Caitlin Barasch, A NOVEL OBSESSION: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:52]This is the scene that she's talking about ready.
[1:58]I'm doing this book of disservice by the way.
[2:02]I love fiction set in the world of fiction.
[2:10]It's hard to pull off successfully. It's so self-referential.
[2:16]You're like, oh, but she is writing a book, but this is the scene that she's talking about ready.
[2:20]Anyway, I'm doing this book of disservice by the way. I just described that. Let's try this again.
[2:24]Caitlin, why don't you tell listeners what your book is about?
[2:27]Well, you're on the right track, obviously.
[2:30]Talk about that. I'm sure we're going to talk about that because it's a big part of the book.
[2:33]But essentially, the premise of a novel obsession. It's about a young woman named Naomi, who is a bookseller in New York City.
[2:41]She's a bit aimless. She recently graduated from college, has never been in love, meets this handsome Welshman that she is hoping she will finally fall in love with and experience her first-year relationship.
[2:54]And then, unbeknownst to her, she finds out that he actually moved to the United States to follow a woman.
[3:01]Turns out that woman Rosemary is also in the literary world as Naomi is, but isn't an editor at a major publishing house.
[3:08]So immediately, Naomi is a little jealous, a little threatened and, of course, incredibly curious about this woman who came before her and feels like she can't possibly measure up to sort of this great love story, even though they had broken up and she is now dating this man, Caleb.
[3:23]So essentially, she becomes desperately obsessed with Rosemary, stalks her both online and then in real life and forges a friendship with her under false pretenses.
[3:34]And after that, essentially, all hell breaks loose. So, yeah, that's the premise and it's a wild ride or so I've been told.
[3:43]It actually scared me a lot because, first of all, I'm like, who is this Caitlin? What are you saying?
[3:51]But just how intimately you can know someone's habits, someone's whereabouts, someone's interests.
[4:00]I mean, I put all my stuff out there all the time and now I'm thinking, like, anyone could just pretend.
[4:04]I mean, I'm not advocating anybody, do not pretend to know me if you see me, you know what I mean.
[4:12]But no, but obviously her obsession goes beyond the normal consumption of social media into this very not okay place.
[4:22]Kind of related to her when like, she was asking her, what is, I'm so bad with names. What is her boyfriend's name, what you, Caleb, Caleb.
[4:30]She was asking Caleb, you know why they broke up and he was like, well, I don't know. We just, we both loved each other so much, but I can't even explain her.
[4:38]And that is so unsatisfied.
[4:41]Like, I would not be okay with that answer either. I'd be like, we, then you could easily just start it up again.
[4:50]So I relate to her. Yes. Thank you.
[4:52]No, it's, but to your point about, you know, how she goes kind of beyond the normal in every way.
[4:59]Sort of like, that was the seed for me, you know, being a millennial and just being online and everyone's online regardless of who you are at this point.
[5:07]As online as I am these days, that feeling.
[5:10]I'm probably friends with her.
[5:11]Yes.
[5:13]Yeah. So it's essentially like, so we have access to so much information of our friends of our acquaintances of complete strangers.
[5:23]And that sounds like we all are guilty of being curious about the people that we encounter in our daily lives. But at the same time, I wanted to show how that internet rabbit hole could quickly and, you know, dangerously become a real life obsession.
[5:38]And in that way, like, I was able to do on the page what I could never do in real life. I do not pull an eye on me. Anyone listening. Please do not pull an eye on me. I'm, I'm beginning to use her name as a verb.
[5:51]I'm like, oh, you can an eye on me. But essentially, I sort of wanted to have fun with that. What if scenario. Like, what if this completely spiral out of control.
[6:00]And she, she just took it to a completely new level in a way that no one would ever dare to because it is not socially acceptable and also incredibly toxic and unhealthy.
[6:09]Have you, have you read Jenny Mullins books? They're actually true. You know, they're memoirs. She's has an eye on me.
[6:16]I mean, you have to go back and read. I can't remember who was the first one or the second one that she wrote. She's so funny.
[6:23]But she becomes obsessed with her husband's ex girlfriend. Oh, yeah. And literally like stocks are talking about the end up in the end up at the nail salon across each other.
[6:33]I have to read this immediately. Jenny Mullins said MOLEN.
[6:37]And actually, like, and I became friendly with her. Now, I feel like I was like, not that I was talking about.
[6:43]We were reading each other's books. And she was like, no, it's a real person that she was like sending me the picture of the real ex girl.
[6:51]It happens. It happens. And I, you know, I consider her a very normal mainstream person. Perhaps I shouldn't know I'm getting.
[6:59]Yes, it does have actually I'm really good friends with one of my ex boyfriends ex girlfriends. She's like a really close friend of mine.
[7:06]That's in the sea. That is kind of the fantasy in the dream. Like, in a sense, Naomi went through all this trouble to like stop someone under false pretenses. And I feel like she would have had a lot more luck just going up to Rosemary at a party.
[7:17]Hey, we, we did the same guy like let's let's, you know, we should talk him a little bit here. Like, so he did you do that thing with you that he does with me.
[7:25]I think that's sort of the inherent tragedy of it that she feels like can't just be authentic and just go up and say, Hey, like, you have a lot in common clearly.
[7:35]Cause they do, which is sort of why the friendship I feel like is able to progress in the way that it does.
[7:41]Except that, except then when he says like, Oh, no, but you two are like really different. And she's like, wait, what do you mean by that? Like, I know, I get it.
[7:50]I totally get it.
[7:51]You know, you're right. I mean, it's, I think that's really admirable that you can, you could be friends with someone that your partner dated, but at the same time, like, of course you could because you have a very strong experience in common.
[8:02]Although I am not dating that person anymore. Like, I'm not friends with anyone my husband dated.
[8:09]So maybe that's it.
[8:11]Maybe you have to like both.
[8:14]Yeah.
[8:15]Yeah.
[8:16]Very like John Tucker must die, which was obsessed with in high school. So maybe.
[8:21]I have to tell you because I am obviously so not a millennial. I didn't even know the song that you referenced in the beginning of the book.
[8:29]No, I went and downloaded it and listened to it and I was like, this is terrible.
[8:34]I was like, why are they both, why are they cooking to this music? I don't even understand. So anyway.
[8:39]There's a lot of, there's a lot of weird music in this, in this book and just specific like their specific tastes and yeah, is that the gang of you some
[8:48]or something underground under water or something under.
[8:52]Okay. How you just coyote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Whatever.
[8:58]Yeah. No, it's true though. I mean, I really wanted her to like in the child latte liner that's not what they got, but whatever it is that they ordered.
[9:05]Like she could have, she could have just so easily said something normal.
[9:09]Yeah. Yeah. And she didn't, she chose in most instances. This is your fault.
[9:14]She chooses the wrong to say, I mean, that was what was so fun about writing her because it's like, what would she do in this situation?
[9:22]What would the average person do in this situation? I had to do the complete opposite. Yeah.
[9:26]So I guess at every moment you are asking myself, how can I escalate her behavior?
[9:31]I keep escalating it because I mean, I don't want to like call out any books.
[9:35]I think as a reader, like I've read several books about women who obsess over other women.
[9:39]And it always like plateaus for 200 pages, just the woman like obsessing over another woman online, which once again, we've all done so incredibly relatable.
[9:48]But it always ends with this like climactic moment that comes out of absolutely nowhere.
[9:53]So it kind of goes from zero to 100. And I was like, I want my book to do something different regardless of whether.
[10:00]or not, you know, that is the correct way of doing it.
[10:02]It was just how I wanted to do it.
[10:04]I wanted sort of every chapter to somehow escalate
[10:06]and behave until the point of no return
[10:08]and or the turn when Rosemary kind of wrestles control
[10:12]of the narrative from my own me.
[10:14]No spoilers for having the record read it.
[10:17]But in a sense, that sort of, I guess,
[10:19]the inevitable thing that could happen.
[10:22]But then you see, I mean,
[10:24]the other reason that's effective is like
[10:27]it becomes such a slippery slope.
[10:29]Like one thing leads to another, right?
[10:32]It all seems like, well,
[10:33]this isn't such a big deal.
[10:34]I already did that.
[10:35]So I don't know, it's much more believable or something.
[10:39]Yeah, I think she's able to justify nearly all
[10:42]of their actions to herself, which, you know,
[10:44]I think her justifications become increasingly erratic
[10:48]and increasingly like unbelievable to anyone around her.
[10:52]Like if she were to justify it directly
[10:54]to her best friend or even her grandmother,
[10:57]I think it would be like you need to stop.
[10:59]But herself delusion and self-sabotage instinct is so strong
[11:03]that I felt like she couldn't possibly stop her behavior
[11:07]at that point and she was too far gone.
[11:10]You know, it's so funny.
[11:11]So I have this, so I have a little podcast network
[11:13]that I've started with a few shows by other others.
[11:15]So we have this one show called characters on the couch
[11:17]and they're analyzing, diagnosing
[11:19]and recommending treatment for pop culture characters
[11:23]on like TV, like, you know,
[11:25]Don Draper or, you know, Miss Maisel or whatever.
[11:28]But like I want them to do her.
[11:31]You know what I mean?
[11:32]Yeah, I need Naomi needs like a major, you know,
[11:34]Harvard psychiatrist, yeah, locking on her.
[11:37]Or maybe it's too obvious.
[11:38]I don't know.
[11:39]What do you think her issue is?
[11:40]Well, I think she just suffers from like deep, deep
[11:44]insecurity and compartmentalization.
[11:46]And I think she also sort of describes the way
[11:48]that she's begun to feel quite numb,
[11:50]like over the course of like the traumas
[11:52]that she's experienced.
[11:53]She sort of numbed herself to all feeling.
[11:56]And I think when you numb yourself to all feeling,
[11:58]you're unable to feel self-love.
[12:00]And I think if you're unable to feel self-love,
[12:02]you can't truly empathize with other people.
[12:04]So I've heard some people say, oh, she's a narcissist.
[12:06]And I think she acts narcissistic in this book.
[12:09]But I think her insecurities are driving her
[12:13]versus like any feeling of entitlement or specialness.
[12:15]Like I think she actually feels quite the opposite
[12:18]that she isn't special.
[12:19]And that's why she's destroying the life essentially.
[12:22]But it may be, I don't know.
[12:24]I really, I resist pathologizing my character
[12:27]as a stigmatizing them.
[12:28]One, I just don't feel qualified to diagnose her.
[12:32]I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
[12:34]But I would be so curious by that premise
[12:37]because I really do feel like, of course,
[12:39]characters in real life grapple with similar issues
[12:44]that real people grapple with otherwise
[12:45]they wouldn't feel authentic.
[12:47]So that is fascinating.
[12:49]I would love to get her on a therapist couch, at the very least.
[12:51]Yeah.
[12:52]Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to propose it.
[12:54]FYI, not that I am qualified either.
[12:56]But as a former psychology major and an armchair psychiatrist
[12:59]that I am, I will say that people with narcissistic personality
[13:03]disorder typically have had some big wound
[13:06]to their self-esteem and that causes the behavior.
[13:09]So it does come from a place of deep insecurity
[13:13]that's almost so deep that they can't deal with it.
[13:16]And so they lose access to that part.
[13:18]And instead are like thinking they're always right
[13:21]or they're this or they can't see the world in a different way.
[13:24]Yeah, no, I'll just go out there.
[13:28]No, and I wonder too, I sort of imagine
[13:31]I'm not probably never going to write a sequel to this book.
[13:33]But even though some people have asked me,
[13:35]like, what the hell happens next, you know?
[13:36]How could happen to done that way?
[13:37]And definitely the ending has been controversial all admit.
[13:40]But I think with Naomi, I desperately
[13:43]hope for her that this is just like a dark face in her life.
[13:47]Like I like to imagine that after she loses everything,
[13:52]which she does that she finally realizes, OK,
[13:54]what I've been doing is not working for me.
[13:57]It is not serving me.
[13:58]It is not serving anyone in my life.
[14:00]Like I desperately hope that she's pulled out of that,
[14:03]that sort of naivete, immaturity, self-absorption.
[14:07]I wish that for her.
[14:09]And I know I created her.
[14:10]But in a sense, she felt out of control even for me.
[14:14]Like as I was writing her, it sometimes
[14:16]sent me into kind of a dark place.
[14:18]And I sort of want to imagine that the character
[14:20]that I've created would get better, in a sense,
[14:24]or become a better person at the very least.
[14:27]And so yeah, I think wherever she is out in the fictional sphere,
[14:32]I wish that for her that she would kind of not
[14:35]to escape that kind of diagnosis in the long term.
[14:38]I wish that for her too, but I am less optimistic.
[14:42]That's fair.
[14:43]I'm not, I think she needs some true words.
[14:47]Yes, although traditionally narcissists do not
[14:50]respond particularly well with therapy,
[14:52]because they don't see any problems with themselves.
[14:54]Yeah, or they can't throw me out of it.
[14:56]Yeah, they can justify it.
[14:58]So I'm not as optimistic.
[14:59]But who knows?
[15:00]You never know.
[15:03]OK, so you're not writing a sequel.
[15:05]Are you writing another book?
[15:06]You must be.
[15:07]I'm in the very early stages of something, yes.
[15:11]But as you know, since you're also a writer,
[15:13]it, wow, it is coming very slowly.
[15:16]And I feel like I keep pivoting on what I want to be.
[15:18]But it's not going to really have much to do with social media
[15:22]at the moment.
[15:23]It's going to be more of a family story,
[15:25]which when I told my family, they're like, dear god.
[15:28]But I've been inspired by just the generations of my family
[15:33]and wanting to tell the stories of people who
[15:37]have been long gone and sort of fictionalize those
[15:39]and imagine like other universes, other parallel lives
[15:42]for them.
[15:43]And it's going to maybe have something
[15:45]to do with art since I inherited a lot of my grandparents
[15:48]art when they passed and sort of all over my house,
[15:51]including this lovely little winter scene behind me.
[15:54]So I feel like I'm sort of living with ghosts
[15:56]in my apartment and want to sort of dive into that.
[16:00]And yeah, so it's very unformed.
[16:02]It's a very unformed idea of that.
[16:04]I've been thinking about it.
[16:06]When my grandparents passed away, my grandmother, after my
[16:09]grandfather passed away, well, technically my step
[16:12]grandfather doesn't matter.
[16:13]Anyway, she took a painting as like her way.
[16:16]Anyway, I always was encouraging her to do that.
[16:19]And so I have inherited like all her canvases,
[16:22]which is great.
[16:24]So I have them like all around this one area
[16:27]so that I always like walk in and see her with all her stuff.
[16:30]And we have like the clock that my grandfather sculpted
[16:33]for her like he was a sculptor.
[16:35]And anyway, anyway, I just, and then like the little thing
[16:39]where she kept her nuts that says, I'm not about you.
[16:42]So I like keep my medicine and like, I don't know,
[16:45]it's just nice to have these little touchstones.
[16:47]But it is I do hear you about living with ghosts.
[16:50]There is something about keeping the objects
[16:53]that keeps the person a little more, I don't know.
[16:56]No, I think that's absolutely it.
[16:58]It's sort of you can't help but think of them in some ways
[17:00]you pass by, even if you're like rushing out the door,
[17:02]you know, living there and kind of staring at you.
[17:05]So yeah, I almost feel like more than a picture.
[17:08]I feel like you can be desensitized to pictures.
[17:10]Yeah, somehow objects.
[17:12]At least from graphs or yeah, yeah.
[17:14]Yeah, I mean, like photos of the person.
[17:16]Oh, yeah.
[17:17]Like it's also like how we remember them.
[17:19]I mean, a photograph is less there's less room
[17:21]for imagination with a photograph.
[17:23]Yes, paintings, especially like landscapes.
[17:25]I don't know.
[17:26]You can sort of get lost inside of it in a sense.
[17:28]And yes, I want to explore that somehow.
[17:31]You're right.
[17:31]Awesome.
[17:32]Well, good luck.
[17:34]We'll see.
[17:34]We like having up in three years and hopefully I'll finish
[17:37]to find out how long did this take to take three years?
[17:40]It's six years actually from, I mean,
[17:43]from literal seed first chapter written,
[17:46]you know, I started in the summer of 2016
[17:48]and then kind of worked on it on and off over the course of,
[17:53]well, I guess six years including the year
[17:55]that I was working on it with my editor after it had sold,
[17:57]but which was a transformative year.
[18:00]But there's a fantastic, fantastic reader.
[18:02]I got really lucky.
[18:04]But yes, who is your editor?
[18:05]Her name is Lexi Kistola.
[18:07]She's at Dutton.
[18:07]And you know, we're around the same age.
[18:09]So I felt like she really understood Naomi and understood
[18:12]what I was trying to do and the themes I was trying to explore
[18:15]and really made the book better in like every way.
[18:17]So I'm indebted.
[18:19]Editors can do that.
[18:20]Yes, your weapon totally.
[18:23]So what are you reading now in all your spare time?
[18:26]In all my spare time.
[18:26]Well, I actually just finished a book
[18:28]that I really adored mostly because I've been feeling
[18:30]a lot of wander less lately.
[18:31]And it's called Six Days in Rome.
[18:33]Yes.
[18:34]That's good.
[18:35]Yeah, I love that book.
[18:36]It was so, yeah, so beautiful, so sensual.
[18:39]I was salivating the entire time
[18:42]because the food descriptions were so great.
[18:43]But also just, I really resonated with me
[18:46]the descriptions of living with a famous father.
[18:49]And I read a list with a famous father
[18:50]and sort of reflecting on her childhood.
[18:52]You said you've read it.
[18:53]So you, you're not.
[18:53]I haven't read, I have not read it yet, but I read about it enough
[18:57]and like folks said it enough to decide I wanted to do it.
[19:00]Yeah, it's beautiful, beautiful.
[19:02]And I also really loved Post Traumatic by Montel Johnson,
[19:07]really, really fascinating book.
[19:09]Hilarious, like wiggly funny, but also really moving
[19:13]and kind of infuriating at times
[19:14]because it just delves into a lot of relevant topics
[19:17]and mental illness, given kind of ironic
[19:19]because if you were just talking about armchair diagnosis.
[19:22]Yeah.
[19:23]Yes, she said that the narrator is a lawyer
[19:25]for institutionalized people.
[19:27]So it's just, it's a fascinating book,
[19:29]but it manages to be like,
[19:31]to cover a lot of really dark, really heavy topics
[19:33]with a lot of dry, dark humor, which is from my,
[19:36]on my alley.
[19:37]And I'm right now reading a book called House Breaking
[19:40]by Colleen Hubbard, which is-
[19:41]Yes, wonderful.
[19:42]I've heard of it.
[19:43]Yes, awesome.
[19:45]Wow.
[19:46]What about you?
[19:46]I'm sure you're reading like a million things at once.
[19:49]Oh, you don't want to know what I just had for the weekend.
[19:51]No, I'm serious.
[19:52]I literally, I was like, I don't have a babysitter this weekend
[19:56]and I'm going with the kids
[19:57]and I'm like, there is no way I can read 12 books.
[19:59]Like this is-
[20:00]stupid. So anyway, those sounds insurmountable, especially since you have your own book coming out soon,
[20:05]but I'm sure it's going to be a crazy song. I know. Anyway, I left half of them. I'm like,
[20:10]maybe I could get there. So instead, I really want actually to be totally honest with you, I was like,
[20:15]here, I'm in my head. I was like, these are the times where I'm willing to read this weekend.
[20:19]And this is the time in my head that I'm going to carve out and not be doing any work so that I
[20:23]can be present for the kids and whatever. So yeah, at least because usually I'm just like, well,
[20:27]if I just do a few more, you know, that an hour goes by. Yeah, that sounds, that sounds stressful.
[20:34]You're able to balance. I won't be, but you know, at least I'm going in with a plan.
[20:38]So it seems relevant given the title of your podcast. Which of course is not just for moms,
[20:45]but you know, of course, of course, but you know, it's where I am in life. So yeah, there you go.
[20:51]worse. This was really fun. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for
[20:56]scaring me to death about my post. And, you know, I think I'm now going to
[21:01]grill my husband a little more about the X's. Yeah, maybe when I find out some uncomfortable stories.
[21:08]Yeah, and I know a lot of people change their profile to private after they read my book. So
[21:13]oh, man, I can't do that. It's like my livelihood.
[21:17]Of course, I know it for all authors. I mean, I know it's a good public, right? Before I'm about
[21:23]10x, I want readers to reach me and it's been lovely to sort of connect with readers and just
[21:28]have, you know, just know that it's like out there in the world doing something about me,
[21:32]but at the same time, like maybe I should do myself a deadline of whether I'm going to
[21:36]swing back into the shadows, you know, maybe authors should all start like private second accounts.
[21:41]Maybe they already do that and I don't even know. I'm going to start. I'm going to
[21:46]and just find out. I'll hear the author fake account. Yeah, like the dark, the dark web of the author
[21:51]is. Yeah, that would be a funny, yeah, the underbelly of the library where this author says.
[21:55]Yeah. Well, we'll have to, we'll have to do some digging. Yeah, another novel.
[22:00]Yeah. Thank you so much, Debbie. Thank you for your time.
[22:04]Really like adding it to you too. Bye bye.
[22:08]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:12]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:17]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[22:22]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the
[22:27]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[22:31]now trim music.