Jennette McCurdy, I'M GLAD MY MOM DIED
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[1:29]Jeanette McCurdy is the author of the memoir. I'm glad my mom died
[1:33]You may have seen that I posted about this book on Instagram at zibi Owens because I loved it
[1:39]I read every word. I was obsessed. I was highlighting. I just it was really really interesting
[1:45]Jeanette McCurdy starred in Nickelodeon's hit show iCarly and it's spinoff salmon cat
[1:50]Which by the way my teenage daughter watched many episodes of and in fact
[1:55]Started the show by saying quote her as well as in the netflix series between in 2017
[2:00]She quit acting and began pursuing writing and directing her films have been featured in the floor to film festival
[2:06]The salute your shorts film festival short of the week and elsewhere
[2:09]Her essays have appeared in half post in the Wall Street Journal
[2:12]Her one woman show. I'm glad my mom died had two sold out runs at the Lyra Hyperion Theater and Hudson Theater in Los Angeles
[2:20]She hosts a podcast called empty inside which has topped apples charts and features guests
[2:25]Speaking about uncomfortable topics. She lives in Los Angeles
[2:29]Welcome to net. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books to discuss your amazing memoir
[2:35]I'm glad my mom died
[2:37]Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you
[2:40]I have to say so I have four kids and I was holding this book
[2:43]I always read right before they go to sleep
[2:45]So this was my you know bedtime reading a few nights ago and I started it
[2:48]And I was sitting there reading and they were like they looked at the title and they were like
[2:54]They're like that's so mean
[2:57]It's funny to hear kids being horrified by it because often my experience has been that mothers are horrified of it
[3:03]And sort of like how can you say that about your mother, but it is a title
[3:06]I I'm aware that it's that it I'm aware of how it comes across and I also
[3:12]Know that it's a title that I wouldn't have named the book if I didn't mean it sincerely
[3:16]And if I didn't feel like I earned it in the writing of the book
[3:18]So I hope that that comes across anybody who who reads it
[3:21]I hope it makes sense to them by the by the end of the book and maybe sooner
[3:24]It makes sense to me. I read every word of this book
[3:27]I was like hanging on your every words
[3:29]I found so many parts of your journey just utterly fascinating particularly obviously your relationship with your mom and
[3:35]Even though you say you're glad that she died the complexity of your relationship is laid out on every page
[3:41]The parts where
[3:43]Obviously she was sick for a long time and that is so hard to deal with loving someone who is in a prolonged illness and
[3:49]All of the stress that comes with that when their quality of life is so impaired especially towards the end but the back story of your relationship and you're
[3:58]Realizing how things were as you looked at them again as an adult
[4:03]Well, you know, I'm feeling in all the stuff you should be saying
[4:05]It's easier for me. I'm like yeah, cool
[4:11]It just that you know sometimes you don't realize in the moment that the person who's supposed to care for you
[4:17]The most is maybe not treating you in the best way for you and it's hard to realize in the moment because you have nothing to compare it to
[4:22]So you have all that mixed with a mom with an illness for a long time
[4:26]It's very hard that was so much on your shoulders from such a young age. Would you write about so beautifully?
[4:32]Thank you. No, I think it's impossible
[4:35]To face that kind of a reality of oh this person who's meant to be my sort of protector may in fact be my abuser
[4:42]I think that's as a child
[4:45]Facing that reality would be against your survival instinct
[4:48]You know there's that need to survive that need to cope and so I think you know my experience certainly was that I just
[4:55]Would lived in delusion and lived in well my mom wants its best for me
[4:57]And I just suppressed any thought that I had that didn't agree with that narrative that I have of her
[5:02]That I had of her which was just on that pedestal
[5:04]So I of course wasn't aware of all of that the mental gymnastics that I was doing at the time
[5:10]but in retrospect and through a lot of therapy and and recovery processes
[5:14]I was able to kind of recognize oh that's what was happening
[5:17]That's what was going on that my entire childhood and even adolescence and even early adulthood
[5:22]And it was a tough reality to come to terms with it was very very
[5:27]Challenging because because it sort of meant reorienting my in my lens that I viewed the world in like everything was oriented around
[5:35]What would mom want and what does mom expect of me and what are mom's goals and moms needs and mom mom mom?
[5:41]And to say oh wow that okay, I need to take a step back from that figure out what I want
[5:44]And what I need separate from my mother who who had a lot of a lot of really
[5:50]Destructive needs to both herself and myself that it was it was very daunting
[5:56]It was very daunting and very exhausting, but I'm I'm happy to have done the work and to be I think
[6:02]You know never fully on the other side of anything like losing a parent and all the complications that come with that
[6:09]Dynamic of the relationship aside, but I do feel for the most part on the other side of it
[6:13]And I'm really relieved about that
[6:16]What I think you did so successfully in the writing of the story is we went along with you on the ride right so
[6:22]So even though things jumped out at me the way you wrote about it was like okay that yeah
[6:27]And then we would take showers and she would give me exams and when you read it
[6:31]You're like wait. What did she say like what what kind of exam?
[6:34]So the reader you take the reader along under like with the innocent eyes of you as a child and it isn't until later
[6:41]When we go through it with you when you're in therapy and some you know the doctor
[6:46]Kindly points out like you know that maybe that's not
[6:49]However, everybody's mom is that they don't let them shower by themselves till they're 16 17 years old
[6:54]And you realize it and then we're along with it with you
[6:57]So it's almost like you're just taking us through this grueling process and then
[7:02]Like coming out the other side with you. It's very it's it was like very emotional that whole journey
[7:07]You did a great job with it good. I'm so glad it resonated with you truly that that's like that's that's amazing to hear
[7:13]I I'm glad you mentioned this sort of taking you through the present moment of my childhood because I
[7:20]First of all, I just find it more entertaining
[7:22]I guess from a very just like frank and standpoint
[7:25]I just think it's it's it's more entertaining to be
[7:29]Really experiencing the eyes of a child and we can all
[7:32]Relate with that and we all know
[7:35]What being a child kind of entails
[7:38]So that was that that was important to me to be entertaining
[7:40]But then also I find that when I write from where I'm at now about my past
[7:45]I feel like my instinct would be to get too wistful
[7:48]Kind of like poetic
[7:50]I think it's too easy for things to get a bit more glossy
[7:53]And I think there's something about the the delusion of who I was as a child in the delusion that I was living in that's that's
[8:00]Funny and both and more striking. I think I think it hits a little harder
[8:03]I hope it hits a little harder. But yeah, that's what I certainly hope you also did an amazing job
[8:09]And I really you know tip my hat to you and I I'm not just saying this
[8:13]I interviewed tons of people and you know
[8:16]You're the way that you dove deep into your eating disorder history and
[8:21]all of showing the underside really of phlemia and what it can do and
[8:26]The scenes where you have like vomit on your arms and you know
[8:29]You're showing us like this is not glamorous like
[8:33]Being a celebrity with an eating disorder is not a walk in the park. Thank you very much
[8:37]Right, this is you show the underside of fame you show the underside of
[8:41]living with something that takes over your brain really and
[8:45]Is so destructive and again
[8:48]It's like so powerful to see you come out the other side. There's a chapter at the end
[8:52]I think it's like chapter 82 and I literally was like screenshotting pictures
[8:55]Because I have a friend who struggles and I was like
[8:58]I want to send her this whole chapter
[8:59]I'm actually just gonna send her the book because that because then it became
[9:01]I was like wait, but this is so perfect for her to and this and this so anyway
[9:04]Whatever else in her the book, but you know if I could just read maybe a paragraph from this chapter if that's okay
[9:10]So it's about your relationship with the scale and even just this one paragraph my scale
[9:15]It's cold and heavy. Well, okay two paragraphs. It's cold and heavy in my hands
[9:18]I walk slowly with it because I'm stalling
[9:20]I've gotten rid of it before seven or eight times
[9:22]But every time I go right back out the next day and get a new one so far
[9:26]I haven't been able to get through 24 hours without getting a new one
[9:28]But I'm hopeful that this time might be different maybe this time since I'm making it more of an occasion
[9:33]Since my getting rid of it is my gift to myself from my 24th birthday
[9:36]I'll be able to get rid of it for good my scale has defined me for so long
[9:40]The number it shows tells me whether I'm succeeding or failing whether I'm trying hard enough or not whether I'm good or bad
[9:45]I know it's unhealthy for anything to have that much authority over my self-worth
[9:49]But no matter how hard I've tried to fight it
[9:51]I have always felt reduced to the number on the scale maybe because in a way it's easier defining yourself is hard
[9:57]complicated messy letting the number
[10:00]around the scale do it for you is simple, direct,
[10:03]straightforward.
[10:04]Then you say it sounds ridiculous, life beyond the scale.
[10:06]It's so dramatic, but unfortunately true for me.
[10:09]I'm embarrassed that this is my reality.
[10:11]Maybe that's a good thing.
[10:12]Maybe that's growth to be embarrassed.
[10:14]So good.
[10:15]Thank you for reading it.
[10:16]It's like it makes me a bit emotional to hear it read back.
[10:20]It's so, it's so rewarding.
[10:23]It's really, it really feels like,
[10:24]you know that connection of just, I guess just connection.
[10:27]It feels so nice.
[10:28]Thank you for reading it.
[10:29]Oh, you're welcome.
[10:30]You know, candidly, I've been writing about the scale.
[10:33]Since I was 14, I had this essay in 17 magazine with me,
[10:36]literally holding my scale and disgust being like,
[10:39]you know, I can't deal with this.
[10:41]And it's been a lifelong thing for me.
[10:43]And yeah, so with ups and downs and, you know,
[10:48]the part of when you're, when you go through the part
[10:50]where you're like having to track the not tracking.
[10:52]Yes.
[10:53]I spent like seven years in like every single bite
[10:56]was written.
[10:57]Anyway, we've all had our stuff.
[10:59]This article for 13, we were 14, you said.
[11:01]Yeah.
[11:02]I'm so intrigued how you had the wherewithal
[11:04]to write about the thing while in the thick of the thing.
[11:09]How, I mean, that must have been intense.
[11:13]It was intense.
[11:14]It wasn't supposed to be for 17.
[11:15]It was supposed to be my interior thoughts,
[11:17]but my mom found it and was like,
[11:18]you should publish this.
[11:19]It'll help other girls.
[11:20]And I was like, why would I do that?
[11:21]And anyway, she encouraged me.
[11:23]I was like, well, it'll never sell.
[11:24]And then I sent it in and they ran it.
[11:25]And that literally like put me on this whole path
[11:28]because many people responded to the peace
[11:31]and so many girls out there were like, thank you.
[11:34]Like I didn't know because I had gained a bunch of weight,
[11:36]not even a bunch of weight, but like I gained,
[11:38]I don't know, 20 pounds when I was 14
[11:40]when I was parents to worst.
[11:41]And I just made me feel terrible.
[11:43]And I've always, you know,
[11:44]I was just chatting with the girl from yesterday.
[11:46]Our moms are of the like, great fruit
[11:49]for breakfast generation.
[11:50]The like, you know, workaholic, Jane Fonda, non-stop,
[11:55]and I'm still in that camp, right?
[11:57]Like so I really had so much, my mom is tiny
[12:00]and she's adorable and I love it.
[12:01]But it's like, I feel like I could eat her
[12:03]for breakfast at this point, you know?
[12:05]Anyway.
[12:06]And great fruit for breakfast are just the real,
[12:11]like quintessential that era, that generation body,
[12:15]kind of, yeah, they're the flagship body image,
[12:19]kind of, don't come to mind for sure.
[12:23]So in your, like your whole relationship
[12:25]when your mom teaches you calorie restriction,
[12:28]you know, I literally was given like a book of calories
[12:30]to count when I was nine.
[12:31]And I was like, and I still have it somewhere.
[12:33]But yeah, so I get it.
[12:36]Like I, it was a little different.
[12:37]I mean, it was, it was different.
[12:39]Probably because I was unsuccessful.
[12:41]Where is your, hey, where is you succeeded in a way?
[12:45]Like I could not pull it off.
[12:47]I would still get it.
[12:48]Believe me.
[12:49]You're so good at interacting with me.
[12:51]I'm so jealous.
[12:52]I'm kidding.
[12:53]Obviously this is like a sick joke.
[12:55]I'm sorry, that was like making light of it.
[12:56]But you know, there is this like,
[12:58]what can you do to control your body
[13:00]and in feeling so out of control.
[13:02]And I, that's how I found it.
[13:03]So interesting that you said it's actually
[13:07]how you define yourself versus being out of control.
[13:11]It's very different.
[13:12]It's about like identity versus controlling
[13:15]the uncontrollable in a way.
[13:17]Mm.
[13:18]I think both played such a such an integral role
[13:23]in my kind of development of eating disorders.
[13:26]And like it was interesting to me,
[13:28]you mentioned it right after your parents' divorce
[13:29]is when it started for you.
[13:31]I feel like so often when I hear people speak of their experience
[13:35]with an eating disorder or eating disorders
[13:37]that it comes from that right around the inception
[13:39]of the eating disorder was some sort of intense life event.
[13:43]I don't think that's a coincidence.
[13:44]I think that's like pretty commonplace for eating disorders.
[13:49]And it's so, it's so like fascinating to me.
[13:54]It's not, I think fascinating is the right word.
[13:55]Like truly fascinating to me and not a, not a gross way.
[13:58]But like I think there's, I wish there was more work done
[14:03]toward just helping people with eating disorders.
[14:06]I know there's so much work that's being done.
[14:07]And I know they're talked about in such a different way
[14:09]than they were 10, even five years ago.
[14:12]I'm so grateful for that.
[14:13]But I do feel like the narrative that, you know,
[14:16]it's this lifelong recovery process
[14:18]that you can never really get out of them
[14:19]and that they're always kind of gonna haunt you.
[14:21]It sounds awful, you know.
[14:24]It sounds horrifying.
[14:25]Like I remember hearing that when I first entered recovery.
[14:28]My therapist literally being like, you know,
[14:30]the most well-meaning wonderful therapist.
[14:32]He was amazing.
[14:33]Jamie, if anybody's in Toronto, he's based out there.
[14:36]But he said, this is gonna be lifelong struggle.
[14:39]And I thought, well, that doesn't really motivate me much
[14:42]to try and work on cause if I can't get to,
[14:45]I like the idea of being able to get to the other side
[14:46]of something.
[14:47]I like the idea of being able to not have to live
[14:49]with the baggage and just dragging this thing through life.
[14:53]And I say this because I don't feel like I'm there now.
[14:55]I feel I don't have any, I'm not plagued
[14:58]by any sort of destructive eating behaviors.
[15:02]And not even destructive thoughts about eating,
[15:05]like I thought that piece would always be there.
[15:06]I'd always have to keep the thoughts and check
[15:08]and keep, oh, I'm obsessing.
[15:09]Oh, I'm gonna, that narrative is,
[15:12]the eating disorder voice is so dial down.
[15:15]I would say it's near silent in my voice
[15:19]and my head.
[15:20]And I think that's important to share.
[15:22]And I wanna share that for anybody listening
[15:24]and I have eating disorders
[15:26]because I do think recovery is possible.
[15:27]I do think being recovered is possible.
[15:29]I don't think it's something that you have to battle
[15:31]and take with you for your life.
[15:33]And I want that no pun intended weight to be lifted.
[15:38]I don't want that to be something
[15:40]that people carry with them.
[15:42]It's really unfortunate to me.
[15:44]I agree.
[15:44]I feel like alcoholism is presented in the same way, right?
[15:47]It's just each day, right?
[15:48]How many years are you in recovery?
[15:51]Like the paradigm of that to people
[15:52]who are more goal-oriented, I think is incredibly destructive.
[15:57]Yes.
[15:58]Yes, it's hopeless.
[15:59]And I think it can actually lead to more of a spiral.
[16:02]Yes.
[16:03]I think that if there is ever a slip,
[16:04]I think it can lead to,
[16:05]like can think it can quickly lead to a spiral
[16:07]when you're just thinking, well, what's the point?
[16:08]It's always gonna be with me.
[16:09]I'm never gonna get to the side of this.
[16:11]Yeah, how are you with all of that now?
[16:15]Do you feel, how do you label it?
[16:17]How do you identify with it?
[16:18]You know, I'm now like in a different life stage
[16:20]and I'm accepting sort of a larger body than I would like.
[16:25]Do you know what I mean?
[16:26]But it's something that I'm still dealing with.
[16:28]Like, okay, here I am in another close-sized, you know?
[16:31]I don't know.
[16:32]It's just, but I don't have,
[16:34]I've rationalized, like I don't have time to do this.
[16:37]Like I keep finding these programs.
[16:38]I'm like, okay.
[16:39]And then it's like, well,
[16:41]I don't have time to eat like three ounces of steak
[16:43]in an apple.
[16:44]Like I'm not gonna do that.
[16:45]I'm gonna go back to eating my normal food.
[16:46]Thank you very much.
[16:47]I love food.
[16:47]You know, it's not worth it.
[16:49]So it's more like, you know, I don't know.
[16:55]It's always, it's a work in progress,
[16:56]but I don't have an eating disorder.
[17:00]I just am probably heavier than I would like.
[17:03]I would just leave it at that, I guess not it.
[17:05]But I don't, maybe I don't think enough about what I'm eating.
[17:08]I kind of went the other way.
[17:10]You know, when I, you go from being so obsessive
[17:12]and now I'm just like, okay, great.
[17:13]You know, I have like, you know,
[17:15]I have since like here.
[17:16]Take these dark chocolate sea salt caramels.
[17:18]And I'm like, great, I'll just eat these all day.
[17:20]Thank you.
[17:21]That's so sweet.
[17:22]And I'm eating them because he loves me.
[17:23]Yeah.
[17:24]No, I found that a bit too.
[17:26]When I, when I, when I initially felt like recovery
[17:28]was such a, such a stumbly process for me,
[17:31]but once I really started finding my footing,
[17:33]I got several bellies of food.
[17:34]I was like, fuck it.
[17:36]I'm gonna just eat junk food all day long.
[17:38]I'm gonna have brownies and cookies and coke ICs
[17:41]and just like enjoy it and enjoy the food
[17:42]that I'd deprived myself of for over a decade.
[17:46]And it tasted amazing.
[17:48]It was, it was, it was such a,
[17:51]it's so strange for a coke IC to be a healing experience
[17:55]but it was in my case.
[17:56]And I'm at this cool place where it's like,
[17:58]I love healthy food and I love junk food.
[18:00]And I have a very like, I don't know.
[18:02]I can't, can't even literally couldn't even tell you
[18:04]what I ate yesterday, but it's like,
[18:06]I'm sure there was a mix of some sort of salad.
[18:08]At some point, oh, I had pizza for dinner
[18:10]and a salad on the side, I had eggs,
[18:12]like, there's no, there's no rules
[18:14]and it feels, and it feels great.
[18:16]What I'm trying to say is I would like some
[18:17]of your sea salt dark chocolates.
[18:19]I would be happy to share them with you.
[18:20]I can fed extra, I could fed extra to you.
[18:22]They're delicious.
[18:23]You know, you also, and I'm sorry,
[18:27]I feel like it was totally oversharing in this,
[18:29]and it's about you and anyone.
[18:31]Oh, I'm so grateful.
[18:32]I really, I enjoy it.
[18:33]I appreciate it.
[18:34]This is my last thing about food
[18:35]and then I went and went to something else,
[18:36]but this last paragraph,
[18:37]he said, this new relationship to food deeply
[18:39]confuses me, for years I have been in control
[18:41]of my diet, my body, myself.
[18:43]I have kept myself real thin and my body childlike,
[18:46]and I have found the perfect combination of power
[18:48]and solace in that, but now I feel out of control,
[18:50]reckless, hopeless, the old combination of power and solace
[18:54]is replaced by a new combination of shame and chaos.
[18:57]I do not understand what is happening to me.
[18:59]I'm terrified of what will happen when mom sees me.
[19:02]That was at another stage of your journey,
[19:04]but I also thought that was really beautifully written.
[19:06]And then on top of just regular eating stuff
[19:08]and growing up and all the other stuff
[19:09]that the average person has, because you grew up on TV
[19:12]and in such a public eye, you have to contend with that,
[19:17]which is just another level of stress.
[19:19]And you wrote, the kind of fame I have now
[19:21]is causing me a level of stress,
[19:23]I did not know was possible.
[19:25]I know everybody wants it, and everybody tells me
[19:27]how lucky I am to have it, but I hate it.
[19:29]I feel constantly on edge whenever I leave the house
[19:31]to go anywhere.
[19:32]I'm worried that strangers will come up to me,
[19:34]and I get very anxious when interacting with strangers.
[19:36]And then you say, I'm so unimpressed by people,
[19:39]even irritated by them, at times even disgusted by them.
[19:42]I don't know exactly when this happened,
[19:44]but I know it's relatively recent switch,
[19:45]and I know fame had something to do with it.
[19:47]I'm tired of people approaching me, like they own me,
[19:49]like I owe them something.
[19:51]I didn't choose this life, mom did.
[19:55]That was my bitter stage.
[19:57]I think this is good.
[20:00]So, you know, I wanted to, because I think fame is such a, I mean, it's so bizarre, we all,
[20:06]we get it to some degree, but to write about it and kind of reflect on it can sound so
[20:13]windy. And I think I mentioned that at some point, like God, I know why it sounds,
[20:17]because I felt that at the time. I felt like how petulant and annoying and
[20:22]windy to be complaining about this thing that everybody glorifies, everybody romanticizes,
[20:26]and many people, or as just many people romanticize and glorify, and many people want.
[20:32]And how, you know, and I felt, I felt shame from feeling so, I felt ungrateful.
[20:38]I, and I felt the shame from feeling ungrateful for this thing. And then I had the pressure for
[20:42]my mom and then, you know, my mom who loved the fame and really kind of
[20:47]found her worth in the fame. And then that suddenly switched and she started becoming jealous of
[20:52]the fame. The way I see it now is that I think fame drove this wedge in my relationship with
[20:57]my mom because I think fame is the first thing that led her to really understand that she and
[21:03]I were different people. I think we were so enmashed and that she's so found her identity
[21:07]who I was before then. And then when she's seeing me getting my picture taken and she's on
[21:12]the sidelines watching, at first it was smile, big smile, bright sign, your name, be sure to do
[21:16]the curly white, like it was all the, the direction. And then it quickly morphed into something
[21:20]a lot darker where I'm sitting there going like, oh my God, this is, I don't enjoy this, I don't
[21:26]want this. And then I'm looking at her and she's saying comments to me that are very aggressive
[21:30]and jealous. And I'm thinking, I can't do anything right. I, I fought for this life for, for
[21:38]so long for a decade. And I got it and now she's still unhappy. And I think it was so disappointing
[21:44]because in my mind, success or fame would have made my mom happy, would have healed our
[21:50]relationship, would have made my family's life better. And it didn't do any of those things.
[21:54]And yeah, I just, I try, I guess I tried to show that and, and, and also be honest with how
[22:00]wide it sounds at times to be, to be complaining about it. Well, I think there's like, and I'm sure
[22:05]you and your therapist are so familiar with all the research on being a child of narcissist. But
[22:10]you, there is nothing you can do. There was nothing you could have achieved or done to really
[22:15]ever please her because she's a narcissist. Right. So I mean, the fact and she was on so, on such
[22:21]an end of the extreme, like the scene when you talk about, you're getting your first adult apartment
[22:26]and she was like, can I sleep over? And then she stayed for three months. It literally like broke
[22:30]my heart reading that part because I was like, oh my gosh, you know? And, and you're unable to
[22:36]say anything because then she guilt you like crazy. It's this whole vicious cycle. So no matter how
[22:42]perfect you are, it's, it makes no difference. But it's like you still have to try.
[22:49]Yeah, it felt, it felt crazy making and kind of unpacking those narratives in therapy and trying to
[22:54]get to the bottom of them and understand how much they dictated my life and how much that
[23:00]need to be, need to be on, need to be present, need to be perfect, need to be, you know,
[23:05]even just every part of myself was, was orchestrated in that way and kind of
[23:11]understanding how deep that those narratives ran for me was an uncomfortable process. It was,
[23:17]it was definitely not easy. And I think anyone who is the child of a narcissist, I'm sure,
[23:24]unfortunately they can relate and they get it. Because I think ultimately the belief that you
[23:30]are not fully loved by the person who's supposed to love you the most is something very hard,
[23:35]right? Because how can they actually love you if they're not actually, if they don't actually
[23:41]have your best interests in mind? Yes. And you know what, that makes me think of my, my belief
[23:47]was always that I could earn love. That love was a thing that needed to be earned. I didn't even
[23:52]realize that that's how I viewed it for a long time. Of course it took years to really get there,
[23:56]but I thought that it was a thing that you, that you earned by doing well, by being good,
[24:01]by being on, by doing sacrificing everything that you want for the other person. And by navigating
[24:07]their moods every second of the day and surrendering your entire identity to somebody. And if it's
[24:12]not all of those things, it's not love. And I'm not worthy of love if it's not all those things.
[24:17]I don't deserve love if it's not all those things, which is mind fuck. It's really, it's intense,
[24:25]for sure. Well, I will say in having done research on this and like a million other things.
[24:29]Children of narcissists have a strong tendency to end up with partners who are also narcissists.
[24:34]So just put that on your radar screen. Keep that in your back pocket where what is worth?
[24:39]I think I've already dated a few of them. Yeah. I'm like, maybe I'm too late on this, but you know,
[24:44]just throw it out there. Is your experience, are you child of an artist or are you comfortable
[24:50]sharing that? Are you? I'm just, I'm an armchair psychologist essentially. I love it, love it.
[24:58]Anyway, how did you write this book? What was your, like, how did you do this? Did it all just
[25:03]come pouring out or did you give yourself a time limit? Did you know it was going to be a book?
[25:08]I know you mentioned writing earlier in your life that that's actually what you wanted to do
[25:11]from a young age and it was completely ignored. So when you actually sat down to do this,
[25:16]how did you do it? It started, I guess, in the pretty traditional sense with a book proposal.
[25:20]So I'd written kind of two essays on my life. One was from me in the point of view. The proposed
[25:27]essays were when my mom teaches me calendar restriction, that essay. And then one that sort of became
[25:33]various other pieces, which is me kind of at like a teen choice kid choice. Yep. A tent with a
[25:39]therapist included those in the proposal and fortunately sold the book. And then the, I was so
[25:46]surprised at like the deadlines come so quickly. It's like, no, I just sold the book and they're like,
[25:51]okay, it's coming out August 9th of next year. I'm like, whoa, this is, it's moving so fast,
[25:55]which was very exciting and, and I think and, and, and accelerating and motivating.
[26:00]I started out with a goal of a thousand words a day, bumped it up to 1500, then bumped it up to
[26:03]2000 once I really kind of like got in a groove, but wanted to start out gently. And my initial,
[26:09]I don't do a ton of outlining, but I do just kind of like, I consider them, well, my, my
[26:14]editor considers them vignettes versus chapters because some of the, some of the vignettes in the book
[26:18]are as little as a page. So I kind of mapped out, I know I want to cover this thing and I want to
[26:23]kind of cover this thing and just kind of a few words of whatever the topic was for that
[26:27]specific vignette. And then I did a first draft and then filled in a lot of blank. So would
[26:32]add vignettes. Oh, this, not in a chronological way at all. I go, oh, I think there's some,
[26:37]there needs to be something between this and this. This doesn't quite make sense. I need to connect
[26:40]the tissue there. And I think I went through about a dozen drafts over the course of a year
[26:48]and four or five months and was just very in it. I laughed a lot while writing and I cried a lot
[26:54]while writing it. It was a true healing process for me. And I'm, I'm really grateful that Simon and
[27:02]Schuster believed in me. It was a big of my editor, Sean Manning, like he, he was amazing and
[27:07]give the most incredible notes. And really, I think understood my voice. I think it would have been
[27:11]so easy. And I was scared of this of like sending in a proposal of what I want it to be and then having
[27:16]an editor come on board and be like, actually, maybe let's tone this down a little bit. Let's make,
[27:20]let's make this have more of a heavy hand in what or let's, let's have this piece be more
[27:26]amplified in the book because we want to show the eye like I was very concerned about it becoming
[27:31]something that it wasn't that wasn't truthfully what I felt was the most important piece
[27:36]in our relationship with my mom and that story. And, and I'm extremely grateful that my, my editor
[27:42]was so supportive and, and literally every note that he sent in made the book, I think, so
[27:48]much better and never once lost, he never once lost sight of what it was and he was really helpful
[27:53]in guiding it. It's on to Sean. It makes all the difference. Yeah. So are you, I hope you're going
[27:59]to keep writing. Are you going to try a novel or anything? Or yeah, I'm working on novel right now.
[28:03]And we're going to novel in a collection of essays and kind of alternating with each of them,
[28:08]which has been, it's been really fun because I, that way I don't get burnt out,
[28:12]follow one of them. I can kind of shift gears. I can pop out an essay in a couple days and then
[28:17]oh, I'm more excited by the novel right now. So I can then go back into that and being able to
[28:21]switch gears has been like super fun. It's been very fun. I operate the same way. I can't like just
[28:27]do one thing. Like I need to, I'm working on a novel that's coming out in 2024 and I had a memoir
[28:31]just that just came out this month. It's called book, book ends and memoir of love,
[28:37]loss and literature. Okay. I'll get it. I'm happy to send it to you or whatever. But a lot of these
[28:42]themes are in the book, PS. But in working on the novel, I literally spent the other day and I was
[28:48]just like, I could not do this all day every day. Like I, I need all the emails. I need like
[28:53]getting up and running in round and the kids and like, I don't know why, but like my brain works
[28:58]that way for whatever reason. It sounds like yours does too. Yes. Yes. I don't, I don't quite
[29:03]understand it. I like assigned it. I'm like, maybe it's because of the chaotic upbringing I was in
[29:08]that I kind of need a little bit of chaos in order to create a minute, a little something, but
[29:12]yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that is exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, at least I'm not alone
[29:16]in that. I would love to read your novel also. Do you know, do you have a date when you're,
[29:22]oh my gosh, I'm still writing it, but it's coming out in the summer of 2024.
[29:25]It's great. Awesome. When does your novel coming out? I don't know. There's no, there's no date.
[29:31]Oh, sorry. I'm running long. I don't usually ever do this, but okay, lots to discuss.
[29:35]Thank you so much for coming on. I really loved it. Thank you so much for having me. I truly
[29:40]enjoyed this, this talk with you. It was really fun. Me too. Yeah. Hope to stay in touch with you.
[29:44]Okay. Take care. All right. All right. Bye bye.
[29:48]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[29:53]follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens and at Moms. Don't have time to read books. Also sign up for
[29:58]my newsletter at zB Owens.com.
[30:00]And sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:04]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[30:05]in fact, Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[30:08]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.