Emily Giffin, MEANT TO BE: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
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[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
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[0:22]I am now an author myself
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[1:13]Emily Giffin is the author of meant to be a novel
[1:16]This is the second time Emily has come on mom's and have time to read books
[1:19]She is a graduate of Wake Forest University and the University of Virginia School of Law
[1:24]The number one New York Times best-selling author of many novels, including something borrowed something blue baby proof
[1:32]Love the one you're with heart of the matter where we belong the one and only first comes love all we ever wanted
[1:37]The lies had bind and now meant to be she currently lives in Atlanta with her husband and three children
[1:44]And Emily was so nice and invited me to be the moderator at her launch event
[1:49]downtown for meant to be and I had the best time and
[1:53]And and so grateful because it was really really fun
[1:56]Welcome Emily. Thank you so much for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books to discuss meant to be
[2:02]Thank you zibby for having me. I'm so excited to see you again
[2:05]I have my book tour with you on June 2nd in New York City and
[2:10]This is one of my last podcast here at the conclusion of the tour
[2:14]So it feels fitting. It's great to see you and congratulations on book ends the launch of book ends
[2:20]Thank you so much such a fabulous job. I'm seeing it everywhere. And it's a beautiful book. Thank you
[2:26]And we have that's when we discovered you know, I think how much because when you read the lies that bind
[2:31]Which was had 9-11 as a theme when we sort of discovered how
[2:36]Much we had in common living in New York at the same time and experiencing 9-11 as New Yorkers and yeah
[2:43]We that was when we bonded two years ago. That's right
[2:47]I know it's nice. Well, first of all, it's nice to see you on
[2:51]Both ends of your book tour, but yes, I mean
[2:55]That's why I responded so much to your last book. I mean, I love this book as well
[2:58]Like I love how you write but there was that
[3:01]You know, I mean, I know the whole world sort of went through 9-11
[3:04]But yeah, yeah, you have a personal experience or whatever and you wrote about it so beautifully and
[3:10]When you have front, you know when you lose a friend and we're so close to it
[3:14]It's definitely like yeah, it's a it's a shared experience awful though. It is
[3:20]It's you know, I think it also brings people together as tragedies have a way of doing so
[3:26]Yeah, but we won't we won't talk about we won't we don't have to go there
[3:30]Okay meant to be
[3:32]Very different than the last book. We had such a great conversation
[3:36]I was just saying this to you. I wish I had like recorded it or something
[3:39]I brought all my kids to your laundry was the most fun ever
[3:43]We'd never been down to that whole area for and like you're there were women just like flocking all in hot
[3:52]Waiting for you. It was so exciting to see somebody like energized excited passionate fans of yours getting together
[3:59]Which was awesome
[4:00]It was really special and your kids and husband being there my son being there was really I think there's a lot of you know
[4:07]People are just so excited to be back in person, you know knock on wood. It feels like another
[4:14]You know wave is coming here, but but yeah, it's just was really nice to see
[4:19]Say everyone and chat with you about the bulk and you're right
[4:21]It's different this meant to be is different than my last book and really different than the 10 that came before it
[4:27]So this is my 11th novel, but this is the first time that I sort of drew on
[4:32]You know a real-life historical event. It's not historical fiction
[4:34]But it was inspired by John F. Kennedy Jr. And
[4:39]has a beautiful
[4:41]bride
[4:42]Carolyn beset and you know, there are sort of tragic story inspired me
[4:47]To to write this book. So it's not based on them. It's entirely fictional characters Joe
[4:52]Kingsley and Kate Cooper in the book are there very their own people with their own unique backstories
[4:59]But it's definitely rooted in that
[5:02]Historical, you know, background and my love of the Kennedy family which we talked about a lot that night
[5:08]But you grow up interested in the Kennedys. Did your did you either of your parents voice that upon you?
[5:14]Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they foisted it, but sure
[5:17]I mean, how could you not be sort of totally captivated by the
[5:21]The glamor and especially the two of them. I mean, I wasn't like obsessed obsessed perhaps like you, but
[5:28]You know, I feel like I was more if you're gonna go in the like obsession
[5:33]World, I feel like I was more obsessed with like princess Diana from a young age, right?
[5:38]Well, I was hurt too. I mean, I think she she growing up
[5:42]It was just all about the history and the politics and the family and you know
[5:46]Really, you know, she would she would tell me about you know
[5:48]Where she was when Kennedy was assassinated and you know
[5:52]She's watching her soap opera that was interrupted by Walter Cronkite
[5:55]You know, it's the three separate news bulletins
[5:58]Presidents been shot and you know the president, you know, and then of course presents died
[6:03]So she you know, I was sort of aware of the
[6:06]All of the the the heavy backstory the Kennedy curse
[6:10]All like all the things that had happened and then
[6:13]You know fast forward to the mid 90s when I was graduating from law school at Virginia
[6:19]Which of course is like a school where a lot of the Kennedys, you know, Kennedys went to law school
[6:23]Which was not lost on me when I made that decision
[6:26]You know graduated moved to New York City to work at a big firm and this was during George magazine and the
[6:33]When when John was I think he had just broken up with Darryl Hannah
[6:38]Yep, he would never ever wanted to know who he was dating and then he strikes up this relationship with this like mystery
[6:44]Blonde that no one really knew anything about she was in fashion worked in Calvin Klein
[6:49]So I was you know, fascinated by them as a couple and I don't consider myself like a huge follower of the tabloids
[6:58]But in the mid 90s it was like, you know, that was the the it they were the it couple
[7:04]And I think part of what that was about was they had the family have been through so much tragedy that we all sort of pinned a lot of hopes
[7:13]Of happily ever after on this little boy who lost his father when it was just three years old
[7:19]You're saluting that casket with his, you know, with mother draped in black the black veil and you know having to leave the White House
[7:27]Very abruptly and raise her children alone in New York City
[7:30]I mean, there was just so much hope into this
[7:33]Bright, you know, the brown-eyed like infectious charm like this boy that was growing up in New York City
[7:39]And we just wanted the all the best for him. And then of course he blossomed into the hottest man
[7:46]I mean, I've ever seen I mean, I think a lot of people universally like you like consider him the gold standard of beautiful men
[7:54]And so we just wanted him to be happy of course that didn't happen and his story ended just as tragically
[8:01]But I remember being in the Hamptons and I write about this in my author's note
[8:06]At the end of the book being being there waking up in a crowded Hampton chair in the basement with you know
[8:12]People sleeping everywhere as you do in the year 20s when you you know
[8:15]You can't afford nicer accommodations and the TV was on and it's just like, okay
[8:21]There's a plane crash like who is it? I thought it was a senator
[8:23]I thought it was a congressman. I was trying to figure out then I hear it's
[8:27]You know, it's John and Carolyn and Carolyn sister Lauren
[8:30]And it was just and they were flying of course to Rory Kennedy's wedding his cousin and
[8:37]It was so surreal and shocking and awful, but I kept thinking surely he's going to emerge from the surf
[8:44]With his like little, you know, grand and like oh, I had you know, it was a crazy story
[8:50]But I landed the plane and if you know, we we all know that didn't happen
[8:53]But I think the seeds were planted around that time
[8:56]I was practicing law and not yet a like a you know
[9:00]A lot shouldn't say I wasn't a writer because I've always been a writer
[9:02]But I'm not a publisher writer, but I think the seeds were planted that if like this like this what if like you know
[9:09]And I think a that fuels a lot of my fiction and I think fiction generally these
[9:14]You take a situation and then you sort of wonder like you know what if and that definitely
[9:20]Happened with this book and I think it was a long time in the coming to write to write this like fictional account of these
[9:26]You know of this this iconic mid 90s couple and it was a lot of fun to go back and
[9:32]And revisit that time, you know, you were you were in the city
[9:36]You know what that was like like pre pre 9 11
[9:40]And I think sometimes we become overly nostalgic about decades past and gone by and we see you know
[9:46]It's like rose colored glasses and you only remember
[9:49]You know, you don't remember the fact that you know
[9:54]Monica Lewinsky was completely demonized in in in a situation that now she would be
[10:00]like the Me Too victim and, you know, as it should be.
[10:03]And so a lot of things have changed for the better.
[10:05]But for purposes of this novel, it was really about, you know, revisiting that sort of golden
[10:11]feel of a simpler time is dangerous to call. And like in a simpler time. But, you know what I mean?
[10:17]Just, you know, New York City and Tribeca and this couple. And I planted a lot of like places
[10:24]where John and Carolyn actually hung out. And so it was fun to revisit my
[10:30]my 20s and single years in New York City as it was then. So I feel like, and you probably have
[10:37]heard this before, especially as you're going about talking about the spec. But you don't look that
[10:43]different from, like, you are the Carolyn Beset Kennedy sort of, you have that same look.
[10:48]No, seriously. I mean, you can tell. Okay. I'll say, I'll say this. First of all, I'm glad that this is
[10:54]this is audio. And that is everyone would be like, what is she talking about? But I think that
[11:00]there's a, I have heard that a lot, a lot, which is always surprising to me because she's so
[11:07]glamorous and I'm so decidedly not. But I think facial feature wise, we do have like the longer
[11:13]nose and the fuller lips and the longer, you know, longer face. Like there are definitely some
[11:17]facial similarities. But body, no, not at all. I'm short legs. She has long, she had long legs.
[11:23]And then of course, just the inherent glam like this open book, you know, no glam at all. And she
[11:29]was just this mystery icon. So I think the similarities stopped with just some facial features. But
[11:35]thank you. I always take it as the highest of compliments. So thank you for that. Well, also, I mean,
[11:42]I think that was part of the allure of her is I feel like nobody really knows what she was totally
[11:47]like. You know, like, like, because she was so private. And who knows, maybe you two have more
[11:52]in common than you think that she was the one that interrupts. And I think part of what is so
[11:59]captivating about them is what, you know, and that's why I chose to set the book back in the 90s
[12:04]because this story, of course, you know, it would work in any, you know, you could set it in
[12:09]any time. You could set it could have easily set it in the present. But there's something about
[12:14]the 90s and that was kind of the last moment in time where, you know, I guess a little longer
[12:20]into the early 2000s. But where there wasn't this like explosion of social media and there are
[12:24]people, celebrities weren't so accessible. There were still mystery around them. You know, it wasn't
[12:28]just everyone, you know, on Instagram and Twitter and everything else just showing what they're
[12:34]doing on a day to day basis. And I love that accessibility. And I think it's brought us all
[12:39]closer to a lot of ways for better or worse. I think it's, it's sort of undermined the
[12:43]allure of, of celebrity in some ways because that mystery has, it has sort of, you know, evaporated
[12:51]in many ways. And I wonder what, she was so, so private by any account of her inner circle,
[12:58]which we do have, you know, people from her inner circle who, who have shared and enlightened us
[13:02]about what she was really like and what she felt. And it's sort of very consistent that she hated
[13:06]the attention. And, you know, I, so I wonder what she have had at Instagram. I don't think she
[13:11]would. I just don't. But, you know, if you had entered into the world of politics, she would have
[13:17]had to become more public. You know, who, who knows? Again, it's that what if. It's that wondering
[13:23]what if, what would it have been like. But I also think that one of the things about her,
[13:27]one thing that she does share with Kate Cooper in the book, or I should say Kate Cooper shares
[13:31]with her, is, is this, this concept of being in love with John and Joe in the book in spite of their
[13:40]fame and not because of it. And I think that, that feels rare. You know, in this fame obsessed,
[13:48]celebrity obsessed culture. I mean, maybe that's not fair. Maybe we're sort of projecting that on to,
[13:55]to people, but it seems like a lot of celebrities or dating other celebrities to sort of increase
[14:02]their clout or like that's their, what they're accused of doing. You know, like, is this, I mean,
[14:06]you hear it with JLo and, because she's a Jeff now, right? She changed her name. But you hear
[14:13]it with those two. It's like, is this, is this a, is this a ploy? Is this the stunt? You know,
[14:17]is this, are they just trying to get more famous? I don't think it is. I think it's true love,
[14:22]but I'm like a sucker for that. Thank you, by the way, for posting. I read about the whole
[14:28]then I feel like JLo thing on your account. And like that whole thing. And then I was like,
[14:33]is Emily making this up? Is this like going to be one of her like funny? Like is this like a
[14:37]parody of something or is this actually statement? And then I had like go cross reference and
[14:41]see if they really thought married. Wasn't it sweet though? I thought it was really like
[14:48]sweet and heartfelt. I mean, I don't know. Again, I'm like, that just glass half full believing in
[14:55]like true love. And I love the fact that they was rekindled 20 years later. Like there's,
[15:00]I have very little cynicism. And unless it's like beaten into me and I see so much evidence
[15:06]to the contrary. And then I'm like, okay, I'm a, I'm a cynic too. But yeah, I thought it was,
[15:10]I thought it was sweet. Not to veer off in that direction. I know. Sorry about this. Sorry.
[15:15]No, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm going to continue to do it here. But did you notice how like
[15:21]young like her dress was like so young looking like so like first bride looking that, and then
[15:29]she, her taking his name, which she's never done before. Like I was wondering, I was talking to a
[15:36]friend last night about it. You can see what I do in my free time. But there's almost the sense of
[15:42]like, I feel like she, this is what she's like always wanted. And she's going back to her like
[15:47]inner, like, you know, 20 year old self of like how she thought she would get married and what
[15:55]the world would look like. And I just really hope that that's true for her. Like that's really,
[16:01]that this is really like the real thing. Like this is really like going the stick. I don't know.
[16:06]Yeah. Who knows?
[16:08]I guess I could book though. It'd be a good fiction book to write about a couple, not not,
[16:12]I probably wouldn't do another famous couple ever again or no time soon, but this whole concept
[16:18]of being together in 20 years later, being together again. I mean, you hear about that with like
[16:23]Facebook. You reconnect actually had. So my babysitter now, we're really getting off topic here. But
[16:28]my babysitter Carrie who was my babysitter when I was probably like five or something like that
[16:34]was our mother's helper for a summer. She went to Skidmore. I thought she was like the coolest thing
[16:37]ever. She had like one of those 1980s drawbacks, you know, that everybody used to hear like,
[16:42]anyway, she, she wouldn't come back the second summer to babysit us unless her boyfriend came.
[16:48]So my mom got him a job at the palm restaurant out here in a sample and they ended up breaking up,
[16:57]but Fred ended up marrying the daughter of the owner of the palm and ended up becoming like the
[17:03]head of the palm restaurants for a while. And then we went to Carrie's wedding. She married
[17:08]somebody else. She moved to New Mexico. I think Fred moved with his wife to Washington DC.
[17:14]And they both had three boys. And then they both got divorced, found each other on Facebook after
[17:21]all this time. And now they're married. I love it. Did you know what? I feel like I should write a
[17:26]book about that. Yeah. Are they should write a book about that? Did I go to their wedding? No,
[17:31]it was just like their family and whatever. But yeah, now they have like six boys. But there's so
[17:37]many stories. I mean, relationships are so complicated and messy and they take such turns and twists.
[17:44]And it's like there's just that's that's that's that's what I love to write about and just how
[17:49]complicated we are and how how we get things wrong. And we screw up and we mess up. And it's,
[17:54]you know, stories about forgiveness and redemption and, you know, you see these themes and
[18:00]and meant to be and you really see them, I think, throughout all my books. Because I think that's
[18:04]life. That's relationships. That's, you know, who we are. So yeah, it's it's been special to
[18:10]hear how readers have connected with these two characters who, you know, are so different than,
[18:17]you know, a lot of the readers, but there's universal themes there of how we feel about ourselves.
[18:23]So Emily, like 11 novels, how do you keep coming up with new? I mean, I know what if is like a big
[18:30]through line, right? And all this fascination and whatever. But how do you keep doing it? How do you
[18:35]not worry that like what if the next one is not as good as the last one? Or like, how do you keep
[18:41]sort of you have to keep reinventing yourself as an author in a way, right? Because that's the big
[18:45]what if, right? Well, for sure. I mean, you know, it's time to scare up and write the next book,
[18:52]and I have like, you know, my idea, but it's scary. It's scary every time, which is really sort of
[18:59]a metaphor for life, right? I mean, it's like we constantly, you know, have to sort of approach
[19:04]the next new chapter. We might might boys are leaving for college. So I'm going to be seeing
[19:09]more of you in New York, because they're going to Columbia. So amazing. I'm like, hang out.
[19:14]Libby, Zimster, if I call you, or here. Yeah. So it's like, it's scary. It's daunting. Like,
[19:21]what's it going to be like with one child left at home and two gone and, you know, we're moving.
[19:26]And so it's starting a book as in many ways, like little mini chapters of our own lives when
[19:32]we have to sort of, you know, start over with with with with where we are and reinvent ourselves at
[19:38]times. So without whether it's our careers, you saw a lot of that in the pandemic with people's
[19:42]relationships and jobs. And so yeah, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm not scared
[19:47]every time because I definitely am. I'm also a warrior, like just innate anxiety, like fuels me.
[19:54]And I think it's in some ways it's my greatest curse. And in some ways it's my greatest gift,
[19:58]because it really propels.
[20:00]me to, I'm a perfectionist and it just like, you know, I want to get it right.
[20:04]I want to write it the next book that people love.
[20:06]I never want to write a book that I always want people out there to say,
[20:11]this is my favorite of your books.
[20:12]Like not everyone, but at least, you know, at least this subset of my readers,
[20:17]like, no, this one spoke to me the most.
[20:19]So are you a warrior, Zibi?
[20:21]I am a tonal warrior and I was about to say that this is my theory about writers
[20:27]in general that like we all share an anxiety disorder.
[20:30]Like I think 90% of authors or some really high percentage.
[20:34]And I think that's why whenever I talked, like there's this like short hint.
[20:38]I mean, if you're always worried, what if, what if, what if, which is what I think
[20:42]about everything?
[20:43]Right.
[20:43]I always go to like the worst.
[20:45]Right.
[20:46]The, you know, the worst of whatever scenario I'm in, like, and I play that whole
[20:50]thing out.
[20:51]And then if it doesn't unfold that way, I'm like relieved.
[20:53]But I'm like, if you can turn that into writing, which so many people do,
[20:57]I feel like it's a funnel for that.
[20:59]So that's how I feel like so many, if you were out there worrying, you should just
[21:04]write a book.
[21:05]Yeah, that's what I want quite a book.
[21:06]And motherhood doesn't help that much.
[21:08]I think that's that really amped up my, because the stakes are so high.
[21:12]You know, before I had kids and my 20s in New York, it's like, OK, don't lose this
[21:17]wallet in a New York City cab tonight.
[21:19]Like, like, don't lose.
[21:21]And I lost so many purses and wallets.
[21:23]It wasn't when my dad first read something borrowed my first novel.
[21:29]He, he called me and he said, no, well, no wonder you lost so many wallets and
[21:34]purses and like, you were always losing things.
[21:36]And I said, what does that mean?
[21:37]And he goes, all the drinking you were doing.
[21:39]And I'm like, dad, it's fiction.
[21:40]I'm not Rachel.
[21:42]I also didn't have an affair with my best friends fiance, like, fiction that.
[21:46]But of course, you're always drawing on things in your own life.
[21:50]And I guess Rachel, I did, did have that in common.
[21:53]Like that sort of absent mindedness.
[21:55]But, but, but for somebody who's wanted to like be an author, right?
[21:59]Like your career is the dream of so many people, right?
[22:03]You get to just do, you're just right forever.
[22:06]You have all these fans, your best selling author, like, where, how do you still have
[22:12]the drive when you have, is the drive just to top your last book?
[22:17]Like, where does the, where does the drive, like, where are you going with this now?
[22:21]Do you know what I mean?
[22:22]Like what's, yeah?
[22:23]Like what's it telling you?
[22:25]It's, thank you for, for that characterization.
[22:28]I, I try to remind myself of that.
[22:30]I mean, we all get so mired in our worries and our deadlines and everything else.
[22:33]But I always try to back up and say, like, you're not, you know, I'm not a lawyer anymore,
[22:39]which I did not enjoy.
[22:41]Like I get to do what I love.
[22:42]And that's really good reminder and just in general about gratitude and all of our
[22:47]lives.
[22:47]But, you know, really, and it sounds sort of like cheesy, but it's really true.
[22:51]Like, I'm most motivated by wanting my readers to be happy.
[22:56]Because I do feel such a close relationship with them, you know, that in person interaction.
[23:02]I mean, you, you saw the, the event, like it's, you know, it's something that I enjoy.
[23:06]I think some, some writers don't and some do and you really can't fake it.
[23:10]But it's something that I, that I love and I feel a deep connection with, with my readers.
[23:15]And so I don't want to disappoint them.
[23:17]And there's always like a handful that I'll picture.
[23:20]Like, I don't, I don't want, I don't want them to put down the book and be disappointed.
[23:24]So I think that's what really continues to, to, you know, my, my drive to like do my
[23:30]very best with each book.
[23:31]But I think that's also just part of, of who I am, like the little inner nerd and me,
[23:37]the perfect, like the perfectionist, the, the one that didn't want to get bees in college
[23:41]and law school.
[23:42]Although I got plenty of them in law school.
[23:44]But yeah, so, but it's been, it's been fun.
[23:47]And I feel, I do feel very grateful.
[23:48]But I've met great people like you, Zibi, like I, you know, wouldn't have met you
[23:52]without this career and it's just so many fascinating people, especially women.
[23:58]I feel like we have a great community amongst, you know, women writers and readers and
[24:04]supporters of fiction and, you know, it's just, I feel very, very lucky.
[24:08]I know you feel the same too.
[24:10]I feel totally lucky and I'm delighted to have met you.
[24:13]I feel like this is the greatest thing.
[24:15]It's like, you set out to write a book and like you get this whole community of people
[24:19]who are like the nicest, most supportive group ever.
[24:22]Yeah, it's really, it's like out of this world amazing.
[24:25]It really is.
[24:26]I know this is the way men sometimes will say, you know, they'll say, and I don't,
[24:30]I don't do male bashing in my fiction or in real life.
[24:33]You know, I love so many men and have great relationships with, you know, my, the, the
[24:39]males in my life, but they always sort of seem surprised by how much we like lift each
[24:44]other up, you know, it's, it's, and it's, it's interesting because, you know, readers
[24:51]of books, if the more you love books, the more you're growing to read books.
[24:55]So if someone picks up another novel that they love, that's great for our work, like,
[25:01]you know, memoirs included, you know, it's like, that just makes you want to read more.
[25:05]It's like, the worst thing is like a reading drought, you know, like that you don't want
[25:10]the reading drops to happen with readers.
[25:12]You want them to be like, oh my gosh, I read this great book and now I want to read
[25:15]another great book.
[25:16]So it always surprises me when people sort of, you know, pit, pit female writers against
[25:21]one another and in the way that, in the way that some do often men, but that's my male
[25:26]bashing.
[25:27]Yeah.
[25:28]No, I don't think, I'm not even sure it's male female.
[25:29]I think it's this industry.
[25:30]I mean, women in other industries aren't necessarily as supportive of one another as they
[25:35]are in writing.
[25:36]Oh, that's a good, that's a good point.
[25:38]Yeah, maybe, maybe because, you know, what I'm saying, it's not a zero.
[25:42]game.
[25:43]It's not, you know, there's not just like one book, like, you know, in marketing, like
[25:47]you're picking one, you know, I don't know, I don't even know the lingo of those worlds.
[25:53]But, you know, it's not, we can have, we all have a ton of books, right?
[25:58]Like, it's, you know, the more you read, the more you want to read and it's, it's a beautiful
[26:03]thing.
[26:04]And what is your, you do such a great job of cultivating, I know what I'm assuming, what's
[26:08]like your secret in cultivating your audience?
[26:10]I know you keep writing books and you have such a strong Instagram following and everything.
[26:14]But like, if you had advice on authors trying to build their readership and maintaining
[26:20]that sense of community, what's the, what's the secret?
[26:23]I mean, I think as with anything, it would be the same thing that I would say about relationship
[26:28]advice or job advice or, you know, you know, authenticity, like, you have to be yourself,
[26:34]like, you know, you can't look at a formula and say, this is what I should do to gain
[26:39]more followers or to get more readers.
[26:41]Like, you know, I talk about politics and my feet.
[26:45]I, I post my kids in there running and I post my dogs and some people are, you know, not
[26:51]going to be interested in my ducks, my daughter's pet ducks on my Instagram page and,
[26:57]you know, my kids running and, you know, what I have to say about the election in Georgia.
[27:02]But that's to me.
[27:03]It's like, you're, you're going to find your true people and followers and readers if
[27:08]you just are authentically yourself and you have to just sort of go with that and not
[27:12]follow the trends of, you know, fiction or of social media or try to like, you know, analyze
[27:18]too much what's going to garner you the most support and followers and everything else.
[27:23]And you know this already.
[27:25]I mean, I know you're asking the question more generally, but you're very authentic with
[27:29]your and your, you know, social media and your, your personality and your, like, and that's
[27:35]what people want to see.
[27:37]There's too much invitation, right?
[27:39]And, and the world and it's just good to see when people are themselves too.
[27:44]But I always worry, like, what if Instagram disappears?
[27:47]Where will I find all these people ever again?
[27:48]Do you know what I mean?
[27:49]Like, where am I going to find them?
[27:51]But anyway, we say that about my space and look, look where we are.
[27:54]Okay.
[27:55]You're right.
[27:56]You're right.
[27:57]Emily, thank you so much.
[28:00]This has been so much fun.
[28:01]I'm sorry.
[28:02]We didn't talk that much about the book because I feel like we analyzed so much and now
[28:04]I'm like selfish, but meant to be fabulous book for all Emily given fans and people who
[28:10]are not yet Emily given fans, but should be.
[28:13]But after being a number one year times the selling author, I figure you probably
[28:17]know are ready.
[28:18]So, anyway, thank you so much, thank you so much for having me, Zibi and congratulations
[28:24]again on book ends.
[28:25]Thank you.
[28:26]Thank you again for posting.
[28:27]That was so sweet.
[28:28]Anyways, I'll see you in New York then.
[28:31]You're in New York.
[28:32]Bye.
[28:34]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[28:42]Books.
[28:43]Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[28:47]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.