Uli Beutter Cohen, BETWEEN THE LINES: Stories from the Underground
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms don't have time to read books.
[0:10]It is a daily podcast, 365 days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career,
[0:18]their book, their life, and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir,
[0:28]bookends, a memoir of love, loss, and literature, wherever books are sold starting July 1st, and my children's book prints is charming.
[0:36]You can learn more about me at Zivi Owens.com, but really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do.
[0:43]Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the Zcast podcast network.
[0:48]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well.
[0:58]Also, just a quick note that submissions for the Zivi Awards are open and will close on September 15th.
[1:04]Go to ziviowans.com and you will find the Zivi Awards, open submissions where we celebrate all the under-celebrated parts of a book, like the best spine, the best authors note, the best table of contents,
[1:17]and authors can nominate their own best publicist, best editors, and so on.
[1:22]There will be an in-person award ceremony in October in New York.
[1:25]You will not want to miss it. Go to ziviowans.com.
[1:28]Yulie Buter-Cohen is the author and photographer of Between the Lines Stories from the Underground.
[1:35]Yulie is the creator of Subway Book Review, a social media movement that's a new way to discover books, places, and people.
[1:41]She started the project in New York City in 2014.
[1:44]Today, contributors are reporting from 20 cities around the world.
[1:48]You can take a look at Subway Book Review.
[1:50]Although, as she talks about in this episode, she's paused it for now.
[1:53]Subway Book Review has been featured on TV in print and online by New York Magazine Esquire, Forbes Women, glamour,
[1:59]bustle of Vogue, The Guardian, Refinery29, The Atlantic, the BBC, and more.
[2:03]Yulie's interviews work and writing about human connection and belonging has been published by the Washington Post,
[2:09]here magazine The Creative Independent and Have Post.
[2:12]When Yulie's not underground, she creates content and experiences with brands and communities, like Adidas and Warby Parker, among others.
[2:19]She lives in Brooklyn with her, well, she used to live in Brooklyn, but I know now that she moved because you'll hear this in our episode.
[2:25]But she was living in Brooklyn with her husband and her cat, one of whom is a comedy writer.
[2:30]Welcome, Yulie.
[2:31]Thank you so much for coming.
[2:32]On mom's don't have time to read books to discuss Between the Lines Stories from the Underground.
[2:37]I'm so happy to be here with you.
[2:39]Thank you for having me.
[2:40]And it was so fun when I first met you and seeing Shakespeare and Co-On Lex all with your book in the window.
[2:47]And it was amazing.
[2:48]And you were so excited.
[2:50]And then you were so nice to take my picture at Subway entrance.
[2:52]Is that a book that I had been reading?
[2:54]I think it was smile by Sarah Rule.
[2:55]So anyway, it's nice coming back together these months later and chatting.
[2:59]Absolutely.
[3:00]And it feels like a whole decade has cast since.
[3:03]You know, so many things have changed so much is going on.
[3:06]But yeah, let's talk about all things between the lines and books.
[3:10]I'm always here for that.
[3:11]I was so drawn into the stories of this book that I kept being like, okay, I have to go to bed.
[3:16]But I just want to read like one or two more.
[3:18]Let me just see what this guy said.
[3:19]Let me see what this girl said.
[3:20]I love the way.
[3:22]So basically the premise is that you interview people reading books of any type on the subways and then you post them.
[3:29]And you have this whole thing, right?
[3:31]Did I say that?
[3:32]The whole thing.
[3:33]You're absolutely right.
[3:34]That's the whole thing.
[3:35]So it's a whole thing with this very successful Instagram account and all the rest.
[3:40]But first of all, I was totally energized that people actually were reading hard cover books or soft cover actual physical books enough to for you to talk to them.
[3:48]Because I feel like this whole book made me think that like Wi-Fi is the is the anti book.
[3:55]Right.
[3:56]Whenever there is Wi-Fi, the books disappear.
[3:59]Absolutely true.
[4:00]I mean, I think there's so much to be said and I'm trying to collect a concise thought.
[4:05]I'm just about to have my morning coffee so bear with me.
[4:08]But I think that Wi-Fi is the antidote to mindfulness period or like the anti like the antagonist or whatever you want to call it.
[4:19]Because what is a book a book is really a moment for us to dive into our inner self and to explore who we are through the lives of others.
[4:27]And I think that, you know, Wi-Fi is interrupting that experience in so many ways in our lives, but absolutely when it comes to reading.
[4:36]I think that a lot of the people I have interviewed and you know by now it's been well over a thousand people for the last eight years.
[4:43]They all say the same thing and they say that when there's no Wi-Fi present is when they actually have time to read.
[4:49]When we purposefully create a space of less distractions, that's when we can really dive in.
[4:56]And I've noticed that on the various train lines, the trains that do have Wi-Fi have way less readers on them.
[5:02]And I have to be honest with you since the pandemic that of course reading on the subway has changed tremendously.
[5:07]So that's a whole other topic.
[5:09]But in the eight years that I was writing this up way, you know, every day front to back, every train line that you can imagine in New York City.
[5:16]And it really was this almost like dare I say sacred chaotic space in which while there's so much going on in the subway also there was no Wi-Fi.
[5:25]Of course people had time to read. Oh my gosh.
[5:28]I mean, I hadn't really even given it much thought, you know, even on airplanes.
[5:33]It's like, everyone used to read on airplanes.
[5:36]And now I'm like the only one reading on an airplane.
[5:39]You know, it's Wi-Fi.
[5:40]Yeah.
[5:41]It's Wi-Fi. Sorry. What were you going to say?
[5:43]No, no, no.
[5:44]Anyway, I don't know why I'm like maybe there could be some sort of campaign like the reading plane.
[5:49]You know, like a reading plane that doesn't have Wi-Fi.
[5:52]So I would be so booked out and the tickets would be so expensive.
[5:55]But it would be so worth it.
[5:56]No, we could say like book it, you know, book, you know, maybe that maybe that's what the airline should be called.
[6:02]I'll call it book it and there will be no Wi-Fi and you will have to read.
[6:06]And every month you can be part of the book it book club.
[6:09]Oh my God.
[6:11]Right. It's like a whole thing.
[6:13]Another whole thing.
[6:14]We're just, we're just, you know, the ideas are flowing this morning.
[6:17]And that's what I love.
[6:18]That's why I love speaking with you.
[6:19]You're amazing.
[6:20]You're like, let's take this to the next level.
[6:22]Let's, let's make an air, not just a book club.
[6:25]Let's have a whole airline where reading is like, you know, what brings us together and screw travel.
[6:31]Like, no, we're not here to get to a destination.
[6:34]We heard a dive into this like fictional world or non-fiction world.
[6:38]We love a non-fiction world.
[6:40]Especially as we're talking about between the lines.
[6:42]But I think that's just really so true.
[6:44]It's like, you know, our lives.
[6:47]There's so much on our minds.
[6:49]Our lives are so demanding.
[6:51]And I think we have completely lost track with how many hours we actually have in a day because we're now also used to multitasking.
[6:59]And we're not used to not multitasking.
[7:02]And a book is truly the only thing you cannot multitask.
[7:06]Like, it's name anything else that you, that you cannot multitask that you book.
[7:11]Like, you can, you can even read something on your, on your Kindle or on your phone and a notification might pop up.
[7:17]Actually, I don't own a Kindle full disclosure.
[7:19]I don't know if they have.
[7:20]I don't know.
[7:21]I don't know.
[7:22]But if you're reading, if you're reading on a device, like a notification can pop up and can take you right out of it.
[7:29]The place where you're really spending time with the story is the place where you can turn a page in my humble opinion.
[7:35]Totally.
[7:36]I totally agree.
[7:37]Well, okay.
[7:38]So I loved how you organize the people that you spoke to.
[7:41]So you have like food and then you, you linked them in such a clever way.
[7:46]And you know, like somebody would read about kitchen confidential and then you would have somebody who was a chef.
[7:51]And I mean, it was just very cool how you linked it all.
[7:53]And there were so many people in here, by the way, who have been on this podcast.
[7:56]Like, glenismic nickel and Lori Willover and Debbie Milman.
[8:01]So many.
[8:02]So many.
[8:03]So many.
[8:04]So it was really neat to hear their reflections.
[8:06]And it's not about books.
[8:07]It's about what they're reading, which is what's so fascinating.
[8:10]It's almost like, it's just very unique what you did.
[8:13]And I love it.
[8:14]It's a lot.
[8:15]Thank you so much.
[8:16]I actually, I can share a little easter egg with you that not many people know.
[8:20]But since you're asking me, since you're talking about how the stories have been edited and arranged, that took so much time.
[8:26]I can't even begin to tell you how much time that took because I loosely took the major arcana in a, that you would find in a tarot reading, which is the hero's journey.
[8:37]You started the fool and you ended the world.
[8:40]And throughout the character goes through these trials and tribulations.
[8:45]And so that's how I have arranged the chapters.
[8:50]And then within the chapter, I wanted to really find these moments that New York is so known for, which is that it's such a big city and a metropolis.
[8:59]But it's also such a tiny village.
[9:01]And we are linked with each other in beautiful ways and in unpredictable ways where, yes, you can see Anthony while you could see Anthony Bourdain smoking a cigarette on the street.
[9:12]And then, you know, later on meet his long time assistant who has edited his books with him and have a beautiful conversation, you know, even years later about who he was and what he meant and what characters like him and people like him mean to New York.
[9:28]So that is something that truthfully exists. And again, I think when we're not looking at our phones, sorry to be that person to harp that point.
[9:36]But when we look up and when we look at the people that surround us in the stories that surround us, there's so much richness in life.
[9:44]And I think, you know, I hope that my book reminds of that that we're surrounded by, by beautiful stories.
[9:50]And that all we have to do is maybe ask a question that can be as simple as hey, what are you reading.
[9:55]It's amazing. It's amazing. There was one who was the.
[10:00]Like Nigerian queen who I mean it's just like all these things are so cool
[10:04]I love to this Mark Marcus Williams who he said I'm from Harlem
[10:10]I'm 32 years old and I got my start as a stock boy at a wine shop on the Upper West side
[10:14]I've worked at wine shops all over the city always filling in shifts everywhere
[10:18]I moved up to shipper then I became a salesperson manager and then a buyer now
[10:23]I run my own wine club called highly recommended and I have my own wine coming out
[10:27]I mean how cool is that?
[10:29]Such a New York story isn't it? I mean it's classic. It's like he, Marques is amazing
[10:35]and he actually has become a friend and we've spent time with each other outside of asking each
[10:42]other on the subway about books and the things that we're into and his wine club is actually really phenomenal
[10:48]If you're this is a this is a gentle plug but I really just you know and I have I'm a recently alcohol free person
[10:55]so this is hilarious but his wine club is absolutely phenomenal he delivers it to your door
[11:00]and I'm actually going to partner with him this fall and I'm going to curate an alcohol free wine section
[11:07]in his wine club oh my gosh you know like I mean it's just it's meeting people in New York is so
[11:14]much fun and sometimes you need a little bit of an excuse and sometimes you can be very direct
[11:19]but you know there's a bit of a feeling for a long time New Yorkers that we've that we've lost
[11:24]so much that the city had to offer and that the city is changing so much but I also want to say
[11:30]we're still here we're still around phenomenal people are walking these streets which is
[11:35]have to look and go ask we're here we're absolutely here we've got nowhere it's so great what
[11:42]you did because it's it is you it's like you've made the city much smaller and more intimate
[11:48]because no one no one is looking for connection on the subway right that's like people avoid
[11:55]each other's eyes as much as they can like even in your scene where you were like I caught this
[12:00]woman's eye across the train and then I walked over to her and I'm thinking oh no like what's going to
[12:05]happen I hope she's okay the worst yeah the worst yeah luckily she was great because you know
[12:11]there's something trustworthy about readers and I don't know she was she was open to it it started
[12:16]your whole thing but yeah if we just know a little bit if you just know one page from someone's
[12:20]story it changes your whole perception of them beautifully said absolutely and I think that you
[12:27]know full disclosure my book came out last year in November and I had it was a really big reckoning
[12:35]like it really was like the strike and take I'm a I'm a person who has not given birth biologically
[12:40]speaking but this book because there are so many stories and so many lives captured in it it
[12:48]really felt like this gigantic birthing moment yeah I was freaking exhausted I think I had postpartum
[12:54]depression to be quite frank I really was so down in the dumps after because it was such a gigantic
[13:03]monumental thing I mean this is a collection of eight years of work I've mentioned that this is
[13:08]something that I've been doing for such a long time and I'm doing something that I hope a lot
[13:13]of that I wish a lot of moms would get to do since you know we're talking about a very specific
[13:18]audience here and I know that you might be like well you're absolutely crazy this is not possible
[13:23]but when I did after I had this gigantic birthing moment I and I think this translates to projects
[13:28]this translates to our career this doesn't translate to a physical child because you can't do
[13:32]this with a with a person but when we have these big moments I think it's also okay to step
[13:38]away for a moment after and to say okay let me see who you want to be let me see who you want to
[13:43]become and that is what I've done I currently subway book reviews on hiatus and I say that very
[13:50]honestly and I also have to tell you honestly that right now I'm talking to you from Los Angeles
[13:55]I'm here for a project and I'm not in New York and it is so healthy to give the things you love
[14:03]space and I feel like I really really had to do that and then the most beautiful little moment
[14:10]happened where I had stepped away from the subway for a moment I had stepped away from New York
[14:14]City for a moment not because I don't love them but just to give it space and to let myself
[14:19]breathe and to let myself come back to me and what I want to create next as an artist and as a
[14:25]person in this world who has ambition and who has dreams and who has unfulfilled hopes I stepped
[14:33]away and I and I looked at it and I'm giving it a time to be itself and then this beautiful thing
[14:40]happened where I got a phone call from a man named Carl this is so New York no sorry I got a text
[14:45]that's it from a man named Carl and Carl just said are you coming to dinner on Tuesday we really
[14:50]need to know and I said I don't have dinner plans with a man named Carl I'm very sorry you have
[14:54]the wrong number and Carl said no no no no you know we've been emailing you since May I got
[14:58]this text message in June and we really hope that you can make it and I said Carl I truthfully
[15:04]have no I'm in Los Angeles right now I'm not in New York I really don't know you this is an unknown
[15:09]number please forgive and wanted to end the conversation and Carl said well you really then we're
[15:14]gonna mail you the award and I said Carl what award are you talking about and we've so I finally
[15:22]called him and I said you need to explain this to be a little bit more and he said well the
[15:26]New York press club has just awarded you the heart of New York award oh and I cried on the spot
[15:35]right now because it was such an amazing affirmation that stepping away is okay and that giving
[15:44]something space is okay are they coming back to yourself is okay it was such a fantastic beautiful
[15:52]moment oh and that makes me so happy you earned that and it's so true you captured the heart of
[15:58]New York it's like nobody else did what you did it's amazing journey it is it's it's emotional
[16:04]journalism it's really you know location specific emotional journalism I love emotional journalism
[16:11]I love this you know what I'm a triple water sign I'm gonna write this down emotional journalism
[16:17]that is absolutely end and I think that you know there's such a there's such a assumption that
[16:23]when you self assign a beat or when you decide when you want to report on and it's not coming from
[16:31]you know your boss's desk that that makes it less of an adventure and less of a journey or less
[16:37]of something that takes every moment of your life into a new direction or also that maybe because
[16:43]it wasn't a sign by someone else that it's less valuable or less worthwhile and I also want to
[16:49]say to everyone who's listening that it's not true the the journeys and the adventures and the
[16:55]stories that you self assign are the absolute most valuable ones they're going to take you the
[17:00]furthest and the farthest and the deepest into who you are and who you are in the world so
[17:07]that's something I very much took away from creating this book is that not only did I see
[17:12]everyone else differently but I also see myself differently a hundred percent and what is your
[17:18]I'm sorry we're having a little birthday party behind me here and it's just we're just going to
[17:23]roll with it because yeah what are you doing in LA you're being very cagey about it and I'll put
[17:30]myself on that so you don't have to hear this wait I love that you just called me and you said
[17:35]I'm being cagey about it I love it I you know what I am I guess I am being cagey about it
[17:41]in a way that I've also learned that I don't have to share everything on social media immediately
[17:46]the moment that it happens I am current but I'll tell you of course I'm working right now with a
[17:51]company called Style Like You it's a really fantastic mother-daughter duo and they make documentary
[17:57]films and series that are focused on gender identity sexuality and how to stand in your power
[18:05]and they're really leading this like beautiful self self acceptance revolution and so
[18:10]I'm currently working with them and we're creating some new original concepts that I'm very
[18:15]excited by that is amazing I am so excited about that too that's really cool good for you
[18:21]I mean I I love this whole idea that there's something more valuable or that that you're
[18:26]addressing this preconceived notion that it's more valuable to be assigned something because
[18:32]sometimes I feel that way too if I like write a personal essay for no reason or even these
[18:36]podcasts in your ears like nobody is assigning me to do this but it's like so fun and amazing
[18:43]and I think when you're doing something that you're truly doing out of love and interest
[18:48]people will feel that right away I mean I hope a thousand percent self-assigning is so powerful
[18:54]and it's so valuable because if we didn't do that we wouldn't have these breakthrough moments
[18:59]we'd be hearing the same stories over and over again from the same people the only way that
[19:04]we're trading revolution and storytelling which is of course you know BIPOC focused
[19:09]LBGTQIA plus focus it's focused on letting women be storytellers because traditionally you know
[19:15]that's also something for a long time in the patriarchy that has been very male centered if we
[19:20]need to get out of that kind of thinking the storytellers really we look to the indigenous practices
[19:26]and of course you know we're reading books like Braiding Sweetgrass where we're learning about
[19:31]our inherent connection to nature and our inherent connection to storytelling is the same right
[19:35]we're reading books by Bell Hooks called All About Love that are bringing us back to our inherent
[19:41]feelings and emotional landscape and I think that yes we read these books but then we digest
[19:48]it and we need to say well what do we do with that how does that show up in our work
[19:52]how does that show up in us as being of service to other people and I think especially for women
[19:58]it is so important
[20:00]to tell stories and to share stories. And there are so many that I want to hear, you know, maybe
[20:06]this is like very the contrarian non popular opinion on this kind of podcast. But I'm, you know,
[20:13]as I mentioned, I'm in LA right now and I grabbed in a really beautiful sub-led on 500 steps from
[20:19]Venice from the beach in Venice. And I grabbed a random bag that had a beach blanket in it. And of
[20:26]course that bag came with a book. And it's 16 writers, share their choice on not having children,
[20:33]16 essays. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, let's dive into that. Like, let's see what the person who
[20:41]owns the department is interested in regarding that topic. And it's the topic I'm thinking
[20:46]about myself as well. And so, you know, it's these kids' moments where I'm like, yeah,
[20:52]want to hear more stories about that. And I also want to hear more stories about motherhood and like,
[20:57]what that really is like and the value that we place on women's bodies. Anyway, you would know I
[21:02]could go on and on and on and on. And we don't have the times. But I just want to say we need your
[21:08]stories. We need all of our stories so much, so badly. We're so thirsty for them.
[21:14]Amazing. Thank you. And by the way, it is not just moms listening to this at all. I don't even know
[21:19]what percentage of moms are listening. But I know for fact, there are many non moms listening.
[21:24]Of course. Anyways, we're all here. Of course. All here. But yeah, this was so, it just made
[21:32]me feel and feel connected to like everybody. Oh, and these pages are just so hokey. But these
[21:38]casual photos and then these like just little excerpts from people's souls. And then how you
[21:45]you have glinnest, but then later you have glinnest is book. It's just, it's very smart and very
[21:49]cool between the lines stories from the underground. Everybody take note and get ready for our
[21:55]book at flight. I'm going to pursue that. Let's do we have to do it. Maybe not a whole. Just maybe
[22:02]like a limited flight. I don't know. Okay. So you taking notes right now. I'm right. I have my list of,
[22:09]I have my list of like insane ideas. And I try to keep them all on paper before they flutter
[22:15]flutter away. Flutter away. Thank you for coming on. I love to meeting you when I met you. Maybe
[22:21]I'll see you in LA. I'm going to be there a lot. So we'll connect. And I'll be back in New York.
[22:26]You know, you can take me out of that city. All right. Thank you so much so much. Bye. Bye.
[22:34]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[22:38]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign
[22:43]up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors
[22:48]on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[22:54]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.