Deanna Raybourn, KILLERS OF A CERTAIN AGE
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[1:49]Dan a rayborn is the author of Killers of a certain age
[1:52]New York Times and USA Today best selling novelist Dan a rayborn is a sixth generation
[1:57]Texan with a degree in English and history from you tsa her novels have been nominated for numerous awards
[2:03]Including the Edgar R. T. reviewer's choice the Agatha to Dylee wins and the last laugh
[2:08]She launched a Victorian mystery series featuring intrepid butterfly hunter Veronica speedwell in 2015
[2:14]This Edgar nominated series is ongoing her first contemporary thriller Killers of a certain age
[2:19]Chronicles the adventures of four female assassins who must band together against the organization that would rather see them dead
[2:26]Then let them retire
[2:27]Welcome to Anna. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss killers of a certain age
[2:34]Thank you so much for having me. I will never think about a cruise ship refrigerator the same way again
[2:42]I know who knew they had so many uses who knew or frankly even like now I'm worried about cruise ships, but anyway, okay
[2:48]Stop you please tell listeners what your book is about and also what inspired you to write it
[2:54]So Killers of a certain age is about four female assassins who are 60 years old
[2:59]They're on the cusp of retirement and they have to band together when they realize the organization
[3:05]They work for would rather see them dead than let them retire and the book team actually start with me
[3:11]It started with the fine folks at my publisher. I write for Berkeley at Penguin Random House and
[3:19]They were apparently having a chat window in the office where they were talking about the fact that they're just are not enough
[3:25]Books about older women doing pick-ass things and so they wanted to know if I would be interested in writing something like that
[3:32]And I said I mean because my books have always been about younger women. They're historical
[3:38]I write about one character at a time. You know usually with a really cool dishy sidekick and a very large kind of found family or blood family
[3:47]So this was going to be a complete departure for me and I was super excited about the idea of doing it
[3:53]And you know they weren't thrown by the fact that I wanted to write 60 year olds
[3:57]And they were not thrown by the fact that I wanted them to be killers
[4:00]But they were super surprised that I wanted them to be set in a contemporary setting
[4:06]That was the part that really really surprised that why when did they when did they think it would be?
[4:11]They thought I would run want to write another historical
[4:14]Okay, and you know the brief was like I could literally do whatever I wanted
[4:17]They just wanted older women doing bad-ass things. That was the entire brief and you know
[4:22]They must have asked me at least three times. Are you sure you want to do contemporary?
[4:27]And I was like yes, please and to their everlasting credit
[4:30]They let me do it
[4:31]But which I think a lot of publishers probably would not have but they did and I loved it
[4:37]It was so much fun to write and
[4:40]The hardest thing I've ever written because I've not done contemporary before
[4:43]I had to find that contemporary voice and that was that was quite an ordeal
[4:48]But got there in the end and it was just it was an absolute blast to write
[4:53]It seemed like fun. There was like a wink and a nod. I feel like to
[4:56]All of it, you know like
[4:58]Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely
[5:00]The whole point is for readers to have fun with it and just you know
[5:03]Take a few hours out of your day
[5:05]Whatever you've got going on
[5:07]You know whether you're in carline picking up the kids from school or you've got a commute to work or
[5:11]You know, you're lucky enough to be sitting on a beach somewhere
[5:13]You know
[5:14]Just a few hours out of your day to read this and kind of forget about whatever is stressing you out and just live vicariously as
[5:22]People who kind of deserve to get murdered get bumped off. Yeah, it's awesome
[5:27]This feels very movie to me very cinematic. I should say
[5:32]Like I that's that's the hope that's that
[5:35]Yeah
[5:37]So interestingly you include the backstory with the relationships that a lot of the women are in and
[5:43]I found that to be really interesting too
[5:45]So Helen is is grieving the loss of her husband
[5:48]and is sort of shrinking in on herself and the girls are trying to rally around her
[5:54]To help and then you have another character who was in a lesbian relationship with her she's very Alice
[6:00]Okay, Mary Alice and her wife Akiko Akiko Akiko. I thought I was gonna say kimono
[6:05]But I was like that's not right Akiko and how this job put stress on their relationship too because she's always taking off
[6:12]And so you bring a new dimension to
[6:15]Real dimension not new. I mean, you're just introducing the characters
[6:18]Tell me about their backstories their relationships and and what you're highlighting with each of them and how that is important in this group of form
[6:27]We know when you look at books or TV series that have quartets of women
[6:33]And there are a lot of you know, it starts with little women when we're kids
[6:37]We read this book and then I was an 80s teen so I saw
[6:41]Living single and golden girls and you know a decade later
[6:45]We had sex in the city and I don't know what all the cool kids are watching now
[6:49]But there's probably some show with a quartet of you know women in it
[6:53]Anytime you look at a project that's got four women in it
[6:56]They seem to fall into these kind of archetypal roles one of the characters will be a nurturer one will be a wild child
[7:03]Which we certainly see with Natalie, you know, she's she's our killer who's been married three or four times and you know
[7:10]She's a serial monogamous and she's into mixology and you know
[7:13]She just will never say no to a good party and then you'll have a character who steps up to take a leadership role
[7:19]She doesn't particularly want to but she'll do it because she's good at it and somebody has to and that's Billy
[7:26]That's the character
[7:28]Kinda drives the narrative. We see the contemporary scenes through Billy's eyes and we see flashbacks scenes to
[7:35]When they were first recruited when they first started working together and what those early missions looked like because
[7:41]The book opens with their very first mission and it's it kind of goes to hell
[7:46]Really really fast and they've got to
[7:49]You know scramble and think on their feet and figure out how to salvage this mission
[7:52]This mission and Billy's the one who really kind of steps up into that leadership role
[7:57]Even though that's not how she thinks of herself and that's not something she would have necessarily chosen to do
[8:03]But it's what she's good at and you know like you said
[8:06]We've got Helen who 40 years on, you know because this friendship has endured this working relationship has lasted for four decades
[8:14]We've got Helen who was happily married and is grieving the loss of her husband Billy has never married
[8:21]But you know, there's kind of the one who got away
[8:24]Because she told him to and then, you know, Natalie with her serial marriages
[8:28]And now we've got Mary Alice who is very little more than a newly wedged
[8:32]She's only you know been been married about three years
[8:35]And so we see them all at various different stages in their relationship journeys
[8:40]But they're all in the same place with regard to their relationship with each other
[8:44]Which is I've known you for 40 years you push all my buttons
[8:49]But I would literally take a bullet for you
[8:52]And and sometimes they actually have so you know they they trust each other and they know each other in a way that
[8:59]They don't trust or know anybody else in their lives
[9:03]And so to me that makes for just this really rock solid friendship where they shorthand a lot of things
[9:09]You know because if you've known somebody since you were 20 years old
[9:13]They know things about you that nobody else knows
[9:16]And they know how to get right under your skin and that's what that's what they do for each other
[9:21]And so that playing with that dynamic was was a great deal of fun because that's another thing that I haven't done a lot of
[9:28]You know having usually riding a strong central character and just a lot of supporting characters
[9:33]It's a very different dynamic than looking at this really incredibly strong four-way friendship
[9:39]That has meant so much to these women throughout their lives
[9:43]I think actually I'm writing this novel and I do have four friends
[9:47]And now I'm like oh my gosh, maybe I'm just like hopping the golden girls in sex in the city
[9:51]Like maybe it's like a and you know, I didn't mean to do it, but I'm like oh, okay
[9:56]I do have like the one who's wild anyway, whatever
[9:59]Maybe now I have to go back
[10:00]But I'm telling you, it's archetypes.
[10:02]Man, you look back and you look at little women
[10:05]and you're like, oh, there's Joe who's gonna take charge
[10:08]when nobody else really can.
[10:10]You've got Meg who's gonna be kindly and nurturing
[10:14]and take care of the ones who need a little help.
[10:19]And then you've got Amy, again, wild child.
[10:22]And then you always have the one who just kind of drifts
[10:25]so long and is maybe kind of a still water's running
[10:30]deep situation.
[10:31]Yeah.
[10:32]So, you know, another thing that the book touches on
[10:36]that I really related to, even though I'm not,
[10:39]you know, I'm actually, well, let me say this again.
[10:41]Another thing I loved was how you deal with this notion
[10:46]of identity and if you're not in your job anymore
[10:49]or you're retiring, who really argue
[10:51]and I know Billy is struggling with that
[10:53]and it's part of perhaps why everybody gets dragged in.
[10:57]I mean, it wasn't exactly what they wanted to happen
[11:00]on this voyage, but what does it mean?
[11:03]What does it mean to even retire anymore, right?
[11:07]Not everybody even gets to retire.
[11:10]Who is exactly how people,
[11:13]no, and people who do retire.
[11:14]I mean, how many of them are retiring from jobs
[11:16]that they've had for 40 years working
[11:18]for the same organization?
[11:19]Like, that's not really a thing anymore.
[11:22]And so I feel like if you have been in that situation,
[11:25]then here comes this entire existential crisis
[11:29]along with it where you're leaving this job
[11:32]that has been a part of you,
[11:33]literally since you were 20 years old.
[11:34]This is what, you know, because I do feel
[11:37]there's something slightly, you know,
[11:39]kind of underhanded about the fact that they were recruited
[11:42]when they were as young as they were
[11:44]and kind of shaped into being who they are,
[11:47]who knows what their lives would have turned out to be
[11:50]if they hadn't been, you know, gotten at when they were 20.
[11:54]And they all signed on willingly.
[11:55]They all wanted to do this.
[11:56]You know, we see the reasons in the book
[11:59]for why each one of them wanted to pursue
[12:01]a career in assassination.
[12:04]But I mean, that has to shape you
[12:07]when you're doing that kind of work,
[12:09]when you're keeping those kind of secrets.
[12:11]So how does it shape you?
[12:12]And then when you're done with it, who are you?
[12:15]Mm-hmm.
[12:16]Who are you?
[12:17]Because this is who you've been for 40 years
[12:19]and now you've got to answer that question.
[12:21]And I feel like, you know,
[12:22]some of them are a little more equipped to handle that.
[12:25]Plus, you know, you have not just who are you after you've lost
[12:30]or are in the process of losing this job
[12:32]that has defined you, but, you know, for Helen,
[12:34]who am I now that this marriage is gone?
[12:37]And that role has been taken away.
[12:40]Or, you know, Natalie doesn't currently have a man on the strength.
[12:44]So who is she as a single woman?
[12:47]When she's accustomed to, you know,
[12:49]always having some sort of dalliance going on.
[12:51]And with Mary Alice settling into a marriage
[12:55]with someone who literally does not know what she does for a living.
[12:59]You know, was that a wise move, Mary Alice?
[13:02]Should you perhaps have told her at some point
[13:05]what you do for a living?
[13:06]So they, I mean, they've all got things
[13:08]that they're wrestling with.
[13:08]But, you know, in the meantime,
[13:10]they've got people to kill.
[13:11]Haha.
[13:13]I mean, really, when you think about it,
[13:14]that is what an empty nesting is.
[13:17]It's retirement.
[13:18]It's a forced retirement from a job that you chose 20 years
[13:22]before 18 years before.
[13:24]And you might not want it to end,
[13:26]but it comes to an end and you can't really get it back.
[13:28]And I think, and it's all with your identity
[13:31]and everything is wrapped up in it.
[13:33]And he's got a skill set that might not necessarily translate
[13:36]to anything else that you want to do.
[13:39]Yeah.
[13:40]So whether you're a mom, whether you're a killer,
[13:43]you know, you've got the same.
[13:44]You have these skills that might not be appreciated.
[13:47]So it is hard, especially as people live longer and longer.
[13:51]So I don't know really what the answer is.
[13:52]Is the answer always to find the next new thing?
[13:55]Be right or read?
[13:57]I don't know.
[13:58]What do you think?
[14:00]I mean, you know, for me, it's always going to be storytelling.
[14:04]And I mean, and I've had the internet
[14:06]because my daughter's 27 about to turn 28.
[14:09]So I've done the mom thing.
[14:11]And now I'm doing the, you know,
[14:13]parent of a grown child.
[14:14]I'm a mother-in-law, you know,
[14:16]so it is a very different role.
[14:18]And, you know, kind of being on the other end of it now
[14:22]and going, oh, okay.
[14:23]So the years when they need you, need you, need you, are over.
[14:28]And then what do you do with that time?
[14:30]What do you do with that, you know,
[14:31]that sense of being completely necessary to someone
[14:36]and the role changes.
[14:37]And for me, it's changed in wonderful and amazing ways.
[14:40]And I have loved those transitions.
[14:43]But I know for a lot of people,
[14:44]that's a really, really tricky, tricky thing to get through.
[14:47]And so that was, that was kind of what I put my four killers through.
[14:54]Are these characters returning?
[14:55]Do you have plans for them in any way?
[14:58]Or any subset, any subset of them?
[15:01]All I can tell you is people are talking
[15:03]and discussions are being had.
[15:06]That's good.
[15:07]It's cryptic.
[15:08]It's a cryptic and unsatisfying answer.
[15:10]And I'm very sorry, Zippy.
[15:12]I kind of, I understand.
[15:13]I get it.
[15:14]It's fine.
[15:15]Well, I have a feeling this is not the end of these characters.
[15:17]I'll just leave.
[15:18]We'll just throw that to the universe.
[15:20]That sounds like a lovely thing to throw at it.
[15:24]But where, like, where are you from?
[15:26]How did you even get involved in writing at all?
[15:28]I know you were picked for this project, which is so cool.
[15:31]But where did this come from?
[15:33]Did you always want to do this?
[15:34]Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[15:36]I'm a sixth generation Texan on my mom's side.
[15:39]My dad's side, his mother was English.
[15:42]And so I had all these like unusual English children's books
[15:47]that I read when I was growing up.
[15:48]So when I started writing, I started publishing.
[15:51]My novels have all been set in Britain.
[15:55]They feature British characters.
[15:56]So that was another huge departure for me,
[15:58]is writing characters because I think only one other time
[16:02]have I ever written American characters.
[16:05]And so that was another kind of change of voice,
[16:08]change of perspective, that I kind of had to navigate,
[16:12]which was great fun.
[16:13]I mean, I loved it.
[16:14]It was just, it was a big change.
[16:16]I wrote, yeah, I was always going to be a storyteller.
[16:19]Always.
[16:20]I remember being super excited
[16:22]when I learned how to print because I could get stories
[16:25]out of my head and onto paper.
[16:28]And I was like, oh, this is the greatest thing ever.
[16:30]And I double majored in college in English and history
[16:34]because I knew I wanted to write historical fiction.
[16:36]And I wrote my first novel when I was 23.
[16:39]And it's in a box in my attic because it's not good.
[16:42]But it took me 14 years after that to get published.
[16:46]But I've been working and publishing ever since then.
[16:51]And I have been very, very lucky.
[16:53]And this project came at exactly kind of having that wide open
[16:59]brief just, hey, do you want to write something
[17:02]cool about older women?
[17:03]And then being able just to do whatever I wanted was a
[17:06]huge risk that just came at the perfect time
[17:10]because I had never told anybody that I wanted to write a
[17:13]contemporary.
[17:14]That was something I was sitting on until I had just the right
[17:17]thing to do to take that risk with.
[17:19]And then when this idea cropped up,
[17:22]I, everything just clicked into place.
[17:24]And I was like, this is the one to do that with.
[17:27]This is the time to kind of, you know,
[17:28]walk that tight rope and just scare the bejesus out of myself.
[17:32]Which I love to do when I work.
[17:34]Like I'd love to scare myself when I work.
[17:36]So this is the time to do that.
[17:38]Do you have like a little posy like this too?
[17:41]Have you're like three best friends?
[17:44]And no, not to this extent where there are women in my life
[17:49]who are and a couple of men who are just incredibly supportive
[17:55]and they always have my back and they're the ones who don't
[17:59]flinch when I say, you know, hey, I've got to kill somebody
[18:02]on paper. So how does this strike you?
[18:06]And I, you know, I had a couple of writer friends
[18:09]that I would moan to and when this all got to be a little too
[18:13]much and a little too scary.
[18:15]And I had one pal in particular who texted me one day when I was
[18:20]really having kind of a crisis of confidence.
[18:22]And just texted me and said, if you're writing
[18:24]authentically, you cannot fail.
[18:26]And so I printed that out and taped it to my monitor and just
[18:30]carried on. So I love that.
[18:34]Yeah. As long as you're having fun doing it,
[18:36]other people have fun reading it.
[18:38]Right. That, you know, that's what it came down to.
[18:39]You know, anytime I had choices to make in kind of
[18:43]structuring a book or choosing who these characters were and how they
[18:46]were going to react in a specific situation,
[18:49]I always defaulted to, well, what's going to be the most fun to write?
[18:52]Because whatever's the most fun to write is going to be the most fun to
[18:55]read. And that, you know, like I told you at the beginning of
[18:57]this chat, that was the point was for people to have fun.
[19:01]Do you think that there is a killer in each of us?
[19:05]I know when, when Billy was being recruited.
[19:08]And she's like, okay, I guess I'll be a killer now.
[19:11]And the man was like, oh, you were already a killer.
[19:13]We just had to get you to admit or something like that.
[19:16]Yeah. No. I think there are some people who are absolutely not capable
[19:20]of it at all. But I, I think far more people are capable of it than
[19:25]actually do it. And, and I think different people would have
[19:27]different motivations. A lot of mothers would
[19:31]kill to protect their children. You know, like that's just a primal thing.
[19:35]And so I, I think a lot of it depends on circumstances and
[19:39]and motives and whatnot. Yeah, that's it.
[19:42]Because I was like, well, I definitely wouldn't kill and you're like,
[19:44]mothers and I was like, well, yeah, of course, I would like kill.
[19:46]Exactly. And like you think, oh, that's such a cynical thing to say that
[19:50]so many people would be killers and you go, but what about your kids?
[19:53]And then every, everybody goes, oh, well, that's a, that's a gimme.
[19:57]Of course, I'd kill to protect my kids. So.
[20:00]I remember growing up, my mom was always like, you know, I would die for you.
[20:05]I would, you know, if there was a car coming, like, I would step in front and I would
[20:09]just kill my, you know, I would put myself and I always felt like I had so much responsibility
[20:13]knowing that.
[20:14]Jerry, like, what was I supposed to do with that?
[20:16]Like, okay, well, thank you.
[20:18]Like, I didn't know quite what to make of that, but anyway, it's the same as the killing
[20:24]for someone else, I think.
[20:25]Yeah.
[20:26]Good to know.
[20:27]And then you have kids and you're like, oh, okay, I get it now.
[20:29]Yeah.
[20:30]Now I understand.
[20:31]Yeah.
[20:32]What do you like to read?
[20:34]Oh, you know, I, I love to read biography in memoir, especially the really chatty kind.
[20:40]I love to read, you know, celebrity memoir and I, and I have just started a couple of years
[20:47]ago reading thrillers because I'm a huge chicken and I never would read them and that changed
[20:52]a couple of years ago.
[20:53]I was going on a beach trip and saw a book and I just fell in love with the cover and
[20:58]which, you know, it's shallow, but we do that.
[21:01]I looked at the cover and said, I have to read this book and it was a beautiful Nigerian
[21:06]girl with great big green sassy green sunglasses on and the reflection in the sunglasses
[21:11]was a butcher knife and the title was my sister, the serial killer.
[21:15]Yes.
[21:16]Are you Jessica something?
[21:17]Oh, you can break away and it was phenomenal.
[21:20]And so I realized, okay, I can read thrillers, I just need them to be like domestic thrillers.
[21:25]So I started off with domestic thrillers and, you know, I, I branched out slowly but surely
[21:30]from there, but that was, that was like my gateway thriller that got me into.
[21:34]And so recently, I just finished Amina Octar's Kiznet, which is a thriller that set
[21:40]in the Desert Southwest and neuro, a spa and wellness center.
[21:45]And you know, I center a message on Twitter saying, oh my God, it's been two weeks
[21:49]and I'm just thinking about this book.
[21:50]It's still creeping me out and she's like, sorry, not sorry.
[21:54]But I am so, I'm definitely still thinking about that book.
[21:58]So for your next project, these ladies aside for the moment, are you going back to historical?
[22:04]Are you going to stay contemporary or are you doing both?
[22:06]What are you thinking?
[22:07]I have just turned in the eighth book in my Victorian mystery series of Veronica Speedwell
[22:13]series, getting ready to start book nine.
[22:15]And I do actually have another historical project or a contemporary project or two that
[22:20]I'd like to try.
[22:21]So we will see what happens.
[22:24]How long does it take for you to whip out each of these books?
[22:26]You're making it sound like it's like, so fast.
[22:31]My sweet spot is about nine months.
[22:33]Two a year just feels like too much to me and one a year is not enough.
[22:37]So nine months is kind of where I'm most comfortable.
[22:40]It gives you time to, I don't love to write when I have to promote.
[22:44]I like to be able to focus on one thing at a time because there's such different skill
[22:48]sets being a writer and being an author.
[22:50]And so I really like to compromise and not.
[22:54]So while I'm doing all of the promotion for killers of a certain age, like my Veronica
[22:59]Speedwell is like, girlfriend is in the closet with the door locked.
[23:03]I'm not even thinking about her right now.
[23:06]And in a couple weeks when everything slows down, I'll buckle down and start writing
[23:09]book nine in that series.
[23:11]Amazing.
[23:12]Would you go, have you gone on a cruise?
[23:14]Would you go on a cruise?
[23:16]I went on one cruise and that was more than 30 years ago.
[23:23]And like now, absolutely not.
[23:25]Absolutely not.
[23:26]But I mean, there's just, like you walk around the ship and you're thinking, God, there's
[23:30]so many ways to kill people here, which I mean, I do that.
[23:33]I get where the average person probably doesn't do that, but you know, I mean, come
[23:38]on.
[23:39]Okay.
[23:40]Definitely not going on a cruise ship with you.
[23:44]That's for sure.
[23:45]I've never actually pitched anybody overboard.
[23:47]I just like to work through.
[23:48]That is not a huge logistics.
[23:51]Oh, my goodness.
[23:56]Okay.
[23:57]I like, I like see a radical killing.
[23:59]I would not do it.
[24:00]I would not do it in person.
[24:01]I feel obliged to issue that disclaimers, I mean, because you look very nervous.
[24:05]I am a little scared to even be on Zoom with you.
[24:08]I'm glad you didn't come over.
[24:09]No, I'm kidding.
[24:10]It's fine.
[24:11]But I do actually have your address.
[24:13]That's true.
[24:14]That's even worse.
[24:16]It's fine.
[24:18]It's fine.
[24:20]What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[24:23]Listen to less advice from established authors.
[24:25]You know more than you think you do.
[24:27]You know more than you think you do.
[24:29]You are the only one who knows what it means to write your book.
[24:32]And you know, a lot of times it's very, very easy to get stuck in thinking that because
[24:37]someone has published books, because they have a successful career going that they know
[24:41]everything there is to know about publishing, but they don't know how to publish your
[24:44]book.
[24:45]You know how to do that.
[24:48]And so that is a good place to put your focus.
[24:53]It's very easy to think that you have to go to a lot of discussions and you have to
[24:57]read a lot of how-to books and you have to assemble every little piece of the writing
[25:01]advice that you possibly can before you can start.
[25:05]And that's not true.
[25:06]The most important thing is just getting stuck down on the page and going from there.
[25:10]Because once it's on the page, you can do anything with it.
[25:12]But until it gets on the page, it's not a book.
[25:16]Okay.
[25:17]Thank you so much, Dan.
[25:20]That was so fun.
[25:21]Thanks for coming up.
[25:22]Thank you.
[25:23]Thank you so much for having me, Zuri.
[25:25]You're never going to invite me back.
[25:26]I'm not.
[25:27]I'm not.
[25:28]I'm fine.
[25:29]I know.
[25:30]I know.
[25:31]I'm going to have a restraining order against you.
[25:32]But other than that, I get it.
[25:33]I totally get it.
[25:34]I support you.
[25:35]All right.
[25:36]Well, thanks so much.
[25:38]Thank you.
[25:39]Bye-bye.
[25:41]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:45]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens, and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:50]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[25:54]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:57]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[26:01]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.