Ibram X. Kendi, HOW TO RAISE AN ANTIRACIST
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[0:58]Dr. Ibram X Kendi is the author of How to Raise an Anti-Racist.
[1:03]He is one of America's foremost historians and leading anti-racist scholars
[1:08]He is a national book award-winning and number one New York Times best-selling author of five books for adults and three books for children
[1:15]Dr. Kendi is the Andrew W. Mellon professor in the humanities and the founding director of the Boston University Center for Anti-Racist Research
[1:22]He is a contributing writer to the Atlantic and a CBS News racial justice contributor
[1:27]He is the host of a new action podcast Be Anti-Racist in 2020 Time Magazine named him one of the
[1:34]100 most influential people in the world
[1:37]He was awarded a 2021 MacArthur Fellowship
[1:39]popularly known as the genius grant
[1:42]He is the author of the black campus movement
[1:45]Which won the W. E. B. Du Bois prize and stamped from the beginning the definitive history of racist ideas in America
[1:51]Which won the national book award for nonfiction in 2016 at 34 years old
[1:56]Dr. Kendi was the youngest ever winner of the NBA for nonfiction
[1:59]He grew up dreaming about playing in the NBA and ironically he ended up joining the other NBA
[2:04]Dr. Kendi also produced five number one New York Times bestsellers
[2:08]How to be an anti-racist and international bestseller has been translated into several languages and made several best books of
[2:14]2019 lists and was described in the New York Times as the most courageous book to date on the problem of race in the western mind
[2:23]He's also published many academic essays and journals and op-eds numerous
[2:28]periodicals including the New York Times the Atlantic
[2:32]Salon time and many more
[2:35]He has commented on the series of national international and local media outlets like CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC
[2:42]Own, BET and Sirius XM
[2:45]A sought-after public speaker, Dr. Kendi has delivered thousands of addresses over the years of college's university's bookstores
[2:51]and more places
[2:53]Dr. Kendi strives to be a hardcore anti-racist and a software vegan
[2:56]Dr. Kendi is also the author of Goodnight Racism
[3:00]which was also published at the same time as how to raise an anti-racist
[3:04]Dr. Kendi lives in Boston, Massachusetts
[3:06]Welcome Dr. Kendi. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss
[3:11]how to raise an anti-racist and also goodnight racism
[3:15]Thank you for having me on
[3:18]I have to tell you I read this book to my kids and my daughter was like but no one's racist
[3:25]why would like what's it and I was like that's so great I was like well you know
[3:29]some people used to be in the olden days people did feel badly and they're like but
[3:33]they're just people just have different skin tones now and I'm like well
[3:38]like learning moment here which you would have lots to say about so anyway if you were in that
[3:44]moment with my daughter what would be the perfect thing for me to have said?
[3:48]Well actually oh first that's one of the cuties about books is it not I could spark those
[3:55]those conversations with with our children and I would have actually asked her so what is it
[4:01]what do you think it means to to to be racist? I did ask her that I did ask her that
[4:07]so she knew the definition you know yeah and and and really sort of
[4:12]just talked through the the definition especially you know she says that and and then start
[4:19]maybe providing examples of people or instances in which people may be in which people may
[4:25]be the definition may apply or it may not apply right and you know to really get her or to get
[4:31]a child sort of thinking which also is a great critical thinking which you know is great
[4:37]to sort of prevent prejudicial. Okay well I didn't mean to start by totally putting it on
[4:43]the spot but anyway now that we've worked our way through that your book was not only really
[4:50]helpful and instructive and interesting thought-provoking all that good stuff but
[4:54]there was so much memoir in this story there was so much personal experience we've
[4:59]throughout which I found so compelling and the story that you talk about with your wife and your
[5:06]pregnancy and her pregnancy and having to stay in the hospital for all those months which I had
[5:11]twins so I relate to the bedrest thing no fun at all and the fear and the NICU like all of the
[5:17]things that you went through and then how you could use every moment as an example of something
[5:22]else through when your daughter was born and the play group or daycare that she went to I mean
[5:28]everything in your life and then your cancer which I didn't I mean that was horrible I'm so sorry
[5:33]you had to go through that too I mean I feel like I went on this whole journey with you and
[5:37]it's good which I wasn't expecting I thought it would be more like a nonfiction I just didn't
[5:42]expect to find so much of you in your heart and soul versus your academics or thinking in this
[5:48]book and it was just to make it was so why did you do that tell me about it tell me how this
[5:52]whole book came to be well I think that to be anti-racist and even to raise a child to be
[6:02]anti-racist is not a static sort of thing it is indeed a journey and it's a process it's a behavior
[6:13]it is a reflecting on the times in which we made mistakes and we need to say things better or do
[6:20]things differently and I wanted to sort of convey that movement that sort of process and I also
[6:27]particularly as a parent who also studies racism and talks and engages with people all the time
[6:36]about being anti-racist I wanted to talk about how this was difficult for me too and the difficulty
[6:43]and the fear that parents face is normal like you know and it's even something that that I had but
[6:53]but that shouldn't prevent us from having these tough conversations with our children and protecting
[6:59]them by teaching them about racism. Interesting well throughout the book you gave many examples
[7:07]and health care for black women and pregnancy and statistics related to you know fetal health and
[7:13]all of these things like everything related to something personal in your story and even your
[7:20]missed diagnosis at first I loved that story when maybe you could tell it probably better than me
[7:25]of when the teacher called home and said why is your why is your son not talking and I guess your
[7:30]dad was like what are you like what are you talking about are you crazy you talk all the time like
[7:34]what's going on and how like learning disability speech impediment all this stuff tell me about that
[7:40]moment and how that's an example like a learning moment that you shared in the book as well.
[7:44]but in my brother I believe what he was in fourth grade I think 10 years old he was not speaking
[7:52]that much in class and and we suspect he wasn't speaking that much in class because the teacher
[8:01]wasn't respecting him was was thinking that there was a problem he potentially was was
[8:07]she was thinking that because he was he was black and and what we find according to studies is that
[8:14]when young children are experiencing bigotry they typically it typically leads to sort of depression
[8:22]it typically causes them to close up it certainly doesn't allow them to be expressive and so we
[8:28]suspect that's what was happening in that class and for I believe seven and a half years my
[8:34]brother had been diagnosed with being what having a learning disability and was going through
[8:43]special education classes as a result but that teacher we suspect was very pivotal in that school
[8:53]actually trying to change his diagnosis to what's known as intellectual disability now or what was
[9:00]then mental redarvation which was a more serious and stigmatizing you know sort of diagnosis and
[9:07]and we think it was all because of their relationship right because he was responding and
[9:13]and it just goes to show how particularly for kids with with with disabilities who who may not
[9:19]have the ability to express what's happening to them we have to protect them too we have to actually
[9:26]be even more protective you know of them because they are facing they're facing racist
[9:31]discrimination and I wanted to really document how all different types of kids are facing it so if
[9:37]you're if you're a teacher who is white and you believe that you know white people are naturally
[9:44]smart and you have a child indeed has a learning disability you can't even fathom that because
[9:51]the child is white so you're not going to allow that child to get to get services and help that
[9:57]that child would be you had so many
[10:00]amazing passages in the story of your life basically. Oh tell me about more
[10:06]about when your daughter started daycare and she would only play with the white
[10:10]doll and what that brought up with you and your wife and you know all of that
[10:14]and I would start it with you guys laughing and and she kept playing with the
[10:17]doll and yeah so if if I think if many parents particularly if many white
[10:26]parents fear their child like one day saying something that's racist and
[10:34]sort of embarrassing and bringing shame to the family then what many black
[10:39]parents of black children fear is their child sort of internalizing the
[10:47]idea of white superior and I when my child was a little over one years old I
[10:54]I remember going to pick her up from daycare and she was playing with a
[10:57]white doll and you know I put the doll to the side and she sort of cried but
[11:02]she came and we went home the next day was harder to get the white doll out of
[11:07]her hands and each successive day that week it got harder and harder to the
[11:11]point of which he had an all-out tension tension and didn't want to leave the
[11:16]doll and didn't even want to come home which was different because whenever we
[11:20]would arrive she'd be happy to go with us so we were like what's what's going on
[11:23]here like it's just a symbol that she is is you know is is is internalizing
[11:30]this this idea of white superiority and we didn't know but what we found out the
[11:36]fifth day which was the day that both of us came and she loves it when both of
[11:40]us come to pick her up so she actually put the doll aside and came and and
[11:45]hugged us we feel like we want at least one round and after that I actually went
[11:51]around to the toy chests in the daycare and saw that every doll that they had
[11:57]looked white so she didn't even have another option and I used that you know
[12:01]in the book to talk about that for even a one-year-old the environment that
[12:06]were raising them in the dolls that were choosing for them the books that
[12:10]were choosing for them even the people that were choosing to be around them
[12:14]are making a difference or could be making a difference and is shaping them
[12:20]to understand like who they value and they may not even have a choice in the
[12:23]matter which in that case happened to to my daughter we should allow our
[12:29]children to to to young children to see the beauty of the human rainbow by
[12:33]allowing them to see to see us all very true so did you what did you end up
[12:38]doing did you get the daycare anymore dolls or what did you they I let them
[12:43]know okay and they made a change she still go there now she's too old now
[12:49]she's she she continued to go there they made the change I think they
[12:53]recognized you know that that was okay okay making changes this six months of
[13:01]chemotherapy followed by surgery that you went through and having to recover the
[13:06]scene at home when you got back and you were on the couch and your daughter was
[13:09]so sad and crying seeing you laying there in your robe tell me about tell me
[13:14]about that moment and and how it feels to parent through pain of your own and
[13:19]fear for your own mortality I mean that you had stage for cancer I mean that's
[13:23]so terrifying I'm so sorry I had to go through that yeah it was so after the
[13:28]surgery and I you know I came home more after not only the surgery but also
[13:33]you know we can the hospital you know I came home and of course I had
[13:38]advantages on my my belly and you know I'm sitting on the couch with a
[13:44]role in my sort of chest open so my my daughter came and can see the bandages
[13:49]and she started looking at the bandages I believe she was about two two and a
[13:54]half years old and she just started you know crying and I was of course
[13:57]asking her you know what's wrong and what's wrong and you know she wouldn't
[14:01]say and eventually you know I asked her I was like do you want to have do you
[14:07]want some bad bandages like daddy and you know she she stopped crying and
[14:12]started sniffling and said yes and so my my partner Sadego was there when in
[14:18]got her bandages and and she started putting them on her sort of belly in the
[14:23]same place that that I had mine and really for the next few months there was no
[14:30]gift she liked more than bandmates and in a way we healed together and that
[14:36]that story I sort of shared in the context of empathy and how study show that
[14:42]you know two years old our kids start understanding and learning empathy they
[14:47]could feel what other people are feeling but but studies show that we also have
[14:52]the capacity to either nurture empathy or sort of block its growth and to
[15:00]nurture empathy is to nurture a child who can look at someone who doesn't look
[15:05]like them who doesn't worship like them who doesn't live near them and when they
[15:10]see that person hurting they hurt that's the type of anti-racist empathy we have
[15:15]to nurture and our children do you think yeah my daughter is so sensitive that
[15:20]the other day she said I sometimes I don't like to draw the number eight
[15:23]because an H just seems sad so I start feeling sad for the eight and crying I'm
[15:29]like oh my gosh I can't that is great I think you imagine if all humans were
[15:35]like that oh my gosh we had that if we felt that deeply yeah yeah imagine even if
[15:40]all my kids felt like that I would never get out of the house it's like impossible
[15:44]okay so in the beginning you set up this your whole construct which many
[15:49]people were already I'm sure familiar with from your other book which everyone in
[15:54]the world probably has at this point which must make you feel really good but
[15:57]how it's not enough to not be racist you have to actively be anti-racist which
[16:03]is something different altogether so for anyone who's not as familiar with
[16:07]this could you just explain what the difference is like take a scenario and
[16:11]explain like if you are being racist not racist and anti-racist in such and
[16:17]such a setting like and what you should really be doing or what the main takeaway
[16:21]is for people who want to raise anti-racist children well I mean if you I think
[16:26]the starting point of any serious conversation about race and racism should
[16:31]being with a racial disparity so you know black people being just
[16:36]unfortunately impoverished in this country the question is why and so some
[16:41]people who are going to express a racist idea to explain that disparity by
[16:47]saying black people are poorer because they're lazier they don't work as hard
[16:51]there's something wrong or inferior about black people to take an anti-racist
[16:57]position is to say that the cause of that disparity between those groups and
[17:04]not when I talk about individuals but between groups is this history and even
[17:09]the presence of a racist policies and in practices that are causing these
[17:14]disparities but going back to the first person who would say well it's because
[17:19]black people are lazy when people point that out the typical response that we
[17:24]have is no no I'm not racist so somebody says you know you just set a racist
[17:29]idea the typical response is just to deny it but there are times in which
[17:34]someone who's striving to be anti-racist expresses a racist idea and they have a
[17:39]different response and that is to to think about it reflect on it and admit you
[17:44]know what yes that was a racist idea and I'm gonna change and I'm gonna be
[17:49]better and that's another reason why and how to raise an anti-racist I wanted
[17:53]to really show the mistakes that I made as a parent even that some of the
[17:59]mistakes that my parents made in terms of raising me and certainly teachers so
[18:03]that people can see people making mistakes in growing and developing and
[18:08]changing and that's really the process of being an anti-racist. Did you see
[18:13]yourself as a child becoming this advocate and and lightning rod and I don't
[18:21]even know the right words expert I guess that's a better word to complete
[18:25]expert and changing world thinking around this topic like would you have
[18:29]predicted that when you were eight like what do you want to be then? No I would
[18:34]not have predicted that if it was up to me I'd be when I was eight years old I
[18:38]would have been preparing to play with Steph Curry and NBA finals. You know I
[18:45]certainly even by the time I got to college I wasn't necessarily you know
[18:51]thinking that this route you know was was was was for me but I think once I
[18:57]really started studying just the vast amount of inequities and injustices and
[19:03]violence and and you know young and old people thinking there's something wrong
[19:09]with them as or superior about them as opposed to the problem being more
[19:14]policy and structural than the more I gravitated to understanding it to
[19:19]wanting to speak about it to wanting to abolish. Did you find this path easy or
[19:24]hard to achieve like because you've essentially created a niche if you
[19:29]will right that's like and you are also you know historian of African history
[19:34]and you've written like what five bestseller I mean what can you not do at
[19:38]this point? Did you did the path seem clear to you as you were going through it
[19:43]or was it difficult to sort of pave the way? It was difficult and it you know
[19:47]remains no difficult you know even now because I think my work has sort of
[19:52]broken through and it's reaching everyday people different backgrounds
[19:57]different ideologies.
[20:00]you know, they're people who would rather things to remain as they are. And so instead of engaging
[20:07]with me and engaging with the work, they just sort and misrepresent the work and then attack it.
[20:14]And how do you respond to that? I can't like respond to something I didn't say or don't believe.
[20:19]So that's what's been probably the hardest, you know, part. But I also know that there's a
[20:25]history to this. And you know, as a historian, I know that during the enslavement era, slave
[20:31]holders, even Jim Crow segregation, Jim Crow segregation is literally legislative for ignorance.
[20:38]And not just ignorance of a Black people, even ignorance of many white people, and to keep us
[20:44]divided, to keep us thinking that we're each the problem as opposed to those who are bullets.
[20:51]So this is, you know, heavy intellectual critical thinking, what do you do to get away from this?
[20:59]Like, do you still play basketball? Like, what do you like to do when you're not engaged in this?
[21:04]How do you like release like out, have fun, whatever?
[21:08]So I think I've hung up my sneakers. So I don't play basketball as much anymore. But I, of course,
[21:14]watch sports. I watch basketball and baseball and football. I read a ton, you know, and I think
[21:23]reading for me is probably the most peaceful thing that I do. You know, I, of course, exercise,
[21:29]try to enjoy family and friends. And, you know, I'm my wife. She, she's always interesting
[21:37]when whenever public light someone sort of says that I'm so serious because privately,
[21:43]she says I'm a goofball. And I, you know, I mean, life is, it's certainly a life one that
[21:50]where we should create joy. But it's that joy and that closeness to joy that I have
[21:56]that I want everyone to have all the more. So I want to ensure that no one is being blocked from
[22:04]that joy by the injustices of our society. And when you read for fun, what do you like to read?
[22:09]Like, what's something that you've read lately here?
[22:12]So I tend to read books on race or racism or American history or, you know, or novels.
[22:21]You know, I'm reading the book called Torn Apart by Dorothy Roberts, which is a really
[22:29]serious investigation of the, it's known as the child welfare system. And, and even though this
[22:35]system is supposed to protect children and families, you know, Dorothy Roberts, Professor Roberts,
[22:41]actually finds that it's not, it's actually doing the very opposite. And she calls for a complete
[22:48]overhauling of it. It's not elimination of it. So it's, you know, I'm obviously, because I'm thinking
[22:54]a lot of our children now, those types of books that I'm reading.
[22:58]Do you let your daughter watch TV, YouTube? Where are we on the Instagram? What, where are we on the
[23:04]screen stuff with her? So she watches this TV from time to time. But, you know, obviously, we
[23:10]don't want to just sit around from the TV. If, if possible, mean, and, and I think that sometimes
[23:16]that's all we can do is parents, especially during the pandemic, you know, but we try to, to,
[23:22]to move her away from that or to, to have constructive means. Right. I think my kids are like
[23:28]the biggest YouTube addicts. I, it's embarrassing at this point. Yeah. That's what my friend
[23:32]wants to be a YouTuber when he grows up these seven. So I kind of think that's a thing, but it's
[23:37]okay. You know, anyway, okay. Well, having written so many books yourself, what advice would you give
[23:43]to aspiring authors? So I would, I would first give aspiring authors the advice that when it comes
[23:54]to the book idea, you know, we have to figure out, you know, what we have to really be able to be
[24:01]extremely self-reflective and self-critical about the type of book that, you know, that we,
[24:09]based on our talents, could produce. And that obviously the world could, could receive. And we
[24:15]can't sort of land on a book idea and then run with it, even though it may not match our writing
[24:22]style or expertise. And so it's just sort of making sure we're marrying like who we are and our
[24:28]expertise with our book ideas incredibly important. And then I, I mean, as a non-fiction writer,
[24:34]you know, especially I do a ton of research and preparation and outlining before I ever start
[24:41]writing. I personally, once I get to the point in which I'm writing, I want to believe, I want
[24:48]to feel as if literally that's all I'm doing. So I'm not having to think about where I'm going
[24:52]to write. I can just focus on the craft of writing itself. And that helps me tremendously, you know,
[24:59]to actually write, but it just takes a tremendous amount of preparation. And so I would just
[25:04]encourage writers if you want to go down that route to really prepare to write, like anything else,
[25:09]we have to prepare. And then finally, I think there's the process of writing the book. And it
[25:17]is the process of talking about the book. And it's almost like a completely different animal. And
[25:25]this has to take different sort of muscles that we sort of have to have to train us, you know, and use
[25:32]as writers. Yeah. People don't necessarily warn you enough about that. Congratulations. You are now
[25:39]going to be a full-time marketing person. That's your job now. Go ahead and have fun.
[25:44]Anyway, well, thank you so much. I really was quite moved by your book. You're such a good writer.
[25:52]Your story is so powerful. Your ideas are powerful. And it's just, it was just really amazing to
[25:58]get a chance to chat with you and all the discuss all the great things you're doing. So thank you.
[26:02]It's great to chat with you. And thank you for your work that should be really
[26:07]specifically important time. I'm so glad you got this podcast.
[26:12]Thank you. If you want to talk sports that you have to call my husband, but we have something
[26:17]on every night. I was literally just saying them last night. I was like, must be so nice. Like,
[26:21]you can organize your whole life around like what game is on and that there's always something.
[26:25]And he's like, I almost didn't find something tonight. But then finally, I went to this channel and
[26:28]there was this game on. I was like, you know, so I'm so relieved for you. So anyway, all right,
[26:35]well, take care. Thank you so much. All right. Bye bye.
[26:39]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[26:43]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for
[26:49]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[26:54]Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:59]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.