Beth Silvers & Sarah Stewart Holland, NOW WHAT?: How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About Basically Everything)
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[0:58]Sarah Stuart Holland and Beth Silvers of Pan Suit Politics are the authors of now what
[1:04]had a move forward when we're divided about basically everything.
[1:07]This is guest hosted by Alicia Fernandez Miranda, whose book my what-if-year comes out in February from Zivi
[1:13]Books.
[1:14]Sarah Stuart Holland and Beth Silvers host the popular podcast Pan Suit Politics,
[1:19]which was named one of 2021's best shows by Apple Podcasts and has been featured in The New York Times,
[1:24]The Atlantic, Good Morning America 3, The Guardian L Magazine, and Parents Magazine.
[1:29]They are also the authors of now what had a move forward when we're divided about basically
[1:33]everything, and I think you're wrong, but I'm listening, a guide to grace-filled political conversations,
[1:38]which was featured on MSNBC's Morning Joe.
[1:41]Sarah and Beth met in college before going their separate ways for law school.
[1:44]Sarah pursued a career in politics as a congressional staffer and campaign aide and
[1:49]Beth practiced law before serving as a human resources executive.
[1:53]Sarah lives in Potica, Kentucky with her spouse Nicholas and children, while Beth lives in Union
[1:59]Kentucky with her spouse and children.
[2:01]Hi everybody, I am so excited to be talking today on this the day after an election day
[2:08]with Sarah Stuart Holland and Beth Silvers, who are the authors of now what?
[2:12]How to move forward when we are divided about basically everything, and they are also the hosts
[2:17]of pantsuit politics, which is an awesome podcast that I just found and like massively deep
[2:22]dive into it. If you see your Scottish analytics going up over the next few weeks, that's me
[2:27]coming in. I'm so glad to have you guys on mom's don't have time to read books.
[2:34]Yeah, thank you for having me to be here.
[2:36]So I just like completely devoured this book. I just I thought your approach was so fascinating,
[2:44]your friendship, which I love and want to know like everything about and also be your friend
[2:48]maybe we're going to see if we could get that happen. You know, I thought that your previous book
[2:52]about grace and how you kind of bring that in to everything that you do and talk about that's
[2:57]going to be like my 2023 mantra I've already decided. And you make a really bold assertion with
[3:02]this book, which is that loneliness is at the center of much of our political polarization,
[3:08]and you're giving people through this really practical tips on how to deal with that. So I think
[3:14]it's just fantastic. And I would love if you guys could start by telling listeners what now
[3:20]what is about. Well, we have another book that we wrote in 2019 called, I think you're wrong,
[3:28]but I'm listening. I got a degree filled political conversations. And we would get people
[3:34]writing in after reading the book and saying, okay, I listened. I still think they're wrong.
[3:41]Now what? And so that's sort of where the genesis of now what came from because the first book
[3:48]was a very high level view of what we learned doing the podcast. But we realized pretty quickly
[3:54]that when you're talking about political disagreement, the context of the relationship is really,
[3:59]really important. So are we talking about your dad? Are we talking about your coworker? Are we
[4:04]talking about how you feel about people who live in Louisiana? Like it just all those different
[4:09]levels of connection are the missing context when you're talking about political polarization.
[4:16]And so now what was an attempt to sort of work through those differing levels of connection and
[4:23]see if we could scratch at the surface of the political conflict and see what was underneath it.
[4:28]I would just add that COVID was a big springboard for this book too because in the way that
[4:35]COVID revealed so many things about our systems and structures and organizations and capacities,
[4:41]it revealed to me and messages from listeners that all of this political conflict families
[4:46]had been experiencing, especially during the Trump era, extended deep into our feelings about
[4:52]whether to attend this wedding or not or how I feel that you wouldn't get a vaccination when my
[4:57]first child was born. And those really personal examples that just flooded our inboxes as the
[5:03]pandemic started raging made us realize this needs to be a deeply personal book because political
[5:10]polarization is deeply personal. There's a lot of academic writing about it, but we really want to
[5:15]say this feels awful and we get it and we want to help you figure out how to walk through that
[5:22]feeling. I love tell you guys broke it down into different categories to do with your co-workers,
[5:29]partner, how to talk to your children, members of your family because I do think that it's one
[5:34]thing to think about feeling polarized or having different opinions from people in the abstract and
[5:39]it is another thing when it's your mother or your beloved aunt or someone in your family who
[5:46]you deeply love but also feel deeply disconnected from because you just you feel like you're on
[5:51]different planets sometimes. And it was a really kind of pragmatic but also human-centered approach,
[5:56]I think, to what is what feels like a problem that seems far away but is actually absolutely not far
[6:02]away at all. Well in a really circular way, everything we're scratching at these different levels
[6:08]of connection below the politics are also political, right? When we're talking about generational
[6:15]conflict, that has all types of political components. When we're talking about the expectations
[6:21]surrounding parenting and marriage, that also has enormous political impact. And so paradoxically
[6:29]when saying, well not everything we fight about in politics is about politics. We circled back to
[6:35]the undercurrents of our political conversations are still political and so we were really trying
[6:41]to tease that apart and say, well, it can all be political but if we tease it apart and we say,
[6:48]at this point, because of COVID or because of race, class, status, there's these other
[6:56]undercurrents in this conversation when we bring attention to those, how can that move our
[7:02]political or policy discussions forward? So tell me a little bit about how the two of you
[7:08]found each other and then found podcasting and writing. What's your love story?
[7:14]We met college together. We were not particularly close in college. We experienced college
[7:23]really differently but we were in the same sorority and we were at a very small liberal arts college
[7:27]where you had a sense of who everyone was on campus at all times. We reconnected like so many
[7:33]people of our age do on Facebook. When Sarah was writing a blog about parenting and she had written
[7:40]very openly about natural childbirth and I was really interested in what she was writing
[7:44]and I reached out for some advice. Let me start at emailing back and forth a little bit. When I was
[7:50]on parental leave with my first daughter, I reached out and asked if I could write some for her blog
[7:54]because I had found the end of the internet nursing. You know how you do Twitter had nothing else for
[7:59]me. I had read all the blogs and I needed something to think about and she generously gave me
[8:05]some space to write for her. I did that again with my second daughter and that was the moment
[8:10]when she said, hey, would you ever want to do a podcast? I was like, I don't know what a podcast is.
[8:16]I am working in the law firm all day and taking care of little babies at night but yes, sure.
[8:20]And so we just started in our closet sitting on the floor with our husbands helping us put the
[8:26]technology together and our conversations were quickly heard by more people than I could even
[8:31]wrap my head around. And since then, we've just committed to showing up twice every week. I
[8:37]grew up on a dairy farm so I often say that making a podcast is like milking the cows. You just
[8:41]have to keep showing up and doing it at a time, whether you feel like it or not and good things
[8:46]happen over the long haul. What year was this when the podcast started? We started in November 2015.
[8:53]So it was right before a gubernatorial election in Kentucky and then just a couple weeks later,
[8:59]Trump descended from that escalator. So it was like we said, let's do a podcast about nuanced political
[9:05]discussion. And the universe said, cool, here is the Trump candidate. We've got something for you.
[9:11]Well, you know, I actually looked this up the other day, Beth, and he actually came down the
[9:15]escalator in June before we like, because I was like, how close in time were these two of it?
[9:18]Did he really? Yeah, it was true. Well, because it was a joke at the time, right? Like,
[9:24]that's really the journey of our podcast is this thing that like was in the background to the
[9:29]foreground and how we were orienting ourselves and navigating that very bizarre moment in American
[9:34]politics as something that seemed outlandish became more and more mainstream. And I think that sort
[9:40]of disorientation that we were helping ourselves and our listeners navigate really became
[9:46]sort of the secret sauce of pencil politics is how to how to deal with the, you know, the
[9:53]political environment and everything feels upside down. How to not just leave stressed and anxious
[9:58]any sort of interaction with the news.
[10:00]is that's what we really want for our listeners,
[10:01]is that they leave our podcast feeling informed
[10:05]but not feeling anxious.
[10:08]You say in the book that it's not an opportunity
[10:11]to solve conflict, but to use it to connect more deeply
[10:14]with the people around you.
[10:16]And I was really struck by both of you speaking very openly
[10:20]about disagreements you had had with your husbands
[10:22]around the election and kind of, you know, politics.
[10:25]So can you talk us through a little bit
[10:28]about how you guys got through that
[10:30]and kind of bringing it to the page
[10:32]and that to the podcast too.
[10:34]Well, my husband is quite a bit more liberal than me.
[10:39]Not a lot, but like enough.
[10:41]And it's more about our personality differences
[10:46]than it is about our political differences.
[10:48]Like I'm just a more enthusiastic,
[10:50]a more like sort of positively oriented.
[10:54]And he is sort of more cynical and harsher
[10:59]when it comes to certain aspects of the political discourse.
[11:03]And so, you know, I think I just recognized
[11:08]and had to recognize that this is just our personality
[11:10]difference, like we're not trying to reach a destination
[11:13]where we decide I'm right or he's wrong or vice versa.
[11:16]But, you know, bringing all those relationship tools
[11:21]to our political discourse was really valuable.
[11:26]And it just taught me that that's true beyond marriage.
[11:29]Like when you're talking with your dad or your coworker,
[11:32]like they're bringing a lot of personal experience
[11:34]and a lot of personality to the discourse
[11:37]when oftentimes we wanna tell ourselves
[11:38]we're just sort of cool and logically debating policy this.
[11:42]So very rarely the case.
[11:43]And marriage is a fertile playground to learn that lesson.
[11:48]My husband is oriented differently than I am toward politics.
[11:51]And sometimes I say he doesn't like politics,
[11:53]but I think that's unfair.
[11:54]I think he just doesn't like elections.
[11:56]And he doesn't like the sort of machinations of Congress.
[11:59]He's very interested in innovation and technology
[12:02]and healthcare infrastructure and all kinds of political things.
[12:05]But he is much more libertarian living than I am.
[12:10]I wouldn't say that he's a full on libertarian
[12:12]because I think that word means a whole host of things.
[12:15]And he does believe in like driver's licensing for it.
[12:19]He's not full, there should be no government.
[12:21]But it led to us actually voting for different people
[12:25]in 2020, which I found excruciating
[12:28]because he picked libertarian candidates
[12:31]almost all the way up and down the ballot.
[12:33]He did not like the Republican choices.
[12:35]He did not like the Democratic choices
[12:37]and that's where he landed.
[12:38]And we live in Kentucky.
[12:39]So no harm, no foul in some ways.
[12:42]We're never in play for the electoral college.
[12:45]But it just, I just found it so frustrating.
[12:49]And when I describe in the book,
[12:51]and I think the reason that we are able
[12:53]to negotiate it in our marriage
[12:55]and that he is able to withstand me discussing it publicly,
[12:58]is that I realized it was excruciating for me
[13:02]not because of the electoral impact.
[13:06]But because I feel like I'm an expert on this stuff
[13:09]and he should respect my expertise and my opinion.
[13:12]And so it felt like a personal dig
[13:14]more than some philosophical contest.
[13:17]I knew at the end of the day,
[13:18]he agreed with me about who would do a better job
[13:21]in these positions.
[13:22]It was just him kind of taking some space for himself,
[13:25]separate from me and my expertise
[13:27]and all the people who fortunately want to know
[13:30]what I think about these matters.
[13:31]So we were really mad for a while.
[13:35]I was mad and he was mad at me for being mad.
[13:38]And then I was mad at him for being mad at me
[13:40]for being mad because marriage is super fun,
[13:42]like that sometimes.
[13:43]And now we joke about it.
[13:45]Like sometimes we'll be talking about inflation or something.
[13:49]And I'll say, well, I bet that Joe Jorgensen
[13:51]could really solve this, don't you?
[13:53]And so we're able to keep the conversation running
[13:58]with a little more lightness than we had
[14:00]in those initial moments.
[14:01]But it was important to me to share that story
[14:03]because I know that that's what people are living.
[14:05]And people are living that to an even,
[14:08]with an even bigger gap with their spouse than I was feeling.
[14:12]And it was really hard.
[14:13]So I wanted to say like, I see you in this hardness.
[14:15]It does suck when you feel the space between you.
[14:19]I mean, especially in a marriage.
[14:21]And I think that you also talked about your daughters
[14:24]and them asking questions that you said
[14:27]kind of makes your stomach hurt
[14:28]because you don't know the answer or it feels too heavy.
[14:31]And then you had this beautiful line.
[14:32]You said, I'm learning to quickly move past that feeling
[14:35]to celebrate that they keep asking.
[14:38]And I loved that.
[14:39]I mean, but then how do you answer their questions
[14:43]for my own selfish desires to want to know
[14:46]I had to answer my own children's questions?
[14:48]I've tried to get much more focused on exactly
[14:51]what they're asking me and making sure
[14:53]that I answer in a way that doesn't feel weird to them
[14:56]because that is what keeps bringing them back
[14:57]that I don't make it feel awkward.
[14:59]I kind of realize it doesn't matter what I say
[15:01]as much as my presentation that this is fine.
[15:04]So as a very recent example of my seven-year-old
[15:06]and I were watching an old episode of The Amazing Race
[15:09]and someone said that this instrument they had to build
[15:12]for one of the challenges was really sexy
[15:14]and my seven-year-old goes, what a sexy mean mom.
[15:17]And I said, oh, she just means it looks great.
[15:18]She's really proud of it.
[15:20]She goes, huh, because my friend said it means
[15:23]when you take off your all your clothes and kiss.
[15:25]And I was like, oh.
[15:28]And so I had that moment where my stomach hurt
[15:30]because I was watching the The Amazing Race.
[15:31]I was almost off duty.
[15:33]It was almost bedtime.
[15:34]Like I was not prepared to be there.
[15:35]Your guard was down exactly.
[15:36]Exactly.
[15:38]So I explained very briefly what sex means.
[15:42]And she stopped and she looked at me and she goes,
[15:45]you make that sound way better than my friends do.
[15:48]And I said, well, that's why you ask me not your friends.
[15:50]When you have these questions, I'm smarter than they are.
[15:52]And then we went back to watching the show.
[15:54]But it is that just that ability to catch myself
[15:58]and say the only thing that matters here
[15:59]is the feeling that I create in her
[16:02]around having asked this question
[16:04]because we will get so many opportunities
[16:06]to talk about all of this.
[16:07]So so many chances to do abortion again with her.
[16:10]So many chances to talk about sexual harassment
[16:13]in the workplace.
[16:14]So many chances to answer these questions.
[16:16]So can I just make this moment a comfortable one for her?
[16:19]That's the only goal I have.
[16:21]I have to add that one time my middle son asked
[16:26]what sex he meant and my oldest son responded.
[16:30]It means pretty and a little bit mean.
[16:32]I was like, yes.
[16:34]It's so accurate.
[16:37]Good job.
[16:38]That's my linguistic child.
[16:40]He had a ridiculous vocabulary for the beginning.
[16:42]But I was like, that's it.
[16:44]I cannot.
[16:45]I'm not a definition.
[16:47]I'm a great job for that one.
[16:48]I'm going to use that one.
[16:49]Thank Griffin for me.
[16:50]I'm taking that one with a little bit mean.
[16:52]And then what about when your kids ask about politics?
[16:56]When they ask about, I mean, my kids ask about climate change
[17:00]all the time, for example.
[17:01]They worry, you know, we're over here in the UK,
[17:03]they worry about the war in Ukraine
[17:05]and what that means for them.
[17:07]Do you take the same approach to those kind of more,
[17:12]I guess macro level political questions
[17:14]that they might come to you with?
[17:16]I think that really depends on the topic.
[17:21]It really depends on the context.
[17:22]They're asking it.
[17:23]But I don't ever punt when it comes to politics,
[17:26]just because that's my expertise.
[17:27]And particularly for my three boys,
[17:29]I want them to see a level of comfort with women
[17:33]and topics that aren't associated with women like politics.
[17:36]And so, you know, we talk about politics.
[17:41]A lot, my middle child has no interest.
[17:43]He is conflict of we didn't.
[17:44]He will jump out the car.
[17:46]If somebody's having an argument about politics,
[17:48]well, at least if you could.
[17:49]So we don't have a lot of conversations with him
[17:51]but my eldest is very political.
[17:53]And I joke that when he always partnered with him,
[17:55]I would say no Alex B. Keaton's allowed,
[17:57]but he is in fact turned me into Alex B. Keaton
[18:00]because it's so liberal.
[18:02]And, you know, especially with climate change,
[18:04]we have a lot of conversations
[18:06]where we have to distinguish the mood
[18:10]or the vibe of the conversation
[18:12]for the reality of the situation.
[18:14]I think for better for worse,
[18:16]there is a sort of Gen Z particular mentality
[18:21]that is very despondent and anxiety
[18:23]written about climate change.
[18:24]And I don't think it reflects the reality
[18:26]of where we are with the climate right now.
[18:28]And so I spent a lot of time
[18:30]sending him articles about the Inflation Reduction Act
[18:33]and sending him podcasts with, you know,
[18:35]longtime climate activists saying
[18:37]we are entering a new, very positive phase
[18:39]of like building out our infrastructure
[18:42]to prevent further decline in the climate
[18:45]and just sort of reorienting that conversation
[18:47]because he kind of got this very like nihilistic thing
[18:50]that I think is the vibe on the internet
[18:53]around young people in this topic.
[18:54]And I get it, I'm not mad.
[18:56]Like I understand how you could end up like that.
[18:58]I think I felt that way around the AIDS crisis
[19:02]growing up, this just sort of,
[19:03]so you just, I think it's the legalistic thinking
[19:05]and the developmentally appropriate sort of way
[19:08]to think about the problems is to have at first
[19:11]this very like all is lost kind of response.
[19:14]And so I push back pretty hard on that
[19:15]with him surrounding climate change.
[19:18]But you know, I try to let him work on me too.
[19:20]I think he definitely has with certain topics
[19:22]in particularly gender.
[19:24]You know, he basically calls everyone day
[19:25]and doesn't worry about pronouns anymore.
[19:28]And so I try to, you know, let that work on me
[19:30]as much as I hope to work on him.
[19:32]Cause I want, I don't wanna be stuck in my ways.
[19:35]I wanna let young people work on me, especially my kids.
[19:37]I love that.
[19:39]The war in Ukraine is a really hard one.
[19:41]We have an echo show in my kitchen.
[19:44]So there's a screen that often shows headlines.
[19:47]And my sixth grader saw some headlines
[19:50]about Russia's invasion of Ukraine
[19:52]and asked me to talk about it with her.
[19:53]And we did for a few minutes and she said,
[19:56]Mom, this feels so awful.
[19:58]It feels like the world is ending.
[20:00]And I said, it does.
[20:02]And for people right there, it is for right now.
[20:05]And they still are going on and we can go on too.
[20:08]And also, whenever things are really terrible to me,
[20:11]I think about the fact that we used to burn smart women alive
[20:14]because we thought they were witches.
[20:16]So we have come a long way and it kind of lighten her mood.
[20:20]And but she'll say that to me back sometimes now,
[20:23]like we've come a long way.
[20:25]Even though we're not perfect,
[20:26]we've come a very long way and I think that's
[20:28]been helpful to us.
[20:31]So I spend a lot of time with my kids.
[20:33]I have 11-year-old twins and explain to them
[20:36]how to determine if a new source is worth their time,
[20:40]worth reading, if it's been researched, going through
[20:43]what fake news looks like and what the different fallacies
[20:46]are because they, even despite all of the controls
[20:50]that I have in every element of their life,
[20:52]they still see a lot.
[20:53]And they sometimes freak out.
[20:56]They'll see a really headline that's absolute click bait.
[21:00]And they'll be like, I just read that there was a bomb
[21:02]in London and I'm like, that did not happen.
[21:03]Let's just take a pause and figure out how to do that.
[21:07]But I think it's not easy when you're doing this with kids.
[21:12]And you do a really good job of talking through your own
[21:15]challenges with that in the book.
[21:18]I want to talk a little bit about the writing process
[21:20]because I think writing as a duo,
[21:21]I'm super curious about it.
[21:23]So how is writing books together kind of the same
[21:27]or different from podcasting together?
[21:29]And how do you guys kind of manage that process
[21:31]between the two of you?
[21:33]We wrote our first book very differently than the second book.
[21:35]The first book was quite different
[21:36]from making the podcast.
[21:38]We got together, came up with an outline,
[21:41]really divided up section by section
[21:43]and then traded drafts and tried hard in the first book
[21:47]to write with one voice.
[21:48]And as we approached the second book, we realized
[21:50]we want this to be more like the podcast.
[21:52]We are two voices.
[21:53]We are two distinct people with distinct experiences
[21:56]and styles and thoughts and worries.
[21:59]And so let's put more of our own voices into this book.
[22:03]So we spent more time in person writing this book together.
[22:08]But we tried less to make it have one voice.
[22:10]We would say, here's kind of the story that I would tell
[22:13]if we were talking about this on the show.
[22:15]OK, I'm going to write that story for this chapter.
[22:19]Here's what you might say and how I might play off of that.
[22:21]OK, that's our outline for this part of it.
[22:23]And we would kind of talk chapter by chapter,
[22:26]go off to our corners to our writing,
[22:28]come back, share it, make any changes,
[22:31]and then move on to the next chapter.
[22:34]And I think that process really did
[22:37]infuse the book with more of the sort of casual
[22:41]and I hope sometimes fun and sometimes poignant
[22:45]and sometimes introspective vibe that the podcast
[22:48]has, like all of the things that we are,
[22:51]I hope translated to the page more with this book
[22:55]because of that process.
[22:57]Yeah, I don't have anything to add.
[22:59]I think that it was much more difficult.
[23:01]This is another place where COVID played a role.
[23:04]Writing this book was much harder than our second book
[23:06]because we were so taxed emotionally and spiritually
[23:10]because of the pandemic.
[23:13]So that also required our presence, which probably
[23:15]is a really beautiful, beautiful metaphor.
[23:18]In a different way than the first book
[23:21]because we just had more space and capacity.
[23:23]But I learned a lot writing this way
[23:26]and writing during that particular time in human history.
[23:28]Do you prefer podcasting or writing?
[23:31]It's like picking children, like in a favorite child.
[23:35]I prefer podcasting.
[23:37]It is not a hard question, but not a hard question for them.
[23:40]No, because I love that we get to react to what's happening
[23:44]on the podcast.
[23:45]We're not trying to project forward what people
[23:47]they're going to care about.
[23:48]We know what they care about today.
[23:50]And in 24 hours, we hope when the podcast comes out.
[23:53]I like that we keep getting to do it again.
[23:56]Writing has such a permanence about it.
[23:59]I enjoy writing.
[24:00]And I am glad we wrote these two books.
[24:02]And I'd also be fine if we didn't do another book
[24:04]because I think what we make on the podcast
[24:07]is the best reflection of the two of us
[24:09]in our relationships.
[24:10]But I am really proud of the work
[24:12]that we have put into these books.
[24:15]It's a harder question for me because writing and talking
[24:20]have just been such like fundamental parts of who I am.
[24:24]I wrote a column all the way through high school,
[24:28]all the way through college.
[24:29]And then I started a blog.
[24:30]I was really active in the blogosphere
[24:33]when we were starting this podcast.
[24:34]So I had a pretty much a daily writing habit.
[24:37]And it feeds something very fundamental in me.
[24:43]And it feels sort of permanent in a way
[24:47]that podcasting does.
[24:48]And I think we're creating something big and important
[24:53]and living in a different way on the podcast
[24:56]that I'm really proud of.
[24:57]But when we wrote our first book and I thought,
[25:00]this is going to go in the Library of Congress.
[25:01]It just landed a little differently.
[25:03]When you publish a work in it,
[25:06]and it will sit there and it will be
[25:10]and it will exist in a little bit different way.
[25:13]And a podcast does.
[25:16]I really love it.
[25:17]And I have to use very, very different parts of my brain.
[25:21]When I'm writing and I can sort of exercise
[25:24]and follow through on thoughts and sort of emotional
[25:27]journeys in a different way that when I'm writing
[25:29]than when I'm podcasting.
[25:31]And so they're just so different to me
[25:34]that it's hard to compare.
[25:36]And they've both been such a fundamental part
[25:39]of who I am for so long.
[25:42]It's, like I said, it feels very Sophie's choice to me.
[25:46]It must be interesting though,
[25:47]because like in the podcast, it kind of comes out
[25:50]and turns around in a very quick period of time.
[25:52]And then you don't get a chance to go back
[25:53]and edit what you've done.
[25:54]Whereas in the book, you know,
[25:56]certainly in my own writing process,
[25:58]there's like a lot of editing.
[26:00]And that takes a lot of time.
[26:02]And that must be, you know, very different experience
[26:05]because the podcast just, it's out and done.
[26:07]Whereas the book you really have to go back
[26:09]and maybe think more reflect more,
[26:11]more opportunities like change your mind about what you said.
[26:14]So I can see those being two really, really different things.
[26:16]But the book is really conversational.
[26:19]Like it really does feel like you're listening
[26:21]to two friends talk to each other.
[26:23]And I think that that definitely comes across
[26:26]in the process.
[26:27]So good job on that, both of you.
[26:29]I think the editing is so valuable too,
[26:31]because you know, I think about the Regina Spector song
[26:33]all the time, you can write, but you can't edit.
[26:35]You know, I think that putting your thoughts out there
[26:38]and there is this sort of ephemeral quality of like,
[26:40]well, I didn't love everything I said on that episode,
[26:41]but who cares?
[26:42]I won't make another one of three days.
[26:44]That is so different than when you're trying to clarify.
[26:47]And look, I think that they are both very important.
[26:52]I read it.
[26:52]I listened to a really interesting interview
[26:54]about writing on a podcast.
[26:55]See, look, it's all tied up together
[26:57]where an author of short stories was just saying like,
[27:00]you know, how you consume something is so different.
[27:04]If you're talking about a short story,
[27:06]we're every word for like months,
[27:09]almost two a year or more,
[27:11]is just dissected and clarified and pushed and pulled
[27:16]that your engagement with that as a reader
[27:18]is so different than like what a 30-second TikTok video
[27:22]that was consumed, that was made without editing quickly
[27:26]to be consumed quickly.
[27:27]You know, like I do think there's something special
[27:29]that happens to our brains when we're reading the written word,
[27:34]and you know, working through stories
[27:36]that went through many, many rounds of editing
[27:37]that is really, really important.
[27:40]The reason I like podcasting is because, you know,
[27:44]as much as you can in an online space,
[27:46]it does push you in a more engaged direction.
[27:50]It's not like I always say like,
[27:51]we don't get a lot of trolls
[27:52]because you can't skim a podcast, right?
[27:54]Like you can't just, you're not flipping through
[27:57]the way you are like a TikTok video
[27:58]or an Instagram post or a Twitter feed, right?
[28:00]Like it's a very different level of engagement
[28:02]with podcasting, which is why I think it's such a special
[28:04]space on the internet, because you kind of get the best
[28:07]of, I don't know if you get the best of both worlds,
[28:09]but I do think you get the best
[28:11]of that online content space can offer,
[28:13]which is that deeper, but broad engagement.
[28:17]It's so true.
[28:19]So when you're not thinking about politics,
[28:22]podcasting about politics, writing about politics,
[28:24]also being moms, what else do you like to read
[28:28]and sort of consume in terms of media?
[28:30]Like what are your favorite podcast favorite books
[28:33]that you're reading right now?
[28:34]Well, it's okay if they are political,
[28:35]but I think maybe you need like a little break sometimes.
[28:39]I'm deep in all of the Trump retrospectives.
[28:42]That's what most of my reading is right now.
[28:44]Okay, so it's still very political.
[28:45]Very political, I've worked through almost,
[28:47]I would not say that's my favorite,
[28:49]but I have found it incredibly helpful
[28:53]to read the edited long form meant
[28:56]to provide a different perspective than my quick take,
[29:01]you know, accounts from reporters
[29:03]who covered that administration.
[29:05]Outside of that, I really love to read poetry.
[29:07]I read at least a poem every day
[29:09]and sit and think about it quite a bit.
[29:11]It's a big part of my life.
[29:14]I love music of all genres.
[29:16]I particularly love going to concerts.
[29:19]So my favorite podcast right now that's not political
[29:22]is 60 songs that explain the 90s
[29:24]where they like do a deep dive on individual songs.
[29:28]A lot of one hit wonders,
[29:29]but a lot of really significant artists too.
[29:32]And the journey that those people took
[29:34]and why that song connects, it's so much fun.
[29:36]Oh my God, I'm so glad that media is very important.
[29:38]So it's so good.
[29:41]You will not regret it.
[29:43]Amazing, Sarah, what about you?
[29:45]Well, the podcast I just cited was the Ezra Klein show,
[29:48]which is I listened to pretty religiously.
[29:50]And the new podcast I'm obsessed with is the C word
[29:52]from Lena Dunham and Elizabeth Bennett.
[29:55]It talks about women who've been called crazy.
[29:58]over the course of history.
[30:00]and sort of revisits their stories.
[30:02]And I adore it.
[30:04]I think it is so smart and so thoughtful
[30:07]and just pushes so many buttons,
[30:09]sort of like pop culture, feminist, political history,
[30:13]like all my, some of my favorite topics.
[30:16]I'm a pretty prolific reader.
[30:18]I read a lot and I read a lot of different things.
[30:21]I am in a phase right now
[30:23]where I like to read older fiction
[30:25]because I can follow sort of the zeitgeist
[30:27]and read all the literary novels right now
[30:30]and then look up and be like,
[30:32]why did I read all those books?
[30:33]I mean, I like to find, but so I've been really trying
[30:37]to make space to read novels, both popular and literary
[30:42]that are not of our time that are older.
[30:44]I read my very first reading King this year.
[30:46]I read Carrie.
[30:47]I'm reading Pat Conroy right now,
[30:50]which my mom always loved.
[30:51]I read the Thornbirds,
[30:52]which is the only book my mother's never read twice.
[30:54]My mom's a librarian, so she's also a big reader.
[30:57]I try to read Jane Austen every year.
[31:00]So I'm really trying to sort of push myself and go back
[31:03]because I think the pace is so different in novels,
[31:08]you know, written before 2000 or, you know,
[31:11]at older than 10 years, I guess I would say
[31:13]that just the pace is different,
[31:14]the way their structure is different.
[31:16]And I like it.
[31:17]It makes it soothing to me.
[31:20]So I've been reading a lot of older fiction
[31:23]and then I read a lot of nonfiction,
[31:25]both relevant to our show and not,
[31:27]I read Maggie Haverman's Confidence Man.
[31:30]It was helpful, I guess, on some level.
[31:34]And I read a lot of sort of, you know,
[31:35]nonfiction about policy or sort of cultural issues
[31:40]in our country and around the globe,
[31:43]be it, you know, mental health or infrastructure,
[31:46]you know, just depending on what I've stumbled upon.
[31:48]But, and then I also, yeah, I'm a big music lover.
[31:52]I'm deep into the Christmas Listening right now.
[31:55]Obviously, yes.
[31:56]And I, you know, I watched a lot of TV
[31:58]in the first 20 years of my life, like a lot.
[32:01]I was an only child TV that was basically my sibling.
[32:04]And I look back at my sort of watching habits
[32:07]in my early 20s and just kind of weep a little bit
[32:10]for that last time.
[32:11]So I watched a little bit of TV,
[32:12]but not a lot of start of the ground.
[32:14]Obviously, because I don't want to feel left out
[32:16]of everything.
[32:17]Now I'm just kidding.
[32:18]That's good preparation for when you come to the UK.
[32:20]Yeah, exactly.
[32:21]I actually am just generally fascinated by the real family.
[32:24]But so I do do a little bit of TV,
[32:26]but not as much as I used to.
[32:28]And so it's finally, it's mainly reading.
[32:30]That's my, my primary.
[32:32]I don't want to listen to a ton of podcasting there
[32:33]because I work from home.
[32:34]So I'm commuting time, but I read a lot.
[32:38]So what is next for you guys?
[32:40]Well, presidential cycle is starting in earnest, you know,
[32:44]as we get into 2023.
[32:46]So we'll be covering that.
[32:47]We're doing a lot more speaking in person next year,
[32:49]which we're really excited about.
[32:51]This sounds fun.
[32:51]I love to be on college campuses or with conferences,
[32:56]organizations just being in a room with people
[32:59]feels really good and feels really different
[33:01]than making the podcast and knowing
[33:03]that people are like talking back to their car speakers,
[33:06]but not being able to see their faces
[33:08]and feel their energy.
[33:09]So we're excited to be out and about.
[33:11]And the other thing that's so great about speaking
[33:13]is that we really get to spend a lot of time in communities.
[33:16]And, you know, we just spent some time in Oklahoma City
[33:19]and had the best time getting to know that city
[33:22]through the people who invited us there.
[33:25]And there's just no substitute for understanding
[33:27]the country that way, being invited in by locals
[33:30]who are really proud of where they live.
[33:33]So that'll be a big part of next year for us.
[33:34]We have a couple of live shows coming up, you know,
[33:37]we're doing one in Orlando in April,
[33:38]but I think it'll be a lot of fun.
[33:40]We're just gonna try to keep doing what we do our way.
[33:43]There's so much media writing out there right now
[33:47]as there's all of these layoffs and consolidations
[33:51]and shuffles and shutdowns.
[33:54]And every piece I read on the media landscape
[33:57]and particularly on the news and politics beat
[34:00]affirms for me, we just need to keep doing what we do our way.
[34:03]And let that be our guiding light
[34:04]and let the chips fall because there is no strategy
[34:08]that will guide you through the tumultuousness
[34:12]of this market.
[34:13]So just keep showing up as Sarah and Beth
[34:16]and let the rest of it figure itself out.
[34:20]Milk your podcasting cows, as you said,
[34:22]that's how you do it.
[34:24]Because I have love chatting with you.
[34:28]We always like to finish up with advice
[34:31]for aspiring writers,
[34:32]but I would also say for aspiring podcasters,
[34:35]what is the one piece of advice you would each give
[34:38]to someone listening to this and thinking,
[34:40]I wanna do that.
[34:42]When I was writing a blog that I wanted to be
[34:45]much more successful than it was
[34:47]and visiting a lot of blogging conferences
[34:49]where people offered advice,
[34:51]it got so old when they would say,
[34:54]just to make content you love.
[34:57]And yet it is the best advice.
[34:59]It is unfortunately, as cliche as it is, the best advice
[35:03]because to be consistent for me
[35:10]require something that I enjoy doing.
[35:12]I have a short attention span.
[35:14]And so if I can't sort of follow my interest
[35:16]and really do and talk about or write about
[35:21]what I'm interested in, I just, I won't do it.
[35:24]And the other piece of the puzzle that I think fell in place
[35:29]for me with the podcast is the advice that like,
[35:34]know your niche, like know how to,
[35:37]like that elevator pitch how to explain
[35:38]what you're doing to other people.
[35:40]Because I think there's, the balance is following
[35:42]what you love until it just becomes you
[35:45]and not something that is available or marketable
[35:49]to other people.
[35:50]And so with Panceoo politics,
[35:52]I think it really became this nice combination of,
[35:56]we love talking to each other and talking to each other
[35:59]was an easy thing to pitch and explain to other people.
[36:02]And so I think if you can find those two,
[36:05]that balance between doing something you love,
[36:07]that is explainable, easily to other people,
[36:11]be it a book or a podcast or whatever,
[36:14]that I'm not, I'm not promising success,
[36:16]but I think that that is a good place to start.
[36:20]Well, continuing my 90s music love,
[36:22]I was such a jewel fan as I'm still such a jewel fan.
[36:26]That was like my number one favorite album.
[36:28]That was like a CD that I absolutely listened
[36:31]to the whole thing so many times.
[36:33]Okay, so you're going to know this
[36:35]then my favorite pieces of view track was I'm sensitive
[36:39]and I'd like to stay that way.
[36:42]Connecting very deeply with me and it remains true.
[36:46]And everything that we do has an opportunity
[36:49]to get your feelings hurt, all of it.
[36:52]Every piece of writing, every podcast,
[36:56]every media appearance, like all of it,
[36:59]it's just like an ocean of invitations.
[37:01]Please come hurt my feelings.
[37:03]And I think that for people who also resonated
[37:07]with that song, I would just say that the lesson
[37:10]for me over the past seven years has been to say that way.
[37:14]To even though it can be really vulnerable
[37:18]and really hard sometimes, there is a ton to learn
[37:21]from that experience.
[37:23]Even just measuring my own reactions.
[37:25]We made a mistake on our last podcast
[37:27]and somebody pointed it out quite publicly this week
[37:29]and it just was like daggers, like I got in bed
[37:32]and I couldn't stop thinking about it.
[37:34]And then I just heard that voice that was like,
[37:36]hey, the more interesting question here is
[37:38]why you can't stop thinking about this,
[37:39]the way you made the mistake.
[37:40]You recorded gazillion hours of audio every week
[37:43]of course you're gonna make mistakes.
[37:44]So why are we still ruminating on this?
[37:47]And I think just recognizing every time you get hurt
[37:51]is like an opportunity to learn something
[37:53]about yourself and grow from it.
[37:54]You're gonna keep making better content because you've done that
[37:57]then if you get really hard and defensive about it.
[38:00]Those are both so fantastic.
[38:02]And I just love this.
[38:04]Thank you guys so much for being on the podcast today.
[38:07]Thanks for talking with us.
[38:08]It was really fun.
[38:11]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[38:13]Don't have time to read books.
[38:14]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[38:16]at Zebioans and at Moms.
[38:18]Don't have time to read books.
[38:19]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zebioans.com
[38:22]and sign up for my virtual book club
[38:24]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[38:26]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[38:28]at Texturesound for the Sound Editing.
[38:30]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[38:32]for providing this fantastic intro
[38:34]and now trim music.