kind of book you could read by the pool.
[3:36]So the way I structured the book is for a school year, I followed three excellent teachers
[3:42]whose stories readers could curl up with and get lost in.
[3:46]There's Penny, a middle school math teacher in the South, Rebecca, and East Coast Elementary
[3:52]School teacher and Miguel, who's a special ed teacher called West.
[3:57]I also interviewed hundreds of other teachers across the country.
[4:01]So people can truly understand what is going on in schools.
[4:04]So what is going on in schools?
[4:06]Oh my gosh.
[4:08]It's not even what's going on in schools.
[4:12]It's what's going on around schools.
[4:14]It's affecting teachers.
[4:16]Oh, there's so much.
[4:18]So what's happening on a basic level is that we have these skilled professionals who
[4:26]are trained and certified to educate our children and they are being mistreated.
[4:31]They are under siege from all sides.
[4:34]Students are more disruptive than ever and even just one disruptive student in a class
[4:38]can disrupt the entire class for everyone, teachers and students.
[4:43]District officials and sometimes principals are piling on and piling on extra time
[4:47]consuming responsibilities on teachers without giving them the resources or the support
[4:53]staff or the planning time or the structural supports to actually execute those duties.
[4:59]At the same time, the teacher pay gap has hit a record high.
[5:02]US teachers have paid about 24% less than other professionals with similar education
[5:08]experience and there's, how can I say this, certain sectors of politicians and parents
[5:15]are loudly vocalizing disrespect for the profession like never before.
[5:22]And they are stripping teachers away of the autonomy that they should have in the job
[5:27]that the only they are trained and certified to do.
[5:31]So all of that helps explain why teachers are fleeing the profession and why listeners
[5:38]here might have kids in classes without a teacher or with a long term sub or with a different
[5:43]sub every day or kids who are scattered among other classes every once in a while because
[5:49]they just can't find coverage for them.
[5:51]That's a basic level.
[5:53]What's going on?
[5:54]I'm sorry.
[5:55]I put you on the spot there.
[5:57]No, I mean, sometimes I think about this too, like this year in particular, I have four
[6:01]kids.
[6:02]My two young kids kids, they have really great, great teachers.
[6:04]They're so happy.
[6:05]But that is what's making the year amazing for them, right?
[6:09]And I think about this every day when we like smile at pickup, like thank goodness
[6:12]for them because just even a slight bit of rudeness or something can throw a kid off,
[6:19]let alone the things that you document in the book and like actual, you know, things that
[6:24]are occurring everywhere, it's mind blowing how much influence this one particular person
[6:30]is.
[6:31]And even when I interview authors, I find that a lot and I don't know if this happened
[6:35]to you, but most authors are like, well, at some point a teacher told me that I had talent.
[6:41]At some point a teacher said, I was a writer and I should keep writing.
[6:44]Did you have that experience even yourself as a writer?
[6:46]Yeah, I did.
[6:47]My sixth grade teacher, I mean, I did write in a class journal every day and we would just
[6:52]like write stuff for 10 or 15 minutes.
[6:54]And she came to me after class one day and she said, I saw what you wrote in your journal.
[6:59]I'd like to submit it for the superintendents writing award.
[7:03]And like, it's just something I scribbled in my journal and she's like, yes, but I think
[7:07]you are a writer.
[7:08]I was like, okay, you know, sure, that's fine.
[7:11]And it got it.
[7:12]And it never, it never would have occurred to me, I mean, I liked writing, but it didn't
[7:16]occur to me that that I was that good at it until until she did that.
[7:21]So a teacher recognized that I had a passion for something that was a strength and that
[7:27]changed my life.
[7:28]Amazing.
[7:29]So how did you take us through your own career and been so accomplished to date
[7:34]across journalism and books and everything.
[7:36]And by the way, pool style action is amazing.
[7:40]You're in the like, Michael Lewis, James Stewart, you know, like highly accessible.
[7:45]So I personally loved this style that you have.
[7:49]Thank you so much.
[7:50]Okay, career, like Lee, I was really into journalism in high school, isn't because of
[7:57]that teacher.
[7:58]I was like, okay, let me write some more.
[8:00]At the end of high school, I knew I wanted to go into journalism.
[8:04]I wrote an article, oh, this goes way back, I never told anybody this story.
[8:08]So I wrote an article for a local newspaper that I was interning for the summer after
[8:13]high school about how county policies discriminated against LGBT students.
[8:19]And wrote the piece, gave it to the editor, editor didn't get back to me.
[8:23]So I was like, you know, I just feel like this is really important, it was something
[8:26]this is a long time ago.
[8:28]This is in the 90s.
[8:29]So it was before people were talking about it as much as they are now.
[8:34]And ended up submitting it to the Washington Post.
[8:37]And the Washington Post said, yeah, like we'll print this.
[8:40]And they went through the editing process and it was almost the publication date.
[8:45]And then the local paper published my article under another reporter's name.
[8:50]And so yeah, I never forgot that.
[8:53]And again, I never told anybody that story.
[8:55]I don't know why.
[8:56]I'm up now.
[8:57]And that happened.
[8:59]I can't believe that.
[9:00]Yeah.
[9:01]And I asked that.
[9:02]And I said, why did you do that?
[9:03]And she's like, well, you're 18.
[9:05]So like, we can't publish it under your name.
[9:08]Like, anyway, so what I learned from that was several things, one, you have to stand up
[9:13]for yourself.
[9:14]I did quit that paper.
[9:15]Two, at that point, the Washington Post was interested in what I had to say.
[9:18]And they published something else I wrote within the year.
[9:21]And three, I was interning for a radio station at the same time here in Washington.
[9:25]Washington DC.
[9:26]And I was crying to my mentor, the reporter at the station.
[9:31]And she said, you have to just focus on moving forward and using your writing for good.
[9:38]And so ever since then, I guess that's what I've tried to do.
[9:41]I'm honored you told me this story.
[9:44]I feel like it's maybe the fate of local papers and services in the revenge for your
[9:53]work.
[9:55]Sure, we'll go with that.
[9:57]It's hard, man.
[9:58]It's coming back.
[10:00]I'm not paying against local papers.
[10:01]That's that one editor.
[10:02]Like getting, I'm totally getting.
[10:04]I actually love, I mean, like the palisades
[10:06]post all the time, you know,
[10:08]he's chimps and star and all these local, you know,
[10:10]I like it's fun.
[10:11]They have like, it's fun news.
[10:12]And I mean, local papers near City
[10:14]are like, what, the post, I guess I don't know.
[10:17]Okay, so when did you decide,
[10:19]I mean, there's never been more attention on teachers
[10:21]than after COVID and how amazing a job they did stepping up.
[10:24]And, you know, just saving the world essentially.
[10:28]So that's, you know, everybody could continue
[10:31]getting an education even though obviously
[10:32]some districts did a better job than others.
[10:35]When was this, this must have been conceived
[10:37]way before?
[10:38]So tell me about the timeline of everything
[10:41]and through what you want the public really to take away
[10:44]and what we can actually do because I feel like
[10:47]it's sort of well known
[10:48]that how teachers don't get enough respect
[10:51]or salary or whatever, like, is there anything
[10:53]we as concerned citizens really can do about it?
[10:57]Yeah, absolutely.
[10:58]So I think the seeds of the book started germinating in 2015.
[11:03]That's when I published a book called The Nurses,
[11:05]where I followed ER nurses for a year
[11:08]and talked about their working conditions.
[11:10]And nursing and teaching are very similar professions.
[11:13]They are both female dominated in the workforce.
[11:16]However, they're overseen by men in the case of teaching
[11:21]about three quarters of the teaching profession
[11:23]identify as women and 73% of superintendents identify
[11:28]as men.
[11:30]So there's a disparity there.
[11:32]And when you have that kind of dynamic,
[11:36]there are certain stereotypes that go along
[11:38]with the professions.
[11:39]People treat nurses often in similar ways
[11:42]as they treat teachers.
[11:44]And so when that book came out, teachers read it
[11:47]and said, well, we're going through something similar.
[11:50]Can you write a book about us?
[11:52]So I started thinking about it then.
[11:54]I started talking to people then.
[11:56]I published another book in the interim
[11:58]and then probably shortly before the pandemic,
[12:03]I really started reporting this book in depth
[12:05]and getting into it.
[12:07]And then the pandemic changed things
[12:12]in terms of the way people view teachers.
[12:15]But it didn't cause the issues that we see today
[12:19]in the teaching profession.
[12:20]So while there's a heightened sense
[12:23]and a heightened polarity as to the views of teachers now,
[12:27]it's not because of the pandemic.
[12:28]So while COVID is mentioned in the book,
[12:31]I don't actually focus on it exclusively
[12:33]because I think to do so would be a disservice
[12:35]to the teaching profession.
[12:36]Okay, what can we do?
[12:37]Yes, everybody listening can do something to help teachers.
[12:43]First of all, teachers need the public's trust.
[12:45]Teachers are trained and certified to educate students
[12:49]and we need to let them do that
[12:51]without second guessing them.
[12:53]So even something as small as saying
[12:55]in front of your child, I trust your teacher.
[12:58]I know you're uncomfortable with this assignment
[13:00]or it seems really challenging or really easy
[13:03]or whatever it is,
[13:04]but I trust that your teacher knows what they're doing.
[13:07]If you model respect and appreciation for a teacher,
[13:11]then that'll improve students' experiences too.
[13:16]When you hear someone or see someone disparage teachers,
[13:19]which you can see every day on social media these days,
[13:23]speak up to support educators.
[13:26]We need more voices, we need louder voices
[13:28]and this sort of aggressive fringe
[13:31]that's attacking teachers right now, they're in the minority.
[13:34]It's just that too many of us are staying silent
[13:37]and we need to show teachers that our numbers are larger
[13:40]and that they really are appreciated and supported.
[13:44]We can also lobby for smaller classes
[13:46]and larger paychecks.
[13:47]Teachers deserve a far more money than they get
[13:50]and studies actually show that students' math
[13:53]and English scores are significantly higher
[13:56]in districts that pay teachers hire based salaries.
[14:00]At a local level, something that's easy to do,
[14:02]ask what supplies teachers need,
[14:04]whether you have kids in school or you can just go
[14:06]to the school and ask or call the school and ask,
[14:09]ask what they need and then buy it or fundraise
[14:12]or collect supplies.
[14:14]I'm doing an event at the end of March to give swag bags
[14:18]to teachers in the DC area for free
[14:21]and I've got some companies donating things
[14:23]but I also just asked, I've set up an Amazon list
[14:26]and I said to people like, hey, can you can trade me?
[14:30]And this is, so this is the overflow from my garage,
[14:33]let me see, so you see those stuff in the back there
[14:35]and that's just my whole garage is full
[14:38]but there's like, there's post-its there
[14:40]and papermaids and I got them chocolates too
[14:43]because you need chocolate and chapsticks and dice
[14:46]and fun socks and colors of the world
[14:49]pens like diverse colored pencils,
[14:50]diverse colored band-aids, it's so easy
[14:54]and just that little gesture can really lift a teacher
[14:57]to know that people are thinking of them.
[14:59]It's not enough just to say, I love my kids' teachers,
[15:02]they're awesome, that's great, that's super
[15:05]and you should tell the teacher that
[15:07]but we need to stand up for teachers
[15:09]on a broader, more visible level
[15:13]and show up to board meetings, lobby for teachers
[15:17]at this time when public education is under attack,
[15:20]pay attention to what your community's school board is doing,
[15:23]ask teachers how they feel about what the school board is doing
[15:27]and then testify publicly or email board members
[15:31]or start petitions or write open letters
[15:34]that people can sign on to supporting the teacher's stance.
[15:38]They need to see, teachers need to see
[15:40]that people are supporting them,
[15:41]that it's kind of a demoralized landscape for them right now.
[15:45]That's good, that those are not just your groceries
[15:47]in the background there, so you know.
[15:49]No, my groceries, I have horrible Zoom game,
[15:52]all my groceries, everything that's usually
[15:55]on the floor of my office is right behind that door.
[15:57]Like the hallway, you cannot get through the hallway,
[15:59]I just like, she wished everything back there.
[16:02]My, you know, my dad was on this kick for a while
[16:07]to try to get teachers to not have any income tax.
[16:12]I like that.
[16:14]Yeah, so if you want to take that up in that,
[16:16]I like that.
[16:17]Yeah, much traction on that,
[16:18]but he thought that would be a great way to solve the problem.
[16:22]That is a great way, that that would be helpful,
[16:24]that would be helpful for sure.
[16:26]And I went to college actually with Charles Best,
[16:28]who started Donors Choose.
[16:30]I don't know if you said so when I,
[16:31]you can see all the different classrooms
[16:34]and what those individual teachers need.
[16:36]And then you get letters back from the students,
[16:39]like, thank you so much for our books or whatever.
[16:41]So it's a nice, a nice way to do it as well.
[16:44]Can we go back to your love of fiction for a second?
[16:48]Sure.
[16:49]Tell me some of the books you've read lately
[16:51]or see your books of all time
[16:53]or anything that I know I don't want to put you on the spot
[16:56]again.
[16:57]Yeah, that works of all time.
[16:59]Okay, recently, house in the Cerulean Sea,
[17:03]loved that one, such a fun age,
[17:06]I loved that one, the invisible life of Addie LaRue.
[17:10]Going back a little bit, there's the Goldfinch,
[17:13]there's the art of fielding, I don't know.
[17:15]I could like, that could spend half an hour
[17:16]just listing some of my dreams.
[17:18]Everybody can go to my Goodreads and see what my,
[17:20]I don't, I don't rate books very often.
[17:22]I feel like as an author,
[17:24]if someone rates my books less than five stars,
[17:27]I'm like, oh no, what did I do wrong?
[17:30]So I usually only give books five stars
[17:33]or I don't rate them because I don't want to mess
[17:35]with their ratings.
[17:36]So if you look at my list and you see my five stars,
[17:38]I really, really like those books and recommend them.
[17:41]That's awesome, I love that.
[17:42]I'm going to check out your Goodreads
[17:43]and I am excited about what project are you working on next?
[17:48]There is no next.
[17:49]I am pausing writing books because teachers need help
[17:55]and it's not going to be solved with one book
[17:57]and it's not going to be solved this year.
[18:00]And so I want to focus on advocating
[18:03]at a national level for teachers
[18:06]and spreading awareness as to what they're going through
[18:09]and how we can help them and at a local level.
[18:12]I'm a sub, I'm a substitute teacher
[18:14]and that's the way that I help teachers here
[18:17]in the DC area.
[18:19]So for example, I wasn't supposed to sub
[18:22]until April after after my book launches
[18:26]but the teacher has a family emergency this week.
[18:28]So this week I'm doing fourth grade because they need me
[18:31]and if we don't step up to help teachers,
[18:34]then it will and you just want to help them
[18:37]every little bit that you can.
[18:38]And so I think that's more important to me
[18:40]right now than writing books.
[18:41]Yeah, that's awesome.
[18:42]Thank you, founder, calling.
[18:44]I do like subbing, it's fun.
[18:48]I didn't just mean the subbing.
[18:49]I just mean like, you know,
[18:51]your advocacy for the whole profession
[18:53]and how you can make just a change difference.
[18:55]It's really amazing.
[18:57]That's important.
[18:58]And teachers need more non-educator voices
[19:01]in the national dialogue to try and sway
[19:04]public support to where it should be, I think.
[19:06]And when you're not, you know, heavily reporting
[19:09]on different professions and reading fiction,
[19:13]what do you like to do?
[19:14]Oh, I'm outside.
[19:15]And you're free time.
[19:16]I'm outside.
[19:17]I am, I am playing sports or taking walks
[19:20]or outside reading.
[19:24]Reading.
[19:25]Awesome.
[19:26]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[19:28]Advice for aspiring authors.
[19:31]There's no, so okay.
[19:33]One is if you think you have writer's block,
[19:36]either take a walk or take a bath.
[19:38]There's never been a situation where
[19:41]whether it was stuck in a transition or an idea
[19:44]or a way to connect to different concepts
[19:47]where a bath or a shower than that would be bath
[19:50]or taking a walk didn't help.
[19:52]But also, if you feel you have writer's block
[19:55]right through it anyway and don't assume
[19:58]that just because you think
[20:00]What you write is bad that there's nothing in it worth salvaging because often, even if you write a page of something that you think is no good, there's probably going to be a kernel of something in there that'll spark you to write something good from that one kernel.
[20:14]And if there's something, if there's one article you've written that you think like everybody should go back and read or something that maybe people have missed and you're like, no, no, this should get more attention. What would that be?
[20:30]There was an article I wrote for the New York Times in March 2020 at the very beginning of the pandemic. So for moms who don't have time to read books, if you want to get a sense of how powerful a profession this is and why teachers stay in it despite the disrespect and how they felt about not the obligation, but the reason I don't want to spoil it, but the reasons they came to work anyway, even when.
[21:00]For example, surrounding cities were in full shelter in place, that would be an article that explains their perspective.
[21:09]Well, as soon as this comes out, this comes out, what March 14, seven. Yeah, pi day, pi day, like the one good day in March, March is one of the worst months for teachers because there are no breaks. So pi day is like the one day people celebrate even if they can't recite pi past 3.14 just because it's something in March to go.
[21:30]Yeah.
[21:31]Well, certainly beginning that to the teachers in our school. And I feel like even if listeners just pick up copies for all of their kids teachers, then that's, you know, and I can get a lot of features out there.
[21:43]So everybody listening pick up the teachers, Alexander Robbins give them to your teachers and start helping make a difference.
[21:51]Thank you so much.
[21:52]Well, thank you, Alexandra. It was so nice chatting with you and I'm going to go check out your Goodreads page right now.
[21:57]So take care. I'll friend you on Goodreads.
[22:00]Please do. Please do. Okay. Bye.
[22:04]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:08]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:13]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:20]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[22:24]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.