Soon Wiley, WHEN WE FELL APART: A Novel
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[1:29]Soon Wiley is the author of when we fell apart a novel a native of Niac, New York
[1:34]Soon Wiley received his BA in English and philosophy from Connecticut College
[1:38]He holds an MFA in creative writing from Wichita State University
[1:42]His writing has been nominated for a push guard prize and earned him fellowships in Wyoming and France
[1:47]He resides in Connecticut with his wife and their two cats
[1:50]Welcome soon. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss when we fell apart
[1:55]Thanks for having me the answer to this for me is like every single day
[2:01]Every morning before he could just be present tense right here
[2:06]We're just continuously falling apart
[2:08]Yes, mine would be when we fall apart
[2:10]But anyway, can you tell listeners a little about what this book is about and your inspiration for it?
[2:16]Yeah, so the the story follows our protagonist men who's a Korean American
[2:21]He's uh, he's also biracial and he's
[2:24]kind of recently graduated from college and the the book begins set in Seoul
[2:30]And he's decided to move to Seoul in the hopes of kind of finding a sense of belonging in terms of his identity
[2:36]But also in terms of his career, so he a few years before this
[2:40]He's graduated. He doesn't really love his job
[2:42]So he decides to take a job in Seoul and Korea
[2:46]But the book actually opens with the the death of his girlfriend
[2:51]Eugene and the the police are kind of adamant that it's a suicide
[2:55]But men is kind of has his has his suspicions
[2:58]And so the novel opens with kind of the announcement of her death
[3:02]And we actually get her perspectives as well
[3:04]So for men's chapters
[3:06]He's kind of searching for answers in the present of the novel trying to figure out what exactly happened
[3:11]if she did kind of take her own life
[3:13]And if she did why and Eugene's chapters
[3:16]We also get her perspective those begin well before she's actually even that men
[3:20]So those begin kind of when she's in high school
[3:23]And her chapters kind of at some point they cross
[3:27]So in the middle of the novel eventually she catch her timeline catches up to his while he's searching
[3:33]But her not her kind of sections unravel the mystery of why exactly she might have done what she did
[3:40]So there's kind of this back and forth and we do kind of hear from both of them
[3:44]But that's kind of the the book in a nutshell
[3:46]When he finds out about her death
[3:49]It was just so like the scene that you have where he's just like this is impossible because I just saw her
[3:54]Right there is that sense of when someone dies suddenly that you're just like
[3:58]Well it couldn't possibly happen like that because I have proof that this person was alive
[4:03]Because it was just a few hours ago
[4:05]It's so it's somehow just so hard to wrap your mind around
[4:08]The instant you know that there's just the second that you go from me
[4:12]I this is sounding ridiculous
[4:13]But I don't know you captured it very well his complete shock and initial just unwilling us to accept what's happened
[4:21]Given what he knows of recent events
[4:24]Yeah, no, I
[4:25]I you know, it's funny
[4:26]I worked on
[4:28]That scene where the detective right is kind of explaining to him what's happened and that
[4:32]To be honest that chapter took the longest to write even though it's it's one of the earliest ones
[4:37]But yeah, I wanted to capture that sense of you know, I think we've all experienced that sense of kind of disbelief right of
[4:44]Death in general right kind of it feels so immediate and it feels so sudden and then especially in the case of right of
[4:51]Kind of someone taking their own life that kind of adds another layer of disbelief
[4:55]especially if this is someone who
[4:58]Showed no signs right of any kind of distress
[5:01]Which is something that adds kind of another layer of doubt for men that that he kind of can't even really comprehend that this is this is what's happening
[5:08]Well, and by the way, it does not open with that it opens with this
[5:12]excruciating
[5:13]But shoulder injury on the rugby field where you know, it's so funny with books because you never know exactly what you're gonna get when you open up a book and then
[5:22]You know here. I am just like
[5:25]Trying to read and the next thing you know
[5:26]I'm like in the midst of a rugby field with like my shoulder hurt
[5:30]You know, I mean how you can just totally lose yourself in these characters
[5:32]And I was thinking to myself like it's very rare to open or maybe it's the books
[5:37]I read mostly. I don't know, but I feel like it's very rare to open mid athletic event
[5:43]just silly because
[5:45]Athletic events have a spent in competition and physicals. I mean those are some of the most edge of your seat
[5:52]Events and things that can happen around like why isn't that an opening scene more often jamming because you're you
[5:58]I'm setting the trend of you know now
[6:01]We're gonna see all all new novels are gonna be opening mid mid athletic injury
[6:06]event. Yes. Yeah, totally. I'm rewriting the my next book
[6:12]No, I'm kidding, but I do found I found it to be a very it was a great opening scene and then I also found it really and tell me
[6:20]If this is actually true and if it is and I'm just totally ignorant
[6:24]So be it I wouldn't be surprised but do they really
[6:28]Pause all the things and soul for these exams. Yeah, that's a that's a real thing. Oh my gosh
[6:35]You know, and I was I was there so I lived in Seoul
[6:40]For a year teaching English is a foreign language and this is well before I was thinking about writing a book or or anything
[6:46]but I I remember
[6:48]You know the day quite well that it was just everyone knew about the day
[6:52]I mean, it's essentially almost like a national holiday writer like a bank holiday where
[6:57]You know the country pretty much shuts down and there's this
[7:01]I don't know. I think you could look at it as a positive and also a negative
[7:04]So it's a positive in the sense of like the country comes together and like collectively
[7:10]Bakes it easier for kids to get to school on this really important day where they have to take exams
[7:15]But then there's also this kind of immense
[7:18]Like national collective pressure, right? Because like you're kind of aware of the fact that
[7:23]Everyone knows that this the day
[7:25]But yes, they that experience of kind of taking that that test for high schoolers
[7:30]A little bit different than when I took my SATs or my GRE, which I remember just being a total disaster
[7:39]Yeah, I was in this like terrible high school situation. I've never been in before and oh my gosh
[7:45]Anyway, whatever my SAT
[7:47]It was a long, long time ago. Yes. Okay. So tell me about the dual timeline of this whole the dual
[7:56]But points of view because there are sometimes there's controversy of whether different genders can inhabit different characters roles
[8:04]And you know all of that and then I know you focus a lot on on this sort of identity as being
[8:11]I know what you've written about and they're in your in the book club guide
[8:15]You wrote really interestingly about growing up where people didn't know your ethnicity and what always ask and make guesses
[8:21]And you never kind of felt like
[8:23]And having anything so tell me about that and sort of ownership of identity and the ability to write about it
[8:29]Just like go off that that tangent. I mean so I I mean
[8:34]George Saunders, you know, he had a book his his most recent book a swim
[8:38]It's a really complicated title
[8:40]But a swim in a in a pond in the rain
[8:42]I think and he talks a lot about writing from different perspectives
[8:47]And I think in general right is really important for writers
[8:50]Like the whole point of writing fiction is to inhabit
[8:53]Characters that aren't you right? I mean that that is the act of fiction right is that you sit there
[8:59]And you imagine deeply and you kind of enter this headspace of where you're in an imaginary character
[9:06]And I think most books would be pretty bad if writers only inhabited characters that were like themselves or at least
[9:13]That doesn't really sound that fun to me
[9:15]But Saunders in one of the essays in that book talks about
[9:20]Sometimes when that can go wrong
[9:23]Or when readers feel as if okay, this is no longer
[9:27]This is now bordering on offensive right where we've got a writer of a certain identity writing about something that isn't
[9:34]Shared experience for them
[9:36]And there's some something happens right where the reader maybe feels as if
[9:40]I don't know if I'm still on board with this knowing what I know about the writer
[9:44]And Saunders actually just says which I quite like is that
[9:48]It might just be that the writing is bad and that's what offends you right it's not that the writer is
[9:55]A bigot or that they have you know specific offensive ideas
[10:00]is about this person that they're characterizing,
[10:02]but it might just be that the writing is bad,
[10:04]which I kind of like that explanation.
[10:06]And for me, I mean, so I, you know,
[10:08]mean is a character who we have a lot of shared experiences
[10:12]for both biracial, we're both Korean,
[10:14]we both went and lived in Korea for some time.
[10:17]And I think that, you know, for a lot of debut novelists,
[10:21]I think, I mean, this is painting with broad strokes,
[10:23]but their first book is close, right, to them in some way.
[10:27]And so that was an avenue in for me,
[10:30]at least into his character.
[10:32]But the funny thing is, is that when I first wrote the book,
[10:35]it was only from his perspective.
[10:38]And then I finished a draft of it,
[10:40]and I thought, you know, this is okay.
[10:44]It got me an agent, which I was thankful for,
[10:46]but it didn't, I knew that there were some things lacking
[10:51]and it also felt a little bit felt odd to me
[10:56]that we are going to follow this male character
[10:59]who then finds himself like through the death of his girlfriend,
[11:03]who we never got to hear from.
[11:04]It just felt a little bit odd, right?
[11:07]Like boy, me, his girl, girl dies, boy finds himself
[11:11]and is like happy, right?
[11:13]It just feels, it felt a little bit odd, not to hear from her.
[11:17]So I put his sections aside and then I actually wrote
[11:20]her point of view.
[11:23]And I actually, you know, I said to myself,
[11:25]okay, well, let's like, what would her voice sound like?
[11:28]And she was already a character in the book.
[11:30]She was already fully formed.
[11:32]She had lines of dialogue,
[11:33]but we just never got her perspective.
[11:35]And so I started writing her chapters
[11:38]and, you know, from the first person perspective.
[11:42]And those chapters were actually far more fun to write
[11:47]and they were actually easier to write than men's.
[11:50]So kind of if I could aggregate like time spent,
[11:54]it was like 60% 70% on men's chapters.
[11:58]And the rest was on Eugene's chapters.
[12:00]And for some reason her character, her voice,
[12:03]and her experience, which are obviously have nothing to do
[12:06]with anything that I experienced
[12:09]were far easier to write,
[12:10]which I kind of speaks to kind of what your initial question
[12:13]is about is just that, you know,
[12:15]fiction is really about imagining
[12:16]and kind of putting yourself in the shoes of characters
[12:20]that you really have nothing in common with.
[12:22]And so sometimes the characters
[12:23]that you're actually closer to personally, right?
[12:26]And that you do have share experience with,
[12:29]sometimes those are harder to write,
[12:30]because I think you're, you've been bringing all sorts
[12:32]of like personal baggage, right?
[12:34]Which isn't always that helpful.
[12:36]In some ways it is, but in some ways it isn't.
[12:39]Wow, well that is very interesting.
[12:42]See, this is what you never know.
[12:43]Like, I would never have thought that her chapters
[12:48]were not part of this initial thing
[12:50]because that feels so integral to the whole story.
[12:53]But there you go.
[12:54]This is why these conversations are so interesting to me.
[12:56]Yeah, and it's probably, you know,
[12:58]and it's a good thing too,
[12:59]because I think it makes,
[13:00]it certainly makes the book better.
[13:02]I hope.
[13:03]Yeah, no, I was like totally rooting for her
[13:07]and her success to like get out
[13:09]and when her parents were like,
[13:10]we're gonna come move to Seoul too
[13:12]or we're gonna come move in with you for college.
[13:14]She was like,
[13:16]please don't.
[13:17]Yeah, I know, I'm sure some kids
[13:19]depending on what age they're reading it are going,
[13:22]God, I hope that doesn't happen to me.
[13:24]Yeah.
[13:25]Although I kind of get it as a parent.
[13:27]I'm like, oh, well, how great.
[13:29]Let's pretend my kid went to like,
[13:31]you know, Santa Barbara.
[13:32]That would be just so little Santa Barbara, you know?
[13:35]We'll move the family for four years.
[13:36]Yeah, exactly.
[13:37]Real estate college at the same, you know.
[13:40]Exactly. Perfect.
[13:41]Perfect.
[13:42]So this was your first novel.
[13:44]Tell me about getting into fiction writing
[13:47]at all at this point,
[13:48]like what you've been doing alongside it.
[13:51]So I guess I first started writing
[13:54]when I was, you know, kind of in college,
[13:56]I was trying things out.
[13:58]I didn't, you know, I didn't consider myself a writer.
[14:02]I wasn't, I was an English major,
[14:04]but I don't even think we could major
[14:05]in creative writing at my school I went to.
[14:08]And I on a whim,
[14:11]I kind of entered this short story contest at my college
[14:14]and I didn't win first place,
[14:16]but I shared first place with one of my good college friends
[14:20]and I had there's a writing teacher there named Blancheboy
[14:23]and she emailed me and she was like,
[14:25]who are you?
[14:26]Why don't I know who you are?
[14:27]Why aren't you in my class?
[14:28]So I ended up taking one creative writing class with her.
[14:33]My like last year basically in college.
[14:36]And she was very adamant.
[14:39]You know, she said, don't get your MFA.
[14:40]Just go like kind of live your life.
[14:42]And you know, you can always go to school later.
[14:46]And so I did that.
[14:47]I went to Korea and then I ended up applying
[14:49]to MFA programs two years after that.
[14:52]And I was just predominantly working on short stories,
[14:55]but I still, I think a lot of writers feel like this.
[14:59]I didn't feel like a writer.
[15:00]I mean kind of when your friends are all doing normal jobs,
[15:05]like making money, actually living their lives
[15:08]in the real world, like going to graduate school
[15:10]is a very kind of bizarre thing,
[15:12]especially for creative writing
[15:14]because you don't actually need to agree to write creatively.
[15:17]So it already feels kind of stupid.
[15:22]You know, so I was doing that.
[15:24]So that was actually in Kansas, funnily enough.
[15:26]So they gave me like the most money.
[15:28]So I just went there.
[15:30]And you know, I was writing creative writing stories.
[15:33]And then, but then I kind of saw the writing
[15:35]on the wall in terms of jobs.
[15:37]And so I ended up becoming a high school English teacher.
[15:39]So I got a great gig teaching English in DC.
[15:44]And that was, I worked there for seven years.
[15:47]And pretty much when I started my job there,
[15:50]I started working on this book.
[15:52]And I didn't really know, you know, as my first novel,
[15:55]I didn't know what it was or what was gonna happen.
[15:59]But it felt good to write something that I knew
[16:03]I didn't have to workshop
[16:04]because in graduate school,
[16:05]you have to workshop everything
[16:06]and you have to get feedback.
[16:07]So the book basically took me seven years.
[16:10]So from the time I started that job in DC
[16:13]and then I live in Connecticut now,
[16:14]but I worked at that job in DC for seven years.
[16:17]And so basically from start to finish,
[16:20]that's how long it took me to get kind of the book kind of,
[16:25]everything, written, revised, agent senators,
[16:28]that whole kind of thing.
[16:29]So it's kind of wild,
[16:31]because I think in some parts of the book,
[16:33]I wrote seven years ago.
[16:35]And then other parts I wrote, you know, a year ago.
[16:37]So it's very odd to kind of think about, you know,
[16:40]well, you know this, like you're a different person, right?
[16:44]You're a different and you're the same,
[16:46]but then it's weird that the book is this kind of single entity.
[16:49]So there's kind of this magic trick.
[16:51]I think that as a writer,
[16:52]you kind of have to inhabit this weird book space
[16:57]that isn't relying on time or anything like that
[17:00]just so that it can be like a single entity
[17:04]that makes sense.
[17:05]Totally.
[17:06]Plus maybe you're getting better as a writer
[17:07]as the years go on.
[17:09]I hope.
[17:12]Well, I think that's true also, right?
[17:14]So then it's like, that's also the concern, right?
[17:16]It's like, okay, if I'm getting better as a writer,
[17:18]which you hope, does that mean that the beginning of the book
[17:22]is like crap?
[17:23]And the end of the book is really good.
[17:25]And then you kind of have to go back.
[17:27]And then I also think one of the things I was really paranoid
[17:29]about is, okay, I've revised the first like 80 pages
[17:33]of the book probably a hundred times,
[17:37]because those are the pages that you're working on the most.
[17:39]Those are the pages maybe you're submitting to agents
[17:42]or editors.
[17:43]And also if you're editing,
[17:44]you usually start from the beginning or at least I do.
[17:46]So then the end of the book,
[17:47]I probably didn't revise nearly as much as the first.
[17:50]So maybe that's actually how it works,
[17:52]is that you're better by the end
[17:55]so you don't have to revise as much.
[17:57]And that's why you've had to revise so much
[17:59]in the beginning, but I'm not sure how it works.
[18:01]Yeah, maybe everybody should read our books backwards.
[18:04]I mean, maybe that kind of liked that idea actually.
[18:08]The sample chapter out there should not be
[18:10]at the beginning, it should definitely be later chapter.
[18:12]Exactly.
[18:13]It's funny.
[18:14]So are you working on a new project?
[18:16]Yeah.
[18:17]Yes, I, you know, so I was fortunate enough
[18:20]to get a two book deal.
[18:22]So I am kind of working on something,
[18:25]which also is a very weird process
[18:28]because when I was working on the first book,
[18:30]I didn't know that it was going to be published.
[18:32]So there was a certain kind of freedom to that
[18:35]because freedom and anxiety, right,
[18:38]of like, can working on this thing for seven years,
[18:42]it might never get published.
[18:44]That's scary, but now I'm working on something
[18:47]and I'm like, this is definitely gonna get published
[18:49]and that's actually scary here.
[18:52]And you know, again, I mean, to work on something
[18:54]for seven years, it feels, I think,
[18:57]I feel like the time spent on it, you know,
[19:00]has made it a strong fiction kind of effort.
[19:04]But to then write a book and I don't know,
[19:07]I'm gonna have to, can't be seven years,
[19:09]that's true.
[19:10]So it's gonna be interesting.
[19:11]I think the process will be really different.
[19:14]Well, and you can't say anything about that.
[19:16]I think it will be in the same vein as,
[19:19]so when we fell apart, I was very interested
[19:22]in trying to write, you know, successfully, hopefully,
[19:26]a mystery and a literary book.
[19:28]So, you know, those are the kind of books
[19:31]that I really enjoy.
[19:32]So I think I'm gonna write something,
[19:34]I'm working on something in a similar vein
[19:36]of kind of a mystery at the center of it,
[19:39]but hopefully something with some kind of literary aspirations.
[19:43]So what are some of those books that you love,
[19:45]that are in that genre?
[19:46]Um, you know, it's so funny.
[19:49]A book that I didn't read until, so,
[19:51]Celestings, everything I never told you.
[19:54]I was working on my book and that book came out
[19:58]and I had a friend mention it to me, and I was like,
[19:59]I...
[20:00]I can't read this book right now,
[20:01]because sometimes when you read stuff
[20:05]that is a little bit too close to home,
[20:07]it can be a little bit demoralizing, right?
[20:09]Like, well, you know, she's done it.
[20:11]So I might as well just pack it in now.
[20:14]But I did eventually read that.
[20:16]And that to me is kind of a really fantastic example
[20:20]of a kind of a mystery,
[20:24]but with kind of real kind of meaty questions,
[20:27]and kind of big questions to discuss,
[20:29]you know, something we don't,
[20:31]I don't think Sally Rooney's normal people
[20:33]is billed as a mystery at all,
[20:35]but there is real mystery there,
[20:36]like the characters are mysteries
[20:38]and kind of what's going on at home
[20:40]and what's the deal with the families
[20:42]and kind of the family dynamics there.
[20:44]So that's one of my favorites as well.
[20:47]And then I'm also a huge Haruki Murakami fan.
[20:50]So the Japanese author,
[20:51]and he's always got kind of some mystery bubbling beneath
[20:55]the surface, even if it's really something dumb,
[20:58]like this green little monster showed up in my backyard
[21:02]and I don't know how to get rid of it.
[21:03]I think that's how one of the short stories begins.
[21:06]And then the British writer, Kazuya Ishiguro,
[21:08]who I think is most recent book Claire in the Sun,
[21:11]but he's always got some type of,
[21:13]and again, those aren't really, you know,
[21:15]traditional mystery novels,
[21:18]but I think they always have some kind of like narrative thread
[21:23]that's pulling us through, right?
[21:24]That we kind of want to know,
[21:25]even if it's as vague as like,
[21:27]don't really know what's going on here.
[21:28]So I'm gonna kind of keep reading to find out.
[21:31]Well, I have to admit,
[21:32]I did not read Clara and the Sun,
[21:34]although I knew all about it and wish I had done so.
[21:38]But I did get to see him accept an award at,
[21:41]I think it was either the poets and writers
[21:43]or Center for Fiction or-
[21:45]Yeah, Center for Fiction, I think for the last year.
[21:47]Yeah, yes, two years ago.
[21:49]So I feel like now I got to know him a little bit
[21:53]and he was so humble and yet so well spoken.
[21:55]And anyway, it's on my list.
[21:58]It's on that.
[21:58]Well, for me, like, he remains of the day,
[22:01]which is also an amazing movie with Anthony Hopkins
[22:05]and Emma Thompson.
[22:06]I probably shouldn't plug the movie, that's sacrilegious,
[22:08]but the that book is like phenomenal.
[22:11]It's one of my favorite books
[22:13]and very much has kind of a mystery to it.
[22:16]So yeah, I feel like there were more time.
[22:19]I know, I know, you need a lot more time
[22:22]because you've got a lot of books
[22:23]for a lot more books than I have to read.
[22:25]I should start another podcast
[22:26]of just like books I've missed, you know,
[22:28]like books I wish I'd read.
[22:30]Yeah, just listing books that you need to read.
[22:33]Oh, I could do that.
[22:33]Yeah, well, then it's embarrassing to me
[22:35]that it's like, then people can see how completely, you know,
[22:39]how many holes I have in my reading repertoire.
[22:42]So let's not call attention to that.
[22:44]I mean, it's a herculean effort though.
[22:48]I mean, I think, you know, for people that don't know
[22:53]the publishing industry, once I've had a few friends
[22:57]just say, I can't believe like how many books come out
[23:01]every week, right?
[23:03]It's like this machine and it's endless.
[23:05]And, you know, there are more books released
[23:08]than like Netflix shows and, you know, it's endless.
[23:12]So I think you should be commended
[23:14]regardless of your number of books read.
[23:18]Thank you.
[23:19]It is impossible.
[23:20]And I think a lot about this,
[23:22]but this is like a whole separate conversation.
[23:23]So the supply and demand of the publishing industry
[23:26]and how there is just not, is there enough time
[23:30]and are there enough readers to justify
[23:32]how many books are always coming out?
[23:34]Does it make sense?
[23:35]Should there be some more limits?
[23:36]Like, I don't know.
[23:37]I feel like there's an end to that.
[23:38]I totally agree.
[23:39]I mean, I feel like, and again, this is probably
[23:43]not content that no one wants to hear
[23:45]but you know, I was thinking about,
[23:50]I haven't seen Top Gun yet,
[23:52]but, you know, it's like that harkens back to a time
[23:55]when there were like three or four summer movies, right?
[23:59]And it was like, okay, Top Gun,
[24:01]let's go see the one summer movie that's out.
[24:06]And I do wonder about that in terms of books
[24:08]where it does seem like, you know,
[24:11]there can't possibly be this many people
[24:14]that want to read this many books.
[24:16]So it's kind of interesting to see,
[24:17]I think what will happen in the future.
[24:21]I think that is why I felt so relieved
[24:23]seeing the new Top Gun.
[24:24]Because I literally felt like it was like,
[24:28]oh, there are still like big movies
[24:32]that keep me riveted.
[24:33]Like, my attention span for movies and TV has declined.
[24:38]I think as I read more, I don't know.
[24:40]I don't know, but I'm just like,
[24:41]oh great, we're all gonna see this movie.
[24:43]How nice, we can talk about the same thing.
[24:45]But I think that's why there's now this overliance
[24:47]on book club picks, right?
[24:49]Right, like just tell me what to read.
[24:51]Just tell me what to, which I'm kind of trying to do
[24:55]with this podcast, right, which is curation.
[24:57]But yet I have like 365 episodes a year.
[25:00]So it's not totally curated.
[25:02]But I'm hoping people find at least, you know,
[25:04]honestly, even picking this many is winnowing it down
[25:07]from like the bazillions that could be read.
[25:10]So I think in 10 years we're gonna have
[25:12]a podcast that aggregates the podcast
[25:16]that you should listen to, right?
[25:17]I mean, that's kind of like where we're at.
[25:19]We've got so many podcasts that we're gonna need
[25:21]someone to tell us which podcast to listen to
[25:23]and also which book club picks to pick.
[25:27]Maybe we can do that.
[25:29]There's something called Good Pods
[25:30]where you can like follow recommendations
[25:32]of your friends.
[25:33]Got it.
[25:34]See, it's already happening.
[25:35]It's already happening.
[25:36]You're behind already, I'm sorry, you know, good luck.
[25:39]Okay, last question, what advice do you have
[25:41]for aspiring authors?
[25:43]You know, I'm a big believer in just keep writing.
[25:46]I think that's what separates people that succeed
[25:49]and people that don't.
[25:51]And if you're willing to at whatever stage you're at
[25:55]to keep writing regardless of setbacks
[25:58]and regardless of I think time spent,
[26:00]I think we have a very warped perception of like years,
[26:05]years spent working on something and the kind of payoff.
[26:08]So if you're okay with working on something for 10 years
[26:12]which again, sounds crazy.
[26:14]But then I think in novel years,
[26:16]it 10 years actually isn't that long,
[26:18]which is also scary to think about.
[26:20]So yeah, just keep writing no matter what.
[26:22]I think that's really what separates the people
[26:24]that find success and the people that maybe tap out.
[26:28]Just it's not for me.
[26:29]I'm out of the game.
[26:31]I wonder what other art forms or whatever takes so long
[26:37]and then to read doesn't take that long at all.
[26:40]Like I said, I was 18 years on this memoir, on and off.
[26:43]And people are like, I read it in three hours or something.
[26:45]I'm like, that's great.
[26:46]Just not even makes it like, should I?
[26:49]You know what I mean?
[26:50]All that time for me.
[26:51]And then then up and then they put it down onto the next.
[26:54]It's like, I think I completely agree with that sentiment.
[26:59]I've experienced that as well when people say,
[27:02]I read it in one night.
[27:03]It's like, I'm so happy that you did,
[27:05]but also how is that possible?
[27:07]That you can consume something in a single night.
[27:10]But I agree also to your point about, you know,
[27:13]the worst part about writing is that you can't even show people
[27:16]what you've been working on.
[27:17]So at least if you're like a sculptor, right?
[27:19]You could be like, look, I've been carving this piece of rock
[27:21]for 18 years and like, here's what's,
[27:23]here's what I was before and here's what it is now.
[27:26]You're painting or you're writing music.
[27:28]You can kind of play someone a sample.
[27:30]But when you're writing, it's just like,
[27:33]you're just gonna have to take my word for it.
[27:34]Like I'm working on something, it exists.
[27:37]You can't see it.
[27:37]I don't want anyone to look at it.
[27:39]I don't want to talk about it.
[27:41]And yet I'm gonna spend, you know,
[27:42]a decade working on it.
[27:45]Especially because, okay, sorry, we should go,
[27:46]but, you know, I'm thinking,
[27:47]obviously, movies take a long time.
[27:49]Right.
[27:50]That it, there's so much truth.
[27:52]But there's so many people who work on those movies, right?
[27:55]You could have hundreds of people.
[27:56]True, it's a team.
[27:58]And writing is just like, okay,
[28:00]I'm gonna change this sentence again or anyway.
[28:03]The struggle is real.
[28:05]But the payoff is great.
[28:08]I mean, then you get these fabulous books.
[28:10]And it's amazing.
[28:11]So, anyway, congratulations.
[28:13]Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
[28:15]It was my pleasure.
[28:16]All right, take care.
[28:17]Thanks so much, Vie.
[28:18]Thank you.
[28:19]Bye-bye.
[28:20]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[28:22]Don't have time to read books.
[28:24]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[28:26]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[28:27]Don't have time to read books.
[28:29]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[28:31]and sign up for my virtual book club
[28:33]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:36]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[28:37]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:40]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:41]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.