Amanda Pellegrino, THE SOCIAL CLIMBER: A Novel
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[1:03]Amanda Pellegrino is the author of the social climber, a novel.
[1:06]Amanda is a TV writer and novelist living in New York City.
[1:10]Most recently, she worked on Showtime's rest and who lose the looming tower.
[1:14]Her writing has appeared on batches, Refinery29, Bussle, Elite Daily, and others.
[1:19]Author of Smile and Look Pretty, the social climber is her sophomore novel, otherwise known
[1:24]as her second novel.
[1:25]Welcome Amanda.
[1:26]Thanks so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss the social
[1:29]climber.
[1:30]Thank you for having me.
[1:31]I feel like I need to preface this audio-based interview with the fact that I have a
[1:35]cold.
[1:36]Okay.
[1:37]Everybody.
[1:38]Amanda has a cold.
[1:39]This is not her normal voice.
[1:41]Thank you.
[1:42]I'm sorry you have a cold.
[1:44]It's going around.
[1:45]Yeah.
[1:46]It happens, I guess, after three years of not being sick.
[1:48]This is wow.
[1:49]Yeah.
[1:50]It happens.
[1:51]I have not gone three years that being sick, but that would be nice.
[1:54]Yeah.
[1:55]Great.
[1:56]Okay.
[1:57]The social climber.
[1:58]Tell everybody what it's about.
[2:01]So the social climber follows Eliza Bennett, the week of her wedding to Graham Walker,
[2:08]a like old money, 1% New Yorker, and throughout the week secrets from her past at her
[2:18]childhood and her time at like an evangelical mega church college, come to the surface
[2:26]that put her motives into question.
[2:30]Interesting.
[2:31]You know, it's so funny because I feel like all these, there's so many books about people
[2:36]like taking advantage of people on the upper east side.
[2:40]Mary, for the rug reasons, there's all these secrets I'm sitting here on the upper
[2:44]side today and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, does anybody just marry for love around
[2:48]here?
[2:49]I know it's so funny.
[2:50]I am also on the upper east side and I have the same, I walk around and I'm like, who
[2:55]is conning someone else?
[2:57]Yeah.
[2:58]Totally.
[2:59]Sure.
[3:00]Well, I'm glad you didn't since you have a cult, but anyway, that's true.
[3:04]So I love Eliza who is sort of obsessed with her body at the moment too and like making
[3:10]sure she can stay fit and trim and like a size two or something and like, you know, whatever.
[3:17]And you, in one of your opening scenes, you talk about her and a yoga class and you're
[3:22]like, why do people even have to warm up for yoga?
[3:26]Yup.
[3:27]Yup.
[3:28]Eliza is trying to literally like look the part and fit in and put all of her needs sort
[3:35]of aside in this pursuit of this one goal.
[3:38]Tell me a little bit about the sort of the body image piece of this puzzle.
[3:43]Sure.
[3:44]So I think a lot of, I think she has a really distinct image in her head based on, you
[3:52]know, she didn't grow up in this world.
[3:54]She didn't grow up anywhere near this world.
[3:57]And a lot of what she thinks is pretty or deserving of this lifestyle.
[4:05]She got from like magazines in the 90s and early 2000s.
[4:10]And she would go to the grocery store with her mom and steal them because her parents would
[4:16]never have let that in their house.
[4:18]And she would like stick them in her pants and read them in the dark.
[4:23]As I think, obviously during that time, there was a really misguided view of like what
[4:28]is pretty and it was very singular to.
[4:33]And so she based a lot of her lifestyle on those images.
[4:38]And you know, I also think so much happened to her and in this period of her life, everything
[4:46]is so calculated and so meticulous because she needs to fit in and every aspect.
[4:52]And so everything is planned and a lot of her, you know, eating disorders in the book
[4:59]come from like a sense of release and it's kind of the only moment she has to like take
[5:05]a deep breath and not think for, you know, four minutes or however long it's taking
[5:11]her and like really, yeah, just take a deep breath and not have everything in her life
[5:15]be so meticulously planned.
[5:17]So I think it comes from kind of both of those aspects.
[5:21]Yeah, you see her, you see her need for control with the whole vows column saying right
[5:27]at the front and how when she gets even what she wants, right, she's like dying for this
[5:33]that appear in near times vows column, which I feel like was a bigger deal like a little
[5:37]bit again.
[5:38]Yeah.
[5:39]Now it's not that maybe I shouldn't say that, but it was like the be all end all back
[5:44]in the day and now there are many outlets for this, let me just say it that way.
[5:48]But even though she got the message, she like intentionally holds off to like tempt fate,
[5:53]but also just so that she can have the ball in her court for a minute, you know, and
[5:58]it's so interesting, like just taking a moment like that and using it as a character,
[6:03]development piece.
[6:05]Really interesting.
[6:06]Yeah.
[6:07]I think she's trying to get as much control as she can because at any moment her bubble
[6:14]can pop and she can, you know, everyone can find out why she's there and what she's
[6:18]really doing.
[6:19]And so yeah, I think searching for any little tiny moments of control is really important
[6:25]to her.
[6:26]Yeah.
[6:27]I like searching for control too, but I feel like it's impossible.
[6:31]Well, it's only in fiction.
[6:35]So this is your second book.
[6:37]Tell me about how you even got your start writing and what you're a little more about your
[6:42]first book called the nine to five, which is like my favorite movie.
[6:45]Actually, we go to LA a lot and we brought our kids recently.
[6:49]And the last time we were there with them, we had been watching nine to five and we paused
[6:52]it.
[6:53]And so my daughter who's nine, she keeps being like, we have to go back to LA so we can
[6:56]finish the movie.
[6:57]And then we got there this weekend and she's like, wait, we have to finish nine to five.
[7:01]I know.
[7:02]It's so funny.
[7:03]I know.
[7:04]It's so funny.
[7:05]I know.
[7:06]I know.
[7:07]I know.
[7:08]I mean, she knows.
[7:09]She like does all the devices herself.
[7:10]I don't know.
[7:11]Anyway, okay.
[7:12]So tell me about your first book, tell me about who got into writing, how you got to this
[7:16]book, like the whole story.
[7:18]Yeah.
[7:19]So the social numbers, my second book, the smile and the pretty came out last year,
[7:24]last March, which was my first book about a group of assistants in like various versions
[7:30]of entertainment and media.
[7:32]You have really bad bosses and they start a website anonymously writing about their bosses
[7:38]that goes viral and women start submitting their stories about bad bosses.
[7:43]And so our four ladies have to like figure out how to keep their identities a secret so
[7:49]that they can keep their jobs with the bad bosses that they're writing about.
[7:52]Interesting.
[7:53]And, but I started, I mean, I wrote my first book when I was probably about eight years
[7:57]old.
[7:58]I've always wanted to write books forever, but I did have enough, I don't know where
[8:05]with all or for that to think, you know, you can't just be a novelist.
[8:09]You have to have a job until you start making money as a novelist.
[8:13]And so once I discovered that people write television too, which blew my mind, I think
[8:23]just you're not exposed like with books.
[8:26]You know, the first thing you see when you're holding a book is title author and like
[8:30]this person owns this thing.
[8:32]And you're not really exposed to that in the same way growing up with writing on television
[8:37]at least because, you know, they're given kind of the same credit as everyone else.
[8:41]You don't really think about it.
[8:43]And it blew my mind that people write for TV.
[8:45]So I was like, oh, that's what I need to do.
[8:47]So I started, I was a CBS page on Colbert and the CBS Saturday morning show.
[8:55]And then I was a production assistant for a bunch of shows.
[8:59]And then other versions of assistants were a really long time, which is kind of the typical
[9:05]path up until I finally got my first writing job.
[9:10]And it's been a grind, but, you know, moving forward ever since.
[9:15]So what did you end up writing for TV?
[9:18]I worked on a show called the looming tower, which was on Hulu.
[9:23]And then most recently a show called American Rest, which was on Showtime slash I think
[9:28]season one was on Showtime season two is on Amazon.
[9:32]So cool.
[9:33]And then when did you start writing the novel while you were working full time just like
[9:37]on the side?
[9:38]Yeah.
[9:39]Well, there's a lot of when you're an assistant, there's a lot of like periods of unemployment
[9:44]because like in between shows and between deciding if you're getting a second season or
[9:49]not.
[9:50]I did a lot of writing during those periods just because that's when you have the most
[9:53]time.
[9:54]But one of the reasons kind of the thing that really lit a fire under my ass is for to
[9:59]write.
[10:00]I don't look pretty was I was really tired of being an assistant and you need an agent to kind of do anything in the TV industry and getting an agent is like a supreme, in my opinion, example of like gatekeeping.
[10:19]No one knows how to do it.
[10:21]You have to know someone to know someone to get a TV agent.
[10:26]And so I was like, wait, fine, I'll just write a book and then agent that way and then like they all know each other.
[10:33]And it truly was like, I wrote the book so I think I wrote it in like a couple of months before I got and I like queried it way before I should have and it all worked out, I think goodness.
[10:47]But it was truly getting a book agent is a much more streamlined and they just tell you what they want. And if, and they read their slush pile and I was in the slush pile.
[10:58]And I, you know, got my agent he's like incredible and I love her so much and, and then because I got that agent I was able to kind of within the same agency ever get a finally a TV agent too.
[11:12]So it was all a little manipulated. Wow, writing a book just to write for TV. I like it.
[11:18]You know, you had all the time. That's really cool. Who is your agent by the way.
[11:22]Liz Parker at birth.
[11:24]And she was a wonderful. Yeah, like a talk about her forever.
[11:29]We could have had her own. She's so great.
[11:33]Oh, that's awesome.
[11:35]Okay, so I see where the topic. I see where the inspiration for the first one came from from your eight million assistant jobs.
[11:44]Which is great.
[11:45]What about where this particular idea came from for the social climber.
[11:50]Yeah.
[11:51]You know, I always wanted to write in the thrillery genre. That's what I like to read. And so I kind of always knew that was something that I wanted to write. I think I might have even mentioned it to my agent.
[12:02]Like our first call because style look pretty is very kind of women's fiction commercial fiction.
[12:10]But it felt like they always say that, you know, when you're querying your first book that it should be you should be the only one who could write it.
[12:18]And like you should tell people like why are you the only person who could write this book. And that's how I felt about smile and look pretty. Like I'm the only one who could write this.
[12:27]And it's the book that I needed to write to get the agent and get the book deal and get my foot in the door so that I could move on and start writing in the genre that I really love.
[12:38]And this book, you know, I was really, I really fascinated by religion and any form of extremist religion and, you know, anyone.
[12:52]It's just so interesting to me that one text if it's like the Bible or, I don't know, the Book of Mormon, like anything like that can be interpreted in like completely different ways.
[13:04]And one that is very mainstream. And then one that's really extreme.
[13:09]And so that always really fascinated me. And I knew I wanted to write about a character who grew up in that world.
[13:17]And then I was like, what is a really weird place that you can kind of plop someone into.
[13:25]And then I thought college because college at least to me is kind of like pseudo freedom, like the stakes aren't that high in terms of if you mess up like you're not really a real adult yet.
[13:40]But you do have your way from your parents and the rules are more lax, but you also have a support system around you in this school and in your roommates and in your friends.
[13:50]That's supposed to help you. And so I was so interested in dropping in a character who's never experienced any kind of freedom and who's desperate for it in a school that doesn't allow it.
[14:01]And then just to see how that, but heads and like what interesting things can come out of it. And then, you know, for the present day chapters.
[14:12]New York is just such a great place to write about the one percent.
[14:19]And I think that New York is such an ambitious town. And like, I know I do this all the time. I'm constantly walking down.
[14:29]Park Avenue or like East End Avenue and just looking into these apartments being like, wow, that must be so nice.
[14:35]And I love my apartment. And I love my life here, but it's so different than, you know.
[14:40]And so I think that that ambition and being in New York and like seeing one of those windows for someone like Eliza made sense to me and her being like, I'm going to get there actually like that's what I'm going to do.
[14:56]I'm not just going to look into the window. I'm going to get inside and be able to look out on everyone who's looking up at me.
[15:03]And so yeah, that's kind of where a lot of the inspiration came from in pieces until it all worked its way together.
[15:10]So how did you grow up? What was your where did you grow up and all that?
[15:15]I grew up in Queens and New York and I grew up.
[15:20]I'm not religious. I grew up Catholic. I didn't really follow it.
[15:25]But I did go to Catholic school through college, which is definitely just an interesting environment in general. It was kind of, it wasn't like an extremist school.
[15:37]But we definitely had rules that I think other schools probably didn't about like visitors in your dorm and stuff like that.
[15:46]But yeah, when I was at my book lunch.
[15:50]And I was like, you know, it was this from real life or, you know, did you imagine a lot of the story and my mom's like in the back of the room being like you imagined it tell everyone that you imagine like what do you do and has it's like everything comes from a version of real life.
[16:08]It's just like finding the emotional things you want to talk about.
[16:11]But yes, this wasn't my childhood at all.
[16:16]Yeah, what do you think about social climbing as a thing and to a woman like Eliza who decides she wants to get there and to do so by marrying up so to speak.
[16:30]Like what do you make of that and what do we think of that as like a feminist thing and like, you know, like where do you where do you where do you land on that?
[16:39]So it's so hard because there's I think it's really easy to be dismissive like social climbers as someone who is like handed things.
[16:49]But then I think it's also really hard to climb.
[16:55]And I think it's working hard in a different way.
[16:59]I do love you know something I loved about this book was that it does feel like a twist on the social climber trope because she's doing it for a very unselfish reason.
[17:14]And I did like that, you know, when the social climber wasn't the original title of the book. I was going to ask you that I was literally that was on the tip of my job.
[17:23]What was the original title original title was the night we met, which so far I'm over to and naming my own books both of them God names by my editors.
[17:34]And so, and then, you know, we went through some artwork for the night we met and tried some different things. But the general feedback was that it can skew a little romance, which this isn't at all.
[17:45]And so they wanted to readjust and I really didn't like the social climber title I fought back a lot against it and I kept three pitching different things and they kept saying like what about the social climber.
[18:00]And finally, in like a panicked call my agent was Parker was like why don't we tell them that we want to see the artwork with the title.
[18:10]And then you can make a decision because that makes like with a tagline and like that'll make a big difference.
[18:16]And then it came in and I was like oh my god I love it. I'm so sorry for the time I wasted doing you guys that it was horrible.
[18:24]With the tagline on the book and the woman and I think it helps establish that it's just not a book about like a vapid woman who wants to go to cool parties and you know live a life of luxury.
[18:41]And I thought I think that was important to me because her Eliza's character is someone who works incredibly hard.
[18:48]And it's for a very specific reason and I didn't want that to get lost in the concept of social climbing, but I think it lands well now.
[18:59]I have to say for people listening it's this very glamorous woman in this long red dress which is beautiful and like tan.
[19:08]Pat and leather heels and like a shin yawn to like a low bun with her perfect hair and like she looks like a model and like a lobby or living room of her house basically right with this really cool credenza.
[19:24]And like this gold mirror and like a little tree and it's just really cool it's a great like at the trees on the back a little bit anyway.
[19:33]And they did such a good job. So now that we know you can write a book in a couple months.
[19:39]What is your schedule now you're just going to try to crank one out every year is that your goal.
[19:45]Yeah, I do think that I had a bit of an advantage because this smile and look pretty.
[19:53]The update was delayed so much because of it sold in March 2020 it was supposed to.
[20:00]come out in June 2021, and then it got pushed because of COVID.
[20:03]And then December 21, and then it got pushed because of supply chain.
[20:07]Oh, no.
[20:08]March 2022.
[20:09]So I had written and handed in the first draft of the social
[20:14]climber before smile and look pretty, it even come out.
[20:17]Oh, wow.
[20:18]Which I do just think was because there was so much time.
[20:22]Like we were finished with the book months before it came out
[20:26]for a smile and look pretty.
[20:28]But so I do think that helped.
[20:30]I also think it helped with my mindset, which I didn't realize at
[20:33]first, but I think it's so easy when like being an author is a lifelong
[20:37]dream to put so much pressure on that debut.
[20:41]When in reality, like I want this to be a career.
[20:45]So like this book should just get you the next one, which
[20:48]should just get you the next book.
[20:50]And that is kind of what the general goal is versus like, this is
[20:54]the one I just want to kind of write forever.
[20:58]And so I think having my second book in my back pocket and like it had
[21:02]sold and I made money already.
[21:04]And like that all helps because if smile and look pretty tanked,
[21:09]which thankfully it didn't.
[21:10]But if it did, I at least was like, OK, I have another one.
[21:13]So don't worry about it.
[21:14]I can forget about that.
[21:15]And I have another one.
[21:16]So that felt really good.
[21:18]So it's definitely a different writing experience now, writing
[21:22]after the book comes out and not having to do like
[21:27]past pages while I'm working on the next book and stuff like that.
[21:30]But I am working on number three now, which has been really fun because
[21:35]Eliza is such a very specific character with a really strong and specific voice.
[21:40]And so it took me a little while to not write like her anymore
[21:44]because I feel like I heard her voice so clearly in my head for so long.
[21:48]So that was a bit of a practice in writing the first chapter of book three
[21:52]over and over again until it didn't just sound like Eliza.
[21:56]Oh, you could have done a continuation.
[21:57]There's that back out of it.
[21:58]I'll see you real.
[22:00]What's real?
[22:01]So that was a practice of patience.
[22:03]So I'll say.
[22:05]But now I finally kind of hit a stride in it, which feels really good.
[22:08]And I have a TV show and development right now, which has been like the most
[22:12]fun to work on.
[22:15]And then I have good feelings about the social climber's future.
[22:22]Okay.
[22:23]As I think all I can talk about.
[22:25]But yeah, very positive vibes, still that too.
[22:29]Amazing.
[22:30]Yeah, great.
[22:31]So much exciting stuff.
[22:32]I love it.
[22:33]Yeah, a good start to 2023, which is nice.
[22:37]So when you're not writing and reading thrillers, I guess, and writing for TV,
[22:43]what do you like to do, especially here in New York?
[22:45]Like, where do you like to go and restaurants or what do you like to do for fun or whatever?
[22:50]I'm a big runner.
[22:52]Okay.
[22:53]I've run two New York marathons.
[22:55]Wow.
[22:56]That's an adventure.
[22:57]Yeah, it's been really fun.
[22:59]But I found I'll shout out to the Upper East Side Run Club, which is
[23:04]everyone's day is where I am.
[23:06]It's running.
[23:08]It's been like really fun, especially it's just I find it to be such a fun way to like explore
[23:12]any city, but especially like a walkable city like New York and Eliza runs a lot in the book
[23:19]and it has a very similar running route to me.
[23:21]Okay, but I love going to New restaurants.
[23:25]I feel like post COVID.
[23:26]There's been a real resurgence of new restaurants and newly branded restaurants post COVID,
[23:34]which has been really fun to explore, especially in the Upper East Side I've lived here for
[23:37]almost seven years now.
[23:39]And so it's been fun to see how the neighborhoods changed and, you know, go to like
[23:45]restaurants that used to be a diner, like, you know, speak easy is that used to be subway platforms
[23:50]and fun.
[23:53]But yeah, I love living here.
[23:55]I feel like there's an endless possibility of things to do.
[23:57]And if you're ever bored, it's your own fault.
[24:01]Wow.
[24:01]Okay, I'll tell that to my kid.
[24:03]Amazing.
[24:07]Okay, any parting advice for aspiring authors?
[24:11]I guess I'll say, actually, and my normal thing is always just like right every day,
[24:16]which is like the stupidest piece of advice because everybody gives it.
[24:20]Also, I do good if it's helpful to you.
[24:22]I mean, but okay, but fine.
[24:24]But I also will say something that I learned when writing the social climber.
[24:28]I wrote most of the book when I was on set in Pittsburgh for a show that I was working on.
[24:35]And it was really hard because, you know, being on set, it's like a 14 hour day.
[24:41]You know, that's like a writer produced, you don't have like a desk, so you're kind of moving
[24:46]around constantly depending on the day and what's seen you're shooting.
[24:50]And it was really just finding any kind of 15 minutes I could find whether it's like between
[24:56]camera setups or at lunch or like in my car, I would get to set early and sit in my car for
[25:02]a half an hour and work. And it really taught me the importance of not relying too much on anything
[25:11]external to make writing productive. Like it's important to not feel like you need to be in the
[25:19]perfect chair with the perfect pillow and the perfect, you know, a candle and flowers and all of
[25:24]this stuff in order to create a vibe, which it was hard to get used to. But I, it was a very
[25:32]helpful learning experience for me. It was like sometimes you just have to sit down and write on
[25:38]the curb of a street in Pittsburgh for 20 minutes. That's awesome. Shout out to Pittsburgh.
[25:49]Yup, herbs. A lot of them. Awesome. Well, thanks Amanda. I was really great to meet you and maybe
[25:58]I'll see you. I will not probably be running anymore. I was going to say I could see in the park,
[26:03]but I probably won't. But anyway, thank you so much for having me. And congratulations on the weekend.
[26:09]It was looked like fun. It was so much fun. I can't stop thinking about it. I'm like walking my dog
[26:17]in the rain. And I'm like, that was so nice. Yes, I know it looked beautiful. And like it was just
[26:22]such a huge crowd and one incredible authors you had coming and signing and so cool. Congratulations.
[26:29]Thank you. So like it was a dream now back to regular. Anyway, all right. Thanks so much.
[26:36]Great to meet you. Thank you so much. You took it. Take care. Bye bye.
[26:41]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:44]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[26:49]Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[26:54]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back
[26:58]texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[27:03]this fantastic intro and out trim music.