Kyleigh Leddy, THE PERFECT OTHER: A Memoir of My Sister
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[1:13]Kylie Letty is the author of the perfect other a memoir of my sister
[1:17]Kylie received her bachelor's degree from Boston College and her MSW from Columbia University and advanced clinical practice in public policy
[1:25]In 2019 she won the New York Times modern love college essay contest for a piece
[1:29]She wrote about grieving her sister Kate her work has appeared in various publications
[1:33]including the New York Times parents in the cut
[1:35]She is based in New York City and the perfect other is her first book
[1:39]Welcome Kylie. Thank you so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books to discuss the perfect other a memoir of my sister
[1:47]Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm a big fan of podcasts. Oh
[1:51]Kylie, I really love this book. You're a beautiful writer. I can't believe you wrote it when you were 23, right? Is that that's yeah
[2:00]That was my two and I finished at 23. Oh my gosh
[2:04]A heartbreaking yet inspiring story. Why don't you tell listeners a little bit about why you decided to make your personal story with your sister
[2:14]Kate and your family and oh my gosh. I want to beat your mom after all this like I feel so attached
[2:21]Talk a little about you didn't why why you decided to make it into a book and what the the crux of the story really is
[2:27]Yeah, definitely everyone always says that my mom. I think it's so cute
[2:32]She is the best my best friend. So yeah, but yeah, no
[2:35]So how this came out basically was that in 2019
[2:39]I was a senior at Boston College and I submitted to the modern love New York Times essay contest just kind of on a whim
[2:46]not thinking much of it and
[2:49]I end up winning the contest when it was actually my senior week. So
[2:53]college I was graduating
[2:55]And it just launched me into this path where I had this opportunity to
[3:00]start drafting this book, you know, agents reaching out to me and I
[3:04]Realize I had some of it already written honestly over the course of my own personal writing
[3:09]And it came together pre-organically got the book deal that fall with a chat originally and then we you know
[3:15]mergers acquisitions
[3:17]A whole lot and end up at Harper Collins and yeah, it's been a journey
[3:22]But the book itself is about my sister who was six years or the name
[3:28]Kind of our relationship
[3:30]It's about sisterhood. It's about grief about mental illness
[3:33]That love and it's really about her struggle with her mental health and how to escalate over the years into
[3:40]head traumas and eventually she skips a crunyon so
[3:44]It's really kind of looking back and trying to take this
[3:49]This you know, respect in the past and see all the signs we didn't see the time
[3:53]And how these behavioral issues start and making spirons and things like this and it's about her
[3:58]Eventually she committed suicide. So it's also about grief and the second half is really about kind of coming out of that experience
[4:07]I'm so sorry for everything that you went through and she did sound like such an amazing
[4:12]Older sister and your relationship was so special. I was really interested in
[4:17]The head traumas that she went through and you described them in the book in detail and
[4:21]How once she was sticking out of here of her bedroom and fell from the second floor
[4:27]And kind of brushed it off and went off to the party another time
[4:30]She fell from a couple steps when maybe somebody was hugging her. You're not sure what happened
[4:35]But that required literally like opening up her scalp and the sub hematoma whatever
[4:40]I don't have the right language bleeding inside the brain and
[4:44]Your hypothesis. I you know in the book. You're clearly
[4:48]Grappling with what is it? Was it was this schizophrenia?
[4:53]Should we have seen it coming all along like were these signs?
[4:57]This were they something else where the head traumas what caused it can head trot of this cause and even the PCOS that you mentioned
[5:04]Was that a contributor?
[5:06]You know, I feel like you're trying so hard to untangle how it could have happened and did you miss something and
[5:13]What what were the contributing forces and they're obviously is no clear answer, right?
[5:18]But where do you lay it on all of that? Yeah, exactly
[5:22]I think honestly looking back and once I've tried to put it all together and you know
[5:27]I originally now was drafting it
[5:28]I had a working title as signs we see because I was thinking of as like the signs mental health
[5:34]Also in the grief section is kind of signs that someone is still with you and covering that sense as well
[5:40]But I think honestly we unfortunately had a perfect storm
[5:44]I think there are probably a lot of factors contributing to it
[5:48]You mentioned PCOS
[5:50]The hormonal disorder. That was definitely probably something that couldn't have helped anything
[5:54]And then we had the head traumas. I think that my mom and I are theory basically is that
[6:00]If they weren't for the head traumas you probably could have managed it better
[6:04]Maybe they just kind of center over yet. It could have been a weekend or had
[6:08]You know my vacation for we had therapy for but instead it was just as I don't know
[6:12]This is kind of last draw and I do think like especially in this podcast when
[6:16]You know you have talking to moms and it just you're looking at everyone wants their kid to be
[6:23]Happy and healthy and no one wants something like this to happen
[6:26]So I think for me in writing the book was trying to piece together these facts and look at
[6:31]How does it like this be avoided in the future?
[6:34]Whether that's prevention or just better treatments or more empathy less stigma
[6:38]And I have had a lot of people reach out to me in the process
[6:41]Just telling me their own stories and seeing how prevalent it still is
[6:45]The aftermath when you had to deal with
[6:48]I mean you were still young when this all happened and had to deal with the
[6:53]Regular school of cancer like a birthday party with your friends and having them be annoyed about it
[6:58]Or being upset with your moodiness or just typical teenage hijings which
[7:04]You were carrying so much more and that immediately like having to write about it some like at school and having to answer those questions and
[7:12]The guy at college who put you on the spot who was like well
[7:15]Do you know you told some people get a sister and you told other people that you didn't like what's up, you know
[7:19]It's so I just my heart kind of broke for you and all of these moments and also just
[7:26]There was you know some anger or two right how are people so insensitive and how
[7:32]Like I wish there had been more protection around you
[7:36]I feel like you were so just out there and exposed and I guess that is the way it is all the time with grief
[7:41]But even more so with you being young that you had to go through all of this with
[7:46]this complete lack of sensitivity particularly from your school and
[7:50]I don't know how you feel about it now looking back
[7:53]But I don't know it read again as and you know as a neutral third party. It just
[7:58]was sort of horrifying to me
[8:01]Yeah, you know, I think honestly like we just don't know how to handle grief as societies
[8:06]So I don't know if we have like the language around it
[8:08]And for suicide especially I mean it has much stigma around it people just
[8:13]They hear that word and they just back away
[8:15]Yeah, like a good opener. So I think I understand. I don't think it's like necessarily like malicious
[8:23]Intentions behind it. Usually. I think it's really just this lack of
[8:27]Being able to help like it's like helplessness. Like how do I help my friend is going through this?
[8:31]How do I you know how do I help a student going through this like there's not a lot of answers there so
[8:36]Yeah, it definitely was hard and then you know you probably know more it's my to know about it
[8:42]Yeah, make it make it a weirder
[8:46]You kept coming back to the fact that
[8:50]Kate disappeared right you this is in the opening
[8:53]So I'm not giving anything away
[8:54]But that there had been visions of her on
[8:57]The
[8:58]Brethren Franklin bridge wearing the red coat and then suddenly in the next room
[9:02]She was not there and
[9:04]By the way, the reddit part. I just like could not believe that scene. I don't you know
[9:08]I'll leave that
[9:09]Her readers but you come back to they're not being an answer right? She her body was not found and
[9:17]There is no final resolution and
[9:20]You kind of hinted at a few times hoping that what if she were to just show up
[9:24]You know what if that was her what was that random neighbor could it be her and
[9:29]I know you said I had just that you book it and spent my friend my best friend Stacy was died in the 9-11 attacks and
[9:36]Not to compare at all but just that there's no
[9:39]Body to bury like you the rituals of grief at least not at least but when you go through that and you
[9:46]The body's rest you have the fetal and you say goodbye and there's some finality and closure to that when you have a loss
[9:53]With someone just literally like disappearing into thin air. It's much harder. I mean it's all hard and terrible. There's
[10:00]that harder. But there is a particular way of trying to wrap your mind around how that could
[10:06]possibly be and then how you just move forward for that. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's interesting
[10:11]to like, even when I was writing the book, I'd have like this nightmares, not nightmares,
[10:15]which is strange. My sister would be like, a lie. And she'd come and she'd be like,
[10:19]why do you write this book saying I was dead? Like, I'm not on here. Like, you know, it's still
[10:23]like, even when you know something and even though you have that intellectual proof, you don't have
[10:28]the physical proof, like you said. And it just, I think it just delays the healing process
[10:33]so much. And I also think, I saw my mom up this recently actually, it's just like, I think that our
[10:39]society used to experience a lot of death, unfortunately, not law and national causes, not more
[10:45]illnesses, not more tragedies. And we had better COVID mechanisms around it. I mean,
[10:51]more language around it. I mean, we had like widows, walks and stuff. I mean, people like,
[10:56]it was so common nowadays is just really good. It's so much less common that people just don't
[11:02]know how to handle it, especially young people. So, you know, I think like just trying to normalize
[11:06]that in being like, this is a tragedy and it happened. But it doesn't make you different or,
[11:13]you know, any more damage. It's just part of life, unfortunately.
[11:18]And in the scene when you were graduating, I guess, and then somebody was like, oh, how is your sister
[11:22]what she up to? And in the moment, you just made something up because like, how do you handle a
[11:26]moment like that? And then you felt so guilty about it. And then you, you know, just getting into a
[11:31]deeper, deeper hole with the, the lie is essentially not alive. But, you know, how do you go into
[11:36]all that? Like, why are you required to dredge on that app at every interaction? I don't know. It's
[11:42]it's hard. And you wrote about it so beautifully. Like, that's really like, your story is compelling
[11:48]and so sad, but also so hopeful. And there's so much love in this book. There's so much love
[11:54]from you. There's so much love from your mom. I mean, when she was, you know, getting beaten up and
[12:00]would just like hope for those moments of clarity, when like the real Kate would sort of show up and
[12:05]just like all that she was willing to withstand. I mean, there's just so much, there's just so much
[12:10]love of it, the pain. And even you're, I'm sorry, I just keep talking about all these stories.
[12:15]But like, even, even just your fear and the way you describe that in the book, I hope I
[12:19]dug you in that page. But what it feels like to not have a secure environment for yourself,
[12:25]like in your own home, I mean, that's also a unique thing that many like some victims of violence and
[12:31]trauma and have gone through, like, how do you repair from that? Like, do you feel like you are
[12:35]repairing from that? I do. I had a lot of people, I'm not sure if you're in this stage yet since
[12:41]your butt just came out, but if you're on good reads, get off it. I'm telling you that, I'm on it.
[12:47]Like, I read reviews a lot, which is like my worst habit I check it all the time in my age,
[12:51]and was like, you have to stop reading this. But I did, I had like one prickly review that said,
[12:56]like, you know, this, and I didn't do it for me, but it must be like so therapeutic for her.
[13:02]And I was like, it's so interesting because I got that comment a lot about how this was like,
[13:06]and hopefully a therapeutic experience. And it was so hard to write the book, like, going back
[13:11]as a headspace. And, you know, I had kind of recovered from a lot of it, and then I had to go right
[13:17]back and kind of like, really big things up. And I say in the acknowledge section, like, there's
[13:22]a difference between living something and then trying to make meaning from it. So trying to
[13:28]my back and say, like, why this happened? What did I feel like, now that logic and I'm thinking,
[13:32]like, it was just so awful, so hard. And then now that's out in the world, and it's kind of a
[13:41]closed book and that sounds, it does feel kind of therapeutic. Like, I do feel like a lot of it has
[13:46]been resolved for me. Like, I feel like I'm at peace a lot of stuff. And I feel like my sister and I
[13:52]are in good terms. Like, I just feel like she was helping me along this process, you know,
[13:57]I'm very spiritual. So I felt her presence a lot. And I think that even that was in the end
[14:02]kind of a healing experience. But it was when this healing experience says that really sucks in the
[14:07]in between. Yes, process is not pretty. I had another friend who I lost in page who I wrote about
[14:15]in my book. And 11 to 11 was so her thing that she actually, we had her memorial service at 11
[14:21]11. Like, that's the time people were called to the service. Anyway, so I related to that
[14:26]as well. Not the book, just my life. Wait, I wanted to see if I found, if I could find quickly,
[14:33]I loved this section. Oh, I, I thought you're this because I wanted to watch the movie of 10 girls,
[14:38]which I've never seen with Britney Murphy. And it's like, oh, that sounds good.
[14:42]Yeah, I was comparing my sister and I to the characters in that since I was like younger,
[14:47]but more serious. And she was more in a fun, restorative older sister. Yeah, all of her injuries.
[14:53]Oh, my gosh. Oh, I love the thing about how you find tickling on because I also, I thought that
[14:58]I think that myself. This is not particularly relevant to the story, but you're like, I've always found
[15:04]tickling. I've always, I'm tickling kind of odd how it's both painful and pleasant at once. You're
[15:08]laughing. And at first, the burn feels good. It aches like your limbs after a long day at the beach,
[15:12]jumping over waves and exhausted high. But then your muscles contract. You have the distinct feeling
[15:16]of being out of control carnival ride that was supposed to be fun, but on a dime has grown terrifying.
[15:21]Some theories claim that tickling may have evolved as an evolutionary defense mechanism.
[15:25]The most vulnerable parts of our bodies are ticklish. Our feet, our armpits are stomach,
[15:30]sides, and neck. My allergies are terrible today, because we're most sensitive in these spots.
[15:34]If true, this idea of proportionate sense of faith in the person tickling you,
[15:38]like how a dog will roll over and expose his belly if he trusts his owner, we will do reveal
[15:42]our most unguarded selves when we believe them safe. For years, Kate's aggressive behavior
[15:47]still felt like this to be a game of pretend, beautiful, and also interesting for anybody else who's
[15:53]struggled with tickling. But then I wouldn't read this passage, which was absolutely beautiful.
[15:58]My sister's sanity slipped slowly and quietly the way you lose a train of thought or slide
[16:03]into a dream at night there and then not. She lost her edge a little by little, an avalanche
[16:09]that picks up one rock and then another, a steady progression, and then in a flash, a tragedy,
[16:15]uncontrollable, too late. That's really beautiful.
[16:20]Oh, thank you. I do think that's also just very true of the experience. When you're looking
[16:26]for answers, it is so hard to find one answer for these things, because there were some
[16:30]factors, and it's impossible to see the full picture when you're in it and you're experiencing it.
[16:36]I know that's, unfortunately, in our society, too, the moms get blamed for everything.
[16:42]So that's something I was looking at, too, is like, for parents who are going through right now.
[16:45]It's so hard. It's so impossible to see what's going on, and there are so few easy answers in this.
[16:53]There's a lot of hope, but that's a mission that your mom is working so hard. I mean, it's not just,
[16:58]you can't just look at it in a vacuum. Everybody is trying to keep the whole boat afloat,
[17:03]in addition to this, right? You can't just, it's not just naval gaze that you're sitting there
[17:08]and being able to watch and analyze. Life goes on, and you have to provide for the family and do
[17:12]all these other things at the same time. So this was also beautiful. There's something about
[17:17]our body's reaction to grief that's almost too dramatic to be genuine. We slide down walls,
[17:22]crumpling on hardwood floors. The gravity of loss invents its own rule of physics.
[17:28]We collapse into ourselves, our chest, meeting our knees, bringing our heads closer to the ground,
[17:33]like that'll somehow make us feel more solid, more safe to lie on the warm pavement and press
[17:38]our bodies into the hard earth. Dread and circles your brain draining the blood from your temples
[17:43]and leaving a fuzziness in its wake like the static of a lost television signal. You want to
[17:48]cover your ears like you used to when your sister teased you as a child because the truth can't
[17:52]touch you if you don't allow yourself to hear it. It's as if you're a character in a movie
[17:56]watching the action unfold around you. Is my hand really covering my mouth? Why am I pressing
[18:00]my palms against my temple? Do people do that in real life? And if you're anything like me,
[18:05]the nausea comes first, the waiting in the depths of your stomach and the bile that almost rises
[18:09]but decides to fall instead. It's the nausea that never truly fades. It returns now and again,
[18:14]when you drive past a bridge or look at an old photo, you think if only I could puke, if only I
[18:19]could get it out. Once and for all, maybe I could dispose of the bad, this feeling, this new
[18:23]reality. It would be cathartic, a release, an escape. Oh, that's one of the best descriptions
[18:29]of grief that I've like ever heard. Oh, absolutely beautiful. I'm so sorry you've gone through this,
[18:34]but absolutely beautiful. And by the way, I have also played the game that you played with your
[18:39]friends, the game you called who would cry at my funeral. I played that in my head all the time.
[18:43]I cannot explain how many times I have played my funeral in my head so much so that I'm like,
[18:47]maybe I should just have it early. Maybe I should just be still just get this over with and I'll
[18:51]plan the whole thing and I'll just like, you know, everybody can do their speeches and be sad and
[18:55]then I'll be like, surprise, you know, okay, let's like keep going, but now you don't have to have one
[19:00]later. No, definitely. You know, it is interesting. It's like, I do think grief is so universal,
[19:06]but it's one of those unfortunate clubs where you don't get it until you experience it and then
[19:11]once you experience it, everyone's kind of on the same page of how awful it is much, really
[19:16]like. And it is a very physical experience and ask something that I didn't expect personally,
[19:20]which is how, like, physically I would feel that heartbreak. I did up the nausea. I mean,
[19:25]all those things are, it's, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I just, it affects you so much. And for me,
[19:31]when I was writing the book was just like, I know how do I communicate this in a way that
[19:37]makes people feel not alone that they can see themselves in it and it registers with them.
[19:42]I have a friend who's sick right now and when we heard about it, I literally told my head
[19:46]husband, I was like, I feel like I just like swallowed some sort of toxic chemical. As you
[19:51]said, like it like goes all the way through your body and you just like feel it. And then every
[19:56]time we talk about it, I feel that same kind of.
[20:00]You know, scooping out inside or something with like needles.
[20:03]I don't know, anyway.
[20:04]Yeah, scooping out is a good visit at the word for it.
[20:07]It's very, it's, you feel very hollow sometimes.
[20:09]I feel like with that.
[20:10]Well, this is uplifting, you know,
[20:11]I like this is really what you want to talk about
[20:13]on an early, early morning.
[20:16]Wait, so this book and this, you know,
[20:18]this piece of your life aside,
[20:20]tell me about your life these days.
[20:22]Like what are you doing?
[20:24]Where are you living?
[20:25]What's your life like?
[20:26]You're marketing a book, but like what else?
[20:27]And like where do you want to go from here?
[20:29]Like what's the happy stuff in your life?
[20:32]There you go, it's good to like thank you.
[20:33]Yeah, I'm in New York City right now.
[20:35]I'm not sure you can hear all the sirens outside.
[20:37]I wake up.
[20:38]In New York, a little bit,
[20:40]a bunch of my friends in college.
[20:42]And I just graduated from Columbia, my MSW in May.
[20:46]So I'm done grad school and yeah,
[20:49]it's a mental health care and public policy.
[20:51]So I'm hoping that I can use the book as a launching off point
[20:55]for that and try and do more policy work and do, you know,
[20:58]more of the public service and that sense.
[21:00]But I'm also writing my second book right now,
[21:02]which has been really fun.
[21:04]It's fiction, it's totally different.
[21:07]And it's just, it's all the best parts of writing about,
[21:10]you know, the horrible personal tragedy album of it.
[21:15]So it's been really great to kind of pivot that direction.
[21:18]I'm hoping that I can just keep writing books.
[21:20]It's the dream.
[21:22]So fingers crossed that works out.
[21:24]That's amazing.
[21:25]I don't know if you have any interest.
[21:26]I'm on the board of an organization called
[21:27]the Child Mind Institute.
[21:29]It's about children's mental health and everything.
[21:31]And they do a lot with destigmatization and prevention.
[21:35]And they're trying to find like a biomarker
[21:37]for mental illness early.
[21:38]So you can know what's coming.
[21:40]Anyway, if you're interested in getting involved,
[21:41]even on the policy.
[21:42]I love it, they do such good research.
[21:44]They're so like on top of it.
[21:45]And they're one of the best, I think,
[21:48]organizations that are trying to address this right now,
[21:50]especially in kids.
[21:51]Well, I'm happy to put you in touch with the founder
[21:54]if you want to get involved or help with that.
[21:57]I don't problem.
[21:58]Do you play any sports?
[21:59]Like, what do you do when you're not cerebral?
[22:02]I actually love pickleball.
[22:05]OK, my mom and I got super into it during the pandemic.
[22:09]We were tennis players growing up.
[22:10]And we play a lot of pickle.
[22:13]That's really fun.
[22:14]I'm big on soul cycle these days.
[22:16]It's something I did not do before.
[22:18]And then when the book was coming out,
[22:20]I think I was just so stressed out.
[22:22]And anxious about it that I just started going all the time.
[22:25]Now, I love it.
[22:26]It's such a good release.
[22:27]And yeah, I'm excited in the city and things
[22:30]are getting better and I live with a bunch of my good friends.
[22:33]So yeah, lots of positive things going on.
[22:37]OK, thank you.
[22:39]I needed to feel better knowing that you were having a good life.
[22:42]So thank you for doing that for me.
[22:45]What's your new book called?
[22:46]Can you say?
[22:48]I don't title yet.
[22:50]It's still very, really young.
[22:51]But yeah, it's really, it's honest.
[22:54]I'm thinking about trying maybe to transition
[22:56]at even towards the YA space.
[22:58]Oh, yes.
[22:59]It's a more young adult because I am closer to that age
[23:03]than I'd like to be.
[23:05]And I relate to a lot of things still.
[23:07]And I grew up reading John Green and all these big young
[23:11]adult fiction writers and they kind of shaped me
[23:13]and how I approached writing and reading.
[23:15]And I know it's so exciting.
[23:16]So that's something that I'm exploring right now.
[23:18]That's awesome.
[23:19]I love it.
[23:20]Well, maybe one of these days I'll see you in New York.
[23:22]I'm not there now, but I will be in the fall.
[23:24]So I'm going to cross paths and everything.
[23:27]And yeah, I have so much respect for you.
[23:29]You're really, really great writer.
[23:31]And I'm taking, I don't know, hitching my wagon.
[23:36]I don't even know what the right expression is.
[23:38]I can't wait to watch your progress
[23:40]because I will read everything you write.
[23:42]I think you're great.
[23:42]Oh, thank you.
[23:43]I appreciate that.
[23:44]And I'm so excited for you.
[23:45]Oh, thanks.
[23:46]Yeah, I mean, we have a separate talk
[23:48]about the publication process.
[23:50]Yes, please.
[23:51]Yeah, it's like coming out there
[23:53]because it's a strange experience.
[23:54]But yeah, it's not too much in having to have people
[23:58]judge up your most painful memories every time
[24:00]you talk about your book, which is also interesting.
[24:04]I'm like, OK, here we go.
[24:05]I'm going here again.
[24:07]Yeah.
[24:08]Yeah, just do yourself for a little bit.
[24:09]It's yeah.
[24:10]And I'm the perpetrator in this case,
[24:12]but not always so anyway, congratulations.
[24:18]And stay in touch.
[24:19]Yeah, definitely.
[24:20]Thank you so much for having me.
[24:21]OK, bye-bye.
[24:23]Thanks for listening to this episode of Mom's Don't
[24:26]Have Time to Read Books.
[24:27]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[24:30]and at Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:32]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[24:35]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:36]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[24:42]for the Sound Editing.
[24:43]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:45]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.