Rhett Miller, THE BABY-CHANGING STATION
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.
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[0:58]Brett Miller is the author of The Baby Changing Station. This was guest hosted by Juliana Goldman.
[1:03]Brett Miller is a singer-songwriter known for fronting the popular rock band Old 97's.
[1:08]Between projects with the Old 97's, Miller has released six solo albums most recently 2018's The Messenger.
[1:14]In addition to his songwriting, Miller has branched out to write fiction and non-fiction.
[1:18]He has authored short stories, essays, and articles that have been featured in Rolling Stone,
[1:23]book forum, Sports Illustrated, McSweeney's The Atlantic, and Salon.
[1:26]We're not on tour. Miller resides in New Paltz, New York with his wife and two children.
[1:30]He was actually kind enough to have me on his podcast.
[1:33]Brett Miller, author of The Baby Changing Station, coming to us from your car. Thank you.
[1:39]Thanks for having me.
[1:41]So I love this book so much because it's somebody who reads many, many children's books every single night.
[1:49]It can sometimes be my numbing, and I really appreciate when authors make them fun for the parents as well.
[1:56]And I felt like this was just on every page, like a little chuckle for me as well.
[2:02]It's funny. One of the sections I've ended up reading a couple of times is where James lists off his dad's favorite bands.
[2:10]And so there's like a list of band names that happens in this kids book that includes the kinks.
[2:16]He calls them the Van Halen's Sly and the Family Stone.
[2:20]I don't think there's any kids book out there with the kinks appearing in it.
[2:24]Certainly not one that I've read for sure.
[2:26]So let's just like a background to this book.
[2:29]It asks the fundamental question that every older child faces at one point in their life, which is,
[2:37]what would you trade in your younger sibling if someone offered you something really, really cool.
[2:43]Tell us the backstory.
[2:45]I grew up in Dallas and I'm the oldest of three kids and my little brother who's so funny.
[2:51]I'm 52 and he just turned 50, my little baby brother.
[2:55]And when my parents brought him home from the hospital, I was so mad.
[3:01]So I was livid and I went and I stood in the corner and I wouldn't turn around.
[3:06]And there was some intimation that they walked in and found me with a pillow holding it over him.
[3:13]I'm not saying I was going to like smother my brother, but I think it was on the table.
[3:18]So I was very jealous of the attention. This incredibly cute younger kid was getting.
[3:23]And I never forgot that.
[3:25]I mean, he and I as close an age as we were and it's different as we are.
[3:30]He played football and we just were very different kids.
[3:36]So inevitably we were really competitive.
[3:39]So when it came time to think of a follow up to my book of poems,
[3:45]I wanted one story and I thought about when I was little,
[3:49]one of the main storylines of my young childhood was the introduction of these interlopers,
[3:55]my little brother and then eventually my little sister, Ross and Christie.
[3:59]Flash forward by the way, I love them both so much now.
[4:03]And that's really the engine of this book is the idea that you don't know when you're presented with this initial threat to your dominance of the household.
[4:12]You don't know that it won't be long before they become an integral part of your everyday happiness.
[4:20]And so that was really what drove the narrative in this story.
[4:25]And I really loved these characters and I love getting to watch their relationship as I was writing the book evolve to the point where at the end.
[4:34]Honestly, when I realized what I wanted the last page to be, I can't really choked up.
[4:40]Yeah.
[4:41]It was very sweet.
[4:42]I mean, it just meant so much to me that that I got to sort of relit my own love for my younger siblings and then kind of invent these characters and live there this moment of bonding for them.
[4:54]Well, it's so nice because I think older siblings can read it and say, okay, someday they're going to be my best friend and I don't need to trade in.
[5:02]And then for a guitar and younger siblings can read it and say, okay, someday your older brother sister they're going to get it to and they're going to be your best friend.
[5:13]Yeah, I think it's I think it's a, I think it's a sweet story and I think it's realistic.
[5:18]Like I think it's, I think it's okay to address the thornier parts of childhood.
[5:25]Not just okay, but it's important because when we deny that we all go through these kind of tricky moments throughout our lives.
[5:33]But really in childhood is where I think things get glossed over the most because it's just easier to say, you know, don't think about that that doesn't exist go play.
[5:42]I think it's important as parents that we give kids a space to talk about the trickier parts of childhood.
[5:50]Because, you know, it's so it's so easy to kind of gloss things over for kids because we get to, you know, we get to boss them around a little bit.
[5:58]Now don't worry about that go play everything's fine.
[6:00]But when you give kids space to address the things that make them feel threatened or overlooked.
[6:08]I feel like that's a really valuable thing and you're teaching them tools that they can use in later life to self advocate.
[6:17]That's something I've got kids.
[6:19]The reason I started writing kids books to begin with was because my kids were little and we read all the books.
[6:25]And we wanted more and I thought I could maybe engage them if I were working on poems and books and now they're one of them just went to college and the others about to.
[6:35]And the fact that we aggressively pursued this agenda of our kids standing up for themselves addressing what they were dealing with the trickier things.
[6:46]It's okay to be unhappy and it's also okay to find a path back to happiness.
[6:52]I feel like it's really serving them well now in their, you know, young adult lives.
[6:58]So I have a question about that because I feel like parenting strategies have definitely changed from when we when we were growing up.
[7:06]And so I've wondered about that. How have you seen that kind of like approach to parenting shape your children as they've gotten older versus way that some of us were, you know, personally raised being told you don't need to feel that way.
[7:24]that something something's bothering you just focus on something else and move on.
[7:29]Boy, I think anytime you can look a kid in the eyes and talk to them about something that's real, you know, and really let them tell you what they're going through.
[7:41]assume on their part a level not only of intelligence and savvy but also a level of self awareness that I think we often rob kids of.
[7:51]I think it's important to give them that opportunity and they will surprise you like for me, not just with vocabulary but that was something early on I decided like I'm going to.
[8:02]I can hold back with my kids, I mean, not in terms of, you know, potty words necessarily, but just in terms of like big words, you know, tense words I spoke to them, assuming a level of intelligence on their part that they have always rose up to.
[8:18]I think that there is an emotional analog where you can say if you assume that they have a depth of feeling that they maybe just don't have the emotional language to express yet.
[8:31]And then you let help them find it give them a space to find it that's going to serve them well, not just in the moment but in the long run as well.
[8:40]actually that brings us back to the book because I loved in the book how you empowered the older brother to change the baby's diaper right because every parent gets into that having been a parent and a pizza.
[8:53]And I'm like, oh, I'm like, oh, I really don't want to have to deal with that, I wish my kid was old enough to, but I love it use in the book.
[9:07]The parents look at the older brother and they say, you know what, you're old enough it's time.
[9:15]Well, one of my favorite things when my kids were little was being able to help like on the basis level, if I could change a diaper and I changed every diaper that was in in playing, I went for it because especially as a dad there's so.
[9:34]The list of things you can really do on a day to day basis when kids are really little is is so limited because you know they ended up leaning so much on the mom.
[9:45]And so I felt like diaper changing that's that's something I can absolutely do I've spent at that point you know 20 plus years in a rock and roll band.
[9:52]I've gross stuff I can handle this and so I changed every diaper I possibly could and I think that it's you know it's.
[10:00]It's a great example of how members of the family,
[10:04]maybe not just the dad, that aren't the mom,
[10:07]can step up and really be of service.
[10:10]And you know, it takes a village
[10:13]and your family is your first little village.
[10:15]And so I know when it came to my little brother and sister,
[10:18]when I was growing up, I made a lot of dinners.
[10:21]Granted, most of them were not shows in the microwave
[10:24]to begin with, but I made a lot of dinners.
[10:26]I made a lot of school lunches.
[10:28]I did a lot, once I was able to drive,
[10:30]I did a lot of shuttling around.
[10:33]You know, I would go to father-daughter dances
[10:34]when my dad couldn't be there with my little sister.
[10:37]I think it's really important that we emphasize
[10:41]the family unit and strengthen the bonds
[10:43]within the family unit.
[10:44]And to me, changing diapers is about as perfect
[10:49]an example of something you can really bring to the table
[10:52]as it were of anything.
[10:54]Before we move on, you mentioned you saw gross stuff
[10:58]and your career in Iraq band.
[11:01]What's like the PG-13 version of the grossest stuff
[11:05]that you saw?
[11:06]Okay, so even now, my band will have been together
[11:09]for 30 years next year.
[11:12]And even now, we just did a tour
[11:14]where we wound up in Syracuse one night for a show
[11:17]and the dressing room, every square inch of the wall
[11:20]was covered in graffiti.
[11:21]The couch was held together with duct tape.
[11:24]It was, there were literal bugs in the dressing room.
[11:29]And I had to like, like change into my cool rock and roll shirt.
[11:34]And, you know, I had to like leave my bag
[11:36]with my personal belongings in that room.
[11:39]And I'm thinking, these are the things I do for art
[11:42]because I love my job.
[11:44]And if every night was like this,
[11:45]I might not be willing to do it.
[11:47]But if I have to deal with bugs in graffiti
[11:49]and a duct tape couch for one night out of a three week tour,
[11:52]I can do this.
[11:53]But yeah, there's some dark moments on rock tour.
[11:58]Way darker than a blowout.
[12:00]And then real quick back to the book.
[12:02]I loved also how you had the baby changing station
[12:06]in Emanstrom.
[12:08]Talk about why that's important.
[12:10]It's funny because to me,
[12:12]maybe it's because I live in a very liberal little town
[12:16]in the Hudson Valley of New York
[12:19]and maybe I feel separated as a parent.
[12:23]Like in the, when I tour,
[12:25]I see all the differences between all the subtle differences
[12:28]between the parts of the country and the world.
[12:30]But it didn't really occur to me that it was a big deal
[12:34]that the baby changing station is situated in Emanstrom.
[12:38]But once the book was out,
[12:40]I kept hearing from people that they were so glad
[12:43]that I made a point to have a baby changing station
[12:45]in the men's room because we still have lots of places
[12:47]around the world where that's not the case.
[12:50]And the more I looked into it, I discovered
[12:52]that's really a thing.
[12:53]Baby changing stations are only in women's rooms
[12:56]or maybe if there's a family restroom.
[12:58]And I, that had not even occurred to me.
[13:01]And the fact that we are still so behind the times
[13:04]around the world in terms of, you know, gender duties
[13:08]with regards to parenting.
[13:10]And that was, that blew my mind.
[13:14]But I hope we can move past that quickly
[13:16]because everybody needs to change diapers.
[13:18]Come on, people.
[13:19]Yeah, sorry.
[13:20]I don't know.
[13:21]Maybe just because it's a rainy day,
[13:22]but I had to chuckle when you said gender duties.
[13:25]But let me ask you about the book.
[13:29]When you, like, what's the process of writing a children's
[13:32]book to the, because you've partnered with the illustrator?
[13:36]How do you collaborate?
[13:37]Do you write, do you write first?
[13:40]And then he does a first set of drawings.
[13:42]Is he do a first set of drawings?
[13:43]And then you write to the images.
[13:46]Tell us about that.
[13:47]The first time I collaborated with Dan Santat,
[13:50]who is the best in the business, which, by the way,
[13:53]on a brief aside, a little less than I learned
[13:56]from the first book, No More Poems.
[13:59]When that was finished, and I was working with Megan
[14:01]Tinkley, the great editor at Little Brown Young Readers,
[14:04]I had heard an interview with this illustrator.
[14:07]And I don't really know anything about the literature
[14:09]world, but I've heard this interview with Dan Santat.
[14:13]And I went to Megan and said, do you
[14:14]think we could get this guy?
[14:16]I heard an interview of Dan Santat.
[14:18]And she said, well, he's the best illustrator
[14:20]in the world right now.
[14:21]There's no way we could get Dan probably,
[14:23]but don't get your hopes up, but I'll reach out.
[14:26]Turned down, and there is a fan of the band,
[14:28]and loved the poems, and was willing to do it.
[14:31]And so with the second book, which was a standalone storybook,
[14:35]I wrote the whole book, but I knew in my mind
[14:37]that Dan would be able to bring it to life,
[14:39]and that he would be able to make these kids pop
[14:42]and to make like a big chunk of the book, obviously,
[14:45]again, chunk is set in a bathroom.
[14:47]And so I knew that Dan would find a way
[14:50]to make that not just palatable, but exciting and fun.
[14:55]And he did.
[14:57]I mean, he really is the best in the world,
[15:00]but he also is like one of us, the fact that he and I
[15:03]went on a book tour together for the last book.
[15:06]And we appeared in front of lots of little kids,
[15:09]seeing him interact with an entire grade
[15:11]school of kids in a gymnasium,
[15:13]and just bringing them to tears, rolling on the floor, laughing.
[15:16]And he's so great and so funny, and really, so generous,
[15:20]because I think that is what comes through in his illustration
[15:23]and in his collaboration.
[15:25]So I brought him the book, but he definitely
[15:28]just built the world with his illustration.
[15:32]What other books has he illustrated for that people might write?
[15:36]So Dan won the Caldecott for his book,
[15:40]The Adventures of Beagle.
[15:43]And also written after the fall, a book called Are We There
[15:48]Yet.
[15:48]He's illustrated a countless, countless number of books,
[15:53]but he's great.
[15:54]He's got a new graphic novel, Memoir, that just came out
[15:59]that's really beautiful.
[16:00]I think the world of Dan Santan.
[16:02]When you write, do you have a tune in your head?
[16:07]Or when you read your books?
[16:09]Is there a tune to the lyrics?
[16:11]It's funny, you ask that, because there
[16:13]is a definite through-way from songwriting,
[16:16]which is my main job, to the poems originally.
[16:20]And then this book, it's a long book,
[16:22]and it has one rhyme scheme throughout, one syntax
[16:27]and meter formula throughout the whole book.
[16:30]And when I came up with the concept,
[16:35]I lived with the idea for a while with the question
[16:38]of who would be this older brother,
[16:40]who would be this younger brother.
[16:42]And then I had a flash of inspiration,
[16:45]and I got the opening stands of the book, which is,
[16:49]people have names in my name is James.
[16:51]I'm a regular 10-year-old kid.
[16:53]And there was something so jaunty about that.
[16:56]It felt almost like an Irish jig or something.
[17:00]It was a da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
[17:03]And so I thought that was musical,
[17:07]but more importantly, I thought that was sustainable.
[17:09]I knew it was a complicated cadence
[17:12]and a complicated rhyme scheme,
[17:14]because it's almost like a limerick.
[17:15]Like it has, it's built around like,
[17:18]it's a sandwich set of rhymes,
[17:20]and then it's got an internal rhyme.
[17:22]There's a lot going on, is my point.
[17:25]And I had to sustain that for 32 stanzas or 64,
[17:29]however many it is, a long, long stretch.
[17:33]And there's places where I know I stretch
[17:36]the syntax and the cadence a little bit,
[17:40]but I know that my favorite books always did that.
[17:42]Like the books I was reading, my kids,
[17:44]sometimes it took you the second reading
[17:46]to figure out where some of the rhymes landed
[17:49]and where some of the emphasis landed within the meter.
[17:55]But I thought, I thought these books bear repeating
[17:58]and rereading, and I thought if anything,
[18:01]it would draw people back in,
[18:03]because my favorite art is art
[18:05]that comes with layers.
[18:06]And so not only are there layers of meanings,
[18:09]but of meaning, but just within the book,
[18:12]the sound of the stanzas themselves sort of have layers
[18:16]and you get to dig into them as you reread.
[18:19]So you have the book with you.
[18:21]Is there a section you'd wanna read your favorite section?
[18:24]I know you mentioned the last stanza,
[18:27]but we don't wanna give it away.
[18:28]So is there another section you'd wanna read for listeners?
[18:33]Sure, you brought it up because I think it's pretty fun.
[18:37]The moment we're there out at the family pizza night,
[18:41]and they've just eaten way too much pizza.
[18:45]And let's see.
[18:48]So they've just leaned back in their seats
[18:51]and rubbed their economies and everyone is full.
[18:55]And we go to, and there's a great pickery determined
[18:59]looking face and all, basically quivering.
[19:01]And everybody is looking at them
[19:02]wide-eyed horror at the table, and it goes,
[19:05]that's how they were when little Joe stirred
[19:07]and let out a tiny whimper.
[19:09]We could all tell by the subsequent hold on,
[19:13]a restart, that's how they were when little Joe stirred
[19:17]and let out a tiny whimper.
[19:19]We could all tell by the subsequent smell
[19:23]he'd loaded up his diaper.
[19:26]Dad blinked his eyes like he was surprised
[19:29]or super exhausted, maybe.
[19:31]Mom said, no way.
[19:33]I've had him all day.
[19:34]It's your turn to change the baby.
[19:37]They stayed in their chairs, glaring their glares.
[19:40]My brother just sat there and stank.
[19:43]They turned in their seats, and they both looked at me
[19:46]and my 10-year-old stomach sank.
[19:50]People have names, and my name is James,
[19:52]but normally Dad calls me Jbone.
[19:56]Tonight was not normal.
[19:57]He sounded all formal.
[19:59]James, my-
[20:00]son. This is a milestone. Your mother and I need assistance tonight with your brother and his
[20:06]situation. In that bathroom right there to the left of your chair, there's a baby changing station.
[20:13]You may be a kid, but it's time that you did some diaper duty too. That word made me snicker.
[20:20]But why not? I figured. I mean, what else could I do?
[20:25]And then the book goes from there. And then he's presented with a with a terrible choice.
[20:33]Should he trade in his baby brother for these three options of really cool toys and gadgets?
[20:40]Or does he let the little guys stick around? What do you love to read? I read fiction.
[20:45]I love stories. I love I love mystery novels. Sometimes I read action adventure stuff when I want to be
[20:53]brainless. Sometimes I read proper literature. I think my favorite book is probably underworld
[20:58]by Don Delillo, which is a really dense book that sort of captures like the American story.
[21:07]But I really love to read when my kids were little. I really loved to read poetry with them.
[21:12]Shell Silverstein was something we came back to over and over again. The way that he would,
[21:20]again, he would address really deep problematic moments of childhood, but he would make them light.
[21:29]He would let them into the conversation, but then he wouldn't let them win. He wouldn't let them
[21:34]have too much weight. He would let those just be problems that we all deal with. And there is
[21:39]there's a way to get to the other side of them. And so in my work, that's really something I've
[21:44]thought about a lot. Like I really want to be real, but I also want to always emphasize and always
[21:51]land on a place of hope. You carry around a notebook or do you take notes in your phone for
[21:57]when you get inspiration? I do all of the above. I carry around multiple physical notebooks,
[22:02]old-timey paper notebooks. I carry a big one for songwriting, a little one for just ideas.
[22:10]I do utilize the notes section like everyone else now in my phone. I also will record in the
[22:17]recording app on my phone where a lot of times I wake up in the morning and I'll have an idea for
[22:24]a rhyme or an idea for a story. And in the dark, I'll hit the recording app and I'll just mutter
[22:29]something in my my sleepy voice into the phone. And sometimes I even go back and listen to it.
[22:35]What is next after the baby changing station? Is there a sequel? Is there another children's
[22:43]book that you're working on right now? I've been talking about what the next book might be with
[22:49]Megan Tingly, my brilliant editor. I tend to do too much. I've got a solo record called The Misfit
[22:56]that just came out two weeks ago. I'm about to go into the studio and record another album with my
[23:02]long-time band, Old 97s. I do have some pieces of adult fiction that I return to in my most
[23:14]sort of hopeful moments as a writer. My long-time dream is to write a novel. I do wind up writing
[23:20]a lot of essays. But there is another kid's book that I will eventually get to. It's funny
[23:27]right now I've got two or three beginnings. And I don't want to do it unless it's a story I really
[23:33]care about. And one thing I keep coming back to now is aging grandparents. I think there's a story
[23:42]about grandkids and grandparents and how they deal with each other, especially when those
[23:48]grandparents start to enter that stage where they're no longer as capable as they once were.
[23:56]And it can be so heartbreaking. And that's not a story I want to tell, the heartbreaking part of it.
[24:02]But there's something really beautiful about that connection that the little kids have with
[24:10]their grandparents being able to see the generational handoff, like the wisdom that can be imparted.
[24:16]So that's something I think about a lot. I think that if I can find a way to emphasize the joy
[24:21]in that moment, that intergenerational moment, I think that could be a really great story.
[24:30]Now great now I told that somebody's going to steal it.
[24:32]No, I love that idea because I think probably it's one of those issues where adults see that
[24:38]relationship very differently than the child. Like the child doesn't see, like the child doesn't
[24:44]approach it with the same hang-ups as the children of the grandparents. So there's something very
[24:54]pure and innocent in that. Yeah. And as the grandparents become less of the movers within the
[25:01]family dynamic and more of passengers, it's almost like those grandparents are becoming more like
[25:07]those kids. And in a way that bond can even grow deeper during that stage, I think there's a
[25:16]way to do it. To me, that's what's challenging. That's what's exciting. I want to address something
[25:21]that doesn't get addressed enough perhaps. Well, if anyone can do that with the brilliance of
[25:28]pros, it's you. So thank you, Rhett Miller. We appreciate it and thank you for making bedtime and
[25:35]story time quite a bit more entertaining. Thank you so much for having me. This is great. And it's
[25:40]a great podcast. And I really appreciate you doing the interview art. It's so great. Thank you.
[25:46]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[25:51]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for
[25:56]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[26:01]Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:06]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.