Candice Carty-Williams, PEOPLE PERSON
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[1:29]Candace Cardi Williams is the author of people person
[1:32]Best-selling author Candace Cardi Williams won the 2020 book of the year award at the British Book Awards for her debut novel Queenie
[1:39]Becoming the first black writer to do so Queenie was named the best book of the year by NPR time for raid the Guardian
[1:45]Goodhousekeeping Marie Claire and many more from launching the Guardian and fourth the state short story prize for underrepresented
[1:52]Authors and writing a proud a holiday campaign to Queenie being adapted by Channel 4 her cultural footprint continues to grow
[1:58]Globally or highly anticipated software novel will be published by Scout press
[2:04]Welcome Candace. Thanks for coming on mom's turn of time to read back to discuss people person
[2:10]Can you please tell listeners what people person is about?
[2:16]People person is my second novel and
[2:19]It was mentally you're saying you're saying that very nonchalantly your first novel Queenie was like a huge
[2:25]Massive hit in every single way and so critically claimed and oh my gosh everything good. So thank you
[2:31]That is true. It is true
[2:34]It's really hard because obviously, you know, you'd love to follow up with Queenie with another Queenie
[2:39]But I was like, you know, I think this one has to be something a bit different
[2:42]So yes, Queenie was gosh years ago. I wrote Queenie when I was 25 and I'm now 32 so a lot of time has passed
[2:52]I didn't want I think we're from person, but I definitely a small person, which is very good. We do your 45 like me
[3:04]So people person was meant to be about one person
[3:08]But it ended up being about I think six key people
[3:11]So we have I guess in the center of everything
[3:14]Siral Pennington who is this father of five he is in his
[3:20]fifties. He has five children with four different women and he doesn't have relationships with any
[3:27]Of the children or the women, but he sees himself as this amazing people person and
[3:33]The people who are trying to emulate him and also the people people are his five siblings and they are from the top-down
[3:41]Nikisha, Danny, Dimple, Lizzy and Prince and one night Prince and the wife
[3:48]Prince the wife. Thank you
[3:50]Absolutely one night Dimple who is a middle sibling and even though she hasn't grown up around her other half siblings
[3:57]She very much is a middle child still somehow there is an emergency. There was a crisis with her ex-boyfriend
[4:03]I would give any spoilers away, but she doesn't know to call because she cannot call with me
[4:08]She doesn't need to call as you know to call because she cannot call the police and so she ends up calling her big sister
[4:15]And next thing you know all of her siblings
[4:18]Around her and they're all trying to figure out what to do and how to get through what they need to get through
[4:24]And then unfold the novel and what we'll have is these five people who are basically strangers trying to get to know each other
[4:30]And trying to get to know themselves and trying to understand
[4:34]The relationship to each other but also to this man zero who has no idea who any of them really are
[4:41]Wow, it's so crazy because it
[4:44]The novel opens with the dad driving all around town and like picking up one kid after another and throwing them in the car
[4:50]Not even kids like 14 and 17 and they're all like what are we doing here and none of them some of them didn't even know
[4:56]They had siblings at half siblings and like you paint it's it's just such an amusing little scene here with him
[5:03]just like in this gold Jeep
[5:05]picking all these kids up and them like looking at each other and
[5:09]It's almost like they're stuck in an elevator
[5:11]You know it seems like that random like when you throw people together and they're like suddenly forced interaction
[5:18]What happens with them and what parts of people's personalities come out and I don't know
[5:23]I think that like sets the whole stage for for the rest of it. Yeah. That was a thing
[5:27]I was just kind of like I think so
[5:29]I wrote it and locked down
[5:30]Of it as most people did right then I was in lockdown because we've had a lot of
[5:34]We had more time on our hands, but sometimes somehow somehow less time on our hands
[5:39]But I will think I was I was so lonely when I was writing it
[5:42]I was just by myself
[5:44]Living in a really small flat and just or an apartment
[5:48]And I think I wrote all of those characters because I just needed to hear
[5:52]Voices and people and to hear conflicts and to hear laughter and to hear all of those things
[5:58]And I ended up writing out all these five characters who've got very contrasting personalities
[6:04]As you can tell and it just they became my half siblings. I came boogie and my family
[6:10]Well wait when you were in lockdown alone in your flat. How long did you go without seeing somebody else?
[6:16]Oh, I think the first lockdown we had maybe four months
[6:23]Without anyone
[6:24]They're not even my mom. I eventually went to see my mom. She was the first person that I went to see
[6:30]And she saw me and she just cried and cried and cried and I was like, I can't hug you because
[6:35]What if I have COVID and what if I give you COVID and she was just like, I don't care
[6:39]I do not care. I haven't seen you on a child and she hugged me and I was like, no, I've killed my mom
[6:45]And she was fine. We didn't have kind of it. I didn't have COVID, but it was a really hard time
[6:51]And so in that time that luckily I feel very lucky very privileged that I was able to channel
[6:57]All of my thoughts and feelings and loneliness into a piece of work because a lot of people had to go out and actually what do you know
[7:04]So you are actually working
[7:06]It's work. But it's different from kind of but you know like key workers like you know all those essential walk away
[7:12]Okay, fine. Okay fine. Yes
[7:15]But I know what you mean, but I know I know I do have a
[7:18]Attendance you to to play down what I do when I get in trouble for a lot, but yes, you're right
[7:23]I was also working. Just not key work
[7:26]Just not key work
[7:27]Do you find I feel like when I'm alone for a block through time
[7:30]I end up talking out loud to myself a lot. Do you do that or no?
[7:36]I talked to myself constantly and a friend of mine asked
[7:39]When you talk to yourself, who do you refer to yourself?
[7:42]How do you refer to yourself and I say that usually like we like oh we can do this
[7:46]We've got this. We're gonna do this and she was like oh that's really weird
[7:49]And I was like yeah, maybe I'm like split my myself into tune. It's like me and my brain
[7:55]All together. That's so funny. Yeah. Okay. We'll get now. I don't feel so bizarre
[8:02]No way
[8:04]So without any structure to the day writing this book when lockdown was just like
[8:09]Who knows morning, noon or night?
[8:11]Didn't affect how and when you wrote it versus your process with Queenie like comparing contrast
[8:18]For sure. So with Queenie, I was writing when I was in full-time work
[8:23]And so I went away to a writer's retreat as anyone who was like understood the genesis of Queenie
[8:29]Nose I went to a writer's retreat at Jojo Moises house
[8:33]And that was an amazing time and said that was just me getting
[8:36]A load of it out in that one week and just coming home in every single weekend
[8:40]I would lock myself away
[8:42]Coming from work on a Friday
[8:43]Go to the shops get some food and then I wouldn't emerge until Monday morning
[8:47]Go back to work and do it all again
[8:49]And my friends had to kind of
[8:51]Understand like you're not going to see me for a bit because I'm working on this thing
[8:54]And I'm not really going to say what it is
[8:55]But trust me I'm working on something that I think is important
[8:59]And I think it's gonna matter
[9:01]And then I worked really hard and finished that and this time around
[9:05]I was by myself and I ended up
[9:08]I wrote another version of people person before Queenie was actually released
[9:12]And I just I was editing it in lockdown
[9:15]That was what I was meant to be doing all the time
[9:17]I was on this edit
[9:19]Every single day I went out of my editor was checking with me and I was like
[9:21]Yeah, it's thing while you know I'm working on this. I'm thinking about this
[9:24]I'm just at this point in it and
[9:28]At one point I was like, can you just don't write this novel
[9:30]And you're not going to be able to talk about it committing to me
[9:33]Or with authenticity or is that that's a word?
[9:36]Yeah, yeah
[9:38]With all that visibility if you don't believe in it
[9:40]And so I got rid of it, I binged it and I started a whole nother one
[9:45]And then the next time I saw her when we were able to kind of
[9:49]See people but from a distance she asked how they she thought you were really quiet
[9:54]How's the edit going and I was like, well, I've started another book and she was like, okay
[10:00]We're going to push it back again, okay, I get you.
[10:02]And so this time it was different, but I remember just one night when this idea came to me.
[10:10]Just suddenly seeing all five of these characters really clearly in front of me.
[10:15]I remember I was sitting on what I was eating, what I was doing.
[10:19]And I just saw these five people and I was like, oh, it's their story.
[10:23]And so the first night I wrote 11,000 words.
[10:26]And that was just me and like, yeah, I'm one of those. I'm really intense right there. But that was between 11 p.m.
[10:34]And six a.m. I just wrote the first 10,000 words.
[10:38]And a lot of that hasn't really changed from from my head to the first drop a bit tonight because it was just like, I never feel like you can see what I'm what they're going to do.
[10:47]And then, but the rest of the time refining it and editing it and going through it and just making sure I was always checking in with you this character as well.
[10:56]But it was a very different process because this time I wasn't inspired by people on the street, people on the bus, my colleagues, my friends, I just really had my own brain to go off.
[11:07]So that they're not what even came out. I'm always very surprised that we have something in front of us.
[11:15]How do you know when something is good? Like what you wrote in the middle of the night, like, do you read it the next day? Like do you ever read it out loud? Like how do you, or did you just get this feeling like this is what it is it's totally like I just feel it.
[11:30]I think because I believe that and because I believe them and obviously like the plot of the novel is, you know, it is really like I'm really pushing fiction to the limit. So yeah, I'm just kind of like, you know, there's a book.
[11:42]I mean, Queenie was based in so much realism and so many real conversations, there were relationships and this was just like, I can make departure from that. I was like, no, I'm going to play with the fact that I can write a bit of fiction novel.
[11:55]And so, I guess when I read it back, I was just like, I do believe it and I do believe these people even though it's a fictional story.
[12:04]And then I kept going with it, but I think as with all second novels, I would imagine there is a confidence wobble because you're kind of like, yee, it's not, it's definitely not the first thing I wrote.
[12:14]I remember my copy editor, my British copy editor, not my American one had sent me. She's called Sophie and she copy edited Queenie and she sent it back and I was going through all of her notes and I was like, okay, yeah, that's my sense. I thought I've said that.
[12:27]And at the end, she was like, this is amazing. And I think even better than your first. And I was like, thank you.
[12:35]And that really meant something, you know, like it really, that was the first independent set up eyes on it. I didn't really matter that she kind of, she's been on a journey with me, you know, she was reading Queenie where I was 25, 26 and now she's back with me and she, she felt that and I was like, and if she doesn't have to say anything at all. So I was like,
[12:56]Okay, I believe her.
[12:58]That's amazing. How did you get into writing to begin with?
[13:02]I think it's in writing. I remember so worked in publishing and I just remember looking around and being like, there's nothing here on the shelves I can really relate to.
[13:12]And so I sat up a short story prize in the publishing house I worked at. And then after that, I would say, okay, it's just great, but things are moving fast enough.
[13:21]And I was just trying right. You know, Tony Morrison, you know, you just, you know, you can't see copyrighted effectively.
[13:27]And that was it. And it feels like it's been a really simple journey when I say it like that, but of course there is the writing of it.
[13:35]It's like things like the boring, the conversations.
[13:38]And, but then on the upside, it's that you get to, I'm so I'm such a, I'm very shy person and no one understands that.
[13:46]And so whenever I have to do publicity, like do talks and talk to people, I'm always so, I don't know.
[13:52]I'm always in a state of sort of like, okay, trauma, like we have to do this kind of, you know what talks to myself and be like, we'll get it done.
[14:00]You can just go home and be by yourself and everybody's great. It's okay. And so there's a lot of that stuff. But the reward is when I get to talk to people in the signing queue, it's a one on one and people get to come in.
[14:11]And some people they come over and they're like shaking and they're like, Oh, I'm so nervous to meet you. And I'm like, Oh, I'm the one shaking.
[14:17]Worry. We're both shaking together.
[14:19]And so after that, I enjoy the talking to people one on one and I enjoy the messages from people who are like, I know this life. I know this person. I know this means I've been this person.
[14:33]That really means a lot. That's, that's why I do what I do. I don't.
[14:38]I know that I don't do things for sort of social media validation breaks down our validation.
[14:43]I just really want people to be able to be like, Oh, yeah.
[14:47]Thank you for seeing me. I didn't invent on Monday and the woman in the question and answer period.
[14:55]She said that I was very forgiving of Cyril Pennington and she said, My dad is a Cyril and I wasn't giving, but reading this helped me to let go of that relief or quite me to understand that I should forgive.
[15:15]If I can do one thing, it's that I was really tearful because it was really amazing. So yeah, from where I was then when I was younger and just being like, I just want to connect with people in the ways that allow them to see themselves.
[15:30]And to them is kind of like, I just see it as being able to achieve that. And that's amazing to me.
[15:36]I love that. So awesome. Very inspiring. When you read, what are your go to books, like what are some of your favorites or what are you reading right now or anything.
[15:49]I actually really love poetry. And I think because like, I love to nourish my mind, but I just, it's so hard to find time because we are all so busy as we know.
[15:59]And so I'm not even a mom can be believe. So I'm just kind of like, I'm just busy.
[16:03]It's real. This podcast is for everyone. I know I have it that way because I'm mom and you know, that's the view from which I see everything, but it's for anybody who's busy and wants to learn about books. So that's most people in the world.
[16:15]Exactly. No, exactly. And so I really love poetry because I love to kind of, I think that poets are so amazing at packing so much meaning so much heart so much feeling into a handful of lines. I think it's incredible things. So I always try and have a poetry book nearby.
[16:35]So that if I do have like a minute or I have like 15 minutes, I can do a bit of reading. So at the moment, I'm reading blessed the daughter raised by voice in her head.
[16:44]By also sharing who is an incredible, incredible poet. And so I keep this on my desk and I read it even if I read it over and over again when I have a down time from writing on my way to interviews and I'm about to read.
[16:59]I read that.
[17:01]So did you do that.
[17:02]Love. So I'm, and as you can see the difference, the difference is vast.
[17:06]So we should say because we're on a podcast. The love songs of W. E. B. Du Bois. Yes. And so I am the difference between this and the poetry is is large, but I'm determined because I have heard it's incredible.
[17:20]And so I cannot wait for that. And so I had a really good podcast with honoring you should listen to it. She was like so open. It was really emotional.
[17:30]In your spare time, which you don't have.
[17:32]And so, so a lot of poetry, but also fiction in my very tooth, but then I like to read a lot of nonfiction when I am not writing, but when I'm writing.
[17:41]So I read a lot of nonfiction when I am writing and then fiction when I'm not writing because I'm always good. I'm going to borrow someone's to voice. I haven't had it yet. I don't think I will, but I'm always like just in case, just in case.
[17:56]And so I've just finished reading by the day, this is most biography, which has been I have that I have not read it yet was amazing. And my mom just finished it. She's like, you have to read this. I know I know I have it. I have it right here.
[18:08]No, I love so I love a broad range of fiction and on fiction and poetry, but I think that the moment poetry has a really, really, really good left a really big place in my heart.
[18:19]Well, I feel like people who love to read poetry often write in a in a particular way, not like not the same way, but I don't know. There's something about the pacing or something or the, you know, like the melody you can't quite here.
[18:35]I can't, I can't quite describe, but I don't know. The lyricism. I don't know. I'm even saying.
[18:40]It's also kind of.
[18:42]I think it's also the feeling and I think that I've been asked by very simply, no, would you try some poetry or try writing poetry or try writing plays and I'm always like, that's not my media.
[18:52]My media is very much novels and I think it's kind of to suggest that I could just like do poetry.
[18:58]I think it's kind of like not diminishing what a poet does, but I think it's like I highly respect poets is having a very specific way of telling the story in a way that like I have.
[19:11]I know it's so amazing. I remember like learning about poetry in school and like, well, what do you mean, this is it like just these words.
[19:22]I'm like, I don't get it, you know, but then when I started reading more I'm like, well, this is actually beautiful and my little daughter actually just wrote a poem in school.
[19:32]But she made it look like she like put it in a shape, you know, the words, I know, and it was so beautiful, like this beautiful poem in a shape and I'm like, that's amazing and I couldn't do that.
[19:43]You know, like, anyway, it's, yeah, it's beautiful.
[19:47]Can't do that with novels, can you? So I didn't know.
[19:50]She's the worst or winner.
[19:52]You could make maybe that shape with the stack of pages that when you arranged them.
[20:00]Anyway, what advice would you give to aspiring authors?
[20:05]The advice I would always give when I always love giving is just get on with it and setting the most loving way because I think that we can get in our own way and we can put all of these blocks in place and other people, other people put blocks in place for us sometimes.
[20:20]But I think the thing I kept telling myself whenever I had right block or whenever I doubted myself was just to get on with it because I'm the only person who can write it.
[20:29]I think that every single person who even doesn't want to write has a really amazing story to tell because it's your own story and no one else can tell that for you.
[20:39]And so get on with it in a nice way and then you'll be it's really freeing it's really freeing to just do that it doesn't have to be perfect.
[20:49]I think I think you should write something called the confidence wobble. You said that earlier and I just loved that turn to phrase the confidence wobble, you know, very British, but just so encapsulates that feeling and makes it feel like it's not that big a deal like everybody else is going to feel that way too.
[21:08]So this is my second novel here comes to come actually kind of runs. Look, we just wrote a poem here's my second novel here comes the confidence wobble.
[21:17]There we go, we're writing poetry right now.
[21:21]But yeah, so I think but that never the confidence wobble is a very, very, very real thing and I think that like everyone has it everyone loses their components, but I think it is a wobble, you know, I mean, I think you just kind of have to move with it and let it happen.
[21:36]All right, well, thank you so much for chatting with me today and I hope that this is not been an example of something you had to tuck yourself through and that it was not.
[21:45]And this is the in front of lots of people so I'm like, Oh, okay.
[21:49]Let's do this like I'm in my house. I feel very safe. I know so I was very much looking forward to it. So never know.
[21:55]Oh, good. I'm so glad.
[21:57]All right. Well, it's great to meet you. Congratulations on people person and all of your success and just very, very exciting.
[22:04]Thank you so much. I'll see you soon.
[22:06]I'll see you soon. Bye bye.
[22:08]Bye bye.
[22:09]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:13]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[22:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.