Kashana Cauley, THE SURVIVALISTS: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
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[0:58]Koshana Kali is the author of the survivalists
[1:01]Koshana is a former Midtown Annie Trust lawyer and Brooklyn resident
[1:04]She is a writer for the Fox comedy the great north a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and a GQ contributor
[1:11]She's written for the Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Pod saves America on HBO as well as the Atlantic
[1:17]The New Yorker pitchfork and Rolling Stone and has published fiction in Esquire slate 10 house and the chronicles of now
[1:23]Koshana now lives in Los Angeles
[1:26]So I'm sorry to do this podcast from the car
[1:28]But it's my I had to drop my son off at school and it's my husband's birthday. My husband Kyle. See, I
[1:35]Decided the last second to go and drop off my son at school. Anyway, here I am. It still works for Ridley
[1:41]Sometimes I completely understand
[1:43]Okay, so welcome Koshana. Thank you so much for coming on monster. I have time to read books to discuss the survivalist a novel
[1:50]Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this with you
[1:54]You too. Can you please tell listeners what your book is about?
[1:58]I sometimes they joke that it's where it's where the intersection of bad roommates and bad boyfriends go to screw up your life
[2:06]It's about a lawyer who's becoming increasingly
[2:11]depressed or their career
[2:13]But she's single and she always wanted to find the perfect guy and she does but there's a big catch
[2:20]He's a survivalist and Sarah has roommates and it doesn't go that
[2:25]There's always something. Yeah, I love how you described her one day as as wearing an orange dress to work
[2:31]So that she could at least pretend it was the weekend to not be so depressed at work. That was a great detail
[2:36]I love that where did this concept come from and did you ever keep a similar sort of spreadsheets with a required amount of Googling her
[2:46]person
[2:49]I do religiously believe in Google. I have never googled my way through a boyfriend because I met my husband a little bit before the
[2:56]Google your way through a boyfriend era
[2:58]But I will Google and anything else than an inch of its life and trust the results. Thank you internet
[3:05]The book came about because I read about two sets of survivalists who are living right in the middle of crime-free neighborhoods in New York City
[3:12]One was a Bonnie and Clyde-like pair living in the very crime-free village
[3:17]19th and six the for folks who are familiar with New York and the other one was on the end of my block and prospect
[3:22]Heights
[3:23]It was about a trendy ramen shop stuck a highly guns like it was going out of style and another neighborhood that wouldn't know what crime was
[3:29]It did it in the face that I was like why I was but I grew up in a house with guns and my parents stuck piled food
[3:36]And they were very much just in case people. So I sort of understood how these folks could end up there
[3:42]But also sort of not and that's when I started writing the book and tell me about the decision to make both of their
[3:50]Parents both deceased and how that became a common element or read that area
[3:55]I'm not as close to my parents as I could need because of their survival zone and I took a
[4:01]Very hard look at that sort of relationship and what it's meant in my life
[4:05]But I also wanted a
[4:07]Retha to have a reason why she was really really going after this guy who looked super questionable and I feel like it
[4:14]Various points in the book. It feels like they are trying harder than most couples do to create a family sense around them
[4:20]Even though they are not engaged and they have not necessarily committed to each other in a sense that would really make that make
[4:26]Sons if their parents are fit out and they're hanging with these roommates in this lifestyle
[4:32]Maybe that that opened up the chance for them to be more committed to each other
[4:36]Otherwise she could just leave or step right, but you find that common element whatever it is
[4:41]Convince yourself of anything
[4:43]I loved all the imagery and the details about the coffee
[4:48]Bags the coffee grinds all everything related to the business of the coffee the coffee back story if you will have tell me about that
[4:58]It was the late ox to me and my husband and our friends
[5:02]We were all just hardcore into coffee. It had just moved over from being like
[5:06]You put keys on that syrup in your Starbucks and the part of me or we're living in to wait
[5:11]There are notes there this there are blueberries in this there are citrus notes
[5:15]We hunted down all these third-wave coffee shops. I started talking to baristas
[5:19]I read all the the details about the farmers that they posted on their wall how the crafts were grown
[5:25]How did they hard?
[5:27]Them I got a bass I start reading something called in by I drove down in North Carolina
[5:31]I'm visit a cat or culture coffee and talked to their roosters and they thought I was a professional
[5:35]And I was like oh no, I'm just so
[5:39]And then so when it came time to decide what anybody was going to do in this book
[5:43]I'm a big believer and people you know, now I have professions and literature
[5:47]Oh, I want to write about something. I'm obsessed with I want to see if coffee works
[5:51]And it did that's other so then what is your good to coffee?
[5:55]What do you get? What do you drink in real life?
[5:57]Oh right now I'm on the subscription program from this coffee roaster in my neighborhood
[6:01]Cult go get them tighter and Los Angeles
[6:04]But I everywhere I go on a trip. I bring back home a bag. I've ordered coffee for lost detectives of Brooklyn
[6:10]I
[6:11]Was very good
[6:12]sight to meet some
[6:13]Salvadorans in Paris because I wasn't a huge fan of general Paris cafe coffee
[6:18]We started talking about coffee for half an hour in a house, South American beans were better one
[6:23]I'm I'll meet a coffee room and everywhere I go. I'll try a bag everywhere
[6:28]But generally like heavy notes like butter scotch chocolate
[6:33]How do you?
[6:35]Different different ways of making the coffee and the like two at the different Eric's or whatever
[6:40]So how like how do you do a drip? I know this is like ridiculous, but I'm curious
[6:44]I have a chem X. I'm a big believer in it
[6:47]I used to be a French press person
[6:48]But it turns out that Wales and French press are not great for your cholesterol
[6:52]And start I said, okay, I'm gonna be we're healthy about those the chem X filters out those whales and then you pour over
[6:58]Hot coffee on top of the ground beans on a filter and it's reopened to the air. It's re elegant
[7:03]So for someone who spends as much time and tension on coffee tell me about how you
[7:10]Started writing. I know you've done to work as well
[7:14]How did you get into why write a novel and just writing in general like where did that come from and something you've always loved?
[7:22]I was a really early lover of books. I was like the eight-year-old me main friends was my librarian
[7:28]And read like little women and stuff that turned it to high school poetry that was bad and then high school poetry
[7:34]That was better and then fiction that was bad and I just kept going because I love it so much
[7:40]I wrote a book on the side when I was in law school
[7:44]That didn't work out, but was a good exercise in terms of structuring and laying out a novel
[7:48]I wrote two other ones that didn't sell, but this was believe it or not at the last one
[7:54]I was like if this doesn't sell I'm just going to find something else
[7:58]In between all the books. I ended up writing on fiction. I was briefly an opinion writer at the times
[8:04]I
[8:05]Ended up writing for TV because somebody DMed me one night and said, you know
[8:09]I really like your jokes because they're a chance to consider writing for television
[8:13]But I always wanted to write a novel the whole time and all of these other
[8:16]Class were complete surprises, but it's been so much fun to have all this experience as a writer of that
[8:22]Under the people I met so many other writers and editors. I love it
[8:27]Wow, I love that. I think it's so important to for people to hear about all of the past
[8:33]Any attempts. I feel like it's you have to write at least two practice novels or
[8:39]They're much else and so rare to mean somebody who sells first thing. They've ever written fully as a novel
[8:45]So it's not a failure. It's just like you have to do that because that's what you have to do
[8:51]Like you can't play a tennis match
[8:53]The journey is fun. I think I've become a better writer because of all of that
[8:57]I know I don't know a signal person without a juror book like you were saying and honestly
[9:01]They all everybody I've talked to feels like they're better writers for having one under their belt
[9:05]That didn't work out either. It's part of a journey and the journey is fine
[9:09]I love how you said that though that you start as like a
[9:13]Pat though and that fiction. It's like the hierarchy to getting where you get to getting a great
[9:18]You go like if you're in high school and you're writing a bad poem right now
[9:22]Like stay tuned because
[9:24]That is a pure on your way. The bad probably went to other friends who are writing bad poetry too
[9:29]That was my first writer community. I feel like the idea of writer community
[9:35]Cask didn't I've carried that with me for a long time too and that was some of why I love this though
[9:40]So everything to me all the footsteps had a purpose and they had friends at all those levels
[9:44]I read people his work was better than me and who I learned from at all those levels. I got better
[9:50]It was a long journey for me, but it was worth it
[9:53]Was there a piece of a TV writing that particularly helps in the all-or-righting like do you help with dialogue or?
[10:00]You're pacing or like the piece of everything or is it just out in general at the daily show
[10:06]I became a list of afraid writer and a list of free picture you have to pitch to
[10:10]60 people every morning at 9 a.m. and you have to be the funniest person in the room who's on point with what news
[10:16]They want to cover that day and after getting up in front of a room and like pitching to 60 people every morning
[10:23]I will never I do not I'm not afraid of present ideas
[10:26]I'm not afraid to do public speaking. I'm not afraid to just write something down and see if it
[10:30]works and junket if it doesn't and happy that job taught me to fear a lot of things a lot less
[10:36]like a real trial by fire situation so if your own author community like what are some of the
[10:43]best avenues for growing that or for where do you find yourself making the most relationships related
[10:49]to writing and then how do you foster them? Is it one off or do you join communities like actual
[10:54]communities or is it bookish events or like how do you keep all that going or is it just a personal
[11:01]thing like any other story? I started on Twitter the editor of this book was my eight fall around
[11:05]Twitter back in 2010. He and I dangle about that a lot because we I mean he's found he's the editor
[11:13]chief of a college now so I have this book I we've gone through a lot together and he edited a
[11:18]column I wrote in 2015 also and that was that's been one of the longest most of filling professional
[11:24]relationships in my life that started out when I followed somebody back and we started chatting
[11:28]every day five years before we ended up working together professionally. He and I fell in with other
[11:34]girls and people to write about our level at the time he was running a lit bag but
[11:38]the had a smaller audience and I was writing real short stories that have a smaller audience and
[11:42]so we're sewing with people we hang out with. We were just at the same level we talked
[11:46]every day about what we thought about books. We thought about other writers and we thought
[11:50]about gossip that ended up spilling over after I'd written for five years into real life events in
[11:55]New York. I started going to parties and people had read a piece of mine and could recognize me
[11:59]by site which is insane. I met a ton of ton of people that way who were doing who were obsessed with
[12:04]things that I wasn't and I learned a lot from their sessions. I love obsessed people. They're the
[12:09]best. And then from there yeah I'm still on Twitter I still do stuff in real life. I still think
[12:16]just reaching out to people who seem interested in your work or people who because work
[12:20]you're interested in has been something that has really helped me make friends in the
[12:24]part of your community and also get better as a writer and look out for more people to read
[12:30]as well. Do you ever do any classes or anything? No not since high school. I don't have an
[12:35]MFA or anything. I came from from scratch and lots of stuff for it. I was rejected for an MFA
[12:44]but it's okay. I've made it. So when you read, what are the types of things you gravitate towards?
[12:51]What do you love to read? These days I'm really in the current section. I feel like just kind of
[12:56]suddenly there's a lot of parts of our society that aren't working out right now. A lot of folks
[13:00]and crime fiction are turning to very dream ends to pursue their goals and to pursue justice.
[13:06]And so there's a lot of truth and realism in those novels even though they don't necessarily
[13:11]involve things that people would do in real life. I love contemporary fiction with a sense
[13:16]of humor. I love personal humor. I love Gary A. Stanger. I love non-fiction with real
[13:22]vermin style. I love patch of gratitude. I love Isabelle Wiltkerson read this great book called
[13:28]Cast and this other book called The Works of Other Sons and I am descended from great migration
[13:33]people and just love reading about that part of Black History. I love Black History. I love Black
[13:39]but in general, and I love random authors who I never would have heard of who are just doing
[13:43]interesting sounding things that people tweet about. I know people are afraid to self-ferroat on why,
[13:48]but I sort of got a Teachable for writing their own books is how I find your book and there are a
[13:52]lot of people who find your book and I will just click on random links all the way along and be
[13:56]and introduce to people who I've become fans of careers. I agree. I love seeing what they
[14:02]promote but also what other people that I really respect promote what books they're reading.
[14:07]I feel like that's me, plus I promise this.
[14:10]Hey, I know that. Hey, and what are you working on now?
[14:14]It's really too much of an informed baby to talk about in any great detail that I am working
[14:21]on a second novel that explores some of the stuff that I would say that's in the first novel
[14:26]that I'm obsessed with. Let's just leave it back.
[14:29]Okay, great. Aside from the friends that you met that you met or the two couples who were
[14:36]survivalist also, did they just a wet your appetite for this whole topic? But then did you do it
[14:43]more a deep dive and get obsessed about survivalism in general? And how much did you have to learn
[14:49]about guns and like what specifics and all that?
[14:52]I do absolute tons of gun research. It's amazing how you can grow up in a household where people
[14:56]have guns and not know anything about mates, model, how they're fired, etc. What they're used for.
[15:02]Wisconsin is a hunting culture. I'm originally from there, but I had to learn about
[15:06]like personal ownership, which is nothing to do with hunting rifles or that sort of gun usage
[15:11]as well and concealed carry and things like that. Concealed through, it was not a thing when I was growing
[15:15]up Wisconsin. It was not allowed until after I left the state. And so I had to learn about basically
[15:20]the personal reasons why people owned guns outside of hunting deer, which was what was really trendy
[15:24]when I was growing up. I looked into the bundies and awful lot because I was amazed at how
[15:31]people could occupy federal land for that long and not get into more serious trouble than
[15:35]they did. I also had the great luck of ending up with a friend who had a boyfriend who
[15:43]filled their attic with guns and brought like a tank into a major city and didn't mind being
[15:49]lightweight because it's about what his deal was, which was just insane. After it already
[15:56]developed an interest list, she just started dating with a guy and I was like, wow.
[16:01]Let me just ask you questions and try to be subtle about the fact that I've
[16:03]asked leave fascinated with what you're doing. But yeah, but then on top of that, I just
[16:08]I read about black survivalist too, which is a bit of a different tradition than a lot of
[16:12]the stuff I just mentioned. All of them were internal, a little less like carrying guns at Target.
[16:17]Yeah, I did a lot of research. It was fun. Do you ever think about being like a historian or
[16:24]like what was your path if the writing thing had and out for you?
[16:28]Man, I don't know. I kind of wanted to be a writer since I was 10. I was a very unhappy lawyer
[16:34]and at towards the end, I was like, what if I really tried going after writing? I thought I
[16:40]might be a musician once. I am not particularly talented at anything. I did play the violin for 10
[16:46]years, but nah, I just, I'm one of those always wanted to be a writer types living dream.
[16:51]Well, this book is definitely not an advertisement for joining a locker room.
[16:56]I did. There are no advertisements to join me.
[17:00]Oh, but they definitely is a one.
[17:03]But like run the other way.
[17:07]So what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[17:09]Oh, keep going. Honestly, I must have it myself and the most of the people I know.
[17:14]The reason why we got published is because we kept going. We took the negative feedback.
[17:18]We took the rejections. We took the bad drafts. We took the general sense of, I think at the
[17:23]the beginning, you're kind of unsure of your own work and you just sort of have to fight through
[17:26]that and go, you know what? I believe in what I'm doing and I'm going to keep going. If you're
[17:30]very at the beginning, congratulations on how to power to you, but I will love them and it was
[17:34]something I had to fight through. And just, you know, I don't think it's bad friends that are
[17:38]a writer. Just if you find folks that are fun and that you feel like you're learning from and really
[17:42]enjoying hanging out with, it's cool to rework people who do work that you doubt. I have a lot of
[17:47]journalist buddies. I know a lot of nonfiction hosts, generally. And it was fun to hang out with
[17:53]them and learn how just a different side of running worked and to do a little bit of that and
[17:58]kind of develop my writer bringing in different ways. So basically, whatever you think will help
[18:02]your writing, you should go ahead and do that. And to keep finding some sort of writing practice,
[18:05]keep going, keep producing drafts, keep sending work out, keep taking the rejections and stride.
[18:10]And with it, the whole here piercing at the mall thing happens.
[18:14]I was 16. My very first John was at a Claire's in the mall. I, this was like the late 90s.
[18:24]They handed me a cassette tape and they were just like, we're going to, so you'll have this cassette
[18:29]tape and then you'll have this mannequin that's made a star from with earloves. And you're just
[18:34]going to take the ear gun. They called an ear piercing depth. You're just going to shoot the mannequin.
[18:39]And then you'll be fine. You'll be able to do real people.
[18:43]It's like, you know what? No. They had a look at it. And I quit my end and ended up going to
[18:48]another store in the mall. I'm selling code, which was so much less violent.
[18:54]Well, I had a daughter who got her ears pierced at Claire's and must say,
[18:59]anyway, I won't even come in. Thank you for coming in, mom. I'm still attached to read books.
[19:03]I'm sorry again for writing this in my car, but what I do when I have to do something for my kids.
[19:08]So I had to fit it all in. You know, congratulations. This book is already just getting so much
[19:13]buzz at all the rest. So, um, I look forward to just through watching it. Is it all?
[19:19]It's thanks for having me. It's really worth a pleasure to talk to you about this work.
[19:23]But bye, you too. Bye bye.
[19:26]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books.
[19:29]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books.
[19:35]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[19:39]lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for
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[19:49]now trim music.