Vanessa Riley, SISTER MOTHER WARRIOR: A Novel
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[1:49]Vanessa Riley is the author of sister Mother Warrior a novel in addition to being a novelist
[1:54]Vanessa Riley holds a doctorate in mechanical engineering and a master's in industrial engineering and engineering management from Stanford University
[2:02]She earned her BS in MS in mechanical engineering from Penn State
[2:06]She currently juggles mothering a teen cooking for her military management and speaking at women's and STEM events
[2:12]She loves baking her Trinidadian grandma's cake recipes and collecting Irish crochet lace
[2:17]You can catch her writing from the comfort of her porch in Georgia with a cup of Earl Grey tea
[2:22]Riley lives in Atlanta
[2:24]Welcome Vanessa. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss
[2:28]Oh my gosh, all your recent work. You so much going on. I didn't know where to start. So welcome
[2:33]Thank you, Zibi. It's a pleasure to be here
[2:36]Okay, well, let's start with murder and Westminster your latest book. So exciting
[2:41]I think you're you're going to reach for it now
[2:44]There it is
[2:47]Can you tell us there is a little about this and I read about your inspiration for it
[2:51]But but share more details about your your childhood fascination with mystery and all that and so yes
[2:58]So my mom this was our thing
[3:00]Every Sunday night we would watch murder. She wrote we watch we catch matlock on Tuesdays
[3:07]I think it was
[3:08]It was it was our thing growing up and personally I always thought Jessica Fleischer was a serial killer
[3:14]It was playing on the fact that they were weak-minded narcissists out here and they just wanted their moment in the sense
[3:20]So they confess I thought how can you have somebody die everywhere she goes, but I digress
[3:28]Yeah, it's a correlation causation. I don't know a little suspicious. Yeah, you know
[3:33]It's probably the engineer mind and me is like one in one equals two
[3:37]but I
[3:39]Research from 1750 to 1830. I am completely enamored with London the West Indies
[3:46]And you know, I've Sherlock Holmes and Diana Rayburn and Sherry Thomas. It's just this is I was like
[3:53]I was always love to do a mystery
[3:56]And I had read this really interesting fact that because I just finished all this research for sister mother warrior
[4:02]That when the Haitian Revolution succeeded all the abolition movements in the world stop
[4:07]And I was like no way that that you know Wilbur William Wilbur forest in my Elijah McCauley Thomas Clarkson
[4:14]Actually true because I started digging into the the UK archives and looking at newspaper clip things and all these sorts of things
[4:21]That was absolutely true
[4:23]And I was like what does a person do because they're free people of color
[4:28]In London born in London or they've immigrated to London
[4:32]What are they doing during this moment where they can have this pride in a colony now being free from France because everybody hated France back
[4:43]What do you do and I just combined all the world together and so that's why you get lady worthy
[4:47]She's a woman of privilege
[4:49]But she's also a mixed race
[4:51]So she's got Scottish and Jamaican heritage
[4:54]And she wants to use her privilege for good, but people keep dying around her interesting. Yes
[5:01]And so she's fussing with her neighbor who might be he's a navy hero
[5:05]Retired neighborhood slightly
[5:07]Maybe sexy Moriarty artist Moriarty type kind of guy
[5:11]But they're fussing because her terrier is being terrorized by his two gray house
[5:17]No
[5:19]But she can't see anything other because little teacup would just never you know, disobey
[5:24]So he's erected this fence between the two and and they every time they meet at the fence
[5:29]They have some words exchange
[5:31]Well this time when they meet at the fence the neighbors of strange wife is found dead on the fence
[5:35]but on her side of the fence
[5:38]And in Abby's mind, she's like who's gonna believe me versus a navy hero
[5:42]So they end up working together to figure out who done it
[5:45]And so it's my first introduction. I hope it's going to be a long series lady-worthy murder Westminster
[5:51]Amazing. That's so exciting. Did your mom read it?
[5:55]My mom passed away. Oh, no. I'm sorry
[5:58]You know, she was she was my first editor. She was just
[6:02]You don't have that person in your corner who just believes in you
[6:07]Even when you screw up
[6:10]But when you screw up, she's the first to tell you you screwed up and you know
[6:14]See you to your room and all those wonderful mom chores and things like that
[6:18]But she would be so proud to see where we come
[6:22]So I'm excited. I dedicate almost every other book to her
[6:26]Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that. It's okay. For a reason. I feel terrible
[6:31]I feel that way about my grandmother who passed away
[6:34]It must have been two years not even two years now
[6:37]But just to have that support the like
[6:40]And even when I'm doing things that I know she would like disapprove of
[6:44]Right every soften. I'm like, I'm sorry. Go. I know you know
[6:48]You know, I know I should be exercising or you know, whatever it is that I know should give me a hard time about
[6:53]You know, but then just wanting so much to show
[6:56]Just show someone who's like, she was such a supporter of mine for so anyway
[6:59]I totally get it and anyway
[7:00]It's nice that you have a person right to be reading for you. It's even without them now
[7:06]Anyway, I actually and and when island queen was written up in New York Times
[7:11]Actually went to the gravesite with the paper
[7:15]I totally understand that
[7:17]And so
[7:19]As a young grandma my mom knew they're with us as we as we move forward. No
[7:25]And you also, obviously, you have a huge support in your husband even married 26 years
[7:30]How is you and you still look so happy in your pictures? You posted on instagram by your anniversary
[7:35]And I'm like how how did you what's the secret there? Tell me a little bit about that the secret to 26 half a year's
[7:43]Happy years is love me love my dog. Oh, okay. So we don't have dogs, but the concept is
[7:50]You are marrying the person so you know their dreams
[7:54]You know their weaknesses their failures and you accept it. You're not trying to go in this to change it
[8:00]Because people don't change sometimes they they get a little better
[8:04]Sometimes they get a little worse
[8:07]But they don't change every people are set were adults kind of big and so I knew he loved aviation
[8:14]I knew that he was a military man even though at the time we met he was working for united
[8:20]He I knew it was gonna go back in I saw it coming and he loves his military life and so he knew that I'm a workaholic
[8:29]He knows that I will close myself off into my office and you won't see me for days just slide food and and bring coffee
[8:39]Every but yeah coffee every day is a successful marriage, but he just gets me and I get him and we you can
[8:47]You still laugh you find something new every day to laugh at and you make fun of yourselves and
[8:54]Just have a good time
[8:55]He's like my buddy my friend and if you ever want to know anything about astrology or moon sightings and things like that
[9:02]You best your guy right there
[9:05]Not have thought okay
[9:08]Amazing tell me more about how you got into writing when you came at it as like basically as a PhD
[9:15]Scientist right tell me your whole background and how you got into this so
[9:20]In school. I was a nerd girl right so I love western civilization
[9:25]You know the Greeks the Romans that you know all these different pieces of the world and I was also good at math
[9:32]I'm on the math team and these sorts of things and I'm winning competitions in both
[9:37]And my mom once again mom mom says we're down. She's like baby
[9:41]You always need to be able to pay your bills
[9:44]And you know there wasn't a career or at least many career options for
[9:49]Someone who looks like me coming from the south
[9:52]You just didn't see it. Yeah, you have to go back a couple generations before you get the zorneal hostins and the people who were doing
[10:00]this day, you know, with the typewriters in their day after day, you know, you're probably still
[10:05]drinking coffee. But we didn't see it. But we did start seeing opportunities at NASA and all these,
[10:11]you know, the car companies, the geomoders, et cetera, et cetera. So it made a completely logical
[10:17]sense to go into words engineering. And she was absolutely right. Engineering will pay your bills.
[10:23]So all you kids out there struggling engineering. But when you have a passion for something,
[10:30]it doesn't go away. And I can remember, you know, several, one of my supervisors like,
[10:35]Vanessa, this die cast manufacturing report is way too interesting.
[10:41]We just need a facts girl. It's there. And I had a difficult pregnancy.
[10:48]I am the doctor told me to sit my little behind down and to focus. And I do a million things
[10:54]a day. I cannot still. And my husband, your husband went up to the attic, brought boxes,
[10:59]found some of my journals that I was had as a young girl. And I was like, you know, I know more stuff.
[11:05]I got more degrees now. I could do this better. And of course, no, that's not the case. It's going
[11:11]but it was a great discovery journey. And it was like, I was finding me again, you know, because it
[11:16]exciting to write crafty stories, you know, as you're changing diapers and all those
[11:20]sorts of, you know, you want something else to do with the baby finally goes to sleep. And
[11:24]and so I just began writing again. And it was an amazing process. I had to learn new things
[11:31]because the world changed from story structure and these sorts of things. And it's been an
[11:36]exciting ride. Wow. It's too bad. There is no path. Like, I was like, you know, I was like,
[11:42]okay, I want to be a writer. Now what? No. Okay, marketing. There's no good consistent jobs
[11:51]where you can use that skill. And yet it is like one of them, like a really highly valued skill.
[11:56]So it doesn't really make sense. I'm not sure what the answer is there, but I definitely could
[11:59]not have hacked it for a single day in an engineering class, let alone professions. At least you
[12:05]know, you had all of that to fall back on. But how did you how did you make that switch? Like,
[12:10]did you ever go back after your pregnancy? Or you just went? Okay. So when did you? I was
[12:16]late at night. So I would do, you know, I'd get to everybody in bed, luckily my husband goes
[12:20]a bit really early. And he learned early on that I do not go to bed at the same time. He tried that
[12:25]for the first year. So everybody would be in bed. And so from 10 to 2, I was my writing time.
[12:35]Oh my gosh. I'm a night owl. And so just keep writing and writing and writing. And so
[12:41]I got my first book was traditionally published. And you know, this was 2013. And the markets were
[12:49]I wasn't writing about contemporary things. I wasn't writing of church dramas. I wasn't writing
[12:56]and all these different things are wonderful. I wasn't writing that. I was writing about people
[13:01]in 1806 in England and things like this. And the Caribbean, you know, it's my father's from
[13:08]Trinidad to Baga. So I'm bringing the stories used to tell me into some of these things.
[13:14]There wasn't really much of an appetite publishing for that. So books two through
[13:21]probably 15 were independently published. People need to realize and I think you stress this in
[13:26]your podcast. It's a business. You know, it's a business. And a publisher is going to invest when
[13:31]they believe that other people are going to buy the book and that they know how to mark. Because
[13:35]sometimes they other people buy it. They don't know how to reach that those people. So I invested
[13:41]in myself and I indie published and I found my audience and I was like, yeah, not the only one
[13:48]likes who likes history and like, you know, regency era and all these different things. And we
[13:55]you know, started gaining a following and then lo and behold, publishers start knocking back on that door.
[14:01]I don't know how to happen. And when I went in Tangled Publishing, which is part of a million,
[14:07]I was, you know, reviewed in the NPR. It was reviewed in a weekly Washington Post. And so,
[14:16]you know, my voice, my stories found an audience in publishing found a way to enhance what I was
[14:23]already doing, finding more readers. And so I'm excited of where the journey's going to take us in
[14:28]text. Because now, you know, like you beginning, I'm writing historical fiction. So these
[14:33]like the stores like Sister Mother Warrior. And I will continue to show the book. You know, there it is,
[14:39]gorgeous. You know, my father used to tell me these stories about women and rebellions and all these
[14:47]sorts of things. And I'm like, yeah, sure, Daddy, yeah, okay, whatever. These are great stories. Because
[14:51]my father was my mother was a literature person. Father was a storyteller. Hence, you know, I guess
[14:57]yeah, you were doomed. I was doing with this. But he would tell me these stories and these fabulous
[15:02]women doing things because I was the only girl. And I was three brothers. And so he wanted to
[15:08]encourage me in that way. But those stories stick. And the more I dig through archives, they
[15:14]saw I use my engineering skills now to go through archives, old books, you know, finding different
[15:20]things, looking at, you know, museums are starting to put things online. There's first person
[15:26]just putting the pieces back together to fill in the holes because although I'm attracted to
[15:32]to English London and Regency, you know, the economy is all built on the West Indies.
[15:37]So at that point in time, four out of every five panels is coming is coming from transactions based
[15:46]on the West Indies from sugar or coffee or indigo. To me, it all makes sense now. And I'm getting
[15:53]to tell these stories. Wow. That's amazing. My question is, how did you know how to build your own
[16:01]audience? That is like the Holy Grail of publishing anyway. So for you to just decide to independently
[16:06]publish and then successfully find your people, how did you go about that? One? I didn't know I
[16:12]couldn't. So that's the first thing. Okay. Okay. You know, as as just like yourself, you're like,
[16:18]it's a problem. I'm just going to go. You don't know there's a right answer or wrong answer here.
[16:22]Just no, I'm going to build a podcast. I'm going to do these different things. You just,
[16:26]you just want to do it, right? Yeah. And so for me, being authentically me, I'm the same person.
[16:31]So I'm like, if the publishers can't figure out how to market me in the books, I will market me
[16:36]in the books. And so you get, so like, on my Instagram, you get bits and pieces of my quirkiness,
[16:41]you get my passion for history. And then I believe in a beautiful cover, the bargain, which I
[16:48]think it was the first book that the book number two, I had spent my money on editing,
[16:57]and on a beautiful cover. And this cover was a gentleman out of Malaysia. It was this gorgeous
[17:03]cover of a black woman. She's in regency clothes and just the expression on her face like she
[17:10]been through something and she got a story to tell it. I put it out there and within without any
[17:16]additional advertising, the cover just started sparking conversations on Twitter and different
[17:22]places. And a thousand was sold in like two weeks. Oh my gosh. I know. It's always like, see,
[17:28]people. But it's, you know, it's some part of it's blessing. It's part of its love, part of it's
[17:35]just not giving up. I think that's the real thing because I've like, I've got these stories to tell.
[17:42]And you decide at some point whether I'm talking to one other person, my mother at the time,
[17:48]or if thousands of people across the globe, I'm going to do the best work I possibly can.
[17:57]Tell you about the story. Hopefully you'll see my enthusiasm. You want to pick up the book and you'll
[18:02]want to learn something because it's a different take. You know, we're regency folks, we know
[18:09]hairs version or Austin's version, but we don't even really really understand Austin's version
[18:15]because Austin talks about the slave trade in Mansfield's cart in Sandington. The richest woman
[18:22]is a mixed raised woman from Antique. You know, so you go back. The world is a lot more diverse.
[18:30]There's more, more equity. I mean, there's still there's still every is you can think of
[18:35]massaging is sexism. You know, any ism it's it's there, but there was also room for this
[18:41]other pieces, the shiny parts of our spirit that were people conquered things and did things.
[18:48]And so it was just it's it's exciting and being a space to be able to tell these stories.
[18:53]You know, I keep thinking about what you just said that there wasn't an appetite for what you
[18:58]were doing and you were hoping your people were out there because I don't know. I feel like the
[19:03]older I get, the more I realize that like there is nothing unique about me or anybody else. Like
[19:09]if I have an interest in something, I am not the only one in this giant universe who does that
[19:14]I the trick is just figuring out how to connect with those people and find them. So if you're,
[19:19]you know, whether it's what you like to read or what you like to write or whatever,
[19:23]there's nothing that's so bizarre. I mean, maybe there's something totally bizarre. But for most things,
[19:28]you know, 1800s, England, whatever, that that is not such an obscure thing. Right. But but
[19:34]it's just the question of finding the right audience and the right friends or the right co-workers.
[19:39]I don't know. I think it's encouraging because people try to write a certain genre or they
[19:44]try something new and think like, well, no, you know, who's going to read this or maybe I'm weird for
[19:49]trying this. But but there are other people out there who feel the same thing or maybe they're
[19:53]working on the same thing and you just haven't, haven't found each other yet. Exactly. The beautiful
[19:58]thing is
[20:00]the internet and social media,
[20:02]you can find your people a lot easier now.
[20:06]But you've gotta be brave and be out there
[20:09]and be once again the most authentic version yourself.
[20:13]When I got started I had friends who wrote to market
[20:16]and some of them did extremely well.
[20:20]For me, that wasn't me.
[20:21]I wanted to write stories that I wanted to read.
[20:25]I wanted to honor my culture
[20:28]and just show these facts that I'm finding.
[20:31]And I'm like, things need to be in a story
[20:34]so that people will understand and lock into it.
[20:38]And so like I said, it's a story and existence.
[20:41]I have it on a great time.
[20:44]I'm just crying.
[20:44]I had people get to tell me, get to listen.
[20:47]To what do you like to read?
[20:49]The same type of book or a totally different
[20:51]or everything or what do you read and what's your question?
[20:54]I'm an everything girl.
[20:55]I do love historical romance.
[20:57]I love Beverly Jenkins.
[20:59]I love Julia Quinn.
[21:00]I love Sarah McLean.
[21:02]I love historical fiction.
[21:03]So I, you know, let me look on my happy shelf,
[21:07]Kate Quinn, Denny S. Bryce, Nancy Johnson.
[21:12]There's so many great voices coming up
[21:15]and get me with the story.
[21:17]Throw me in someplace where I feel I've been transported.
[21:21]Beacher's Williams does that all the time.
[21:23]I feel like I'm transported when I read one of her books.
[21:27]And so, you know, Fiona Davis, the same thing.
[21:30]Take me someplace.
[21:31]And that's what I try and do.
[21:32]I try to take you someplace and immerse you so much
[21:36]that you feel a part of the story.
[21:38]So like with Sister Mother Warrior,
[21:39]which just came out in July, you know,
[21:42]I translated French and I put in the African languages
[21:47]because the story of these two dynamic women,
[21:50]I've been to Julia, who's a home warrior.
[21:53]So everybody who's going to go see some movies
[21:55]that are coming out between Black Panther
[21:57]and the woman king, these are based, this is true.
[22:01]They're based on a real women tribes
[22:04]who've protected the king.
[22:05]So you have added a toya.
[22:07]Also known as Grand Toya in Haiti now.
[22:10]She was at the home warrior.
[22:11]She's protecting the king.
[22:12]She gets conquered and transported to Santa Domingue,
[22:16]which is present day Haiti.
[22:17]And she raises up a generation teaching them
[22:21]the same how to position troops with the stars,
[22:24]how to choose the best paths.
[22:26]And one of the young men that she pours into
[22:29]is Jean-Jacques de Zalines, the man who liberates Haiti.
[22:32]So these are true stories.
[22:35]And I personally can't believe that no one
[22:37]has hadn't written the story in a way to really,
[22:41]you know, to let people sink into the times
[22:43]and the complexities of what's going on
[22:45]in African politics and the African kingdoms,
[22:48]as well as, you know, Britain, France, Spain, Portugal,
[22:53]everybody's fighting for a synodoming
[22:55]because it's the wealthiest colony.
[22:59]It's the most precious colony.
[23:00]You know, that's everybody wants the pearl of the antiliys.
[23:04]And I can't believe someone hasn't written it before.
[23:07]Do you ever burn out?
[23:10]Probably, no, I've never burned out,
[23:13]but I do honor taking moments between books.
[23:17]So I, you know, there's like a two week period
[23:20]where I just veg and I read my friends' books
[23:23]and I read more, you know,
[23:25]I try to stay away from research during that time frame.
[23:28]But I love research.
[23:30]And so I totally, you know, I'm a geek.
[23:34]I was in a blackie in March
[23:36]and I went to this little book shop
[23:38]and I was just gonna go in for a second.
[23:40]I can't believe it was like pop books
[23:43]because I just love research books.
[23:44]And I love old books.
[23:45]And so you indulge in your other passions.
[23:49]And to me, because this is fun,
[23:52]because this is really my passion.
[23:54]I have not come to burn out place
[23:56]and I hope I never come to burn out place.
[23:58]And tip for writers, I write every day.
[24:02]To me, I make it a muscle.
[24:04]And if you write every day, it becomes a muscle.
[24:07]You can always depend on a muscle working.
[24:09]When you take gaps, other priorities come to place.
[24:12]Much muscles get atrophy
[24:14]and so it gets harder and harder to go back.
[24:16]So, you know, I'm trying to convince myself
[24:19]with the gym, that's the same thing.
[24:20]I was literally about to say that's where I am
[24:22]with the gym right now.
[24:23]Like, yes.
[24:24]And I'm just watching the atrophy take over.
[24:27]I'm like, this used to be so easy.
[24:29]I used to like wake up every day and do it.
[24:31]And like anywhere I traveled,
[24:33]I would like find the closest gym
[24:34]and like go to a spin class or something.
[24:37]And now I'm like, wow.
[24:39]It's not even like on the menu when I wake up anymore.
[24:41]It's so bad, it's so bad.
[24:42]But anyway, yeah.
[24:44]So what's your next book?
[24:45]The next book will be another historical fiction.
[24:49]It's called, we just got the title too.
[24:51]Ooh, mean of exile.
[24:53]Ooh, that's a good title.
[24:54]Yeah. Love it.
[24:55]There's a queen that people need to know about
[24:59]who ruled a kingdom for 10 years.
[25:01]The exact same 10 years that the regency
[25:04]went from in England from 1811 to 1820.
[25:07]And then she went into exile in Europe
[25:09]and literally visited all the spa cities in Europe.
[25:14]So it's gonna be intrigue.
[25:16]It's going to be danger.
[25:18]But you're going to see a level of opulence
[25:21]in a woman and resilience in a woman
[25:26]that we need to know more about.
[25:28]So I'm gonna not say her name right now.
[25:31]Okay.
[25:31]Let the entry go through.
[25:34]I'm gonna look for Queen of Exiles next summer.
[25:38]I think you should organize a trip if the communities
[25:41]are so there.
[25:42]Like I wanna go on that trip to all the spa places in Europe.
[25:44]That sounds good.
[25:45]I know, I know.
[25:46]I went to half of them.
[25:48]You did half of them.
[25:49]I went to half.
[25:49]Because the things that she saw are still there.
[25:55]And I just wanted that experience.
[25:57]What does it feel like?
[25:59]Particularly because the country that she ruled
[26:02]didn't have these monuments or these things going back.
[26:08]At that point times two or three hundred years prior to,
[26:12]they were just starting to build those for the kingdom
[26:15]and when the kingdom fell.
[26:17]So what does it look like when you go and you see this cut marble
[26:21]and the tapestries and things that are like,
[26:24]oh, hundreds of years old.
[26:27]You know, the churches, you know,
[26:29]your church, they had one big one,
[26:32]one big cathedral, but mainly wood and glass.
[26:35]And now you're going to marble.
[26:38]What does that feel like?
[26:39]What does that look like?
[26:41]What does that add to your journey?
[26:43]So I had to go and I had this to be in the spaces where she was.
[26:49]And it was, it was a very humbling and experience.
[26:54]And I'm hoping that I brought that to the manuscript.
[26:58]Oh, my gosh, very exciting.
[27:00]I'm sure you did. Yeah, yeah.
[27:02]I sure you did too.
[27:04]Vanessa, thank you so much.
[27:05]This is so fun.
[27:06]And you really enjoyed talking to you.
[27:09]Thank you so much.
[27:10]You have a great day.
[27:12]I'll be back.
[27:12]Okay.
[27:13]I won't come on back.
[27:15]All right. Bye bye.
[27:16]Bye bye.
[27:18]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:20]Don't have time to read books.
[27:22]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[27:25]and at Moms.
[27:26]Don't have time to read books.
[27:27]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[27:30]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:31]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:34]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[27:36]for the sound editing.
[27:38]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:40]for providing this fantastic intro
[27:41]and now trim music.