Stephanie Wrobel, THIS MIGHT HURT
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[1:14]Stephanie Roel is the author of this might hurt and the international best-selling author of darling rose gold
[1:20]She grew up in Chicago
[1:21]But has been living in the UK for the past three years with her husband and dog mousse bark winkle
[1:26]She has an MFA from the Emerson college and has had short fiction published in Bellevue literary review
[1:32]Before turning to fiction. She worked as a creative copywriter at various advertising agencies
[1:37]Welcome Stephanie. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss this might hurt
[1:44]Thank you so much for having me zivy
[1:46]My pleasure, and I was just looking at your pi lady pi at pi lady books with the plate that you said she made out of sugar that's so cool
[1:54]I know she's so talented like every time she posts a new one. I'm like, oh, what's she's up? What's she up to next?
[1:59]Totally, totally
[2:00]I have this dream to open a bookstore
[2:02]I want to call it crummy books and sell like crumb cakes and books and
[2:05]Anyway, I tagged her and I'm like, oh, maybe she could make the pies and it could be a whole thing and anyway
[2:10]I got dream store right yeah, this is my new vision just have to figure out where to put it anyway
[2:18]We talked last about darling rose gold and actually we first met at that
[2:22]What do you call it like a party media whatever with a Berkeley hat right forever ago?
[2:27]And since then now you have this new book out tell everybody about this book and and do it and maybe we'll go back to
[2:33]Darling rose gold in case people
[2:35]Our new listeners and hadn't heard about it last time sure
[2:38]So this might hurt is my second book and it's about
[2:42]Three women and two of them are sisters named Natalie and Kit Collins
[2:46]When the book starts Natalie hasn't heard from her sister in six months because Kit has gone away to this private
[2:51]Retreates on an island off the coast of Maine and and the the retreat is called wisewood
[2:57]And so the rules are very strict there. No outside contact with family and friends
[3:01]We're all focused on our inner cells make like reaching our maximize selves
[3:06]And so because of this Natalie hasn't heard from kit for six months
[3:09]But just around the time when she expects that kit should be coming home
[3:12]And she instead gets an email from the wisewood account that says we know what you did
[3:16]Would you like to tell your sister or should we and so that really sets the novel and most
[3:21]It gets Natalie going to Maine going to find her sister hopefully to come clean with her and try to bring her back home
[3:28]Wow and do like a
[3:30]Flashback synopsis if you even
[3:32]Are you even remember your elevator pitch for Darling rose gold just that has been a while now someone is probably a little
[3:40]So Darling rose gold is my debut and that was a story of two women a mother and daughter
[3:46]It starts with the mother getting out of prison
[3:48]She's been away for five years or abusing her daughter
[3:53]And so the story takes place in two timelines
[3:55]The mother's perspective patty is in the present day
[3:59]Starting with her getting out of prison
[4:00]And then the daughter's perspective rose gold starts five years earlier
[4:03]And it really goes through the journey that happens while her mother has been away at prison
[4:08]And let's just say their reunion is tense to put it mildly
[4:12]Where are you coming up with the ideas for these books?
[4:16]I think it's just you know each one is like sort of just something that obsesses me
[4:21]So you know with the first one night
[4:23]I really couldn't understand like
[4:26]People with munch house and by proxy
[4:27]Which is the illness that patty the mother has
[4:30]Where caregivers fake or induced illness and their and their charges
[4:34]I really wanted to get in the head of you know what sort of parent does this do they actually think they're doing
[4:39]What's best for their child do they know they're doing something wrong
[4:42]And then with this might hurt it was really about cults
[4:45]So why is what is calling itself a retreat
[4:47]But it's operating very much as a cult whether they think so or not
[4:51]And it really started with wanting to know what kind of person joins a cult
[4:55]What kind of person starts a cults
[4:56]And so those are two of the points of views
[4:59]A member and a leader
[5:00]And then the third one is that sort of outsider who is trying to you know pull the member out of the clutches of it
[5:08]Who is most in danger of joining a cult?
[5:10]So it's actually you know I was expecting to find like certain personality traits
[5:15]You know I did a lot of research and real life cults
[5:18]And it actually the only commonality I could find across every single one was somebody searching for something more
[5:24]Which is incredibly general I realized
[5:26]But you know it definitely wasn't a case of education or wealth or gender or race
[5:32]It was anybody could be susceptible
[5:34]If you hit them at just the right or wrong time in their lives where you know
[5:38]They're dissatisfied
[5:39]They're looking for higher purpose deep for meaning
[5:42]And it actually helped once I came to that realization
[5:44]Because it made the job of portraying someone who joins one a lot easier
[5:48]Because I was like oh sure like I there's been moments in my life
[5:52]Where I've been rudderless and sort of like searching for meaning like
[5:55]I didn't wind up in a cult
[5:56]But you know people don't join cults as the thing they join
[6:00]Social groups or churches or whatever
[6:03]And it starts out pretty innocuous
[6:05]And then it's slowly like you know things start to get a little more questionable
[6:09]And then shaky your ground and so on and so forth
[6:11]So you know a lot of times we watch these Netflix documentaries
[6:15]And the first episode is people in you know uniforms and cutting all their hair off
[6:19]And all of that stuff
[6:20]But that's not how it starts of course
[6:22]You know it's it's much more it's much slower than that
[6:25]And honestly like a lot of these groups like do start out with a
[6:29]With a good you know good changes coming into the world trying to like do something positive
[6:34]So it's not even a case from the beginning
[6:36]You know where anyone could really necessarily highlight or say yeah, I don't know I better watch out for that
[6:43]Okay, so I'm not as worried anymore
[6:48]It's amazing
[6:50]Don't you wonder what people think after like all your cults Google searches and like are you getting funny ads?
[6:56]No, but I'm sure I must be on some sort of like FBI watch list
[7:00]I mean, I think like every novelist has to be you know
[7:03]It's like your Googling sorts of things like how long does it take a body to disintegrate
[7:07]You know, you're just like oh god, please like connect this
[7:15]And what was it like structuring the book?
[7:17]When did you how did you figure out like do you have a whole plan ahead of time?
[7:20]Did it unravel like how much structure did you have when you started?
[7:26]Yeah, you know, I've realized because now I'm I'm on the second draft of my third book as well
[7:30]I've realized that I do always go in with a plan
[7:33]But then like the it completely unravels by the time I get to the second draft
[7:37]so I almost I've come to realize that the
[7:41]The plan is more just a security blanket for me to actually get the draft onto paper
[7:46]And if it completely changes which it has every single time then so be it
[7:51]So yeah, the as far as the structure for this might hurt goes
[7:54]I knew that well
[7:55]I started with the two the two perspectives of the leader and the member
[7:59]I didn't know I'm trying not to give anything away
[8:04]The third perspective would come in until a bit later, but
[8:08]That's Natalie on the outsider
[8:09]She sort of represents the viewer. She's new to us
[8:11]Which she doesn't know the rules all of that stuff
[8:14]I didn't know how I would interweave them
[8:17]The book is broken into three parts and it's sort of like two perspectives in part one
[8:21]And then another two and part two and then them all in part three
[8:23]So it was a lot of moving that stuff around
[8:26]But I think once you know the beginnings and ends in terms of like the range of time
[8:31]You know one story takes place only over six months another story takes place over a lifetime quite literally from you know five years old to
[8:41]Whatever so so yeah, those for me those things as long as I know those things
[8:46]I actually find structure quite interesting and easy
[8:50]It's one of the easier challenges for me as a writer to kind of wrap my head around and so I think that's why I'm constantly playing around with
[8:55]Timeline and perspectives and stuff
[8:58]So crazy that you just get to do it however you want right you can do like I'm gonna jump into her mind
[9:02]Now I'll do a chapter from her point of view. No actually
[9:05]I think I'll keep it in her point of view like from that
[9:07]We just so neat to do like walking down the street. Like I think I'll take that point of view right now
[9:12]I mean, so yeah, it's I mean, that's why you know
[9:15]Getting into sort of your own creative world is so freeing because we can't control the world around us and a lot of times
[9:22]You know, it feels scary or unsettling, but this is a place where you are God
[9:26]And you do have total control you can just jump from perspectives and what you say goes
[9:31]So yeah, it's it's delightful. Yeah, if you want to be in charge right in
[9:37]Right an apple. Yeah, you go. I think you feel a little too unsettled
[9:43]Come to fiction world. They should do like an amusement park. It's called fiction world. You could just anyway never end
[9:47]I'm gonna stop so how did you end up being a writer go back to that?
[9:53]And I know that some of it like devtailed when you were in London and I guess you just came back. Yeah, yeah
[9:58]So I'm transitioning currently
[10:00]from the UK to US, just to be closer to family and stuff like that, but so I was a copywriter
[10:06]at several ad agencies before I was an author. So I was writing, you know, TV ads, radio, print,
[10:12]billboards, like all that good stuff, but writing books just didn't seem like a very reliable way
[10:17]to pay one's rent. So I was, it kind of was just like a back burner dream that I didn't take
[10:22]very seriously in my 20s. And then when I moved to London the first time advertising is incredibly
[10:28]competitive there. And so I was just kind of bouncing around from freelance job to job.
[10:32]And then there was a long period of unemployment and that was tough. It definitely made me
[10:37]reassess things, but it also sort of gave me the little nudge to go, you know what,
[10:42]one is there going to be a better time than right now. So I said I'll give myself two years to
[10:47]do an MFA because I had no, I'd never taken a creative writing class before and applied to schools
[10:52]in the States. I did up at Emerson in Boston and the thesis that I wrote there was darling
[10:59]rose gold. So I didn't anticipate it going quite that well, but I didn't know going into the
[11:04]program. I want to write my first novel. I had started lots never finished one and I was like,
[11:09]this is this is very like I'm going to take this seriously. And I figured like worst case,
[11:14]I get a degree out of it. Best case, maybe I get an agent or something. And I certainly did not
[11:18]expect it to then get published, but that was a lovely surprise. And here I am four years later.
[11:26]Oh my gosh, amazing. It's so exciting. So how does it feel? There's like being a novelist and like
[11:32]that's your job. It's incredible. I mean, I will say the thing that nobody else shouldn't say
[11:38]nobody, but I think that doesn't get mentioned as much once you've made it, you know, so much of
[11:43]writing it, but career advice is about, you know, how to get the agent, how to get the book deal.
[11:47]but I think the thing that isn't discussed as much is like once you have those things,
[11:52]at least for me, like I'm just terrified of losing them to just to be totally honest. So
[11:57]there is definitely a lot of fear of like, I know how lucky I am. I know that millions of people
[12:02]would like love to have the same job. And so there is a sense of just like, I have to like keep,
[12:07]you know, I could try to do my best, but you know, of course, artist objective, you know,
[12:12]you never know how it will be received. So so it's definitely a dream come true to sound
[12:17]completely cliche, but it's also there's also like a healthy level of fear that's just sort of like
[12:23]this idea of like, oh, I actually realized my dream and like it is as wonderful as I thought,
[12:28]and now I'm like a little terrified of it being taken away. I feel like that's that's like the fear
[12:34]of motherhood too a little bit. And I mean, like, I'm so excited. I love my kids so much,
[12:38]but there's always this deep-seated fear, like what if, you know, and I'm like, you know, I don't
[12:42]know, it's like this deep rooted not to make that not to make it. I know I can't even
[12:48]fathom that. Like if I had kids, I feel like I would like never sleep well another day. I'm like,
[12:53]don't worry, can't even have like my dog is about the level of love. So when you're not writing,
[12:59]what are you up to? So typically, well, pre COVID times, a lot of travel living in the UK was great
[13:07]because it was such an easy jump to anywhere in Europe. So got to see a lot of that part of the world.
[13:13]I also love eating and cooking. So it's been a lot of time doing that. Of course, reading,
[13:18]I mean, that's just kind of a given, I think, if you're a writer, but yeah, it's this year because
[13:23]of the transition between UK and US. It's just been a lot of jumping around, just trying to attend
[13:29]to all needs, trying to move. And so yeah, it's been a bit of a chaotic year, a bit more nomadic
[13:34]than usual, but it's kind of nice after, you know, three, two, three years of, you know, just being
[13:40]grounded because of the pandemic. That's awesome. Amazing. So like 10 years from now, what do you think?
[13:47]Assuming that nothing goes wrong? Where are you going to be? Where do you think you're going to
[13:51]play? Like what's your flash forward or what's on your wishlist? On my wishlist. So I will still
[13:58]be writing novels. I would also really like to break into screenwriting. That's a serious goal of
[14:03]mind writing movies and TV in terms of lifestyle. I would really like to live somewhere where I can
[14:09]be very outdoors and, you know, hiking beach, all that sorts of stuff. But yeah, to be honest,
[14:15]like it's, I feel like I'm very close to what I want, but it's just there's a few things that
[14:20]I'm like, this would make it even better. Like on the, the step to becoming a full-time author was
[14:25]really the biggest one. So now it's, it's more about developing as a writer, getting better at the
[14:31]craft and then just sort of expanding into other mediums like screenwriting and just sort of
[14:36]experimenting with those kinds of things. And from your experience so far, what, what do you think
[14:41]needs to change about the publishing industry? Oh, God. I mean, it's, yeah, it's interesting. It's,
[14:48]I was surprised coming into a house slow moving is it's interesting. I mean, I don't know what I
[14:54]would necessarily speed up about it because obviously you don't want a rush job, but it is weird
[15:00]talking about creative projects that you've finished, you know, one to two years after,
[15:05]you know, you're already like, your heart is in like the next thing, very deep into the next thing.
[15:10]And I think readers are often surprised by that. They think, you know, oh, you just finished it,
[15:14]like you, you know, your top of your mind, whatever. On the other hand, it's great to have that
[15:20]distance because you're not as vulnerable to it, I guess. Like after, you know, when you get those
[15:26]first reactions, of course, you're a little, not a little here, but you're vulnerable, of course,
[15:32]but like the more they come in and the more distance you have from it, the more excited you are
[15:35]about the next project, the less scared you are of that. So I think, I don't know, that's,
[15:41]that didn't really answer your question. I think there's certainly changes inside the industry,
[15:46]I think continuing to publish more diverse voices, own voices, you know, it's, it's been great
[15:55]to see more women writers getting a lot of the spotlight. I feel like the publishing industry is
[16:02]also dominated by women, which is really lovely to have that sort of camaraderie. But my experience
[16:08]with my specific publishers has been wonderful. I really can't complain about that. I think
[16:14]it's more the things that I would like to see are more just, you know, the overall industry versus
[16:19]my specific publishers. Anything, any other advice for aspiring authors? Yeah, I always say,
[16:28]you know, the first piece would be to set measurable goals for yourself, which I know is like
[16:34]probably every writer says that, but really, I do think you can languish forever on something,
[16:40]but if you don't, like, if you don't set something for your, like, what am I working toward?
[16:44]It doesn't have to be super aggressive. If, you know, time doesn't allow, I know everyone has
[16:48]busy schedules and full-time jobs, but I think whether it's X number of words or one chapter
[16:54]or 10 minutes or whatever, the sense of accomplishment that you have actually finishing a project
[16:59]or revising a project is it really goes a long way, I think, into making you feel like a legitimate
[17:06]writer. The second thing that I like to offer is getting feedback from a qualified source.
[17:13]So I think that means unless your family and friends are in the industry, like, not necessarily
[17:18]family and friends, because in my case, at least they're going to tell me what I write is great,
[17:21]even what it's garbage. You know, so that's, I think, a tricky thing if you're not, you know,
[17:26]if you don't have contacts, which most of us don't, or if you haven't done a program, but
[17:30]there are lots of ways to get that feedback. And the last one is to educate yourself on the industry.
[17:38]And that's, you know, that's almost not almost. That's a job on its own. It's not just about the
[17:42]creative, like you really also have to understand how the industry works, understand the process
[17:46]of querying to get an agent and all of that stuff, some of it's easier to find than others.
[17:51]Like, the getting an agent thing is there's loads of information online, but even being in the
[17:56]industry myself, there's stuff, you know, in terms of financials and things like that there,
[18:00]that's something that I wish is more. And I wish that the financials were less opaque and more
[18:05]shared. I think there can be a lot of secrecy around publishing. And I don't think that works to
[18:11]anyone's benefit. So I do wish that that sort of information was more widely available.
[18:17]So yeah, those are my, that's it. There it is. A combo answer to your last two.
[18:20]I like it. I'll take it. Well, Stephanie, thank you so much. Thanks for coming back on
[18:25]mom's no time to read books and telling us about this might hurt and all your, all the stuff
[18:30]you're up to. So thank you. Thanks, Sydney. All right, bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of
[18:36]mom's. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and
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[18:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to
[18:55]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.