Judy Goldman, CHILD: A Memoir
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
[0:10]It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
[0:18]Their book their life and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself
[0:24]Although I wasn't when I started this podcast and you can get my new memoir book ends
[0:29]A memoir of love, loss, and literature wherever books are sold starting July 1st and my children's book prints is charming
[0:36]You can learn more about me at Zivi Owens.com
[0:39]But really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do
[0:43]Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the zcast podcast network
[0:49]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well
[0:58]Judy Goldman is the author of child a memoir
[1:01]She's also the author of seven books three memoirs two novels and two collections of poetry
[1:06]Her new memoir child was named a Katie Couric must read book for 2022 actually
[1:12]It was named up by me
[1:13]But anyway, her first memoir losing my sister was a finalist for both
[1:18]S.I.B.A.'s memoir of the year and forward reviews
[1:21]memoir of the year
[1:22]She received the Sir Walter Raleigh fiction award and the Mary Ruffin pool first fiction award as well as the top three prizes awarded for the best poetry book
[1:30]By North Carolinian and silver fish review presses Gerald cable prize
[1:35]She received the Hobson award for distinguished achievement in arts and letters the Fortnaw writer and community award for outstanding
[1:41]generosity to other writers and the larger community the Irene Blair Honeycut lifetime achievement award from central
[1:47]Piedmont Community College and
[1:49]The Beverly D. Clark author award from Queen's University
[1:53]Her work has appeared in USA Today
[1:55]Washington Post real simple lit up southern review
[1:58]Gany's for a review Kenyan review crazy horse a higher-view Shenandoah prairie schooner
[2:03]And other and elsewhere she lives in Charlotte North Carolina with her husband
[2:07]They have two married children and four grandchildren
[2:10]Okay, so we'll just like jump right into it Judy. So I got to know you
[2:15]I think I do not reach out to you like randomly or did you reach out to me after I read your book about your husband
[2:21]reached out to me. I did, right?
[2:25]Yes, that was the highlight of that year
[2:30]Really out of the clear blue sky you reached out to me and then I have
[2:35]And then I was afraid that when I saw that mostly you interview
[2:39]People who have a book coming out not one that's already been out
[2:44]I thought oh that's not really fair to them because my books already been out
[2:49]And so I wrote to Chelsea and said wouldn't you rather wait till my new book is coming out rather than my
[2:54]Oh book then I was sorry. I did that
[2:58]I'll turn that fine
[3:02]You know to be honest when I started my podcast
[3:05]I was asking people who I'd always wanted to talk to authors who I admired for a long time
[3:11]And it never occurred to me that they wouldn't want to talk unless they had a book coming out
[3:16]So I found that to be the craziest
[3:18]Response, but I would get in touch with their publicists
[3:21]And I'm like oh can I interview someone sound they're like well
[3:24]They're you know, they're not their next books not to you out till bubble out
[3:27]I'm like what does that have to do?
[3:29]Well, you know, that's why I was so mad at myself because it wasn't that I wanted to wait
[3:35]I was afraid that I was deceiving you somehow that I was making you think that that book was new when it wasn't that
[3:43]That's what I explained to Chelsea
[3:45]It didn't matter to me, but I thought oh everybody she's interviewing has a book forthcoming
[3:52]And I thought she thinks that my book is forthcoming
[3:55]No, no, I knew I founded it
[3:56]I knew I read I founded it in a bookstore and I was like oh this looks great
[4:00]And I started reading it and I was like oh I'd love to talk to her
[4:02]So in my perspective, I like talking to authors about their books. I don't care when the books come out
[4:08]But I have found
[4:10]On the author side and now actually as an author like it's so helpful to do things around the release of a book
[4:16]As you will know that that's been sort of where this podcast has gone
[4:20]But I never intended it to be like a pub day podcast like
[4:25]So I don't know I if that's interesting. I understand that well, I'm happy to talk about any book
[4:33]Let's talk about child first because it's coming so what is the pub day and tell them you know
[4:38]Yeah, okay pub date is Macy. Yeah. Okay. I'm not waiting coming up
[4:43]So Judy in the book you say I'm 80 years old
[4:47]It's finally time for me if I'm not going to tell this story now
[4:50]What am I going to tell it which is really impressive?
[4:53]I'm so many fronts because it would be so easy obviously just not to tell it
[4:57]So and I see why obviously now having read it why it's such a compelling story
[5:03]Why this relationship was so important to you?
[5:06]The story what you discovered at the end or like kind of what you put to and to together and realize and all this stuff like
[5:12]But why why had it been sort of not haunting us the wrong word
[5:16]But why don't you tell us the little about what child is about child and memoir and
[5:21]Then why why did it
[5:24]Swirl around in your head for so long and why now and all that good stuff. That was a lot of questions
[5:29]Okay, good. So all right first. I'll tell what it's about. It's the story of
[5:34]Matty Cole the black woman who worked for my family
[5:39]lived in that was the term then helped raise me
[5:43]the
[5:44]unconscionable
[5:46]scaffolding on which that relationship was built and
[5:50]The deep love
[5:52]But it's also the story
[5:54]of
[5:55]Matty's child who was left behind to be raised by someone else
[6:00]And I think that when you know what the book is about you can understand
[6:06]What a risky subject that is. I mean here. I am
[6:11]A privileged white woman
[6:13]Writing about her black maid. I mean who in the world would do that
[6:19]I mean I have to be crazy to write a book about that subject. It is so tricky right now
[6:26]So my hope is that
[6:29]I've examined the subject that I've
[6:33]explored how
[6:36]It's a lovely
[6:38]Relationship in an unlovely
[6:41]Context and why am I writing it now? That's okay turning 80
[6:48]That big number. I mean it's gigantic to me, but whatever age you are is gigantic to you because you know
[6:55]I mean it's the old issue that I've been
[6:59]I did pretty stunning
[7:01]But when I was approaching 80 I thought
[7:04]If I don't tell it now
[7:05]I'm not gonna tell it
[7:07]And I really want to
[7:09]Write a book about Matty
[7:10]I want to honor her in that way
[7:13]And that's what it feels like to me
[7:14]So
[7:15]And also
[7:17]I have to say another thing
[7:18]I am such a slow learner and a late bloomer
[7:21]I did not learn until I was working on my second memoir
[7:27]I mean my sixth book
[7:28]So I should have learned it before then
[7:30]I'm not I'm not trying to impress you with that
[7:33]I'm trying to say look how long it took me to learn something
[7:37]I learned how important reflection is in memoir
[7:41]Interpreting those memories
[7:44]And once I learned that my agent really is the one who helped me learn that with my last memoir together
[7:51]That you mentioned to me earlier
[7:53]Once I learned about reflection, once I learned about analyzing memories
[8:00]What do I know now that I didn't know then when I was a child?
[8:04]Then I felt I could write this story
[8:07]Because I could give it its due
[8:09]Interesting
[8:11]You know one of the one of the pieces of the story that I found really interesting
[8:16]Was the relationship between Matty and your mom
[8:19]You know you say many times like yes, of course
[8:23]I mean one of you know Matty was working for your mom
[8:26]But they were also roommates and they shared so much and they shared such a deep love for you
[8:32]Which kind of makes people family right people who just mutually love the same
[8:37]Person like that and who share a life
[8:40]I mean they they shared a whole life and and a shorthand for everything and I don't know
[8:45]I just that image you had of the two of them sitting at the table
[8:48]I feel like you had some image or that they would talk about things or maybe I made that up
[8:52]I think you had an image right. Oh, I think you're right, right? Okay
[8:56]Yeah, what I love that you just said. I just want to say it to myself so I can remember it
[9:01]You just call them roommates
[9:04]And that is so perfect
[9:08]I'm gonna use that
[9:10]Go for it. Take it
[9:12]But it wasn't interesting relationship because
[9:16]Mother called Matty Matty
[9:20]Matty call my mother Miss Peggy
[9:23]So it's not even I mean my mother paid Matty to work for her. It was a financial arrangement
[9:33]So I saved it. They were best friends because that's what they said
[9:39]But it throws a little light on that relationship to ask the question
[9:45]Would they have been best friends if Matty were not working for my mother employed by her?
[9:52]Would they have met?
[9:54]They've even met not then
[9:56]Right
[10:00]on where you were living, there was, I couldn't believe how many segregated places you remember.
[10:06]I mean, for me, this is like ancient history. When I can't believe anybody, it's like in the
[10:11]history books, this level of, I know it, I know logically it wasn't that long ago, but
[10:16]that is interesting what you're saying. It is history to people your age.
[10:22]Absolutely. And I'm not that young. I mean, I'm 45.
[10:24]You know, you're mad to children. Yeah, it was what we accepted as normal,
[10:34]but it was not normal. You know, I mean, first of all, Maddie was this wonderful cook,
[10:42]so she was famous for fried chicken, fried flounder, squash casserole, biscuits,
[10:51]her inventive recipe of pineapple pie. I mean, I don't know anybody who makes pineapple pie,
[10:58]right? But so she would make these wonderful meals. And my family, my father, my mother,
[11:06]my brother, sister and I, would sit around the table eating that food. Where was Maddie?
[11:14]She was in the kitchen at the little round table next to the windows eating her dinner.
[11:21]Alone. And that was okay. Well, you also say how later you would beg her to sit with you,
[11:29]and she would refuse and say, no, no, no, like just there was nothing you could do to convince her
[11:34]otherwise. Exactly. You know, that, that I think I mentioned this in the book that we don't even
[11:41]understand how deep separation goes and how deeply those of us who are separated hold on to
[11:51]that separation as a pattern, as something familiar. We know it. It's okay. It's what we do.
[11:58]So Maddie felt comfortable with that because it's what she knew, but that was a
[12:05]fair for her to feel comfortable with that. You know, I'm still, I'm still like processing
[12:10]what you wrote in the book and what you, what we were just saying now about loving someone who
[12:14]works for you because I, I, like we're all people underneath our jobs. Like, I very much love
[12:24]people who have worked for my family or who, like, I love some of the people on my team right now.
[12:30]I really do. I love them. Like, you know, maybe they don't love me, but like, I certainly love them.
[12:37]I don't know. Maybe it doesn't go both ways, but I mean, I feel like I've loved people I've
[12:41]worked for also. So I don't know. I don't know if it's easy to, I don't know if you can separate it
[12:47]just because of the payment structure. I don't know. It's complicated. It's very complicated
[12:54]because it's the difference. The people who work for you, Zibi, the people on your team choose
[13:00]that life. Maddie had no choices. A young black woman in the 1940s, uneducated, very little
[13:10]was open to her. She had no choices. And I think living with my family and working for my family
[13:19]gave her, it didn't, that did not give Maddie choices really, but it gave Maddie choices for her
[13:27]child. It meant that her child could go to college. It meant that her child could get a degree
[13:33]from college and then a master's. It meant that Maddie's granddaughter's all three of them could go
[13:39]to college and get masters. So those were the choices that employment gave her in a world of
[13:48]no choices. And that segregated Jim Crow world of the South, which is so foreign to somebody your age.
[13:56]And did you grow up in New York? And to someone who grew up in New York, that was so not your
[14:02]lies, the life that I led. Well, I also, you know, I feel like there are a lot of people who grew
[14:10]up that way who are not open to re-examining those relationships or find nothing wrong with it
[14:18]at this stage. You know, or, you know, I mean, people are all across the board on this
[14:24]stuff. Exactly. And, you know, I can feel what you just said inside myself because that's
[14:32]my biggest fear with this book. I just figured it out. What about this book scares me so much? And
[14:39]I just figured it out the other day and you sort of touched on it just now. I'm so afraid that
[14:46]other white, southern women, my age, who grew up like me, will think I'm on their team. You know,
[14:55]will think they'll say to me, oh, we had a Fannie Mae. We had a woman, even the wording of it.
[15:07]And they'll think that we're partners in this. And I so want to make sure that I'm not only
[15:17]glorifying Maddie, which I really want to do. I wanted to write this book. I wanted to tell the world
[15:25]about the wonderfulness of Maddie Culp. But I also, I don't just want to glorify. I also want to
[15:31]to vilify. I want to vilify the segregated world that she and I lived in. Do you see what I'm saying
[15:40]about my fear? And I don't want to hurt someone's feelings because they say to me, you know, oh,
[15:47]we haven't made and we treated her like family. I don't want to insult them because that's their
[15:54]context. That's their experience. That's their perception. But I do want to separate myself
[16:01]from that unexamined lies. Yeah. Who makes me exhausted to think about it?
[16:08]I could live in and take a nap right this minute. Well, you know, this is what,
[16:17]I mean, this is what writers have to do. You have to write the story that you need to tell.
[16:21]And whether or not the right people read it or if they don't examine it properly or if
[16:28]you get criticized in some way for, you know, the book was, you know, it is a dance, right,
[16:35]to artfully describe these relationships and your thoughts and feelings about it, about it,
[16:44]and you know, about a cultural sort of institution that was, you know, of a time and place,
[16:51]and you brought almost like a compassionate, objective view of something that you were just
[17:00]born into, but you didn't take for granted. So that's, you know, aside from you being a different
[17:06]person altogether, there's not much more you can really do. Aside from not being you,
[17:11]which you are. So people are going to be mad at you for being you and being in your family
[17:18]and whatever, like, well, you can't do anything about that. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're absolutely right.
[17:23]And I mean, when I teach writing workshops, the line that I always make sure to say is you have
[17:31]to write about what keeps you up at night. Right. Right. I mean, you write out of your obsession.
[17:38]And if the subject doesn't scare you, then I don't think you're doing it right. I mean,
[17:45]you're not revealing. You're not unmasking. You're not laying bare what there is to lay bare.
[17:52]It has to scare you. So I take it as part of the package. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that it's not
[17:59]there. Oh, look, we have a guest. My dog. She just merges her way in whenever. Sorry. This is my
[18:08]dog thing. Her name is Nia. Oh, what a pretty name. Hey, Nia. Wait. So how did you get into writing
[18:16]to begin with six books? You know, where did it start? What, like, what was the first project
[18:21]like inter, like, what was that? Tell me a little more about you're getting into it and how you
[18:26]ended up here. Well, first of all, I started so late. I really did. And I like to say that because I
[18:33]think it in, it gives other people encouragement to start late. It's okay. You don't have to start
[18:39]writing when you're 20. You can start when you're 40, which is when I started. And I started out in
[18:45]poetry. I loved poetry. I had written poetry since I was in the third grade that I saw myself as a poet
[18:53]from the time I was eight years old on. So then I after both my parents, both of my parents
[18:58]were going through the process of dying when I was in my 30s. And there was really no template
[19:04]for me to follow there. So I don't know. I say I take to my typewriter instead of taking to my bed,
[19:11]but I could have taken to my bed. It was such a terrible time. I started writing poetry. That was
[19:17]what saved me. So once I turned 40, both of my parents and my husband's mother had died,
[19:23]three of them all together. And I just, I suddenly was free of all that sadness and all that
[19:30]loss. I still felt the loss, which is what propelled my poetry, but I was free from all that
[19:36]suffering. And I started writing poetry and had two books of poetry published. And Zibi, this is
[19:44]the worst strategy. I mean, nobody follow my strategy because as soon as I started learning something
[19:50]about poetry, then I switched to fiction. And then I had two novels published. And just as I
[19:57]was beginning to learn something about writing fiction.
[20:00]I switched to memoir and then now this is my third memoir coming up and it's
[20:06]where I'm staying. memoir is what I was meant to write I think at least it's what
[20:12]I like to write. So that's all my history but it's skewed because it started in
[20:19]my 40s rather than in my 20s when it starts for most people. Actually I was
[20:24]just talking to somebody today I can't remember anyway I was just talking about
[20:28]how I feel like most people I interview are 40 and up and actually with
[20:32]Susan Cain who wrote bittersweet and she was asking is that because what I
[20:36]is that because that's those are the books that I'm drawn to or by authors of
[20:40]that age and I was like I don't really don't think so because thinking about
[20:43]some of these bestseller lists and obviously there are young people but I
[20:47]just feel like there's so many more people who are writing in there who
[20:50]start writing in their 40s and I and I was saying and I believe there's
[20:55]something that gets sort of fully baked by them that there's some
[20:59]perspective that's gained that makes the writing that much richer something
[21:05]happens in your 40s. I'm gonna write an article like welcome to your 40s you
[21:08]might have reading glasses but on the other hand you'll probably say your first
[21:11]thing I can get oh oh the thing about 40s is sort of sacred in my family I grew
[21:18]up my whole life I heard from my mother the 40s of the best years of your life
[21:24]all my life I heard that and then my mother said that too. Yes she really? Yes
[21:29]that is so interesting. I mean I was like a 10 year old kid waiting to turn 40
[21:36]I mean I just thought I want you to be 40 and go through what my mother is saying
[21:42]and she's right because it is a particular time in your life but I mean the
[21:48]other thing is my first novel was published when I was 58 you know and so I
[21:54]think that gives us all hope that we just pursue what we want to pursue and
[22:00]and those of us who get to write we're just lucky because we spend our days
[22:05]doing what we love doing. Yes how great is that? Pretty great and tell me about
[22:12]your teaching. I teach creative well memoir writing workshops really and I just
[22:18]teach randomly not on a regular basis not in a college or university but
[22:24]there's a wonderful organization in Charlotte Kyle Charlotte lit and they're
[22:28]just everything they're sort of like the loft and Minneapolis you know it's
[22:33]that type of organization they just are everything for writers and I teach a
[22:37]lot for them and that's where I was teaching last night so and it's always sort
[22:42]of exciting to talk to a room full of people who are writing memoir you know
[22:48]there's something sort of shiny about that for me because we started a
[22:54]deeper level together I think. Yes. Well you're you're already geared up to share as
[23:01]opposed to the boundaries that many people put up right away. Yes it's not
[23:06]cocktail party. Yeah. So what's your next memoir about? Are you writing one already? I am
[23:14]I'm working on something and I mean of course I have no idea whether it's
[23:18]going to work on that I have no idea but talk about writing about what keeps you
[23:23]up at night I'm writing about turning 80 I'm writing about aging I have this
[23:30]theory and I don't know whether it's original or cliche I'm not sure which it is
[23:38]but my theory is that I'm still the 25 year old newly married woman with my
[23:48]adorable handsome husband trying to decide can we afford to buy a house or do we
[23:56]rent another apartment you know housing living where are we going to live it's so
[24:02]important at that stage well here I am 80 and what do all my friends talk
[24:09]about where do we live next doing you've been to a retirement community do we
[24:14]stay in our homes housing is the subject again so what I do in my book about
[24:20]aging is I'm comparing stages of life and showing the parallel between those
[24:29]stages and where I am right now oh I love that so we'll see I love writing it
[24:37]I think it I gave it to my son in order to read and my son just called me yesterday
[24:42]after having read he's 49 and he said mom your first memoir was about your sister
[24:50]your second memoir was about your husband your third memoir was about Maddie this
[24:57]memoir is about you oh and he said I think it's your gift to us so nice I think
[25:07]it's worthwhile to write oh I want to read it it sounds amazing thank you thank
[25:13]you it's this doctor reference season can again this book bittersweet which you
[25:17]should read it's really interesting about you know sorrow and joy and loss and all
[25:22]this like great stuff and there's a quiz in it and one of the questions is how
[25:27]many times a day like do you get goosebumps at least twice a day and how much
[25:31]do you agree with that and originally I I was like oh no I don't get goosebumps twice
[25:35]a day maybe I get them like twice a week I was like since I took the quiz I'm
[25:38]like I'm gonna keep track I just got goosebumps twice just from you talking
[25:42]about that book yeah so I've had goosebumps any four times so anyway I just wrote
[25:49]down bittersweet I'm gonna come out yes yes I'll check anyway yeah I love books
[25:57]about loss that's my subject yeah one of the women in my poetry group used to call
[26:02]me the high priestess of loss but it's it's a subject I'm interested in
[26:08]me too me too I think we're all on some level right like I don't know maybe
[26:13]not we're all I am though then you are that's good I believe the loss that you
[26:18]and Kyle experienced during COVID and that just kills me every time I see
[26:25]something about that when you mention it and you showed it's her name Susan your
[26:30]mother-in-law yeah Susan's that's how that's impression it made on me that I
[26:35]remember her name from your post when you posted her photograph she was
[26:41]darling mm-hmm she was a dream mother-in-law yeah I didn't even have her as a
[26:47]mother-in-law for that long because I only met Kyle you know we were only married
[26:51]we've been married now five years so yeah there's only a three-year three-year
[26:56]term but that's as long as you need with somebody like that to establish that
[27:03]kind of connection probably oh we didn't even eat that like yeah yeah yeah
[27:08]definitely well Judy thank you oh I should ask what's your advice for aspiring
[27:14]authors what's my advice I think so much that I want to say I guess it's just
[27:20]Woody Allen's two words you know and that's a little tricky too but um show
[27:29]up you right I mean we just have to show up we just have to do it we can't
[27:35]wait for an invitation to write nobody nobody is gonna say to us hurry up Judy
[27:41]write that book I'm dying to publish it I'm dying to review it I'm dying to you
[27:46]know fill in the blank none of us or most of us don't have that invitation
[27:50]waiting out there so we just have to sort of take the book out of horns and do
[27:55]it and show up and write and read and read you're right let's change
[28:02]how many of your authors have said read a lot a lot a lot when I first
[28:09]started interviewing people I was like huh interesting I've never really
[28:12]associated my reading with my writing
[28:17]oh my gosh I've learned so much I've read like all these books
[28:20]anyway thank you for coming on thank you for waiting I'm so
[28:24]excited we finally got to discuss child although I feel like we barely got
[28:28]to scratch the surface but I just think it's so neat that now I know this
[28:31]woman Maddie really well I know her her family her life
[28:36]is now like a part of my consciousness and that's the magic of writing so
[28:41]thank you exactly the magic of writing thank you Zibi I
[28:44]really really thank you this was such a highlight
[28:48]but thank you thank you to I care yourself and feel better
[28:53]thank you you too bye bye
[28:56]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books
[29:00]don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have
[29:04]time to read books also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[29:08]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every
[29:11]other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the
[29:15]Sound Editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[29:18]this fantastic intro and outro music