Mary Kubica, JUST THE NICEST COUPLE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
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[1:04]Mary Kubica is the author of just the nicest couple.
[1:07]Mary is a New York Times bestselling author of thrillers, including The Good Girl,
[1:10]The Other Misses, and Local Woman Missing.
[1:13]Her books have been translated into over 30 languages and have sold over 2 million copies
[1:17]worldwide.
[1:18]She's been described as quote, a hell of a storyteller, by Kirkus, and quote, a writer of
[1:22]vice-like control, Chicago Tribune.
[1:25]And her novels have been praised as hypnotic by people and illuminating LA times.
[1:30]She lives outside of Chicago with her husband and children.
[1:33]Welcome, Mary.
[1:34]Thank you so much for coming on Moms.
[1:35]Don't have time to read books to discuss just the nicest couple.
[1:39]Thank you for having me.
[1:40]I'm so excited to be here.
[1:41]Oh, yay.
[1:42]Could you please tell us, Nurs, what just the nicest couple is about?
[1:47]Yeah, absolutely.
[1:48]Just the nicest couple is actually about two different couples who are really quite different.
[1:53]We have Lily and Christian first, who are just kind of like, you're perfect couple.
[1:58]They're happily married very much in love.
[2:00]They're expecting their first child, so they're just really optimistic about their future
[2:04]and they're in a good place.
[2:06]The other couple, Nina and Jake, are quite different.
[2:09]Their marriage is just really at odds.
[2:12]They're constantly putting heads.
[2:13]There's just a lot of animosity in the marriage.
[2:16]Jake works as a neurosurgeon, so he has these incredibly long stressful hours.
[2:20]Nina works as a teacher, but she's also taking care of her mother, who is getting older
[2:25]and has some health issues, one of which is that she's slowly losing her vision.
[2:29]She just requires more help from all the time, which also creates some tension and
[2:35]bad feelings in the marriage, because Jake is a little resentful for the amount of time
[2:40]that Nina spends with her mother.
[2:43]They're not in such a good place, and then one night Jake, this neurosurgeon, doesn't come
[2:47]home from work.
[2:48]Nina is a first sure that it has something to do with a big argument they have the
[2:52]night before.
[2:54]She thinks he's gone to a friend's house or hotel and he's just blowing off steam and
[2:58]will come back in a day or two.
[3:00]Then time passes and something's happened in there that make her realize something bad
[3:05]has actually happened to him.
[3:06]He's not just somewhere blowing off steam.
[3:09]At the same time, this other woman, Lily, she knows that she was the last to see Jake
[3:13]before he went missing.
[3:14]She tells her own husband, Christian, what happens, and that two of them decide that
[3:18]they will do anything to keep the truth from coming out.
[3:21]It's really a cat and mouse game of one woman who's desperate to find her missing husband
[3:25]and another couple who will do anything to stop that from happening.
[3:29]Wow.
[3:30]Excellent elevator pitch.
[3:31]Way to go.
[3:32]That's great.
[3:33]All right.
[3:34]Well, I have to say as I told you before and I won't say anything, but I read the whole
[3:38]book and I got drawn in right away all the different characters points of view.
[3:44]I feel like I was immediately rooting for sort of everybody at the same time and wanting
[3:49]to see how everybody was connected and then being surprised and, oh, look at that.
[3:56]I am the most gullible thriller reader ever.
[4:00]Anyway, I was trying to analyze what it was, why could I not put this book down?
[4:07]Was it the desire to figure out the end?
[4:11]Was it rooting for everyone?
[4:13]I don't know.
[4:14]Tell me how you put it together.
[4:15]How did you end Europe pro at this, obviously?
[4:17]Like how do you construct each one of your stories to have that effect?
[4:23]So I don't plot anything out.
[4:27]So I go into it having no idea really who my characters are or how the story is going
[4:32]to develop and almost never do I know my twist when I start writing.
[4:36]That's something that comes midway through the writing process.
[4:39]I think that I just need that time to get to know my characters and kind of figure out
[4:43]what is going on in this story and take a look at everybody's backstory and what brought
[4:49]them to this point in time and so what might motivate them to have an impact on that final
[4:55]twist.
[4:56]So I just start writing.
[4:57]I always start my books with sort of problem, something that needs solving and in this
[5:02]case we have this missing man.
[5:05]So the next question I always ask myself is who's going to tell this story?
[5:09]Because all of my books so far have had multiple narrators, which I love doing because
[5:13]I think that it just provides, you know, some more insight for one into more than one
[5:18]character's heads, you know, as a reader, you kind of get a more comprehensive view
[5:22]of the story.
[5:23]But I think it also brings some more questions because you don't know if you can trust
[5:27]all these narrators equally or if maybe somebody is, you know, intentionally misleading
[5:32]you or unintentionally misleading you.
[5:34]So you have to kind of, you know, piece through that information as a reader that you're
[5:38]being given.
[5:39]So then I do something different that I don't think most authors do.
[5:42]But for as much as I can, I actually try to write one of these narrator stories from
[5:46]beginning to end at a time.
[5:48]So in this book, we have two narrators, we have Christian and Nina.
[5:52]So I started with Christian storyline and it was a little bit more difficult with this
[5:56]book as opposed to some of my other books because what is happening in one storyline
[6:00]really mirrors for, you know, from chapter to chapter, they really play off of each other.
[6:06]So it was a little more difficult, but I wrote Christian from beginning, you know, like
[6:10]halfway into the book as far as I could go until I got to a point where I really felt
[6:14]like I needed to step back and start interspersing Nina's story in there.
[6:19]But I just feel like I get to know my characters a little bit more thoroughly this
[6:22]week because I can spend a little bit more time with them instead of just like bouncing
[6:26]back from chapter to chapter.
[6:29]And I don't know.
[6:30]I think that as a reader, I know that's one of those things that keeps me invested is
[6:34]when I really feel like I know the character and I have some sort of connection to them
[6:38]and so as a writer, that's something that I'm aware of and really try to do with my
[6:42]characters.
[6:43]Interesting.
[6:44]I like it.
[6:45]So Jake has this command of the medical language.
[6:49]Did you do research, who do you talk to doctors, you married to, I don't know, where's
[6:54]the doctor coming from?
[6:56]I definitely did some research.
[6:58]I am not married to a doctor, but I didn't much research really just online reading
[7:04]as I could.
[7:05]A lot of things that delve in some more serious stuff like neurosurgery in the case
[7:11]of this book.
[7:12]I give as much information as I feel comfortable, like as I feel like I can without getting
[7:17]too, too much into it because it's definitely nothing that I have any expertise in.
[7:21]So, you know, like I said, I did some research, I talked to it enough to be able to get
[7:26]a feel for Jake's character and what he does and maybe a little bit about him himself.
[7:32]I think that just hearing some of the passages, you get the feel that he is very smart,
[7:37]maybe a little cold, but you know, you can pick up a little bit on his bedside manner
[7:41]and hearing some conversation about him.
[7:43]So I sort of just use that to create his character and then stop when he got, you know,
[7:49]beyond my abilities.
[7:53]The park plays a big role in this and it feels very visual, like I can see where the different
[7:59]parking entrances are and the different paths and this and that and like how it even
[8:04]walks by, you know, curses by the house and just, I don't know.
[8:08]Is this a real place?
[8:09]Did you make this up?
[8:10]It felt very, very real to me.
[8:12]It's a real place.
[8:13]So it's not, it's, I mean, the suburbs of Chicago and so I maddleds, lingley woods after
[8:18]a place called waterfall blend.
[8:19]So if anybody is, you know, from the suburbs of Chicago, it's based on waterfall
[8:24]blend.
[8:25]I change street names and stuff like that, but, you know, the layout, even like the layout
[8:28]of the parking lots is all the same.
[8:30]It's an area that I like to go to run or walk and it's, it's a beautiful path.
[8:35]For the most part, it's not as scary as I kind of make it out to be in this book.
[8:40]You know, you go on a Saturday morning and there are a lot of people there.
[8:43]So you're not really, as alone, you know, as I make it out to be in the book, but there
[8:47]are definitely paths that wander off the main path, which would be much more hidden from
[8:53]the main trail.
[8:54]Interesting.
[8:56]There's one piece of everybody's narrative, which is this moment of weight.
[9:01]Maybe things aren't what they seemed like, wait a second.
[9:05]And like looking at something very familiar and questioning things and then doing that
[9:11]thing where you have to go back in life and like sort of rewrite what you thought all along.
[9:17]Tell me about that moment and it's like this combination of fear and confusion and, you
[9:24]know, it puts the reader very ill it is as it does the character.
[9:29]I think we all have those moments and that's one of the things with all of my books that
[9:33]I like to draw on.
[9:34]You know, I feel like these characters and their experiences are not that different than
[9:39]our own.
[9:40]You know, I mean, obviously they're experiencing like their worst days in this book, but
[9:44]I like things to be really relatable and I think that, you know, we all have something
[9:49]happens, you know, and our emotions are like skewed I think because of the way we feel
[9:55]about it and then, especially over time, some of those things start to change and.
[10:00]of fade. And so when we look back on things and retrospect, we might have different memories
[10:04]of the way that it happens. And I think that that's just something that we experience
[10:09]all the time. You know, and I mean, you they always say that if somebody witnesses an
[10:13]accident, a car crash, something like that, all the witnesses are going to kind of see
[10:17]a little bit something different based on, you know, where they were, how their memory is,
[10:21]what emotions they bring to that situation with them. And so that's just one of those
[10:26]like truths that I like to bring to my books to because I think that it's something
[10:30]that we can all relate to on some level. Interesting. So take me back to you as a kid.
[10:37]You're a big reader. Are you like plot it? Give me the visual here and how you got
[10:43]to hear. Yeah. So a big reader. I love to read. We didn't have a bookstore in my town, but
[10:49]we had the library. And so I would go whenever I could. I would just check out as many
[10:53]books as I could carry home and just anything. You know, I love fiction. But I loved
[10:58]nonfiction too. Just whatever whatever it was that I was interested in at the time, I would
[11:02]go and just gather up as many books as I could carry and go home with them and stay
[11:06]up way past my bedtime reading. And so I just love to read. But I like to write too.
[11:11]But writing was really private for me. Like the idea of wanting to write books for other
[11:15]people to read was totally beyond to me. But it was just one of those things that, you
[11:19]know, I did to pass the time. I would come home from school. And I was had some sort
[11:24]of story that I was working on. And it was really, you know, now, now that it looked
[11:28]back on it, it was, I mean, really, I think like just an extension of myself, you know,
[11:32]I'd create a character that was a little bit like myself. But more adventurous, you
[11:36]know, more outgoing. And I kind of live vicariously through her. And, you know, for as much
[11:40]as I loved to write, I just knew that that wasn't or I thought at that time that that
[11:44]wasn't anything I was ever going to want to pursue professionally. So I was actually a high
[11:48]school history teacher for a number of years. But, you know, in the summer or after
[11:52]school or on the weekends, just whenever I had time, I was always writing. And then
[11:58]back in 2005, my daughter was born. And I left teaching for a while. I thought it would
[12:02]be temporary. But I left teaching to start my family. And it was then when my daughter was
[12:07]home, she was like weeks old, which now in retrospect, I have no idea how I did this.
[12:12]But I got the ideas for my first published book, The Good Girl. And so whenever I could,
[12:17]she was napping or just content, I would get on the laptop and start writing. And with that
[12:22]book, you know, something just to collect, you know, I just, I fell in love with these characters.
[12:27]And we, I just hadn't loved any characters that I had created before that time. And it was
[12:31]the first time in my life that I thought I want to finish this. And I want to do something with it.
[12:36]Or I want to try to do something with it. And of course, I had no idea what would become of it.
[12:40]But I just, I felt like compelled to try. I thought that I owed it to myself. I owed it to this
[12:45]book just to see what could happen. So it took five years to write the book. And then when I
[12:49]was done, you know, I had no idea what to do with it. I was never part of a writer's group.
[12:54]I had studied education in college. I hadn't even taken a single creative writing class.
[12:59]I didn't know any author. So I just, you know, got on the internet and started researching and
[13:04]came up with a list of the writer, the book, the writer's market. And which has literary agents
[13:10]since I went through the book and just started finding all these literary agents that represented
[13:14]the kind of book I thought I had written. And I was not selective. I mean, anybody that, you
[13:19]know, represented the spends, I just, I sent out like a hundred query letters. And at this point,
[13:24]I had written the book totally in secrecy. Like my husband knew it existed, but I wouldn't let him
[13:29]read it. And nobody else knew it existed. So like, I didn't even have a friend proofread this
[13:34]manuscript for, you know, commas before I started sending it out to these agents. And sure enough,
[13:40]like the rejections started coming in right away. And there were ultimately three agents that
[13:45]asked to read the whole book, but then those three passed. And so every single agent that read
[13:50]the good girl passed on it. And, you know, I just thought, well, that's that, you know, the book's
[13:55]never going to be published. And I kept writing, you know, I would love to say that if I never sold
[14:00]one book, I would still be here writing because it's just one of those things I've loved so much.
[14:04]But two years after all those rejections, one of the agents reached back out to me.
[14:09]And it just so happened that when she first read the good girl, she was brand new to this
[14:13]literary agency right out of college. She had gone through the slush pile and found the good girl,
[14:19]took it home and read it and loved it. But she was working as someone's assistant and not in a
[14:24]position to represent it herself and her team decided to pass. So she had to pass, you know, on their behalf,
[14:29]well, within those next two years, she was promoted. And now she was a literary agent,
[14:34]and she could represent her own books. So she reached back out to see if it was available.
[14:38]And I mean, it was just, it was a dream come true. So I'm always telling people, you know, any,
[14:43]any aspiring writers out there that are having trouble that I was, it was one person away from
[14:48]this never happening. So, you know, so much of it is about timing and just finding that one person
[14:53]that's as passionate about your work as you are. That's crazy. So is now this agent like
[14:58]running the whole agency basically? She should be, right? Yeah. That's amazing. And then what
[15:06]was the process of selling it like? So then she went out, you know, and I still at this point,
[15:11]I had never told anybody that I wrote. And how many years ago, how many years ago is this now?
[15:16]So I found her in 2010 and, all right, I should say a query to her in 2010, she reached back out
[15:23]in 2012 and the book was published in 2014. So she went out with it and it was sort of,
[15:29]you know, initially there was a lot of nose and I was nervous, you know, because just because I had
[15:33]the agent didn't mean we were ever going to sell the book. But ultimately I did get two
[15:37]offers and was able to speak with both of these editors on the phone. And I, you know, signed
[15:43]down with Erica and Ronnie who was still my editor eight books later. Oh my gosh. And you're with
[15:49]Park Rock, eight books later. So tell me about the success of the first book and what that felt
[15:55]like after this long road to get there. It was, I mean, it was unbelievably exciting. You know,
[15:59]my expectations were low. I had no idea. You know, I thought, well, you know, my family and friends
[16:04]will buy a copy and maybe that's it. I didn't know. I didn't know, you know, if readers were going to
[16:10]how they were going to feel about it. I mean, it takes a lot to put that book out there.
[16:14]You know, I think that the first time I walked into a bookstore and saw it on the shelf,
[16:17]I just wanted to like grab them all and take them back open. And I was so nervous. But the,
[16:23]the feedback, you know, and it was kind of in the months leading up to the books release that I
[16:27]could tell things were all going in the right direction. And I knew my publisher was 110% behind
[16:33]this book. And I, you know, saw the early reviews coming in. And they were very positive and
[16:38]it got a start review from publishers weekly. And so I just knew that everything was kind of
[16:42]moving in the right direction. So it was just beyond my wildest dreams. Oh my gosh.
[16:47]And now you've just been doing it over and over again. So what is your pacing? I could do the
[16:52]math. You're basically doing one a year almost, right? I am. Yes, I've slowed down a little bit in
[16:57]the last couple of years to more like 15-ish months. You know, and I think just the more books you
[17:02]write, then it's like you're trying to, you're trying to compete with yourself. You're trying to
[17:06]do yourself. And so to make sure I could do that and come up with new twists and, you know,
[17:10]totally original characters. I wanted a little bit more time in there. So I've slowed down just a
[17:15]a little bit. COVID set me back a little bit. I found that a really hard time to write. Just
[17:19]my, you know, brain was not where I needed it to be in my creativity. But yeah, so for the most
[17:25]part, I get a solid draft on in a little bit less than a year, maybe nine to 10 months. And then
[17:30]my editor and I'll go back and forth for a little while on revisions. So with just the nicest couple,
[17:36]what was the first piece of this that came to you? You know, I loved the idea of a missing husband.
[17:43]I think that we just, we hear so many stories or we read, you know, in fiction and on the news
[17:48]about missing women and missing wives. And I myself have written books about missing women.
[17:52]But, you know, I feel like we don't really hear it about the missing man. And so I wanted to sort
[17:57]of examine that and see is the story ultimately the same or is it a little bit different, you know?
[18:02]And so those were some of the things that I explored, like, you know, when Jake first goes missing
[18:07]for one, you know, his wife doubts that he's missing and that he isn't just blowing off steam.
[18:11]And then even when she does go to the police to get some help, the first thought is, you know,
[18:15]well, maybe he's just left you. You know, so it takes some time for people to really take her seriously.
[18:20]Oh my gosh. It's hard interviewing thriller writers because I really want to talk to you about
[18:24]all the things that happened. But then I don't want to give all this away. I also say it was very
[18:27]exciting. And I just feel like you really got me in there, like in the hallways of the school and,
[18:35]you know, in the houses and, you know, in the park and just transported. So that was fun.
[18:42]Thank you. That means a lot because that's what I want to do. You know, that's the goal and you
[18:46]never know if you're, I think as a writer, you get so close to the book that you're never
[18:50]know if, like, it's going to affect the reader the same way that it affects you. So it really
[18:54]means a lot when I hear that you had their reactions in the book. Awesome. So are you reading
[19:01]anything amazing right now? Yeah. So I just, I get, I'm sure you do too. I know you do. But I
[19:06]get some early copies of books. So I just finished just yesterday. Ashley Winstead has a new one
[19:12]called Midnight as the darkest hour, which comes out in October and was so, so good. I absolutely
[19:17]loved that one. And then I'm just about to start Riley Sager's newest, which comes out this summer
[19:23]sometime. So I'm a big fan of his and I'm very excited to read that. I have to say, I feel like
[19:28]this thriller writing community is such, it's such a tight knit group. I feel like you all know
[19:34]each other and thriller fest. And how does that have? And are you all in the same Facebook group? You
[19:39]have a mailing list? Like you all seem to be blurbing each other and getting to know each other
[19:44]and panels together. Tell me about it. There, I mean, honestly, like they're the warmest human
[19:49]beings. I think I've ever met. And I think it surprised me for when I just, you know, I didn't know
[19:54]when I first got started writing, I had no social media presence at all. You know, and my editor
[19:59]had to give me a
[20:00]a big boost to like get on Facebook and you know it's start connecting with people and
[20:04]and no idea what to expect from other writers like would there be a lot of competition between
[20:09]writers and the thriller community has been so warm and welcoming and I think it's it's kind
[20:14]of ironic because of course we're writing really dark and twisty stuff but I mean just because
[20:20]you read my book doesn't mean you're not going to go read Riley's sake or whatever you know
[20:23]so there doesn't have to be that competition and instead it's just been really amazing to see the
[20:29]way that everybody is so supportive you know both online you know just really shouting each
[20:34]other's works out for for everybody to read but also behind the scenes too you know there's a
[20:39]lot of emails and zooms and you have direct messages and stuff just offering encouragement to the
[20:44]one and all there anything because writing is you know we don't we don't have co-workers that we
[20:48]get to see at an everyday basis so I think to have that connection with other authors who really
[20:53]get it you know the isolation or what it feels like to get that nasty review and things like that it's
[20:58]it's such a big help amazing okay what's the next book so I'm working on I'm so close to
[21:05]to finish the next one I'm so excited I don't do a working title or anything so I just book nine
[21:11]and I don't have a perfected elevator pitch here but it's about a woman and I see you nurse
[21:16]who gets a patient who jumped from a bridge and she the woman isn't conscious and as the
[21:22]nice to you nurse she gets to know the patient's family and people who come to visit but over time
[21:28]it comes out that the woman was not she did not jump but she was actually pushed so now this nurse
[21:34]does not know you know who of this woman's loved one she can trust and these ideas just keep
[21:40]coming to you they're just like it's like a spout they feed on each other not going well you know
[21:45]I hear other authors talk about you know they have like notebooks of ideas I don't have that you know
[21:51]there's always that moment moment of panic after I finish one book like will I think of something new
[21:56]but eventually they they do come and there have been periods where I might go you know
[22:01]weeks or a month without an idea or I get an idea and I start writing and I realize that it doesn't
[22:06]have legs and it's not gonna work out so there there are definitely bumps along the road but I'm
[22:11]always so grateful you know when I get a new idea and just really get into the writing and
[22:15]know that I can see it through awesome well Mary thank you so much like what are you going to do
[22:20]now how often how long are you going to write today like what's the plan how like what is your
[22:24]typical day well I'm like an early morning writer so I have to say it's like almost 10 o'clock
[22:30]year in Chicago and I've probably already written a good like three hours I was I did the alarm for
[22:35]5 a.m but I had like some days I'm not the best sleeper so some days I'm up at like for writing
[22:41]and I don't know why but that is my favorite time in the world to write the idea is just flow
[22:45]so much better at 4 a.m then it like noon it's I can't explain it but but I am so close to the
[22:51]end of a draft that I'm just like I'm gonna get back to it and I'm gonna write until I have to get
[22:55]the kids from school because I'm ready to to be done oh my gosh how old are your kids now
[23:00]you're 15 and 17 you're getting pretty old I have my oldest start twins they're 15 and a half
[23:07]actually probably closer to 16 now yeah crazyness yeah it's a funny but I mean that time they
[23:13]tell you you know that it goes by in the blink of an eye and it sure does and I think the older
[23:17]they get the faster I guess they're just so busy all the time yeah very true well amazing two kids
[23:26]eight books I mean very productive for you and you I'm always so impressed with
[23:33]everything that you're doing yeah yeah excited I'm jealous of your early morning productivity
[23:40]I I feel like I never like to write in the morning I'm like email or read like I like to read
[23:46]early in the morning but um but I can't sleep but I don't know I can't do it but anyway well it's
[23:52]delightful meeting you fully I'll see you at some point I want to come to Chicago I've been there
[23:56]in so long so I want to do like a Chicago tour with one of our authors or I don't know something
[24:01]but I'd love to meet up in person yeah I would love that I would absolutely love that
[24:05]thank you so much for having me on today and for all your support for the book no problem
[24:09]all right take care bye bye thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read
[24:15]books don't forget to follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books
[24:21]also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[24:26]of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the
[24:31]sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro
[24:35]and now trim music