Miriam Parker, ROOM AND BOARD: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books. It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career,
[0:18]their book, their life, and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir
[0:29]bookends, a memoir of love, loss, and literature, wherever books are sold starting July 1st,
[0:34]and my children's book, Princess Chairman, can learn more about me at Zivi Owens.com,
[0:39]but really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do.
[0:44]Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the Zecast podcast network.
[0:49]You can learn more at zecastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well.
[0:58]Also, just a quick note that submissions for the Zivi Awards are open and will close on September 15th.
[1:05]Go to ziviowens.com and you will find the Zivi Awards open submissions where we celebrate
[1:11]all the under-celebrated parts of a book, like The Best Spine, The Best Authors Note,
[1:16]The Best Table of Contents, and authors can nominate their own best publicist, best editors,
[1:22]and so on. There will be an in-person award ceremony in October in New York. You will not want to
[1:26]to miss it. Go to ziviowens.com. Miriam Parker is the author of Room and Board, a novel.
[1:33]Miriam worked in book publishing for more than 20 years and is currently the VP
[1:36]and Associate Publisher of Echo. She has an MFA in Creative Writing from UNC Wilmington
[1:41]and a BA in English from Columbia University. Her short stories have been published in the Florida
[1:46]Review and 14 Hills. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband, her daughter, and her spaniel,
[1:50]blea-fold bloom. Oh, there you are. Hi, I'm sorry. That's frozen. Yeah, weird. No worries.
[1:56]I would never have sort of had the audacity to meet somebody at a summer program or school or
[2:01]anything and be like, okay, let's go have dinner. What do you think? You know?
[2:05]I know. Well, I think that she, I mean, in some way, she forgets that there
[2:09]kids a little bit at the beginning. I think she's, oh, like this is what I do. I like
[2:13]me the new person. I would go out for dinner and I think as she's kind of having dinner with this girl,
[2:17]she's like, oh, I'm the grown-up in this situation. That's actually kind of a weird thing that
[2:23]it happens to you at some point and you're like, oh, no, I'm the more responsible one. Like, what
[2:27]do I do now? And that kind of thing is, you know, she changes her out the book to realize like,
[2:32]oh, I've got to like actually help these girls. Like, I need to be the grown-up in this situation.
[2:38]Yeah. Whatever that means. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. But I do think she starts
[2:43]to realize like she needs to have more boundaries. Yes. Which makes total sense. What made you
[2:50]want to revisit this time of life and boarding school campus and all of that?
[2:55]Well, I didn't go to boarding school, but I always wanted to go to one and I sort of,
[2:59]you know, would always kind of like, you know, there was always this kind of moment with my parents
[3:02]and I was like, can I just get out of here? You know? And so that was always a dream and I
[3:07]love the secret history and, you know, boarding school novels in general. So when I was thinking
[3:11]about what, you know, my next book was going to be, I was like, I'm not sure what the plot is
[3:14]going to be, but I know it has to be set in a boarding school. So that was a really fun setting because
[3:18]also everyone is kind of trapped together and so they have to kind of seal with each other
[3:22]and like get out of the scenarios that, you know, come to them with, you know, using their own resources.
[3:28]Yes. Totally. Wait. Tell me what was your high school experience like?
[3:33]So I grew up in Westchester. I went to, I went to, I'm from Hastings on Hudson and I went to
[3:38]Hastings High School and actually, you know, my experience is like pretty opposite from
[3:42]Jillian's. I mean, I went to the same school from kindergarten to senior year of high school.
[3:46]They were 80 kids in my class. We all knew each other. We knew everything about each other.
[3:51]You know, we knew each other's parents. We knew each other's grandparents, you know.
[3:54]So it was definitely like a pretty like, it was Intular in that way, but, you know, we all lived
[3:58]at home and a lot of the experiences, some of the experiences that Jillian has are based a little
[4:04]bit on what I went to college. I went to Columbia and like going to Columbia was like a pretty
[4:08]eye-opening experience for me. Like I just never met people who are so different from me.
[4:12]You know, royalty. You know, like, who are these people?
[4:19]That was definitely an experience for me. Like, oh my goodness. Like the world is much bigger than
[4:24]Hastings on Hudson. Yes. Although I grew up in New York City and my high school also had like
[4:29]89 people in my graduating class. Yeah. At the end, we knew a lot about each other too. So it
[4:34]doesn't matter. Small town, big town. You know, when your community seems very small,
[4:38]it's what makes all the difference. I feel like, yeah. So tell me how you got to end up
[4:44]being a publisher at Echo. So what was your whole career trajectory? And how did you
[4:51]writing and books play into your whole timeline? So I actually was a reader first, 100%.
[4:59]You know, I was in Hills Major in college and I really lucked into a job after I graduated from
[5:04]college over 20 years ago in publishing. Mostly because I loved books. And also I had at the time
[5:09]was building websites. And so I got a job building websites for what is now his chat book group,
[5:14]what was called Time Warner Trade Publishing back then. And it was a really cool job. I like got
[5:20]to build websites for city Sheldon and Walter Moseley and James Patterson. And I was 21 years old,
[5:27]you know. And so that was a really cool experience. And so, but in my early 20s, what I really
[5:32]missed was kind of that reward that you get from like going to school basically. So I started
[5:37]taking writing classes on the side, just as a thing, because I was like, I want, I still want
[5:42]that engagement. I want that, you know, creative outlet that I hadn't written really that much in
[5:46]college. But once I started working and publishing and meeting writers, I was like, oh, it's maybe
[5:51]I could do this. So I kind of had like a braided path. Like I always work in publishing. But I
[5:56]did get an MFA when I was starting when I was 25. So, but I worked all the hall in publishing
[6:02]all the way through the time that I was getting my MFA. So when I came back from my MFA, I was able
[6:08]to, you know, step right back in and become the marketing director for Mulholland books and helped
[6:12]watch that imprint. So that was kind of like the trajectory towards becoming the associate publisher
[6:17]of Echo, being the marketing director for a number of different imprints at Little Brown. And then
[6:21]when this position opened, I came to Echo about seven years ago. Wow. So as associate publisher,
[6:26]what's your, like, what's your job? Like, what are your days like?
[6:31]So every day is different. But my, I have my fingers and all the pots of Echo, basically. My main
[6:37]responsibilities are to oversee marketing and publicity and our relationship with sales. So
[6:41]I'm like, it's kind of class I've been meeting with our sales team to, you know, talk about
[6:44]our fall books. But I also weigh in on acquisitions, you know, and sort of think about the business
[6:50]side of acquisitions. And I, I do a lot of research for comp, you know, just talking about like,
[6:55]how, and how vision for how are we going to publish this book? How are we going to take the
[7:00]book that the editors, you know, make perfect and bring it out into the world and find the audience
[7:05]for it? So it's a really fun job, you know, I sort of like keep the trains running on time. And
[7:10]I'm involved in a lot of the like production and inventory and stuff like that, which I think is
[7:14]actually super interesting and fun. So this is a silly question. So did Echo publish your book?
[7:20]No, so done is my publisher. And actually I'm so, so glad that like my publisher is completely separate
[7:26]from my job. It's part of Penguin Random House and I work at HarperCollins. So I think
[7:31]I'm an actually, I've never worked at Penguin Random House. I've worked at Hashette and I've
[7:34]worked at HarperCollins. So I don't know the sales for, it's like, I can't go and like dig around
[7:39]the sales and figure things out. So I think it's better. Like, you know, my experience as an author
[7:44]is very pure. As pure as it could be for someone who works in book publishing. So I let my team
[7:50]it doesn't handle it. Like, I think they're experts. They're super good at their jobs. And I always
[7:55]like to say like, I know that even though they're not emailing me, like they're working on my book.
[8:00]So I'm sure you know, as a publisher, like there's so much that goes on behind the scenes that
[8:04]authors may or may not know about, you know, and maybe it's better if they don't know.
[8:08]Yeah. Yeah. I want our authors to like see, but it's like a series of zooms. You know,
[8:16]like I wish we were all in a room where somebody could be a fly on the wall or we could film it
[8:20]or we could let, you know, but it's so, I don't know. Our team is all over the place. So it's not
[8:25]like that same going into work and seeing what's happening thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I think so much,
[8:31]I mean, so much of what I do actually has to do with like the books that are in a warehouse
[8:35]in a place that I've never been, you know, or like getting them off the trucks and into the,
[8:40]you know, and like, you know, into cartons and into distribution and things like that. So,
[8:44]you know, a lot of it is really invisible. But even to me, so I'm just like, what does that place look
[8:49]like? So do you take sort of your own marketing publicity approach from Echo and then apply certain
[8:58]things to your own book marketing? And if so, like, what are some of the things that you feel like
[9:03]you're doing that have been most successful that like other authors out there should think about
[9:07]doing? Well, one thing I will say that I always tell authors and is to do the things that
[9:14]feel the best for you, like I would never force someone to get on Twitter if like it didn't feel
[9:18]comfortable to them if it wasn't a, you know, a natural thing for them. So I happen to love Instagram.
[9:24]I think it's really fun. I'm on there all day long. So I've been posting a lot of my content on
[9:28]Instagram, but like, I don't know how to use TikTok. Like, I just can't use, I don't know what to do.
[9:33]And I'm afraid of making videos. And so I think that, I mean, I've, I've, I've like,
[9:37]dabbled and I'm like, I just do not that good at this. So I'm not really, I'm not pursuing that.
[9:42]Although I'm totally in awe of the people who are good at it, you know. So my advice really to
[9:47]myself and also I think to other authors is that do what you like best. And that's where you're
[9:52]going to be successful because if you push yourself to do something that you're not good at,
[9:55]people are going to be able to tell. So I'm, I'm just in the same exact boat.
[10:00]I feel very comfortable on Instagram. I get it. It makes sense to me. I enjoy it. And TikTok.
[10:05]I'm like, this is, this is not good. This is not pretty.
[10:10]But hats off to people who can master everything. I mean, that's great, you know, but everybody
[10:14]has to pick and choose. There's only so much time in the day.
[10:19]In terms of your process when you're writing and how you approach books and how you approach
[10:25]plot and escalation and conflict and character and all that stuff. Tell me just, you see,
[10:31]I assume you learned a bunch of it that you're MFA program. But how do you put all that into
[10:35]practice? And when you set out to start a project, how do you approach it?
[10:40]Well, I actually like to think of books actually a little bit in terms of movies. Like,
[10:46]I love them. I love a loop classic movie structure, a three-act structure. And so I tend to think
[10:52]about book plotting that way. I did approach this book a little bit differently. My first book,
[10:56]I just wrote it and like, it was chaos. And this book was also chaotic in a different way. But I
[11:01]did decide to write actually like the treatment of it. And before I wrote it, it wasn't an outline.
[11:05]It was more like a narrative like five or six page, just description of the beats in the book
[11:11]and all the things that were going to happen, which is something that I saw like a film company do.
[11:16]And I was like, you know what? I think this is a good way for me to figure out what's going to
[11:20]happen in the book without me thinking the writing is boring. Because I think that if you have
[11:24]like a really strict outline, then writing is just kind of filling in the blanks. And that's not
[11:29]for me. Like, I want to feel a little, you know, like, I don't know exactly what's going to happen
[11:33]here. But I liked having a little bit of a roadmap that was kind of narrative that was like,
[11:37]when I was stuck, I'd be like, oh, let me check my treatment and see what it says. I should
[11:43]that was a good way to approach it. And I will say that this book got revised really heavily. And
[11:48]the first draft, the subplot of like the scandal that happens at the pool was different.
[11:53]Go ahead to go back and change the subplot. So a lot of things changed in the revision process,
[11:58]which I actually really love. Like, I kind of love the thing about fiction that someone can say,
[12:03]like, well, what if this happens instead of this? Like, you know, what if it's a financial scandal?
[12:07]And I was like, oh, yeah, that actually makes a lot more sense. So it had been kind of like a
[12:13]me too kind of a scandal which sort of echoed too much with her back story. And we were like,
[12:17]no, it's better if it's a financial scandal. So I had to, but I really had to go back and
[12:21]change a lot of things to make sure that that's all made sense. And so throughout the different
[12:25]draft you're reading, you're like, oh, I caught another thing. And it was like, you know, part of
[12:31]that old plot. Right. Oh my gosh, never ends that day. It's like surgery. Right. It's like making sure
[12:38]everything is sewn together just right. And yeah, I actually described it a little bit like
[12:43]a construction project. Like, I was like, I need to take this whole book of building a part.
[12:48]And then, and like, when it's a part, you're like, I'm not sure I can put it back together. I'm
[12:52]a little bit afraid of it. And then you kind of put it back together. And then you're like,
[12:55]oh, I did it. And then they're like, oh, can you change this too? And you're like, oh,
[12:58]I can take it apart again. Sure. The dreaded notes. I never used to like that even in school. I was like,
[13:08]no, my paper's fine. Like, I don't need to revise it. This grade, I'll take this grade. That's
[13:14]close enough. But then I think the worst part is like, just knowing that the notes are right.
[13:20]You know, like at least for me, you know, it could get, it could, it would be better if I did
[13:25]X, Y, and okay, I guess I do. I think, I mean, you know, it's stressful when you get the notes,
[13:31]but I will say I've found it's really lovely to have a really good editor. I mean, having a really
[13:37]good editor is like such a gift, you know. So, and I actually had my, my agent is also a very good
[13:43]editor. So my agent and my editor both weighed in and also there a system's weighed in, which I
[13:48]really appreciated because they are younger and they actually gave really, really good notes on,
[13:54]you know, especially on the kids and to make sure that they were like, I was writing them the right
[13:59]way. So yes, market research. Oh, that's good. So I'm curious what your parents did
[14:06]growing up because your sister Beth is a, is a literary publicist. You are a publisher and author.
[14:14]Tell me, like, what do you have other siblings, first of all or no, the two, it's just us too.
[14:19]And we both work in publishing, which is like, I think pretty remarkable. We're not, there aren't
[14:22]that many of us siblings and publishing. Um, we, uh, you know, we garnet sisters as well. So my dad was
[14:30]a teacher and he was an elementary school principal, um, like for most of my childhood. And my mom
[14:35]actually the scientist. She, her background is in laboratory work and she always worked in hospitals
[14:41]and labs and eventually actually became sort of like a computer consultant helping, helping laboratories
[14:47]and software. So, um, she's definitely like the tech element. But there were always books around when I
[14:53]was growing up. There were always, I was always writing, you know, I wrote little stories and notebooks
[14:59]and, you know, filled up computer floppy disks and stuff with stories starting when I was probably,
[15:04]you know, seven or eight years old. So I've always been kind of a reader and a writer.
[15:09]And I was, I was thinking yesterday about the time that, you know, I used to love the babysitters
[15:12]club and I would just like to vow or those books. And finally, my mom was like, you have to read
[15:16]something out so you have to stop reading the babysitters club. But I loved them, you know, and I
[15:20]think in some ways, you know, like a desire for like those readable plots that just move really
[15:26]fast and, you know, you get to know the characters really closely. Like in a lot of ways,
[15:29]you know, I like to say that little women is my influence, but honestly it's the babysitters club,
[15:33]you know. Oh, that's awesome. I somehow missed the babysitters club growing up. I was more like
[15:40]little house on the prairie and sweet valley high and maybe I don't know. I just missed it.
[15:45]Yeah. I love to meet that like high. Those are really good. They were good. I mean,
[15:50]they were twins. Yeah. You know, I growing up, I was like, wow, all these books have these
[15:56]glamorous twins. Like, I went twins and then I had twins and I'm like, this is not all glamorous.
[16:01]This is really hard. I, being a mom to twins, I just can't even imagine. Like, I have one
[16:07]daughter and I just, like if there were two of her, I don't know what I would do.
[16:12]It wouldn't be two of her. I mean, I guess the blessing of having or the benefit, not really
[16:17]blessing, the benefit is like, no matter how frustrated you are with someone, you could always
[16:22]go to the next one for you. That's not like your whole sample set, right? You have other
[16:28]inputs. I mean, I'm not actually kidding. So in terms of what you like to read yourself,
[16:35]what's like on your nightstand right now? Well, it's, you know, what I read is such a wide variety
[16:40]that it's kind of, I'm actually like the best thing about working in publishing is you are aware
[16:45]everything is being published. I'm like, what's really interesting? So like, right now the
[16:49]audio book I'm listening to is Ed Young's book in immense world, which is so good and like,
[16:53]so interesting. And I like learned something about my dog and I'm learning things about spiders and
[16:58]super interesting. And I just finished reading physical form, um, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow
[17:03]by Gabrielle Zven, which leg I just cannot. So I have to read this book. Literally everybody,
[17:09]bestseller, everyone I know is recommending it. I bought it. I have to read it. I have to read it.
[17:14]It will help you so much schedule her so that I force myself to read her.
[17:19]I think she's really interesting and she's written a bunch of books and some YA and
[17:24]and the research she did for this book is really interesting. Like, not through the public,
[17:27]for Gabrielle Zven, but I love her. Like, that book is amazing. So I love her. And then, um,
[17:33]you know, I'm also, I also just finished reading, trying an H mark, which I know came out a
[17:37]couple years ago, but I just finally got to read it after everyone I'd recommend to see in it.
[17:41]So lovely, you know, and made me hungry, which is another quality I like in a book.
[17:46]I have to admit, I have not read that book either and I know I will love it. I don't know if I'm
[17:50]saving it. I have that one too and I just keep waiting. I don't know what I'm waiting for.
[17:55]But anyway, yeah, that might be a good audio actually. I don't know. Do you ever do?
[17:59]Yeah. I do. I think you're walking. Yes. That's a great idea. I have been completely
[18:04]sedentary this summer. So I will, when I go back to dropping my kids to school and walking him,
[18:09]I'll start doing that. That's a good September project. Thank you. I love non, I love nonfiction and
[18:14]audio. Like, if I'm gonna, you know, like read a memoir or like, you know, a book like Ed, like,
[18:19]having Ed Young reads you is amazing. I know. It's like being told a bedtime story.
[18:25]It's like less book and more just like, okay, tell me about your life. Like, let's talk
[18:29]and I'll just listen. Like a conversation that requires literally no work.
[18:35]Right. Exactly. That would not knowing actually in a conversation with me because it's not,
[18:39]but I'll just pretend. Don't wait. Yeah, those are on my, on my wish list as well.
[18:45]And what about your upcoming books for Echo? Is there anything you want to plug or you're excited
[18:50]about? Well, we have such good stuff coming up for Echo. We are publishing Elizabeth McCracken's
[18:55]auto fiction book, The Hero of this book. And what I think you know about. Yeah. And I did
[19:00]it. I'm excited. Oh, it is so good. It will like the afternoon when I read that book was like one
[19:06]of those perfect afternoons. I like could not move off of my couch for three hours. And I just
[19:10]read it and wept and laughed. And it's a story about it's a mother daughter story. And she is,
[19:16]she's just an amazing writer. And she tells the story like so sensitively, but also like
[19:23]like puts in these little details about how she wrote the book. Like as you read it,
[19:28]just amazing. And then we're also publishing Kevin Wilson this fall. And he is an author who I just
[19:34]adore. And his new book is called Now It's Not the Time to Panic, which is applicable in many ways.
[19:39]And it's also, it was a great coming of age story of to end the way that it's about what the
[19:44]impact that art has on the world. And about, you know, a poster that kind of goes viral before
[19:51]that existed. So he's lovely. And everyone should read Kevin Wilson all the time. And it'll make
[19:56]them happy. I think I have that on the schedule too. I hope that
[20:00]I think you do.
[20:01]I think I do too.
[20:02]Okay, good.
[20:03]Perfect.
[20:04]Okay.
[20:05]So what other advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[20:07]Well, I have two pieces of advice.
[20:09]One of them is read everything, which I've already, it's advice I've already been in.
[20:13]Like read nonfiction.
[20:14]Read memoir, you know, read fiction.
[20:16]But even if you want to write fiction, I find that reading nonfiction and memoir like
[20:20]really, really helps you develop characters, help you get ideas.
[20:23]It introduces you to just different, you know, ways of writing and telling stories.
[20:27]So that's my advice in terms of reading.
[20:29]I also think that it's important for people to know that like writing a book takes time
[20:33]and that it's also like not a straight line that, you know, I mean, in the process of writing
[20:38]this book, I also wrote another book that I had to throw away.
[20:41]And that was the book that I had kind of sold on proposal.
[20:44]And when I was done with it, you know, my editor just didn't really love it.
[20:47]And I had to throw it away and write a new one.
[20:49]And like that, that, I mean, talk about a way to like break your heart.
[20:52]So hard on this, you know, I've written a novel and it's like not good enough.
[20:57]And so, you know, even if you're a public writer, if you've already published a book like, you know,
[21:02]it's not necessarily a straight line to getting to where you are.
[21:05]But I will say that I'm glad that I threw that book away and that this is the book that I'm, that I ended up, you know,
[21:11]really finishing and writing and publishing because the story, the story is just a lot closer to my heart.
[21:16]And it's a little, it's just something I feel more passionate about.
[21:19]So in the end, the right thing happens.
[21:21]But sometimes the journey to get there is not the easiest.
[21:25]You say that in such a chipper way, I had to throw out a whole novel.
[21:28]I'm like, the tears that would have been involved on my end for that would be, you know, would fill some jugs, I think.
[21:37]I mean, it was, I will not lie to you that it was not heartbreaking.
[21:40]It completely, completely was.
[21:42]But like, I had to, you know, I had a book deal and I had to write a book, you know, it was my job.
[21:47]So I think, you know, that was the other thing.
[21:49]is like, I needed to complete the job that I had with contractually obligated to do.
[21:55]And I was like, I want to do, I want to make, I want to write the book that they want to publish.
[21:59]You know, no, I get it, I get it.
[22:02]But I'm sorry.
[22:03]But I'm glad you, you worked through it.
[22:05]And, you know, writing novels, I feel like I've talked to so many authors.
[22:09]And it seems almost impossible to do without writing to other, at least to other novels.
[22:15]Like, practicing.
[22:17]It's, it's so counterintuitive because it takes so, so long.
[22:21]Right.
[22:22]It's not just like doing a round of baseball in the backyard or something.
[22:24]And you practice and get better.
[22:26]You have to, like, complete it.
[22:28]But then you have to start over.
[22:30]So I don't know.
[22:31]I think it's, you have to be really committed, which you know.
[22:34]Yeah, it's true.
[22:35]But I do think it's funny, like, knowing that you can do it.
[22:38]Like, it's kind of like, I don't know.
[22:39]Maybe like, running a mile or something.
[22:41]Like, once you do it, you're like, oh, I can do this.
[22:44]So just writing that novel, even if it's not the novel, you end up publishing.
[22:47]You know, like, I can complete this extended story.
[22:51]I know how to, I can't, it's in me to do it.
[22:53]And that, to me, like, the first novel that I wrote when I was in grad school,
[22:57]but again, not published, like, getting to the end of that and knowing I could do it,
[23:01]I was like, oh, I can't do this, you know.
[23:03]And that's actually the fact feeling in some ways.
[23:05]What happens to it after doesn't take away from it being a novel.
[23:11]You've still written a novel.
[23:13]Whether it gets published commercially or self published or never sees live day.
[23:16]Like, you still did the thing.
[23:18]So that's pretty cool.
[23:19]Yeah.
[23:20]And then last, what, when you're not busy writing and working,
[23:23]what do you, what do you, what do you do?
[23:25]Um,
[23:27]a good question.
[23:28]I like to eat.
[23:29]I like to drink wine.
[23:30]I have a young child.
[23:31]So a lot of my time has, like, spent watching Bluey and, like, building fourth set of pillows
[23:36]and, like, picking up very small rocks.
[23:39]But she's a real joy.
[23:42]So she's two years old and that's been, like, a great, you know,
[23:47]like, watching her grow and learn in the past couple of years.
[23:50]It's actually been really, really interesting and fun.
[23:52]That was a part of having a kid that I didn't really, like, realize.
[23:55]I didn't realize, like, how interesting they are.
[23:58]And like, how just watching them develop and learn, like, how cool that is.
[24:01]So I really love that part of it.
[24:03]And like, watching her, you know, acquire language and sort of, you know,
[24:07]both answers and now she can, you know, tell me that she's magically turning me into a cat.
[24:14]It is.
[24:15]It's like you're putting your mom through scientist brain and, like,
[24:18]watching her as, like, a little experiment unfolding, right?
[24:21]Yeah.
[24:22]Exactly.
[24:23]I love it.
[24:24]Awesome.
[24:25]Well, this is so fun, Miriam.
[24:26]We have so much in common.
[24:27]This is so, like, this whole love of publishing and writing and books.
[24:30]Yeah.
[24:31]And so many other things that you said.
[24:32]I'm like, hi.
[24:33]Me too.
[24:34]Anyway, it was really nice chatting with you and feeling the sort of, like, kindred energy out there.
[24:39]But anyway, thanks for coming.
[24:40]Like, guys.
[24:41]Yeah.
[24:42]Thank you so much.
[24:43]And congratulations on your book, too.
[24:44]It's a huge accomplishment.
[24:45]Thank you.
[24:46]Thanks a lot.
[24:47]All right.
[24:48]Take care.
[24:49]Bye-bye.
[24:51]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:54]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:59]Also, sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com.
[25:02]And sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:06]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[25:10]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.