Sheila Heti and Esmé Shapiro, A GARDEN OF CREATURES
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[0:54]Sheila Hetty and Esme Shapiro are co-authors of a garden of creatures
[1:02]Sheila Hetty is the author of 10 books including the novel's pure color motherhood and how should a person be?
[1:09]She was named one of the new vanguard by the New York Times
[1:11]A list of 15 writers from around the world who are shaping the way we read and write fiction in the 21st century
[1:16]Her books have been translated into 25 languages
[1:19]Esme Shapiro is an author and illustrator her picture books include myself yourself
[1:24]Carol and the pickle toad Alma and the beast and uku
[1:27]Which was a finalist for the governor general's literary award as me also illustrated
[1:31]Yakin dove by cayo mclier and the lies of the story of Elizabeth Skyler
[1:35]Hey molten by Margaret McNamara the garden of creatures is their first collaboration
[1:40]Welcome Sheila and Esme to moms don't have time to read books
[1:44]We're going to be talking about your new picture book a garden of creatures and so much else that you both are working on
[1:52]Wonderful. Thanks for having us
[1:54]Thank you
[1:56]Okay, try to explain the beauty and the message behind a garden of creatures
[2:03]What the book is really about and as me how you decided on the particular palette and how it looks
[2:11]Sort of an aesthetic standpoint as the illustrator and what your main goals the two of you together are and in having this book be out in the world
[2:19]It's me. Why don't you what did you start? You want me to
[2:23]Okay, all right. So a couple years ago. I guess maybe two or three years ago now
[2:31]Sheila sent me the manuscript for a garden of creatures and
[2:38]It couldn't have plopped on my lap in a more important time
[2:42]I had been grieving my grandfather and
[2:47]I was just blown away by the simplicity and the beauty of the manuscript
[2:53]basically
[2:55]the book
[2:57]deals with death in such an elegant way
[3:00]The idea that when someone dies they become the whole world
[3:05]They become the garden that we're living in with something that really resonated with me
[3:11]When I was with my grandfather when he was dying. I had the sense that he became the whole room
[3:17]And when Sheila and I were emailing back and forth
[3:19]I know Sheila. You also had a similar experience
[3:23]With the death of your father. So we had this kind of synchronistic experience of death and I
[3:32]Was immediately like I'm gonna do this. I'm absolutely gonna illustrate this book and
[3:37]I've all I'm a big fan of Sheila's work and I was an honor to work with her
[3:42]Basically, we just jump right in in terms of the color palette and the characters
[3:47]The big thing that I wanted to
[3:52]Show with my illustrations was the idea of
[3:55]If it going from the darkness of the night to the lightness of the day
[4:00]So if you look at it, it starts in the darkness. It's the night the stars are twinkling the moon is up
[4:08]But it starts with the death
[4:12]And in the in the night we slowly start to
[4:16]pull away
[4:18]Some of the big thoughts that the bunny is having and the cat is having and by the end of the book
[4:25]It goes into the brightness in the day and she'll let you
[4:31]I'll give it to you now. Yeah, I wrote the story
[4:35]I was working on my novel pure color at the time, which was also very much in the wake of my father dying and
[4:42]I was going to his house to clean it out. You know after somebody dies. There's so much to do
[4:50]It's so weird. You think that it should be just a time of quietness and grieving and instead you're dealing with all this
[4:56]Bureaucracy and all these details and it's so frustrating
[4:59]You're only you're pulled back into life and you want to disappear from life
[5:03]There's something so structurally weird about it. But anyways, I was I remember waiting for the bus
[5:08]And just the story came to me. I just typed it out on my phone
[5:13]And then I thought I wonder what this is
[5:16]Could it be it could be a children's book and I sent it to Esme who I had never met before but
[5:22]We did she did done an illustration at commission and illustration from her at one point and
[5:28]Yeah, she said this is a book
[5:29]I'd love to illustrate it. If she had said it's not a children's book. I don't want to illustrate it
[5:33]It just will be on my phone
[5:36]Wow, well, good thing you commissioned that last drawing man. I guess you know
[5:40]It worked out
[5:41]I think it had her already had her in your real edek. So speak the book is beautiful. It's sad
[5:47]It's you know you have to stop
[5:49]I mean, it's inspiring but you have to stop and
[5:52]Really think about your own sort of use of of death and loss for a moment
[5:57]Right, you can't read this book and not reflect and one of the beautiful parts about it is
[6:01]that you remind the reader that
[6:03]That very act of reflecting on death is something that we all have in common and that we are in that way
[6:09]Every creature is like in that we have to analyze and wonder
[6:13]And there's no real way of knowing and of course you end up on a very positive note that
[6:19]That as you mentioned that that you know the people we love are around us always and I love to believe that too
[6:23]And I also think about these things through all the time
[6:27]I think my husband thinks I'm like so morbid, but I my mind always goes to these places
[6:32]You know last night my son who's eight was talking about
[6:35]You know the world
[6:36]It's you know not being here and however many years with if the earth would disappear and so I was like well
[6:42]If the earth disappears does that mean that like the heavens disappear and what about all the people who we've lost
[6:48]You kind of circulate to that does that anyway
[6:50]So I'll just say I'm like down this spiral often and so I relate very much to the messaging of your book
[6:56]So so many people well, but do you view this book as something for children? Is this a way for kids to
[7:02]Start exploring their own questions about it. Is it more like
[7:07]What is that what is your intention of having it out there? I know you didn't have an intention writing it
[7:11]It was beautiful and it came to you and it does I'm so glad it's out here as and it's you know
[7:15]It's almost like a poem too, but I don't know it are you viewing this as something you're excited for to go to schools and talk about or is it more like
[7:24]I don't know just where are you with it in terms of the audience and reception and that was sort of a long rambling
[7:30]Yeah, there's been such a positive
[7:32]response from
[7:34]Parents who say that they want to talk to their kids about death or their child is already talking about death
[7:40]And I think I hadn't realized this but there aren't a lot of books for children that are sort of
[7:45]Frank and not religious
[7:48]Not religious, but but beautiful like that there can be something
[7:54]You know that the mystery of death and that the questions that it leaves you with
[7:59]That's rich and I think
[8:02]I've had people say that they were moved by it and like it and it's a book for adults too
[8:07]I don't know
[8:08]I just think that we don't talk about death and the fact that the book begins with the death
[8:14]I think is sort of special like kids know once they once they realize that death is a thing
[8:19]They want to talk about it and think about it because it's so
[8:24]And you would never think that that exists until you're told about it. It's counterintuitive that right we love go away
[8:31]Even when we're adults, it's counterintuitive that somebody disappears
[8:37]Surely you've written a lot inspired by this loss of your dad. Can you talk?
[8:41]Would you mind what telling me more about like what he was like and what is what the loss of him?
[8:47]How he how he passed away and like what what the effect of that has been on you?
[8:51]Yeah, he was like a wonderfully optimistic and playful person
[8:56]Very loving and just a great father, but I think he
[9:01]He was a happy person who loved life and
[9:06]You know, I feel like his legacy for me spiritually and dying was like
[9:12]That the I don't know his death sort of showed me even more beauty in life. I expected grieving to be
[9:19]Sadness and for me. It wasn't exactly sadness. It was deep and it was rich and it was disorienting and bewildering but
[9:27]It opened up the world to me in kind of a magical way
[9:30]Which is not what I would have expected from the death of somebody that I loved and as me your father your grandfather died at the same time
[9:38]And I think you have similar
[9:41]What was he like my grandfather who we called our papa was an incredible man
[9:50]He was he was like a giant man. He always were like a little hat and he was you know
[9:58]He was the
[10:00]person that my whole family flocked to.
[10:03]He was the mountain we lived on.
[10:06]He had five kids and my bubby had passed away
[10:12]when the kids were really young.
[10:15]And so he made it his life's work
[10:18]to hold the rest of the family together.
[10:20]There were 12 grandchildren.
[10:23]We were all incredibly close.
[10:27]And when he was passing away, it was actually
[10:29]the most beautiful passing a person could want.
[10:33]We were all there playing his favorite songs on the guitar.
[10:37]He loved Cat Stevens and Leonard Cohen.
[10:40]And it almost felt like a shit.
[10:43]Like we were all with him for the journey.
[10:46]And when we go, that was a great way to go
[10:51]because he was surrounded by so many of us that loved him.
[10:56]And eventually, when he did pass, I agree with Sheila,
[11:01]like it was so hard.
[11:03]But I also felt like we absorbed the parts of him
[11:09]that we always admired.
[11:11]And I carry him with me in a very special way now.
[11:17]Yeah, I like how in the book, you're also referred to how
[11:20]you don't know when you're going to die
[11:23]because you're not you anymore.
[11:25]And so you can't feel that loss necessarily.
[11:29]I don't know.
[11:30]All this sort of self-reflection has to stop
[11:33]and how the bunny is just like, they're just
[11:37]sort of flummoxed by this whole thing,
[11:39]but like quietly accepting of it,
[11:41]which is this beautiful resolution.
[11:43]It's really, it's just really beautiful.
[11:45]And so important with so much loss in the world,
[11:48]especially the last few years, but obviously all the time.
[11:51]And nice to not hide it.
[11:53]I think what you said before that,
[11:54]I have four kids and we lost my husband's mom
[11:59]and grandmother died of COVID and from complications of COVID.
[12:03]And we had to go through all the stuff.
[12:04]We had all their boxes in our basement
[12:06]and going through the boxes and what does it mean
[12:09]and being able to talk about it is so important, right?
[12:12]Because the beauty you found, Sheila,
[12:14]I feel like you can find at any age
[12:16]once you've lost someone who is in your orbit,
[12:20]suddenly it does change the colors of the world.
[12:22]And I love how that's represented
[12:23]and the shifting of the colors as you pointed out
[12:25]as me, this really awesome backstory for both of you.
[12:29]So as you start and how did you become an illustrator
[12:33]to begin with?
[12:34]I've always known I wanted to be in the arts,
[12:37]my mother's artist, my father's a filmmaker.
[12:41]It was the water I was swimming in my whole life.
[12:44]And in high school, I basically was like,
[12:49]oh, I know exactly what I'm gonna do
[12:51]and I'm just gonna be really focused
[12:53]and I'm gonna do it.
[12:54]I went to an arts high school.
[12:56]So I studied fine art for four years there
[12:59]and then I studied fine art at RISD again
[13:01]for another four years.
[13:03]And I love what I do.
[13:07]I feel like every single book I get to jump into
[13:11]a different world.
[13:13]And I get to play with color and shapes and emotion
[13:18]and shape and emotion.
[13:22]And I feel like I become a part of these kids' worlds
[13:27]in a very special way, part of the fabric of their identity.
[13:32]When we look back at kids' books as adults,
[13:35]I'm sure you guys have felt this way too
[13:37]where you're taken back to where you were
[13:42]at the time when you were reading it.
[13:44]And it's a very special portal to that.
[13:47]So these books that we're working on,
[13:51]especially kids' books, they become a part of who you are.
[13:55]And I feel very proud to be making images
[14:00]and symbols for people to grow up with.
[14:04]Anything.
[14:05]And Sheila, I've done sort of a deep dive into you
[14:08]in your beginnings as a playwright
[14:10]and sending stories out to random people in some ways
[14:13]when you just wanted them to be read
[14:15]and all of that.
[14:16]Talk about your trajectory to being and working with words
[14:20]in so many ways.
[14:21]Playwright, children's book, essay, fiction, novel.
[14:25]I mean, everything.
[14:26]You're like, wait, wait, when is the movie?
[14:28]I mean, the only thing I feel like you haven't done
[14:29]is write a screenplay, but maybe you have.
[14:32]So it's sort of funny as I haven't heard about
[14:37]as May's trajectory.
[14:38]And I feel like mine is very much the same.
[14:40]I was a creative kid that sort of did all kinds of art.
[14:43]I directed plays when I was like five.
[14:45]And I just loved making things always.
[14:48]And I would stay home from school and pretend to be sick
[14:52]and just make up worlds and make my own school
[14:55]and draw the girls that would go to the school and so on.
[14:58]And I just, it was the best days in my life
[15:00]as a kid staying home, pretending to be sick
[15:02]and just being able to make my art all day.
[15:04]And now that's like every day, you know,
[15:08]it's just like the best result of what I could have ever
[15:11]hoped for.
[15:12]And I just, I think, you know, I wanted to be an actress.
[15:15]I wanted to be a photographer.
[15:17]There were so many things I wanted to do.
[15:18]And then I think I was in my teens when I just realized,
[15:22]you know, you have to just pick one
[15:24]because otherwise you're not gonna be,
[15:27]you're not gonna get good at it.
[15:28]Really great at any of them.
[15:29]And I wanted to be really great at something.
[15:31]And I sort of felt like, you know, it's not,
[15:34]for a while I thought, well, there's gonna be a loss
[15:36]not being able to do all these other artistic pursuits.
[15:39]And then I realized, no, if you pick one,
[15:42]all of the others will go, will transform and come out in it.
[15:46]So even though I, you know, gave up acting,
[15:50]I feel like there's still an element in which I do become
[15:52]an actress when I write books.
[15:54]You know, you become the character or, you know,
[15:57]you give up photography, but you know,
[15:59]but there's this still like creation of images
[16:02]and the way things look when you're writing.
[16:04]So it's true.
[16:05]I didn't lose any of them.
[16:06]It's just they all express themselves in language.
[16:08]And I just think I chose writing because that was the one
[16:12]that, you know, when I did it, people gave me
[16:15]the most positive feedback.
[16:16]So I sort of listened to the world,
[16:17]like, oh, people like my stories.
[16:20]And I think I just also felt most,
[16:23]I thought the biggest when I was writing,
[16:26]like all parts of myself came into being when I was writing.
[16:30]And that wasn't the case when I was acting
[16:32]or taking pictures or whatever the other things were.
[16:34]So I feel like so many of your books
[16:39]are these unique takes on books,
[16:42]like novels about novels,
[16:45]like people's story, it's like you're always questioning
[16:49]the form in which you're writing at the same time.
[16:52]So tell me about that.
[16:54]Yeah, I just, I think my subject ultimately is art.
[16:59]And I'm most interested in what is art.
[17:02]And, you know, how can you make something
[17:06]that's truly expressive of your soul?
[17:10]And everyone looks different inside from everybody else,
[17:13]a little bit different, also a little bit the same.
[17:17]And how can you find a shape?
[17:18]You know, I feel like a lot of art is like an imitation
[17:21]of art that you've already taken in.
[17:24]How can you make something new?
[17:26]And I think the way you make something new
[17:28]is by making art truly play.
[17:32]And so when I'm working,
[17:33]I really just feel like I'm playing, you know?
[17:36]And I think it's really never felt like work somehow.
[17:41]I think if you're imitating other novels,
[17:43]consciously or unconsciously,
[17:45]then it would feel like work
[17:46]because you're doing something that isn't intuitive.
[17:49]So, I mean, it's a lot of labor,
[17:51]but it's not a lot of,
[17:54]I'm not trying to,
[17:55]I'm not ever trying to force an impulse into a form
[17:57]that's not my own.
[17:59]Interesting.
[18:01]Wow.
[18:02]How do you feel about that?
[18:04]As Mayan, did you follow Sheila's work
[18:06]for a long time before you worked together?
[18:09]I mean, I definitely agree that
[18:12]with your, if you're making art,
[18:16]there should be in this intuitive kind of playful space.
[18:21]And it's really funny, like I'll do like an artist talk.
[18:25]And one of the questions I always get is
[18:29]how did you develop your style?
[18:31]And I'm always like,
[18:34]I always say the same thing,
[18:36]which is that, you know,
[18:38]don't consciously think about style.
[18:42]You just follow your nose, you follow your curiosity.
[18:45]And if you follow what you're interested in,
[18:48]there's always gonna be a through line,
[18:50]through all of your work.
[18:52]And there's always gonna be certain motifs
[18:55]that you're drawn to.
[18:57]And if you're authentic to yourself,
[19:01]your style appears like, you know,
[19:04]the Wizard of Oz, your style's just there, it's in you.
[19:08]And yes, I definitely knew of Sheila's work.
[19:12]And we had run into each other in Toronto
[19:17]a few years prior at a restaurant.
[19:20]Like there were lots of things with Sheila and I
[19:24]that just felt faded.
[19:26]Like we were just in each other's orbits.
[19:29]And I remember the first day that we met,
[19:34]we met in Toronto at a cafe.
[19:36]And it was the kind of thing where we only had an hour,
[19:37]but we could have stayed and spoken to each other
[19:41]for like half a full day, three days a week.
[19:44]You know, it's just like, I feel like Sheila and I,
[19:49]in many ways our kindred spirits,
[19:51]I feel so connected to her work.
[19:53]And it's just such an honor to be able to bring
[19:58]a garden of creatures to life.
[20:00]honestly. It was it was something that when I was working on it felt intuitive and playful and like
[20:06]the creatures were already there. I was just putting a flashlight on them and bringing them to life.
[20:13]Wow. Both of them will there be more with the characters in this book. Do you see there being
[20:22]future books or just future books collaborations together or have you already worked on something?
[20:28]Well, we've never talked about it. But I I mean, I think that would be so marvelous to do
[20:33]more together. And I agree with what as May says, like the books that you read as a child, you absorb
[20:40]on a cellular level. Like in such a deep way and it forms your being permanently. And I think
[20:48]writing for children is one of the most beautiful kinds of writing that you can do. So
[20:53]Yeah, good idea, Zibi. Let's do this. Yeah. I'm ready anytime she loves it. I love it. No,
[21:01]I would like to see these characters live on. I mean, what would they do next? You know, like, where would
[21:05]they go? What would they tackle? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Just more new characters or any
[21:11]new characters or whatever. Do you have, um, which books affected you on a cellular level as a child?
[21:18]You want to go first? I'll just mention one. Um, we were talking about it yesterday as my like,
[21:24]um, poppy pig by Dick Bruna. And it's just this a story of like a little pig in her house. And she
[21:30]just sweeps up and does the dishes and and and and post the carrots out of the garden and then
[21:37]each the carrots. And it's like a perfect day. And I think I always wanted that simple, simple life
[21:42]where you just do a few simple tasks on the day. And then you're like rewarded with your carrots.
[21:46]And I just don't think to me, like, poppy pigs life is my ideal life. There's something
[21:51]about that book that I just, yeah, really resonated with me. Well, a little bit alone in her
[21:57]house, not that I'm a woman alone in my house, but, you know, close. Um, I love that. For me,
[22:03]it was, I was obsessed with Goodnight Moon. And looking back, I'm like,
[22:11]there, those images are so striking.
[22:17]Colors I personally would never even think to put together like reds and greens and a primary
[22:23]yellow. Like when you look at them, there's nothing calming about the colors for our Goodnight
[22:31]book. But it's almost like there was like a spell put on the books. Like they're, they're incredibly,
[22:39]they're their passageway to falling asleep in a funny way. And I also love as an adult, like,
[22:47]looking at all the little details. And Margaret Wise Brown's writing is so simple and elegant
[22:57]and beautiful. Yeah, that, that was definitely, and, and as I got older, I was obsessed with
[23:07]Grimm's fairy tales. I loved, I, I felt like I was getting insight into a less than perfect world,
[23:16]you know, they, they were very, I felt like they were, I enjoyed how kind of morbid they were.
[23:25]And I always kept them by my bed because they just felt like it was this little precious book
[23:32]that was my own that felt like it wasn't talking down to me that it was, I loved it.
[23:39]Have you read and if you haven't, you have to go Google it now Elizabeth Egan wrote this
[23:43]beautiful essay about Goodnight Moon in the New York Times. I think it was two weeks ago or so.
[23:48]It was so beautiful. And all the, she like really took it apart and analyzed the book, but it was
[23:53]really about her own children growing up and coming at the book herself as her kids went off to
[23:57]college and wow. Yeah. And how, and her reinterpretation of the woman in the chair, you know,
[24:04]the great, the character and, and, and her, I don't know, I found it so, I haven't stopped
[24:09]thinking about it. It's so interesting. Oh, wow. Okay. And you should go, go Google and read that.
[24:14]That'll be your assignment for the day from me aside from doing another book here together.
[24:19]Do the two of you have any advice for the many people out there who are always like,
[24:25]I want to write a children's book or I have a story. I think it would be great. Should I do it?
[24:29]Should I not like, what makes it, you know, how will I get this published? You know, all of that.
[24:35]What would you say? What's your advice? I mean, I don't know. I think that
[24:40]a gratifying audience can also be the people one knows and one's friends. And, you know,
[24:46]I mean, of course, it's a wonderful thing to be published and to be read by people you don't know
[24:51]on a larger scale. But for me, still, you know, the, the, the most gratifying audience are,
[24:56]are my friends and the people that I love. And, you know, sometimes I, I write something and I
[25:01]just send it to three or four friends. And I just want to express myself to them. And so, yes,
[25:09]like, obviously try to get published, but there's, you know, don't overlook the, the depth of
[25:14]like sharing yourself with, with the people that you love and how, you know, that's really important.
[25:19]It's not something to be sort of put down, you know, I don't, I mean, yeah, that's,
[25:28]that's what I would say. Yeah, there's a lot of richness in that.
[25:31]Yeah. And I think I would kind of expand on what I was saying earlier about following
[25:40]your nose with their curiosity. And because, you know, there's, I feel like becoming a creative
[25:49]person is learning about, or it's like learning about when the spark comes. And so for me,
[26:00]that means that sometimes I go down to work. And nothing is there. You know, I can, there's,
[26:09]there's nothing going on on my head. I'm not inspired. And then all of a sudden, I'm cooking or
[26:15]and driving and inspiration strikes. And I think that you kind of have to, you kind of have to learn
[26:24]how this slippery creature of inspiration works. You know, because you're not always going to have
[26:33]your greatest ideas, would you summon them, you know, that some of the greatest ideas come when
[26:41]you're not expecting them. And you have to be ready to write them down or paint them. Even if it's
[26:49]just like in a little notebook, so you can try and remember that spark. So I have found that that's been
[26:57]the most helpful tool for me is learning that I have no control over when inspiration is going to
[27:05]but I'm very good at noticing when it comes. And when it comes, I'm like, all ears, I'm like, okay,
[27:15]what are we going to do? What are we writing down? So yeah, I think that would be my biggest advice
[27:21]to people looking to get into writing or illustration is not wonderful. Amazing. Well, thank you
[27:31]both of you. I'm sorry we didn't get into more stuff. I wanted to talk about pure color and
[27:36]everything. But anyway, congratulations on your latest bug. It's so beautiful. I am going to
[27:43]absolutely read it to my kids. Now that we've talked about it, I can give them even more
[27:47]extra egg or no creatures. And sometimes I like to have them listen to the podcast with
[27:52]the authors. So I'm like, okay, I'm reading you this book, but now listen.
[27:56]So anyway, congratulations. And thanks for coming on mom's no time to read books.
[28:02]Oh, thank you so much. So much fun. Good. I was hoping. Have a great day. Okay, bye.
[28:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of mom's. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[28:18]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at mom's. Don't have time to read books. Also sign
[28:23]up for my newsletter at zebi Owens dot com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[28:27]of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the
[28:32]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and