Marisa Renee Lee, GRIEF IS LOVE: Living with Loss

[2:17]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, the creator and host of the award winning podcast that you're listening to right now, thank you so much, called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. It is a daily podcast three hundred and sixty five days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career, their book, their life, and more in thirty minutes or less because who has time? I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir, A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature wherever books are sold starting July 1. And my children's book, Prince is Charming. You can learn more about me at zibbyowens.com. But really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do. Also, sure to check out all the other podcasts in the ZCast Podcast Network. You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com, and definitely check out those shows as well. I hope you'll all check out the all new Zibby Mag, z I b b y m a g, the literary lifestyle destination with essays, book news, a lit lifestyle feature, and even some classes. Check it out at zippymag.com. Marissa Renee Lee is the author of Grief is Love Living with Loss. I said that very upbeat when it's sad. But anyway, Grief Is Love, Living With Loss. Marissa is a called upon advocate, writer, and speaker on coping with grief. Her acclaimed debut, Grief Is Love, unspools the story of her own grief journey and offers a compass to others navigating loss. She is a rabble rouser of social healing, former managing director of My Brother's Keeper Alliance, cofounder of the digital platform Support All, and founder of The Pink Agenda, a national organization dedicated to raising money for breast cancer care, research, and awareness. She is a regular contributor to Glamour, Vogue, MSNBC, and CNN. She is a graduate of Harvard and an avid home cook. She lives with her husband, Matt, and their newborn son, Bennett, and their dog, Sadie. And by the way, for those of you listening, if you are hearing rain in the background of this recording, I'm very sorry. But I am now away on our author retreat, which I will still be when you hear this episode. And we are in a torrential rainstorm. So if you wanna see what our whole team looks like and what it means to be part of this whole new Zippy Media Company and Zibby Books and all of that, go to my Instagram at Zibby Owens. I am posting lots of videos of our two days together, and it's really fun. We are living the message of community and how important connectedness is to us in our journey connecting to books, connecting to each other. Just take a look at Zippy Owens. Anyway, back to Marissa Renee Lee's episode. Welcome, Marissa. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss grief is love.

[5:14]Marisa Renee Lee: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for this chat. Me too. I feel like it's so long overdue. I've had I I don't know why it's been one of those things, but anyway, I'm delighted it's finally here. Yay. You have obviously been busy with your books. I've been busy with my book. I'm glad we're finally sitting down. Will be great. I

[5:31]Zibby Owens: feel like oh, I hate to say I feel like I know you because so many people say that to me and I'm like, oh, okay. But I feel like I know you because of your story and how open you were about your loss of your mom and the challenges that you went through and all the other pieces of your life. You know, I feel like you didn't just talk about the grief, but it was where the grief fit in the context of everything else you were going through, where you were in your life, and just going back and forth to like when you actually lost your mom and where you were today. Oh my gosh, it was really wonderful and immersive and helpful. Thank you. So why don't you tell listeners a little more about it? And then I have like 18,000 passages. So I'll just read a couple of quotes that I thought So were

[6:14]Marisa Renee Lee: this book was many, many years in the making. I lost my mom in February 2008, and I I knew she was gonna die. You know, she had MS. She had stage four breast cancer. Like, I was not gonna live in a fantasy about what was gonna happen. And so I did what I do with most things. You know, I created a strategy. I had spreadsheets. I had lists. I was gonna do whatever I could to help her transition out of this life and to prepare myself for her to not be around anymore. And I thought that all of the reading and the research and my lists and conversations were gonna be enough to make the grieving process and, you know, living with loss not easy, but manageable. Right? And then it actually happened, and it was like I got run over by a truck. And I was I was so, like, devastated, but also just deeply disoriented. You know? Like, I built my life anchored to this woman who had been sick since I was 13 years old, and all of a sudden, like, that was taken away. Obviously, she wasn't around to be my mom in the way that I was familiar with anymore. And I also experienced a lot of disappointment in myself and shame because it was so hard. Know? Like, I was embarrassed by my grief. And then finally, one day after months of beating myself up and kind of gaslighting my experiences, I decided I wasn't gonna do that anymore. And I wrote in my journal in August 2008, I am going to write a book about grief that is going to help people understand what grief actually is. It's not gonna be sad and depressing, and it's going to be a New York Times bestseller. And so far, we've checked two out of the three boxes. Still waiting on the times. I don't know where they are. But it took it took the loss of a pregnancy in 2019 to finally push me into writing this book. You know, if you had asked me before Matt and I lost our pregnancy, you know, how I was doing with my mom's death, you know, if I was over it, if I had moved on, so to speak, I would've said, yeah. Like, I'm pretty good. Like, I have a great life. Love my husband. Great work. Whatever. Think I I'm okay. And then the day that we actually had to deal with or that I had to deal with the physical consequences of miscarriage, I will never forget just being curled up in a ball on our bathroom floor, like, trying to fit myself onto the bath mat, too sick to even really have feelings. But all I wanted in that moment was my mom, And that continued to be the case for weeks and months as I processed and, you know, as Matt and I worked through our grief both separately and together. And I realized then that, like, no. I'm not over it. And you know what? Like, fuck getting over it. Like, what does that even mean? Like, how am I gonna get over the fact that I had this woman as my mom, you know, with me for the first twenty five years of my life, and she's not here anymore? It's not like it's not like I'm gonna forget she existed. Mhmm. And that led to an article I wrote for Glamour Mother's Day weekend twenty twenty, which was, you know, I'm not over it. I'm never gonna get over it. I don't care what anybody thinks. Like, I'm just gonna figure out how to live my life honoring the loss of my mom. And it went viral, and that then led to the book deal and the book that you're now holding. But it was it was definitely a process many years in the making, and I'm just I'm just really grateful that it all came together as hard as it was to write. Oh my gosh. Well, I've now written F getting over it on this thing. I love that. Sorry.

[10:04]Zibby Owens: I actually know I make these, we have this like little swag line that I never promote, so nobody knows it exists. But anyway, I have a couple quotes from authors and I want to put that out. You know, grief is love. Just getting over it. I just like living with loss. It's amazing. So, in fact, you know, perhaps your next essay or something. Just love it. By the way, I am so sorry for all that you went through with your mom and the miscarriage and everything. How many weeks along were you, by the way? It was very early. Like, it was only the first few weeks. And that, frankly, like, just being the practical person who I am, who's also

[10:45]Marisa Renee Lee: a very pro choice woman, I started out by feeling embarrassed for being so sad. And then I realized and this is the thing about grief in general, like, whether it is the physical loss of a person or, you know, maybe a divorce or a serious illness that you're dealing with, it is about the loss of the expectations that you had for your life to go in a certain way. You know, the grief that I felt, it wasn't about the pregnancy itself. Like, it was about what I had planned for my life as a mom, you know, with this child and all of the, like, hope and love and everything that we poured into it. And then to have it not work out, it was just it was just too much. And then, you know, also as, a type a person, I literally did everything you could imagine to create this life and then nothing. And I had a really hard time just wrapping my mind around the fact that sometimes in life, like effort does not align to outcome. Yep. And we just have to be okay with that.

[11:54]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Well, we don't have to be okay with it, but we have to, you know, learn how to move on after it happens. You know? I mean, I don't know. It's true. Especially in adult child arena. The only thing that makes me feel better after all the the journey is like saying that it's like not in my hands that it's there's some big, you know, like that, I don't know what, but like, I can't force it. And then I'm like, you know, because things didn't necessarily happen on the timetable I was interested in for my own child rearing experience, which I'm sure many women relate to. I mean, it's all fine now, but, you know, it's not how I wanted at the time and blah, you know, whatever. But just saying like, well, who am I to think that, like, it's all up to me, this like creating know. Human You know mean? Like, as if there's nothing It would be nice. It would be nice. I know. And I am equally type A. I'm like type A plus. Everything has to be like so and by the way, didn't when I asked how far along you were, it's because I feel like, I miss it in the book or did she not mention it in the book? But I felt like I wasn't sure. And not that it matters. It doesn't matter if it's a day or, you know, it just it's just I was just contextualizing, like, the image of you on the floor in the ball, you know? Was awful. Gutting. It's just terrible and gut wrenching. And it's great for you to talk about it because so many women do not talk about it. Anyway, and your mom too. I mean, the scene, I have to just I'm not going read the whole thing, but when your mom did pass away, I mean, that scene itself was so the way you wrote about it, I literally, like, sat in my bed later and it was just like felt almost the PTSD from the experience just as a reader from it because of your reaction. And you it's so clear. Like, now I look at the book cover and I think of that scene. But Oh, man. It was a hard one to write. You did say, I'll just read this this excerpt from it. You said, Because of my size, I had to use my entire body to hold her up. My arms wrapped around her. And in the shock of that moment, I still didn't think that was the moment. Then she started to seize. I felt her body shake so violently in my arms that I could no longer hold her. I laid her body on the floor. My life changed in that moment. Something inside me broke. It's a piece of me that I no longer expect to get back. Oh,

[14:13]Marisa Renee Lee: yeah, it was it was awful and crazy. And there are, you know, like that that is one of the moments that, like, before writing this book, you know, most people didn't know the details of that day. And getting to a place where you feel comfortable sharing those details about and, I mean, you know, you've written a memoir, like, about your life and, like, the hardest, worst moments and things that have happened to you. Like, it's just it's it's tough. That book required a lot of therapy. I bet. A lot of therapy and a lot of me just, like, crying on the floor of this office.

[14:48]Zibby Owens: But are you glad? I mean, do you feel better now?

[14:51]Marisa Renee Lee: So well, let me tell you something that a friend said to me when I was writing the book. She's a teacher. She's brilliant and amazing. And I was just really, you know, deep in it. And writing a book about grief in the middle of a global pandemic, like, there were just so many things about it that were challenging. And I was complaining about how hard it was. And she said, the thing that you have to remember is the things that are really hard in life also have the power to be some of the most transformative experiences that we have. And she said, you know, you get to decide what the transformation is. And in that moment, I was like, oh my god. First of all, I'm so glad you're my friend. And I'm gonna make sure that, like, the transformation is overall a positive one. You know, that I learn things about myself and take this book writing process also as an opportunity to do more of my own healing. And so that's what I did. And I I feel like I feel like I am a healthier person emotionally today as a result. And I think I've developed more compassion and empathy

[15:58]Zibby Owens: both for myself and for other people as a part of putting the book together. So, yeah, it's been positive. I know. I could feel you, like, almost forgiving yourself. Dude, like, you were, like, in the time, this is how I handled everything. And now I see why. I wish I had known. Yes. 100%. Yeah. 100%. It's amazing. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100 European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.comzibby for free shipping and $3.65 day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[19:01]Zibby Owens: I also like, when I went through grief for the first big time when I lost my best friend, so many people called me, I remember, in the in the months after and were like, it's enough now. Get back to life. This has gone on too long type of thing. And for years, I felt like, what was wrong with the people telling me that? I can't believe those people betrayed me. But then the more I learned about grief and everything, it's like, well, there is such a thing as delayed prolonged grief. This is normal. And it's also normal for people not to know that if they haven't experienced it. But I love this type A, you know, again, you said, is how you had, you said, I built meticulous spreadsheets. This is to prepare for your mother's loss. I built meticulous spreadsheets and to do lists. I made friends with a local undertaker. I told my father to increase my mother's life insurance policy. And then you go on to say, I had even preemptively preemptively built a notification email list for my friends to inform my broader social group when she died. I was as prepared as they come and completely delusional. I built a plan with a lot of help that ensured my mother died on her terms and had a badass funeral. I was ready, but I wasn't.

[20:15]Marisa Renee Lee: I mean, that, yeah, that that was me in my early twenties thinking, like, I could project manage death and grief, and it turns out you can't. And I am all for people if they have time preparing for the logistics around death, like, yes. Do that for sure. But there's no there's truly nothing I think that can prepare you for the shock that comes when someone who's yours, you know, your best friend, your spouse, your parent, like, it's life changing. And I think I think that's the way it's supposed to be. Yes. I also feel like this book

[20:48]Zibby Owens: does such a good job of of what it's like at work when you are grieving. Because that is anyway, you mentioned several times about you, you had this big job on Wall Street and blah, blah, blah. And this passage was really great too. I'm sorry to keep quoting. There were so I mean, I can do this all the time. It makes me happy. You said my grief had become too much to bear as I finally came to understand that crying alone in churches and bathrooms during my lunch breaks wasn't working. I was silently carrying grief everywhere with me, and it wasn't manageable. My grief went back and forth to work with me. It was chugging along on the back end of every deadline, whispered to me while in important client meetings, and sat beside me as I laughed along at drinks with my coworkers at happy hours. I was keeping on at my own expense.

[21:33]Marisa Renee Lee: A 100%. And what I I don't think it ended up making it into the book, but I was back at work two weeks after we buried my mom. You know, that felt like an, you know, an appropriate sort of adult way to go about things. And so I I could manage somehow, you know, no matter how little sleep I got to, like, get myself out of bed, showered, dressed, out the house every morning. And then there was something about climbing the stairs to leave the subway on Wall Street to, like, walk the two blocks to my office. Like, every time I started to leave the subway, like, that is the moment when it hit me. You know, as I'm walking toward I worked at Brown Brothers Harriman at the time, like, big building on Broadway down there. I realized, like, oh my god. Like like, life is going on, but she's not in it. And I would start having these debilitating panic attacks. And I could manage to get in the door, get in the elevator, take it down to the basement, and they had a training center in the basement at the time. And I would hide down there every morning for months having these horrible panic attacks. And when I would start to come out of it, I would email my girlfriend who sat next to me, of course, the only other girl on the banking platform, and she would bring me a latte, a Xanax from my desk drawer, and a cookie. And, like, that is literally how I started my workday for months as though it was nothing. You know, I would redo my makeup in the bathroom downstairs, come up, and still be within, like, five minutes of our normal start time for the workday. Like, it was it was insane. And, like, I didn't bother besides my girlfriend, Alexa. Like, I didn't tell people that that's how I was living. I was just like, well, this is weird. Like, I thought this wasn't gonna be that bad. Like, was it crazy. It was crazy. So, yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of self forgiveness that I had to do and just a lot of wrapping my mind around how hard that period of time was.

[23:29]Zibby Owens: Ugh. That's like a soul crushing image to think of you like that, to think of the people who are going through that now, who don't know that other people have done it. Like, that's why your body has to find all the right people, you know? Oh, and then the same thing with the pregnancy. You said, As the classic black female striver who had actually climbed her way to success and made my family proud by attending a good school, working on Wall Street and in the White House, and marrying a wonderful man, I had convinced myself that I could have and do it all. Maybe not all at once, but as long as I worked hard, I would ultimately get what I wanted in life. Why shouldn't I? I did everything in my power to ensure this pregnancy came to fast. I felt I had earned that baby. I felt entitled to that baby. I had a very specific set of plans for myself as a mother. I believed in my bones that I was meant to be a mom. I had worked so hard to bring that life into the world. And then I was left with a failure and yet another year would pass without my child. And then and we said, didn't have a backup plan. It was once again the loss of my identity plus the loss of physical health. It was a grief like no other. Yeah. I'm sorry. Now I'm just like, let me rub the hardest days of your life in your face in this It's okay. It's really what I do. No. I mean, it was it was it was brutal. And there is something about

[24:42]Marisa Renee Lee: pregnancy loss. And I texted one of my girlfriends who's been through it a bunch. You know, I just felt like such a failure. And, you know, if I'm being honest, like, failure hadn't been a big part of my life up until that point. You know? Like, I was the hardworking overachiever kid who did all the things in high school and went to Harvard and then helped take care of a dying mom while working on Wall Street and then went to work for Barack Obama. You know? And then and then and then. So, like, for me to have something that, like, I really believed was meant to be mine and that I knew I worked hard to get and then to have it not work out. Like, I was just, like, I was confused. I couldn't I, like, couldn't understand what happened. I was confused and depressed and just I just felt like the biggest failure in the world. I feel terrible. I you know, it's like because I totally get it. I totally understand.

[25:41]Zibby Owens: And yeah. If only that's the way it worked. Right? Yeah. You also wrote later how you were not thinking about extending grace to anyone two days after your mother died, and how grief also affects friendships. Huge, you know. I know, I know. And like, the people who really show up sometimes are the ones you don't expect, and you'll never And the ones maybe you thought you could count on, then maybe you can't. And like so much in life, and not to be woo woo or hokey or whatever, but it's like often people's reactions have so much more to say about who they are than anything going on with you, whether it's A 100%. Death, divorce, anything. Like people's reactions are just a lit they're like a litmus test. It's almost like the best way. You should just go around being like, I'm getting a divorce, and then you will find out right away what's going on with your friends' marriages. But it's similar with, like, with loss. Right? It's true. It's here in a way. Yeah. And, you know, I was obviously really young when my mom died. So, like, I was the first in my friend group to have to go through something like that and to have to try and navigate it.

[26:45]Marisa Renee Lee: And yet, I mean, people stepped up for me in so many amazing ways. And I get the question in pretty much every interview, like, what do I do if someone I care about is grieving? Like, I don't know what to say. I'm not gonna ask you. Well, I'm gonna tell everybody anyway because it's so important to me, and I know you're gonna agree with me. First of all, if if somebody just lost someone that is, like, one of their most important people in the world, pretty much nothing you say is gonna make them feel better because, like, the devastation is that deep. So people need to stop getting hung up on the, what do I say? There's a chance you might say something stupid. It's not the end of the world. What matters the most, I believe, is doing something. Like, someone has just had the worst thing in their life happen to them. They need help. Like, they need practical help. They need help that might cheer them up down the road. So figure out what you can do for them, whether it's sending a thoughtful gift or, you know, dropping off a meal or committing to picking their kids up from summer camp. You know? Whatever it is, do something. Because, like you said, like, you never forget those people who stepped up and, like, really supported you when you were going through it. And so that's that's always my thing to everybody. Like, figure out something useful to do and just do it. Don't ask what can I do for you? Or what do you need? They don't they don't know. They're too sad. It's true. It's so true. I think food is always good. We when

[28:12]Zibby Owens: we got back from when my husband lost his mom, a friend of his well, a friend of ours now, not only had food, but had it delivered from a local restaurant, like party food style. Like kids, was was like, Kyle, And his sister and she sent us food for, I don't know, a 100 people. And we ate it for weeks. Yes. But I'll never forget that, that we came home and we didn't have to think about food. And she had it all there and Ready to go. Yes. Yes. The little things. It's the little things. You're like, wow. And like his his partners at work every day for a week sent us another thing of food from Goldcorp. Yeah.

[28:47]Marisa Renee Lee: That's like that stuff makes a difference. You know, when we one of my favorite gifts that I've received in grief times came after we lost our pregnancy. One of my girlfriends, same one that would rescue me with the Xanax every morning at work, she sent a box of gourmet cheeses from Murray's Cheese Shop in the West Village because it's one of my favorite places on Earth. So, like, technically impractical, but she knew I wasn't gonna be up for big meals. But I could snack on cheese and crackers all day long and like cry. So yeah, just just do something people, please. Yeah. Because of that woman who did that for me, the next friend I had who lost someone,

[29:25]Zibby Owens: I just did like an Uber Eats. And I was like, I'm just getting them like a whole meal. I'm not like preparing a casserole. You know? I'm like, if you are home, expect this delivery. Don't write me back. Yes. That's exactly the way to do it. Yes. Wait, tell me also about your business, because you were talking about moving, you're moving cities, you're promoting

[29:45]Marisa Renee Lee: a book, and you're running a business. Yeah. So I run a small consulting firm primarily focuses on strategy operations and some partnerships work mostly for philanthropists, so big foundations, some nonprofits. Then I do some private sector clients, but it's it's mostly philanthropy and, you know, political organizations, folks in the social sector, essentially leveraging all the things I did in the White House to help people run and grow organizations. But, yeah, it's it's busy because that's I have that full time job and then, you know, promoting a book is a full time job and then an 11 old. So it's it's been a time over here. Oh my gosh. Is there anything you do that that helps you feel more sane? Yes. One thing I have started doing, just checking in on my emotional health, like, every night when I get into bed, I just ask myself, like, what are you feeling? How are you feeling? You know, is there anything you need that maybe you can incorporate in your day tomorrow to make life a little bit less crazy? I'm also looking at my Peloton bike right now. I'm a big fitness person, and I've been trying to write pretty much every day. Not for anybody else, but just processing, you know, getting things out, figuring out what I might want to do for the next book, you know, figuring out mom's stuff that I'm still learning and trying to work through. So yeah, those are those are some of my big ones. Yeah. I look at my Peloton bike too. I'm gonna look for you. I'm gonna add you. I'll invite you to one of my workouts.

[31:21]Zibby Owens: No. And you'll see that it's been way too long that I I have no excuse. None. I it's like, it's just terrible. Okay. I will ask what advice you have for aspiring authors. If you believe that

[31:34]Marisa Renee Lee: you have a story to tell, start writing. You know, it's it's a really hard and you've highlighted this a bit. It's a really hard industry to navigate as a newcomer. And I feel like there've been a lot of pieces out about how hard it is and how hard it is specifically to sell a book and to really get, you know, the traction you need for a book to be, quote, unquote, successful. But I just wanna encourage people, like, if you if you really believe that you have a story that needs to be shared, to start working on it and see what happens and see where it goes. And, you know, if you're not ready to write the whole thing, it it took me over a decade to put this book together. But in the meantime, I wrote shorter pieces about grief and infertility and loss. And so put yourself out there. Like, there you're not if you don't start, you're never gonna finish.

[32:26]Zibby Owens: So I'm all about just getting writing and seeing where it takes you. This gave me such a good idea because when you said that you still haven't gotten on the bestseller list, I've been thinking about that this whole conversation, and I'm like, what is it that you know, it's so it's almost impossible to get on the New York Times bestseller list. But wouldn't it be neat to see like, I would like to see of all the people who like listen to the podcast or in the sort of mom's turn time to universe in some way, like, I would like to have my own bestseller list, you know? Yes. Like, but have some way of tracking it. Cause I mean, it's not like everyone in the world, right? It's like in this select group of, you know, people who really love to read, right? Yes. Whatever. Yes. Love that. No, I love that. And I mean,

[33:05]Marisa Renee Lee: you know, it's the whole New York Times thing is very opaque and no one can give you a straight answer of, like, exactly how it works or anything. I am grateful that people seem to be enjoying the book and that it's helping people because that's what I wrote it for. So the New York Times will have to wait for the next book, I guess.

[33:26]Zibby Owens: They'll be waiting for one of the bestseller list.

[33:29]Marisa Renee Lee: Yes.

[33:30]Zibby Owens: Marissa, thank you so much. Thanks for the chat. Thank you for having being so open and sharing and allowing others to connect with you. Of course. Thank you. All right. Bye. Take care. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this intro and outro music.