Natasha Lunn, CONVERSATIONS ON LOVE: Lovers, Strangers, Parents, Friends, Endings, Beginnings
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[1:29]Natasha Len is the author of conversations on love lovers strangers parents friends endings
[1:35]Beginnings Natasha is an author journalist and features director at red magazine
[1:41]Her debut book is conversations on love which has grown out of the newsletter of the same name
[1:46]And to further understand her understanding of love and relationships
[1:49]Natasha studied an introductory course to psychotherapy at the Tavistock Relationships Center in 2018
[1:55]Which informed the writing of this wonderful book? Welcome Natasha. Thank you so much for coming on moms
[2:00]Don't have time to read books to discuss conversations on love lovers strangers parents friends endings beginnings
[2:07]Thank you so much for having me you had such an interesting model for this book and how it started and your whole
[2:15]newsletter and everything why don't you explain
[2:17]How this turned into a book just to give everybody a little background about it and then we'll dig in
[2:23]So yeah, I started an email newsletter
[2:26]Maybe must be like four and a half nearly five years ago now
[2:30]And it was really born out of my own embarrassment in love and my my understanding that really I had just
[2:37]Completely misunderstood what love was for a very long time and just spent like many of us do most of my life
[2:44]Trying to find somebody to love me and not really thinking about what that word meant to me
[2:50]And I'm kind of doing lots of interviews as a journalist and you know you have to speak to people about their career
[2:56]Their history their bio all the stuff and you get like maybe a little paragraph about love
[3:01]But I would always find like I want to just spend a whole hour into you talking about love because
[3:06]The more I asked about it the more the answers gave me more questions and I just realized actually this is what we should be to go to more time to
[3:14]So I started doing that really thinking that it would never take the shape of a book
[3:20]You know, I just never thought that that would happen and then as I was doing the interviews
[3:25]It just became really clear to me the people who were writing into me
[3:29]were really
[3:30]Coming with three questions, which was either
[3:34]How do I find love like whether that was somebody looking for love for the first time or looking for love after divorce or
[3:41]Even not wanting a relationship and looking for where they could find love in other areas of their life
[3:45]How to sustain love like people who were just like fraught with kids and parents and relationships?
[3:51]Just trying to figure out how to sustain those relationships through
[3:54]life's many storms and then thirdly, how do we
[3:58]survive and find meaning after love after losing love and people losing love in all these different ways so I just
[4:06]It was like a weird process. It came it almost like came to life
[4:10]Through the questions that people were asking me and I started to think hang on
[4:16]This this isn't how love moves through the course of a life because
[4:21]We're all going to be asking those questions at different points and I find myself now moving between the sections of the book
[4:27]Like sadly there will be years when I lose love and then
[4:31]You know years when friendships are changing and I need to find it again in different places and I just realized that those are three questions
[4:37]We're hopefully all going to be asking throughout our life and I hadn't found a book yet that gave them
[4:44]The attention. I thought that they deserved
[4:47]Interesting. Well, it has certainly become a very interesting book and I couldn't believe how many
[4:52]Guess on my podcast you had as interviews in the book. There's so much overlap in here
[4:58]I tried to dog year all the ones that
[5:01]We had overlap, but of course now I can't even find them. But anyway, so many so many overlaps in fact
[5:08]I interviewed Candace Cardi Williams yesterday
[5:10]And I forgot to ask her about
[5:12]What you wrote in your book about losing her friends and now I feel terrible about that but anyway, there anyway
[5:17]I just a lot of a lot of overlap at least it's a day. Oh, Heather. Have a rescue
[5:21]Landibotong, Mira Jacob
[5:24]so many more so anyway, great authors
[5:27]You include your own life story in here from taking you from
[5:31]single days and wanting to combat the loneliness and
[5:36]the endless questions when before you're in a relationship of how to meet and wear and what's going to happen and all that stuff all the way through to
[5:44]Becoming a mother and the tenuous
[5:48]You know deeply emotional journey and the twists and turns involved in that and I don't know how much you want to share here or
[5:55]Would like to divulge in the book, but I would love to hear about even the later stage of
[6:01]Becoming a mom and what you had to go through for that if you don't mind
[6:05]Yeah, of course, and just thinking about that the reason that I wanted to
[6:09]Go back and
[6:11]Share bits of my own life in in all of those. I guess vulnerable moments
[6:16]It's because I had read a lot of books by experts and some of the people I interviewed are amazing experts who
[6:21]A writing from a real position of knowledge and authority, but I wanted to come to this and sort of say
[6:27]You know, I'm making these mistakes every day. I don't I don't know anything
[6:31]I'm really like learning
[6:32]Hopefully with the reader as you go and probably making worse mistakes than everybody else because
[6:38]I realized that however many lessons you can learn about love and in the beginning as you say I was writing about
[6:43]Just feeling like I would never meet a romantic partner and seeing that as the only thing that can make me happy
[6:50]And then of course when I was in a romantic relationship
[6:53]Feeling a similar way about trying to conceive like suddenly this became the thing that I had to
[6:59]Had to achieve to be happy sort of completely overlooking this wonderful romantic relationship that I had been
[7:05]Spend the last decade before so I really wanted to show how easily
[7:11]You know for anybody else who's longing for romantic love how easily
[7:15]If we let that be the model that we can kind of slip into it again
[7:18]And again no matter what form of love we have we can overlook it. But yeah, so
[7:22]the book ends with me becoming
[7:25]a mother and you know now again
[7:28]I sort of wrote a little bit about the early stages of motherhood in that because I didn't want it to be this
[7:34]Happy ending because of course with every love story
[7:37]It's just another beginning which is full of deep joy and also more deep challenges
[7:43]And I have just found it to be so interesting thinking about how to sustain
[7:49]Romantic love and friendship and all the other forms of love that I was able to devote a lot of time to
[7:56]In the space of motherhood and that's where I'm at now
[7:59]really having to
[8:01]Fight almost to retain space for the other forms of love that I spent that whole book learning as so important
[8:08]And I thought before children you probably are a lot more of an expert on this
[8:12]I am not at all. I was hoping for your advice, you know
[8:15]What have you what have you figured out that it has worked?
[8:18]You know to sustain romantic love in the face of constant stress and interruption and all the rest
[8:23]Well what I would say and it's so hard to talk about this because I feel that I'm always saying
[8:29]And I'm always kind of talking down maternal love and that's not the case of tool
[8:34]But I think because we put it on this
[8:37]Huge pedestal and we do say you know people say like oh, I haven't felt love like this until I become a parent
[8:43]And and we kind of I guess like some people fetishize it in that way in an interesting way
[8:48]It's made me so grateful
[8:51]for the freedom of romantic love in the
[8:55]I'm always amazed by a parental like parental love feels so intense and so loaded with like guilt and it's almost
[9:01]Sometimes feel like it's not a choice. It's just this it's so overwhelming
[9:06]And intense with romantic love. I feel it's much more of a choice and something that we
[9:13]Have freedom within and and we kind of keep choosing was I feel almost with motherhood
[9:18]I don't have room for a choice because it's just it's like in me somehow and it's I don't know if you feel the same
[9:24]Yeah, I totally know what you mean
[9:26]And there's a level of you know, I don't have fear for my obviously I
[9:31]Whenever you're in a romantic relationship and you build a life with someone it's terrifying when you think about
[9:36]Losing them but what I love about romantic love is we we're each responsible for each other
[9:42]And that's a very different dynamic in love than in parental love where you are responsible for them and
[9:48]And the kind of crushing responsibility that comes with that so whilst it has given me challenges in romantic love
[9:55]It also just made me appreciate
[9:58]The ease of that relationship
[10:00]been in some ways and the lack of responsibility and fear you have for that person and how you're
[10:07]supported by them in a way that's as as two individuals has been really appreciate that.
[10:14]You know it's funny my my kids went to this place called iFly where they do this
[10:18]there's like this huge gush of wind and they have to wear all this like skydiving gear even
[10:22]then they're in one place and kind of pushes them up and the the trainer has to hold onto their
[10:27]arms and you have to hold on anyway they they are basically interlocked as they go up and up and
[10:32]up in this like very pretty circle but i feel like that's exactly what you're saying about romantic
[10:36]love right you two are like in you know you're going through this big blast but you have to hold
[10:42]onto each other to keep this dance sort of going and up in the air and all of that. Exactly that
[10:48]you know the writer i'm into describe it to me it's like being in this current and and the love is like
[10:54]what holds you steady to each other whilst all the shit in the current everything is
[10:59]like last year but what i would say is from doing this project i i'm no expert of managing
[11:06]to sustain all these forms of love but i know how important they are i know that i don't just want
[11:12]to lose myself and in motherhood and i i feel not a desire but almost that could be inevitable
[11:21]if you didn't push back against it in some way you could just lose yourself in the intensity of it
[11:27]so i'm so glad that i've done this project because i know how important it is to sustain those
[11:32]other forms of love and so i feel like all the time i'm trying to sort of ring fence parts of
[11:38]myself and i'm sure like the work you do maybe for you is the same but for me conversations on
[11:43]love is actually a way of doing that it's like a little a little piece of me that's protected from
[11:49]motherhood sounds yeah yep and a stick out that identity
[11:56]i'm also having something to come back to your friendships and relationships to talk about and
[12:01]having you know actually my husband bought me a piano for my birthday and even just like having
[12:09]that kind of sense of newness in a way like using your brain in a different different way
[12:14]i think it's like that's almost like for me the sustaining of the self-love through trying
[12:20]something or through giving yourself space to do something that's not worrying about your kids
[12:24]temperature yeah the moment is going red but you're not out of our control basically at all times
[12:33]right you know all those things but you know what i think in romantic love is just to try and
[12:39]for me it's like to keep sharing the sort of uncomfortable truths like all the time even if i
[12:45]like resent my partner for something i know is not even really useful or anyone's fault i just
[12:50]have to say it yeah and and then suddenly it's on the table and we talk about it and it's nothing
[12:55]but i think those little resentments if you don't if you just keep them quiet have like
[13:01]ways it's like a weed in the garden that just sort of grows into everything and then it's too
[13:04]difficult to to pull out it's very true although if you do that too much it's not good either
[13:11]yes maybe you have a whole year i just wanted to read this one passage that you wrote
[13:18]you said and from people listening if you hear background noise my two sons happened to be in the
[13:22]room while i'm recording this so you know do with that what you will but it's summer okay let me
[13:27]read this one passage have you ever felt the unbearable weight of not knowing have you ever thought
[13:31]if only i could get a guarantee that i would one day get what i long for then i would be able
[13:36]to relax or even if i knew that i would never get it then at least i could design a different
[13:41]sort of life instead of wasting energy on waiting for what could be just around the corner
[13:46]it's a long for a relationship a pregnancy a job in a certain industry unless you believe in
[13:51]psychics all of us will face some measure of this uncertainty it's part and parcel of existence
[13:56]maybe there is comfort in knowing that whatever we have or don't have compared to each other
[14:00]we share this same vulnerability to randomness every day we wake up with no clue of when we might
[14:06]die or what might happen when we do how easily we forget this big question woven through everything
[14:11]have small by comparison the other questions are not any less important but perhaps more manageable
[14:16]in the context of it tell me more about this passage gosh isn't this like the eternal challenge for us
[14:22]all i'm thinking i was sort of when i was writing thinking specifically about really when i was
[14:29]trying to get pregnant after a miscarriage thinking okay this is never going to happen
[14:33]i would rather know so i can say right let's not waste our years let's go traveling let's
[14:38]make a different plan or if it was going to happen in five years i would be okay with that you know
[14:44]i'd be like okay well we'll just shelf everything but it's that wrestling with i think being in
[14:50]a state of wanting something is such a vulnerable place to be i didn't have it do you know you
[14:55]what a succession probably like yes yes yeah there's a line when shiv says i'm what she's talking
[15:01]about there just before that awkward dinner party where her dad kind of humiliate she says
[15:06]the time she's like i really want this she says it in like a slightly softer more really
[15:12]different voice than we took any we've heard her use before and in that moment she seems so
[15:17]vulnerable because she's being honest about how much she wants something and i think that that being
[15:23]honest you know even with yourself about really craving something it just puts you you're
[15:30]so exposed you've got such a loss of control that can be so difficult to live with every day
[15:35]that i just fact i just find it unbearable so many of us do but that is also never going to
[15:44]change for any of us and i think understanding that just reminding yourself of that all the time
[15:50]is probably the biggest part of finding or living a meaningful life because you know i and i'm
[15:57]terrible at this even now i was saying to my husband last night i think we should both get health
[16:01]their motifs they would should use our savings and just get scanned for cancer get scanned for
[16:05]ever you know just so we know and of course you can never you can never know or protect yourself
[16:11]from all those things and i think in love more than anything else like living with that sense of
[16:18]of mystery and seeing that yes for some people you know when you are in something like trying to
[16:26]get pregnant it's so difficult but there are also many instances of that uncertainty in life which
[16:31]will lead to beautiful things and and by the end of the book like i always because my parents met
[16:38]a teenager my teenagers as as the craziest it sounds now you know that was what i wanted at
[16:44]the time i was at i'll meet a teenage sort of sweetheart school and we'll be together forever
[16:49]and we'll have this depth of time and this long relationship and it'll be this beautiful love story
[16:54]and you know i'll get pregnant when i'm in my late 20s and just everything will follow this
[17:00]sort of ridiculous perfect pristine model and of course you know i'm i'm only now late 30s and
[17:06]none of those things that another thing happened and i just think all the time thank god they didn't
[17:12]and how this sort of messy higgledy-piggledy life with a few bruises along the way is so much
[17:19]more beautiful than any perfect love story that i have written if i didn't have all those moments
[17:24]of uncertainty so that's what came out of so many of my conversations with people living through
[17:32]those moments was there is a sort of beauty to uncertainty and i think like the line that people
[17:41]kind of share on instagram at the at the end of it is i'd always thought about as a negative thing
[17:46]but i wrote in that like not knowing what will happen next also means anything could
[17:53]and so i think a big part of the journey for me was saying yes it is impossible to live with that
[17:57]in many situations but it doesn't have to always be negative like there is a positive to uncertainty
[18:03]too that's true how about reframing paid and also looking at the evidence of your life looking back
[18:11]thinking of those moments you you've really wrestled with that uncertainty and
[18:16]like there's a there's a great moment when Sarah hapola who i don't know if you might have
[18:20]interviewed as well marathon writer and she said she realizes she looks back at relationships that
[18:26]ended now and she was so devastated at the time so arrogant that she thought she knew what was
[18:32]best for her in those moments and looking back she didn't but of course when you're in those moments
[18:39]you can't see that and you don't always know what's best for you i mean i also feel like the
[18:44]supplies to writing itself i mean when you were talking about how much you've wanted you know
[18:49]to run the company or whatever you know i i feel like in the past we had started by talking
[18:55]about how i haven't but coming out too like i was afraid to tell people like this is why this is
[18:59]like i really really want this and i kept getting rejected and like it's embarrassing to kind of
[19:06]of put yourself out there and yet so important because once you do then you can a find other people
[19:12]who feel the same way and b realize that like you know it's okay to have goals and to want things
[19:18]and whether it's personal professional or whatever because it's really the crux of the message here
[19:24]and then your story is like you know we don't know we we can have goals we can pursue goals but
[19:29]ultimately it's all out of our hands it's almost like the quote you know we we make plans and god
[19:34]laughs right like it's all if we if we at any end if we had just known which i so relate to
[19:41]like if i had just known like my all my kids in the order in which they came in the years in
[19:46]which they came and how out of control i even though i thought i was in control i i ultimately
[19:51]wasn't like this is what happened you know and i think it might be something more that you
[19:57]understand even in like your 30s and 40s
[20:00]and probably way after that. But prior to that, I think it's really hard to believe in it
[20:04]because you don't know if it's going to work out or not.
[20:07]Maybe you're much better than I am than because I feel in many ways justice. I wrestle with
[20:13]this just as much now, I think, as I ever have. And that's kind of one of the biggest lessons I
[20:18]learn in the book is that I sort of approach to all thinking, right, I'm going to learn this
[20:23]magical set of lessons. So I'll be a great partner and a great daughter and a great friend and a
[20:28]a great mother. And now I just realize we're all going to keep making these mistakes all the
[20:34]time. The trick is sort of having these reminders that I hope these conversations will be for
[20:40]other people so that you, I guess, pull yourself back from making them more quickly. So even now,
[20:47]I will still like sit there thinking, oh, I don't know that my daughter's going to be safe in this
[20:52]experience. And I will still like escalate and be full of fear and all those things. But I just
[20:58]sort of now I think can like walk myself down from it a little bit more than running off the cliff.
[21:06]I think it's just about how you handle anxiety, right? It's essentially that, right? It's
[21:11]anxiety based on fully understanding that life is unpredictable. You know, I don't mean anxiety is
[21:18]an anxiety disorder. I mean, the well-founded anxiety where life is uncertain and we can't worry about
[21:25]that because as much as we reassure ourselves, anything really can happen. We can say the likelihood
[21:31]is low, right? But there is that possibility. Like we were just talking in the car this morning.
[21:37]It's the end of the school year here. And you know, if my two older kids are big and you're going
[21:43]on to high school and my little guys, I have so many years left. And I was just thinking, oh my gosh,
[21:47]I'm going to be doing this car, car ride somebody for so many years. But then I said to everybody,
[21:52]I was like, you know what? And if I do like, how lucky did I get to live? I would get to live for
[21:56]those 10 years. And they were like, what? That's so depressing. But I'm like, yeah, but you don't
[22:00]know. It's not guaranteed. And I do think there is a way that being aware of that helps you
[22:08]to love better. Yes. Because I guess that's what's speaking to so many different people with so
[22:14]many different experiences of love and love has given me this sense. Like Anne Patrick put it
[22:20]well, where she said, like, we're all walking on this on this glass. Yes. Bridge. And like,
[22:26]every now and again, you look down and you realize and you have these little moments in like,
[22:31]maybe like, you find a lump and you're waiting for the result. And then it's fine. But in that
[22:36]waiting room, you're suddenly aware of how close loss could be. And I write in the end about a
[22:43]moment when when our daughter, they thought she wasn't breathing and we were being resuscitated.
[22:47]Yeah. And she was saying we thought that was an ambulance. Oh my gosh. So terrifying. But honestly,
[22:52]like, and then you just go back home and the next day, everything's fine. But those moments where
[22:57]you almost skate so close to loss, I do think they change you in that just, I think that I have
[23:05]got better. Other many things I'm bad at, I have got better. Like when I'm feeling irritated with
[23:10]my husband or when I'm just like, my daughter's driving me crazy, I have this sense of living in this
[23:18]golden moment where I have these people. And yeah, I can be pissed off because I'm human. And of
[23:24]course, but I'm not going to be pissed off for too long because I don't want to waste the time I have.
[23:29]Yes. That's so right. That scene that you wrote was, I was like holding my breath. And I think you
[23:36]said, you said something in the book and I don't have the line in front of me. I mean, I have the
[23:39]book, but now, of course, I don't know where the line is, but you said something to the effect of
[23:42]like, but this is how it happens. Like in these moments, from one moment to the next, these
[23:47]these ambulance ride, these calls, these like, it that is how life changes. And other people's lives
[23:54]did not, they didn't get better news and find out that she is breathing. Like this is just how it
[24:00]happens in the moment from one to the next. Anyway, I think that all the time that deep when I walk
[24:06]street and I see an ambulance, and it gives me this sort of chill where I think, well, I'm just
[24:12]meeting a friend for a drink. And then what's happening there? Yeah. And the kind of situation that
[24:18]I wrote about in the next day I was on Instagram and I saw a father who posted about hit lost his
[24:23]child. And she just had, he had the same sleepy suit from John Lewis, which is a store here,
[24:29]as our daughter had. And I just, I do think that we have to get better at
[24:34]the, you know, people say, I can't imagine that. But I think we have to
[24:38]get better at imagining that. So we can, you know, we can not be so separate from the people who
[24:44]are experiencing it. And they won't feel as lonely because we sort of don't want to go there
[24:49]mentally almost. Yes, I totally agree. I mean, anyone who's waited for a mammogram or a biopsy or,
[24:57]you know, that waiting, anyone who's gone through the waiting of anything knows there is another
[25:02]outcome. Right. And I feel like, and that's, again, what I'm saying when you get older,
[25:06]I don't know. I feel like there's so many more opportunities for this. But, and when I said
[25:10]earlier, like, I don't feel like I am any better off than you. I feel like we're in very much the same
[25:14]emotional spot. I just think, I just think now I have the perspective that, you know, I'm still going
[25:19]to try my hardest for whatever it is I'm working towards or longing for or whatever. But if it doesn't
[25:25]happen, I do have this sense like, well, then maybe it wasn't supposed to be right now. But doesn't
[25:31]really not going to happen ever. Maybe there's something bigger than me at work. And maybe
[25:35]there's not. But maybe there is. And I just have to wait and see. So do you know what? This is
[25:41]the trickiest thing I found writing about love is it's so full of contradictions because as you're
[25:46]saying that, that's such a big piece of it. But then there's also this big piece of it where
[25:53]I feel like I was sort of embarrassed to try it love for a long time because I did expect it to
[25:59]just happen to me. And I was like, what will be will be? And I'll bump into somebody in a sort of
[26:04]dusty bookshop in the sunlight on a Sunday. And then where I'll sit next down to the monitor
[26:10]in a train and we'll fall in love. And all these things will just sort of happen. And I have found
[26:16]me that that is not the case and actually all the all the hard one love in my life. Like none of
[26:22]it has come easy. And all those things I had to really take a moment and say, I'm going to really
[26:27]try it this. And I'm going to be vulnerable enough to try it. So yeah, it's this really tricky
[26:33]balance between accepting randomness, as you say, but also knowing where to pour your effort into
[26:43]and actually that like love like anything else. If you don't try it every day, then so easily.
[26:51]I mean, there's, you were saying you're into the mirror, Jacob. I love what she said to me about
[26:56]friends who divorced. And they'd say, oh, we had a rough, you know, really bad year. And she'd say,
[27:02]we've been together for 20 years. Shouldn't it be like you have to have 10 bad years to undo
[27:07]the marriage. But that's not how it works. It can, it can slip so easily. And so yeah, I would say
[27:14]that's that's where I've got to now is like constantly assessing like when to sort of peacefully
[27:19]submit to the mystery. And when to think hang on, no backup. I need to do something here. I
[27:25]need to put more effort in. I need to have a conversation. I need to change something.
[27:31]Love it. Okay. Well, we could clearly talk all day about this.
[27:36]These are just ask you one question. Of course. When I ask you because I know, you know, you have
[27:42]got four children, you have got such an incredible career. And you're what do you think you've
[27:48]learned about sustaining romantic love amidst all that? Have you, I'm interested to hear your take on it.
[27:55]I'm divorced and I'm remarried. So take with that how you will. I've been married now for five
[28:02]years to my second husband. And I guess I will say it's a challenge. But I think you have to really,
[28:11]you know, I mean, this is going to sound hokey. You know, almost like it's in one of those action
[28:17]movies where there's this gem sort of in a protective clear case sort of glimmering, you know, and
[28:23]everybody's like trying to get there. And it's like at the center of everything. Like I think
[28:26]you have to view it like that. Like this very precious, very delicate thing in the middle. And
[28:32]that middle is what's holding the rest together. So I mean, on a tactical level, time spent
[28:39]attention, you know, so a girlfriend of mine once told me, even if you spend, I think two minutes
[28:45]a day of like intense eye contact, it can sustain you for a long time. Like if you just really listen
[28:52]and have a moment of connection for two minutes in the morning and then maybe another one
[28:56]in the middle of the day and then another one at night, like you only need like five minutes a day
[29:00]to make sure that but you have to connect daily and look in their eyes and make sure. But I don't
[29:07]know. I'm just I'm not always the best. I get very busy and distracted and probably don't do the
[29:12]best job myself. But I like that. I think kissing as well. It's kind of a similar thing. I think it's
[29:18]really easy to stop kissing. And when I'm more conscious of that, I think that makes big difference.
[29:23]Anyway, yeah, we could talk about this. Yeah. Okay. Well, to be continued hopefully at some point
[29:28]these philosophical issues of love and life and how things unfold and all of that. But at the end of
[29:35]it, being someone who thinks about it a lot and is very sensitive, I also think helps even though
[29:42]it can be frustrating, having the awareness and not and seeing it as a full picture the way
[29:48]you do in your book, I think is is very helpful and are also all the perspectives. So anyway,
[29:54]this was very little about the book, which I did read all of and really enjoyed and found very
[29:59]that for books.
[30:00]And anyway, people listening, conversations on love, Natasha Len, you can hear more of these conversations and hopefully we'll continue ours one day.
[30:10]Thank you so much.
[30:11]Thank you.
[30:12]Take care.
[30:13]Thank you.
[30:14]All right.
[30:15]Are you about my kids?
[30:16]No.
[30:17]Thank you.
[30:18]Bye.
[30:19]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:23]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:28]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:32]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:35]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[30:39]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.