Jojo Moyes, SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOES: A Novel

2023-02-08 · 29:32 · Jojo Moyes · Podcast Audio

[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.

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[0:58]Joja Mois is the author of Someone Else's Shoes, a novel.

[1:01]She is the number one New York Times best-selling author of The Giver of Stars, still me, Paris for One, and other stories.

[1:08]After you, one plus one, The Girl You Left Behind, me before you, which by the way is one of my favorite books,

[1:14]The Last Letter from Your Lover, The Horse Tancer, Night Music, Silver Bay, The Ship of Bries, and The Peacock in Portium.

[1:20]Also a screenwriter, JoJo lives in London, England.

[1:23]Alright, welcome, JoJo. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's End of Time to read books to discuss Someone Else's Shoes, your latest novel.

[1:30]Thank you for having me.

[1:32]Oh, I've been a fan of yours for so long, like everyone in the world.

[1:36]I read me before you and cried my way through and watched the movie and followed all of your books and everything.

[1:43]So this is a huge joy for me.

[1:45]So thanks.

[1:46]Oh, that's so lovely to hear.

[1:47]Thank you so much.

[1:48]I've been out of the loop for about three and a half years.

[1:51]So it's a nice reminder that people actually do read the things that I did.

[1:55]No, absolutely.

[1:57]I was so excited when I say you had a new backout and couldn't wait to gobble it up.

[2:01]So, thank you.

[2:03]Can you tell listeners why someone else's shoes is about?

[2:07]Yeah, it's a book about two women who are very different, who are at very different points in their lives.

[2:14]One is a wealthy American married to a very wealthy and probably quite selfish man who has just discovered that he plans to divorce her.

[2:23]The other woman is a rather downtrodden midlife woman whose husband is depressed, whose bosses are bit of a bully.

[2:31]And she's just in England, we call it the squeeze middle.

[2:34]She's a woman who's trying to cope with the demands of fractious elderly parents and her daughter and work and juggling.

[2:43]and just struggling to keep on top of it all.

[2:46]Well, I have to say, we were just talking about another book about divorce before we started.

[2:51]But in terms of divorce, this is pretty mean.

[2:53]I mean, this is aggressive.

[2:55]Aggressive dream.

[2:56]I feel like my heart broke when Nish was at the divorce lawyer trying to make sense of how unfair the treatment was from this sort of comfort.

[3:04]I had a couple of dinners with a very serious divorce lawyer over here.

[3:11]And she told me the many ways in which very wealthy people basically divorce usually the wife and the games that they play.

[3:20]And it was horrifying.

[3:22]I mean, the stories I heard what I've actually written is not as bad as some of the things she told me because I thought you would consider them unbelievable.

[3:30]But for example, in one case, a man had brought in his wife of 35 years and got her to agree to a prener or a kind of post nut prenup, in which case she agreed if they ever split up to receive a bag of sugar, a kilo bag of sugar.

[3:49]And she agreed, and you're just thinking, what is the thinking here?

[3:56]And the divorce lawyer said, you know, I knew what was probably going to happen down the line.

[4:01]But if this woman agrees to it, all I can do is advise her, but I can't stop him doing it.

[4:08]Yeah, and stories of men who if they lose what they consider to be a hefty amount, they just pursue the courts to pursue it through the courts globally until nobody has any money left because they just cannot be seen to lose.

[4:25]Even even his own money, they keep you willing to go bankrupt just to.

[4:29]Yeah, because a lot of these high net worth men, especially it's about winning and losing their whole lives are about winning and losing and they cannot bear to be seen to lose.

[4:39]So Carl Cantor, my, my male lead in this story, is one of those guys. Wow, rather unsavory.

[4:48]Yeah, I mean, everybody else is pretty nuanced, but he's just an out and out bad guy and the thing is, I heard so many of these stories.

[4:57]And my editor said to me at one point, is he just too bad and I said, honestly, compared to the stories I've heard, not really.

[5:04]Yeah, gosh. Is that where the idea even came from or was that research that you did once you had the idea for that was research.

[5:12]The idea originally came from a short story I wrote about 15 years ago, just about a rather downtrodden woman picking up the wrong gym bag and how it changed her day.

[5:23]And I'd been asked about this story in Hollywood a few times by different production companies who wanted to know if I could do anything with that story because it just seemed to be something that appealed to people.

[5:35]And I could never see it. And then a couple of years ago, I kind of woke up thinking about that story and I thought, well, what happened to the woman whose bag was taken, the woman who owned the fancy shoes.

[5:48]And as I saw it as a story of two women whose lives intersect. I saw it like vanity fair or, you know, have you seen the film desperately seeking Susan, but one of my favorites.

[6:00]Yeah, mine too. I just watched it again the other night and it was so good. And so I just wanted it to be a story of ups and downs and crisscrosses and much more of a fast than my normal books.

[6:12]And it's so funny. I remember my grandparents didn't want to let me see that movie in the theater because I was staying with them for the weekend when it came out.

[6:20]I was like, no, it is so important. Like I have to see Madonna's movie. This is amazing. It's her acting debut. Anyway, my gosh, I remember like it was yesterday. Anyway, crazy.

[6:30]So it came from a short story. But go back to what you said originally, which is you took this three and a half year break off. What was that about?

[6:37]Well, I have worked around the clock for about 10 years, which I have loved, but ever since the success of me before you. I kind of said yes to almost everything I was offered.

[6:48]Partly because I had been an unsuccessful novelist for 10 years before that. I mean, my books got published, but I never once charted. I never made it into the best sellers list.

[6:58]So when you finally get the big one, if you're lucky enough to get the big one, I just felt obliged to work harder and capitalize on that.

[7:06]And I did that for, I don't know, about eight, eight, nine years. And because I started working in movies as well, I would start work writing books early in the morning.

[7:16]And then often I would hit LA time at my tea time and then I would work into the evening.

[7:23]And I was touring a lot, especially in the States, because I love it, but be because it's important and it builds your readership if you actually meet people.

[7:33]I think I lost track of my work life balance pretty spectacularly and I hit a number of things in my personal life. My marriage of 22 years started to fall apart.

[7:46]My mother was very ill and diagnosed with a terminal illness. And I just two of my kids were leaving home and suddenly I just thought I can't keep on at this pace. I can't manage everything.

[7:59]You know, typical 40 something woman at the time just trying to juggle everything and realizing that it was starting to crumble around me.

[8:07]So I gave myself a year's sabbatical.

[8:10]I decided that I would take 2020 off and see my friends and travel and regain a work life balance and we had a pandemic.

[8:20]So basically in that one year I got divorced. My mom died and we had a pandemic. And so I didn't work for a year, but it was not for the slightly joyful reasons that I'd planned.

[8:31]It was just really a time of taking stock and getting through and looking after my family.

[8:38]And I'm so sorry about your loss. Do you feel that coming back to it? Do you have this renewed energy like you hoped or are you like grudgingly getting back and like, okay, I have to go do this?

[8:49]No, I do now, but I think I definitely needed a year away from everything.

[8:55]I know some writers like I'm friends with Jody Piku and during the pandemic, she was prolific and we would speak by email and should have written another book.

[9:05]What is going on?

[9:07]I had to just take the time and my brain was like cotton wool in that year. I just couldn't do it. And what's been lovely is once I realized what I wanted to write, which was something lighter than normal.

[9:20]No, I'm known for someone who makes people cry. And what I found during that period was I just I couldn't read or watch anything dark. I needed rum comes. I needed joy. I need light. I needed laughter.

[9:33]So as soon as I realized that was what I wanted to write, it was fine. And it was fun. And it felt like kind of rediscovering a part of myself just to get back into it.

[9:44]So if anything, today, I've actually been having a conversation with my agent about the fact that now I've got my appetite back and things are coming in. I have to be careful not to over commit again because I can see it all starting to creep up again.

[10:00]And now I'm making sure that in my working day I take an hour and a half out in the morning

[10:05]to walk my dogs that I maybe meet some friends for coffee or get a massage, you know actual self

[10:13]care which I think it's really easy to forget when you're a mom or when you're of certain years

[10:18]and you're kind of trying to take care of a lot of people. Do you wish that you hadn't said yes

[10:24]to so much or do you are you okay with how it all played out? No I'm really okay with how it all

[10:29]played out I mean I wouldn't wish that particular year but I know I have had a career I've

[10:38]ended up with a career that is so far beyond my own wildest imaginings that there is literally

[10:44]not a day that goes by where I don't marvel at it and I'm grateful for it and I think by putting

[10:51]in the hours for those years and meeting people and doing the traveling it's enabled me to perhaps

[10:59]have a slightly healthier balance now but still get to do the thing that I love which is writing

[11:05]and what about the balance with the film stuff are you still loving that or is that

[11:10]is that not your true love or are they completely cold love? It's a really lovely balance I think

[11:18]because I think from other writers I know who've been involved in adaptations it's it is tricky

[11:25]it's much more about people and having to navigate a kind of uncertain diplomatic process

[11:34]and whereas writing is so solitary and what I love about working in film or TV is that actually

[11:42]you're not the only one problem solving which is really nice and honestly being on a set when

[11:48]your film is being made is about the most fun you can have in a professional career it just is I

[11:53]I mean I may have been lucky with the two that I've been involved with so far but I absolutely

[11:58]loved it and I'm still friends with a lot of the people that I met then but at the same time

[12:03]there comes a point where it gets political or it gets overwhelming or it's just a lot and then

[12:11]I quite like to be able to retreat back into my world where I can play you know master of the universe

[12:18]and move my lives around as I want and I'm the one who gets to say whether there's a rain shower

[12:25]here or a romance there you know I'm not dependent on a special effects department or whether the

[12:31]budget will allow it I can just go go crazy yeah and the unlimited budgets of fiction writing

[12:39]who knows would be a huge perk that's so interesting so when you look forward and you want to

[12:46]to make sure you keep everything in line are you changing the pair maybe you don't have a plan

[12:52]and you don't have to answer this but is it the piece of how quickly you're writing books like

[12:56]are you slowing down the pace of writing or are you like how are you thinking about the book

[13:02]production through engine well there was a period where I did a book a year and there's just

[13:08]no way on earth I could do that again now I don't know where I got the energy I don't know where

[13:12]I got the ideas I think it will be at least 18 months between books now I mean this has been three

[13:18]and a half years which has felt quite strange and I'm quite glad to be back in it because

[13:25]like a lot of writers I get a bit untethered if I'm not working I think

[13:31]you know we we process the world by writing it and if I'm not writing I don't know about you I

[13:36]get a bit scratchy I just need to be doing so yeah I probably have slowed down the pace a little

[13:43]but it's just more about just building in human stuff okay you know I had a male friend a director

[13:51]once said to me he said you're a machine and I was proud of that in quite an unhealthy way I just

[13:58]I just felt like I had this work ethic and I could do it and I think what the pandemic

[14:04]forced me to do was actually sit with my feelings instead of running away from them on another tour

[14:10]or burying them in work which is what I think a lot of us do and writers I think are especially

[14:15]bad at work life balance because we love what we do so we think how can it be work a holism

[14:21]when we love what we're doing but it doesn't make any difference you can still do too much

[14:27]so yeah I hope that I get to write for the rest of my life I mean that would be my dream

[14:34]but I am going to make sure from now on that I build in just normal lunches I never took lunch

[14:41]before I just didn't you know I didn't I could never go and have dinner with a friend because I

[14:45]said no I either have to be with my kids or I'm working and now I'm building in all that other stuff

[14:49]and I love it I do love it Jojo I feel like my husband talked to you before this podcast

[14:56]hold you to tell me all this stuff I mean you do yes this is exactly I'm like I work all the time

[15:02]but I love it and people say I'm like a machine I do this and this and this and like oh my goodness

[15:07]I'm either with my kids I'm working or you know and I like I say all these same things and I

[15:12]it's so crazy to hear you say it and that you've like hit this the end of this path and with the

[15:17]cost so that's why I was asking like but would you do it any day really in the moment

[15:21]you've seen so different ones told me about five years ago her life advice was if you're a mother

[15:28]you can only do one other thing well and I really took that to heart so I contracted out everything

[15:34]that I could I had a cleaner I stopped trying to be Nijela Lawson in the kitchen I I had a trainer

[15:42]once a week just to keep fit but beyond that I didn't do anything other than the things that I

[15:48]had to do to stay functional and and now I think I don't think that advice was wrong

[15:55]but I think you can do one other thing well plus find some time for yourself and it creeps up on

[16:01]you so I'm just gonna say to you make sure you build in an hour of me time sorry that's such an

[16:07]awful expression but an hour for yourself every day of lying on the carpet doing nothing meditating

[16:15]or watching a favorite tv show and actually I think it's as good for your brain as sitting

[16:21]in front of your laptop I really do I think it's gonna help you writing this is so crazy this is

[16:28]not where I'm going to kind of therapy for myself this is so I did not even mean this but thank you

[16:38]I sincerely appreciate the advice and I feel like I'm gonna listen to you more than I have

[16:44]anybody else oh I don't know I mean who knows you know the older I get the more I realize I know

[16:49]nothing I just know that doing it that way didn't work in the long run it worked in terms of

[16:56]giving me a kind of career platform but you cannot sustain that level of work and if you're doing

[17:03]what I'm doing I'm gonna say learn smarter than I did and and building some other stuff now

[17:10]okay well I did take a walk today and I was like wow I walked and so long

[17:15]and I was like looking around I'm like it's really loud on the street here in New York

[17:18]here's a question though did you then monitor your step cam yes yes this is what I mean this

[17:25]stuff is so ingrained we have to be I mean this is in the book I just said is it only women who

[17:30]was so deeply you know it's ingrained in us to be useful or productive the whole time like I take a

[17:37]walk but I can't help noticing how many steps I've done yeah so I can't help but it is contributing

[17:43]to my you know whether my butt hangs around my knees or no it's just it like just take the walk

[17:50]to be a walk but it's so hard to do it's so hard to do well I was like I just want to see how long

[17:55]it was I just want to check the distance you know it must have been like five miles and of course

[17:59]it was like 1.9 and I was like what I feel like I was walking forever but I did run into a friend

[18:06]who was going through a hard time and I was like maybe this is why the universe put me on this

[18:09]walk today so I could give this girl a hug we've got better as a result of it so there you go

[18:15]going back to you and your work and how you are known for so long as as you said someone who

[18:20]makes people cry what is that about what is that about in your work I don't know I think writers

[18:28]kind of have a layer of skin missing generally I think we're a bit more porous than a lot of the

[18:32]general population and so for me to write something I have to feel it and what I discovered after

[18:40]me before you was that if I cried when I was writing something or laughed at my own jokes then the

[18:46]reader was likely to as well and that was the first book I introduced real humor and real grief

[18:54]into and I wondered I don't know if it's coincidence but that was the book that took off after eight

[19:01]books beforehand and after that I just I wanted to put more emotion in because when I read a book

[19:10]if someone can make me feel something I mean I could admire amazing writing with a kind of

[19:16]analytical sense I can read it and think well that's a really beautifully crafted sentence

[19:21]but if someone can make me laugh or cry I mean I remember reading Katherine Heiney's standard

[19:26]deviation on a plane and laughing so hard that my kids were just mortified they couldn't stop

[19:34]I had tears coming out of my eyes and she's always been a favorite author of mine since because

[19:40]if someone can make me experience that level of emotion I don't know if it's catharsis or what but

[19:46]I'm in I'm just in I haven't said my I just cried at a book yesterday what now of course I

[19:52]can't remember and I told you ever was I was like your book made me cry I haven't cried in a

[19:56]while so I know it was good the last book I cried out

[20:00]was a book I totally didn't expect to love,

[20:02]which was tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,

[20:05]which is about gaming.

[20:07]It's about future game creation,

[20:09]but have you read it?

[20:11]I didn't finish it, but I read it.

[20:13]Okay, most of it.

[20:13]Well, then you won't know the chapter that I mean,

[20:15]but there is a chapter really near the end

[20:18]where I sobbed for about an hour.

[20:20]And I really, I see we didn't expect to.

[20:23]It was so original and clever and yeah,

[20:26]and it was unexpected.

[20:28]So I've recommended that book everywhere

[20:30]since as a result of that.

[20:32]No, it was for so a Gilman's memoir,

[20:34]The Critics Daughter.

[20:35]That's what I cried at.

[20:36]Ooh, okay, she excerpted.

[20:38]She had a little piece of Charlotte's web.

[20:41]When, oh, you know,

[20:43]it always makes me cry.

[20:45]So it was so perfectly timed in her story

[20:48]of like losing her dad.

[20:49]And I was like, oh my goodness.

[20:51]Okay, I don't know if I'm ready to read that.

[20:53]No, it's good.

[20:54]It's interesting.

[20:55]My gosh.

[20:57]When you wrote the first eight books

[20:58]and then of them hit the list,

[21:00]I'm sure they were still, you know,

[21:03]like enough to keep you going and all that stuff.

[21:06]Why?

[21:07]Like, did you ever want to not do it?

[21:09]Did you ever like just get so frustrated?

[21:11]Like, why is it not hitting?

[21:12]And like, what am I doing?

[21:13]Or like, how did you keep going?

[21:15]Or how did you conceive of all that at that time?

[21:17]I was really, I mean, it was frustrating

[21:19]because every book you write, as you know,

[21:22]you put your heart and soul into.

[21:23]It's impossible to write a half-hearted book.

[21:26]I mean, I don't know, maybe some people do,

[21:28]but I don't know any.

[21:30]And so you put a year, two years of working to this thing

[21:34]and then the cover wouldn't be right

[21:36]or something else would come out at the same time

[21:39]that just steamrolled at everything.

[21:41]And I never gave up hope.

[21:44]My agent was always a great believer in me.

[21:46]She just kept saying, we've just got to find the tipping point.

[21:49]But I'm not sure I believed her.

[21:51]And my expectations had gone down and down and down

[21:54]to the point where I just wanted to be able to support

[21:58]my family until they were grown up.

[22:00]That was it by writing.

[22:02]And I wasn't even sure I was going to be able to do that.

[22:05]But I think I had definitely have a streak

[22:08]of bloody mindedness in me or determination.

[22:11]Something I will keep doing something

[22:14]unless someone gives me a cast iron reason

[22:17]why I shouldn't do it.

[22:18]And I tell my kids that my whole career

[22:21]has been built on resilience because I wrote three books

[22:24]before I got one published and eight books

[22:25]before I had a bestseller.

[22:27]And I just think in publishing, it's so strange as well.

[22:31]It's so much about timing.

[22:33]It's about luck.

[22:34]It's about whether your cover hits.

[22:36]It's about whether one review suddenly makes something happen.

[22:40]I know so many writers who have never had that moment

[22:45]and sometimes the stars align and sometimes they don't.

[22:49]But I can't not write.

[22:52]That's the best way I can describe it.

[22:54]It's like I said to you, it's how I translate the world.

[22:57]And yeah, even if I couldn't get paid for it,

[23:00]I would still be doing it and putting them out

[23:02]on the internet, not that I want you to tell my publishers.

[23:05]Just that.

[23:05]Yes.

[23:08]Excellent.

[23:09]You have this free thing on the side with those pseudonyms

[23:13]that you're like, oh, I'm just putting these little stories now.

[23:15]Actually, that was the only thing I did in the pandemic

[23:18]when I couldn't write.

[23:20]I did write in the depths of the loneliest lockdown.

[23:23]I wrote a short story called Lew in lockdown

[23:26]where I revisited Louisa Clark from me before you.

[23:30]And we put that out for free just to cheer people up.

[23:34]And that felt like a lovely thing to do

[23:36]because it gave people who were stuck at home

[23:40]just a little boost in a day.

[23:42]And that gave me such lovely feedback

[23:45]that it helped remind me why I do the thing I do.

[23:49]The strange thing I have has been over the last few years

[23:52]is not meeting readers.

[23:53]And it's when you meet readers again

[23:55]that you realize that people are sometimes actually affected

[23:58]by what you do or it has resonance for them.

[24:00]And that's so important if you spend 90% of your working life

[24:04]alone.

[24:07]Did you always know you wanted to be a writer?

[24:09]Like from when you were little?

[24:10]No, no, I didn't know any writers.

[24:12]I mean, my parents were in the arts,

[24:15]but they were visual artists.

[24:17]And it was only when I'd been a journalist for five, six years

[24:22]that I started to think, well, maybe I have a voice

[24:25]and started just trying.

[24:27]And I think the first three books were really

[24:30]to see if I could get to the end of something

[24:31]and then to try and improve.

[24:33]And I taught myself about pace and character

[24:36]and building a world.

[24:39]And yeah, so, but again, I now I look back

[24:42]and I think how did I have the energy?

[24:44]I was doing kind of 12 hour shifts at the newsroom

[24:47]and then writing when I came home

[24:48]and some of that was with a baby.

[24:50]So yeah, now I'm asleep on the sofa at half last night.

[24:54]Oh my gosh.

[24:58]Do you ever read to escape?

[25:00]Like you must build that in, but you didn't mention.

[25:02]Are you a big reader?

[25:03]Or would you prefer to sort of get away from the whole genre

[25:06]when you're not writing?

[25:07]I love reading my big love at the moment,

[25:10]though, is audio books because I'm, you know,

[25:12]I do this Doug walk every day at least an hour and a half.

[25:16]Or I have spent a lot of time driving.

[25:18]I just listen because I find it rests my brain

[25:21]in a way that listening to music

[25:24]or listening to the radio just doesn't.

[25:26]And because I am now the person who falls asleep

[25:29]drooling on the sofa at 9.30,

[25:31]if I wait to read at bed in bed at night,

[25:34]I do that thing of reading a chapter

[25:36]and then forgetting what I've read by the next night.

[25:39]So, and there's such talented readers out there now

[25:44]for audio books.

[25:45]So at least I can feel like I'm vaguely keeping up

[25:48]with what's going on in literature

[25:50]if I keep listening.

[25:51]But then you can't read any of the galleys.

[25:54]No, I struggle to read galleys partly just because

[25:58]when I'm writing, I can't have anybody else's voice in my head.

[26:03]And if it's really good, then either I'll just go intimidated

[26:06]and want to stop or their voice

[26:09]might be really strong and start influencing my own.

[26:11]And so, yeah, I only have so much energy.

[26:14]So, yeah, it's mostly audio at the moment.

[26:17]Is there anything related to your parenting through all this

[26:20]or what your kids are sort of gleaned from watching you

[26:24]that you're just any advice or anything related to that?

[26:28]Are you, how they've internalized things

[26:31]or the work ethic or the writing?

[26:33]I think they've all seen what has happened

[26:36]because they saw me when I was unsuccessful

[26:39]and now they see me when I'm more successful.

[26:41]I think if they had a complaint,

[26:43]given that I was home a lot, which is lovely for them,

[26:46]if I'd had an office job, I might have been gone

[26:48]for 14 hours a day.

[26:50]I was present, but I was not always present

[26:52]because I think when you're a writer,

[26:54]especially once you get halfway through a book,

[26:56]half your brain is always processing.

[26:59]What's my character doing here?

[27:01]How am I gonna un-not that plot problem?

[27:05]And I remember, you know, being told by one of them,

[27:08]mum, be present and having to kind of switch my attention

[27:13]back to them.

[27:14]I think it's been a lovely job to have with children

[27:17]because, you know, if they're sick,

[27:19]you can stay up with them all night

[27:21]and still squeeze in a thousand words somehow.

[27:23]I think they didn't love me touring a lot

[27:26]and I don't blame them, but it was necessary.

[27:29]And now they have benefited

[27:31]because I've been able to pay their college fees

[27:34]and things like that.

[27:35]So I think now they really appreciate it,

[27:37]but when they were younger,

[27:38]I think they found it harder.

[27:40]And I never put them in a book.

[27:41]He never put anything to do with your kids in a book.

[27:46]I've seen a couple of authors over here do that

[27:48]and it has been catastrophic for their families.

[27:51]And I would never, never write anything

[27:54]that resembled a family member.

[27:56]That's not worth it.

[27:58]Good point.

[28:00]Very good.

[28:01]I wrote this one draft of a novel

[28:02]and my husband said, well, what did you do

[28:05]with the mom character?

[28:05]I was like, I had the mom be dead

[28:07]because I just couldn't worry about her offending my mom

[28:10]in any way.

[28:11]You know what I mean?

[28:12]This is a beef of mine, which is in fiction.

[28:15]70% of moms I swear end up dead in the first chapter.

[28:18]You know, every fairy tale, dead mom, the goldfish,

[28:21]dead mom, like you just, there's so many

[28:24]where we have to get rid of the mom

[28:26]at the beginning so that we can just get on with the story.

[28:30]And one of the things I really wanted to do with this book

[28:33]was to write a story between mothers and children

[28:38]where it was just functional, where they loved each other.

[28:41]And it was complicated, but you know,

[28:44]they didn't, nobody died.

[28:46]Yeah, keep the mothers alive.

[28:49]Yeah.

[28:50]Well, sorry, we barely talked about your book,

[28:52]but JoJo, this was like amazing.

[28:54]Thank you so much, everybody,

[28:56]someone else's shoes out now, check it out.

[28:59]And thank you so much for all the advice.

[29:00]Thank you so much for having me today.

[29:02]Take care.

[29:02]All right, thanks.

[29:03]Bye-bye.

[29:05]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time

[29:08]to Read Books.

[29:09]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans,

[29:12]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[29:14]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com

[29:16]and sign up for my virtual book club

[29:18]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[29:21]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound

[29:23]for the Sound Editing.

[29:24]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions

[29:26]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.