Steve Leder, FOR YOU WHEN I AM GONE: Twelve Essential Questions to Tell a Life Story

[1:39]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. And speaking of books, I have two of my own books coming out this spring and summer. Princess Charming is a picture book, which debuts on April 19, and a memoir of love, loss, and literature comes out on July 1, and it is truly a labor of love. I hope you'll preorder, order, and join me on tour as I go across the country. You can find out more at zibbyowens.com or bookendsmemoir.com. And you can follow me on Instagram at zibby owens because I always post about everything. Enjoy the show. Rabbi Steve Letter is the author of For You When I am Gone, 12 Essential Questions to Tell a Life Story. This is his second time on Mom's No Time to Read Books, and I am so happy to have him back. He is the senior rabbi of Wilshire Boulevard Temple in Los Angeles. After receiving his degree in writing and graduating cum laude from Northwestern University and spending time studying at Trinity College Oxford University. Rabbi Letter received a master's degree in Hebrew letters in 1986 and rabbinical ordination in 1987 from Hebrew Union College. He is the author of five books, The Extraordinary Nature of Ordinary Things, More Money than Living a Rich Life Without Losing Your Soul, and the bestsellers More Beautiful than How Suffering Transforms Us and The Beauty of What Remains. He was on last time for The Beauty of What Remains, which was absolutely beautiful, and I loved it. And I have to just give him a little shout out because in addition to being the senior rabbi of a massive, very highly esteemed temple in LA. He took time out of his day to come to Diesel bookstore where I was doing a little signing for princess charming to come meet me, that was basically the sweetest thing ever. So I am just, he's a great, great guy. Enjoy our talk. Alright. Hi, Rabbi Steve. Thanks for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Last time you were here for the beauty of what remains, and now you are here for for You and I am Gone 12 essential questions to tell a life story. So welcome back. Thank you so much, Sibby. I love talking with you. Oh, thank you. This book was really close to my heart because I have thought a lot about what you call an ethical will. I basically wrote an essay to my kids on Mother's Day as if I had passed away already and what I would want them to remember that day and obviously yours and the whole concept of it is way bigger than that and has roots in religion and tradition and all of that. But I think about doing a project like this often. So why don't you talk about the power of this project, the prompts, how you came to the prompts? It said, you said it only took you fifteen minutes and like thirty years or something like that, which is Right. Exactly. I know you're, you have a journal companion here. Talk about the whole project and and how to inspire people to stop what they're doing in everyday life to to do something like this for when they are gone. Okay. First of all, I read your Mother's Day piece. I thought it was very moving. Oh, thank you. I really hope inspires

[4:49]Steve Leder: all of everyone listening to do the same. Look. Here is what I've learned after thirty five years of gathering with families to talk about a loved one who's died and what I've learned about how much that experience can teach us about our own lives. I've been gathering together with people to try to get my arms around their loved one's story in order to prepare for the funeral, prepare them, and prepare myself to create the eulogy. And what I've learned is that a person's story has almost nothing to do with the facts of his or her life. Know, obituaries tell you the facts of a person's life. I'm interested in the truth of our lives. You know, the fact that I was, you know, in elementary school at Aquila Elementary School in Saint Louis Park, Minnesota, it doesn't tell you anything about me. Not very much. So I devised a series of 12 questions over many years in a very particular order, by the way

[5:48]Zibby Owens: Okay.

[5:49]Steve Leder: To help unfold the truth of a person's life. Now this is important for two reasons. Yes. It is vitally important for our loved ones when we're gone to know our story, to have our guidance, our wisdom, our blessings, our our life lessons, our legacy. Because that's really what they're going to cherish. You know, it's an irony that we spend so much time in our lives working and working and working to make money, to buy things and things and more things. And we work out a very elaborate estate plan. We spend a lot of time and money thinking about who's gonna get what and when. And what I've learned is none of that really matters to our loved ones when we're gone nearly as much as our legacy and our words. It's a very interesting psycholinguistic point I wanna make, which is that the Hebrew word for word and the Hebrew word for thing are the same word. You cannot differentiate between the two. So in other words, from a psycholinguistic point, words are real. Words are tangible. Words create and destroy. They build and tear down. They hurt. They heal. Words are our most powerful legacy. You know, thinking all that stuff is gonna mean something to our loved ones when we're gone. I say it's like trying to give them a picture of food. Mhmm. It's really not gonna nourish them. Our words will nourish them. So this is number one, a plea and a guide for everyone to ask the right questions and answer those questions for ourselves so that we can really bequeath something beautiful and lasting to our loved ones when we're gone. But that's only half the purpose. The other purpose is that when you ask these questions and answer them for yourself honestly, vulnerably, transparently, It's an opportunity for you to hold your life up to the light like an MRI and ask yourself, am I actually living my truth? Mhmm. Or am I just talking about it? You know, it is my life kabuki or real?

[8:13]Zibby Owens: And

[8:14]Steve Leder: this exercise is such a powerful tool, and I see it honestly as part of this great reevaluation that's going on in America right now, which is mostly very positive. In this post pandemic world, a lot of us are asking ourselves, what really matters to me? What really makes me happy? Where have I gone off the path? Where am I not aligned with my truth? And this book is a powerful North Star for all of us. Now these questions you asked about, I joked in the introduction. My editor asked me, you know, how did you come up with these questions in this order? They just they just unfold a person's life. And I answered thirty five years and fifteen minutes. Mhmm. Because these are the questions, as I said, I ask families to help me get to the truth of a person's life. And everyone's life is amazing. Everyone's. If you ask the right questions. So that's sort of the the backdrop of the book. And I really thought about it because in the beauty of what remains, I had maybe two paragraphs on this idea of an ethical will. But that's what every talk show host and podcaster and journalist and radio. That's what they wanted to talk about, was these two paragraphs because most people never heard of this concept.

[9:38]Zibby Owens: You know what what you should do in your spare time? Tell me. Please. Is you should train people to ask these questions and then book sessions where they come to people's houses or they do Zooms and help people through. Because I want to do this, but telling myself, well, I need accountability to do everything. So I feel like if I booked a session with a person, they then I would

[10:07]Steve Leder: do it and you could produce it. Trainers showing up at your door. Right. Yeah. You need like a life letter trainer or something. Yeah. Well, I've been leading ethical will writing workshops all over the country for fifteen years. I know. But you can't you should like, you have to scale it. You like, everybody should do it. There should be you know? Well, my point is same as yours, really. When I was talking to the publisher about this book, I said, you know, we could do a lot worse than start a movement in this country of people creating an ethical will for their loved ones, for themselves while they're living, and for their loved ones while they're, you know, when they're gone. And we all just kind of nodded our heads as in, yes. In other words, Zibby, you're spot on. You are. Now what will evolve from this? I don't know. I'm very hopeful that we will start this movement because I know what it meant to me to write mine for my children. Yep. Without even knowing for certain, I'm pretty sure I know what it meant to you to write that letter that you wrote on Mother's Day. That is a very powerful experience for everyone.

[11:17]Zibby Owens: And and so, yes, you're right. Let's scale it up. Yeah. I mean, not to say that publishing a book is not scaling it. It is. You're like, I guess that's But the I just mean, like, anyway, never mind. Was a it's a silly point. But I know. We can't help ourselves. I know. I know. I can't help myself. I really can't help the same. I'm the same. We're entrepreneurs. We are. In the book, you know, you have this very really emotional visual when you talk about your dad's clothes sort of in a pile in the basement and how even the thrift shop didn't really want the clothes and nobody wanted to take those away. And I've had similar moments in my life going through loved ones' possessions. And you realize like, well, is it just a necklace? Like, I don't even remember her wearing this one, so I'll take the one that I remember seeing her in, but then otherwise, it's just a necklace. Like, it doesn't really matter. It quickly becomes clear that it doesn't really matter what a person has. In fact, I feel like since having to pack up a dear friend's belongings at age 25, whenever I buy anything, I think like, oh gosh. Like, someone's gonna have to pack this up later. You know? Like It's and it's so easy to lose our way because

[12:28]Steve Leder: our the ethos in our culture is buy buy buy buy buy. And it gets easier and easier to accumulate. And, you know, in in the previous book, there's chapter called nobody wants your crap. And the double entendre is intended. It's intended. But, yes, one of the saddest still hard. You know? One of the saddest parts of my father's death was walking downstairs into the basement of their townhouse and seeing his stuff just in a heap on the basement floor, and nobody nobody wants it. And, you know, what do I have for my dad? I'll show you one thing. This is, an old metal measuring stick, and it reminds me of working with my dad on Saturdays when I was a kid fixing stuff. And and it reminds me of of what a straight shooter he was. You know? Just what a honest, transparent guy he was. This is what I have. You know what this is worth in monetary terms? Nothing. But it means the world to me because this represents moments and time, which is really what's precious. You know, I have a friend who's a firefighter. It's like the one Jewish firefighter I know. Actually, know too. Anyway, he's a there aren't a lot of us. He's a member of my congregation. And I asked him one time, his name is Paul. I said, Paul, when people real when their house is on fire for real and they have to make a run for it, what do people actually grab? I mean, what really matters when you've got seconds? And he said, it's always the same thing. People, pets, and pictures. Mhmm. That's a really interesting type of essentialism when you think about it. It's people, pets, and the the images that represent moments in our lives. The rest is just stuff.

[14:38]Zibby Owens: Yep. So true.

[14:41]Steve Leder: And but we don't always live that way. So this book is is, in a way, an exercise for all of us to help us be better aligned with what we really know is meaningful in life. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[17:42]Zibby Owens: I liked in this book, I feel like each time I'm reading your stuff, you're revealing little by little more stuff about like your marriage and your life and not that I'm being like creepy, but I'm just like learning more about you as you go. I love the story of you just knowing that your wife was it was meant to be, and then you kind of loosely talk about your medical issues and, you know, you kind of so tell me about that. How does she like, what are the rules? You have rules? Oh,

[18:15]Steve Leder: that's such a good question, Sveeth. Well, the you know, the first question in the book is what is your what is your greatest regret? Because, obviously, regrets require for us to talk about regrets, it requires vulnerability, and it cracks us open in a way that makes answering the other questions more real. So and it's also our great teacher. So regret was my great teacher when it comes to writing about my family because when I was a younger writer and my first, second books first and second books came out, I got some pushback from my family. They were upset with me. And I learned that before I write about my wife, Betsy, or my kids, Erin and Hannah, or my mother, or my siblings, I need some I need permission and guidelines. I learned it the hard way. But on the other side of that coin is if I am unwilling as a writer to reveal my own truths, then why should you trust me as a reader? Why should you believe I know anything about life if I can't examine my own? And and, really, that's all I know. I think that's all any of us know is is hopefully at least a little bit about our own experience. And and, you know, here's here's you're such a thinker and and believer in writing and the power of the word. So let me share a sort of it's very interesting. The first book I ever wrote is being reissued today along with this new book. And, it's called the extraordinary nature of ordinary things. So it's my first book. It's kind of like early Steve Leader, and this new book is the most recent snapshot. And when I was asked to write the new afterward for this old book, I had to think about, well, how are they the same? How are they different? And and to kind of try to understand my own philosophy of writing. And I here's what I think it is. I think that the particular is ultimately the only thing that reveals the universal. Mhmm. Blake said, you know, you can see the ocean in a drop of water. The ocean is too immense. It's like to me, it's I live in California. To me, I've never embraced the ocean. It's like the tundra to me. It just doesn't mean anything. You give me a trickling river or or a brook, a babbling brook, you know, or or a calm, pristine, mirror like lake. Now now I'm seeing something. So it's almost like physics. You know? They keep discovering new tinier particles. It used to be the z particle, quark, a z particle. I think there's a new one now. But what are you doing when you examine, discover the tiniest particle? You are also examining the thing that is most common to all matter. It's both. It's so particular and yet entirely universal. And and that's how I feel about writing about my life. If you can really get to the deepest subterranean truth of the emotion of what it felt like when Betsy walked in that room, then you have some grasp of love. And so that's how I think about my writing and my and talking about my life, including the difficult parts of my life. My, you know, brief but painful addiction to opioids after spinal surgery, my underlying anxiety disorder, which came out of the basement of my psyche during the pandemic, my wife's two battles with cancer, you know, and what it means. What is intimacy really? You know, the most intimate intimate moment I ever ever shared with Betsy, maybe will ever share with Betsy, was emptying her drains for her after her double mastectomy. That's love. That's intimate. And that's the stuff in the muck of life and love and death. And these are the things that interest me. And I have to start from where is all of this in me before I can evoke anything in you. And it it's it's unusual for someone in my position to to approach things that way, but I just don't know another way. Well,

[22:59]Zibby Owens: I I think it's essential for someone in your position to approach things this way. Have to connect with somebody else. You have to be open. Otherwise, it's like you're not letting the teeth of the zipper connect. You know what mean? It's like Yes. Yes. Otherwise, it's just one-sided. There won't be a real link if half of you I is not coming forward

[23:25]Steve Leder: think that's right. And that's why I said thirty five years and fifteen minutes. Yeah. Because it's that. A friend of mine described my job this way. He said, you have a front row seat to life, which is true, but it's still vicarious. Mhmm. And what I'm interested in is finding the real common denominators for all of us that unites us. And I can only do that if I move beyond what's vicarious from the front row and into my own reality in my own life. And it seems to be working.

[24:03]Zibby Owens: I

[24:04]Steve Leder: I people, you know,

[24:08]Zibby Owens: You're doing okay. I mean Yeah. Think the trick as well stick with it. Yeah. Yeah. I think the trick though,

[24:14]Steve Leder: Zippy, is for it never to become like your shtick or to become gratuitous or a divi You know? It has to be real. It can't you cannot get up there and kind of pretend bleed in front of people all day long because they they know it's it's funny. It's like actors who can cry on cue. It's it's bullshit.

[24:38]Zibby Owens: Yeah. You don't wanna be exploitative with your life and emotions. Or anyone else's. Or anyone Very true. Yeah. Who do you think needs this book the most? Like, in your congregation, people who walk in and out, like, is there is there a certain type of person who is like you're like, they prob maybe the maybe it's the one who doesn't wanna get it, but I don't know. Who what what's your answer to that?

[25:05]Steve Leder: I I'm gonna I'm gonna give you two answers. Okay. Alright? Alright. I'll take them. Oh, okay. One is there's a moment I've I've believe that there's a moment for each of us when we realize in a very visceral way. And I can tell you when it happened to me that we're going to die. We spend a lot of time, rightfully so, denying that reality because we wouldn't be able to be ambitious without it. You know, without that denial, we have to deny death and and shove it down into the basement, or we wouldn't get anything accomplished. What would be the point, really? Right? But there's a point at which, you know, most people think of evolution as a constantly ascending line, but that's not what biologists believe. They believe in something now called punctuated equilibrium. In other words, we plateau and then something happens that punctuates the equilibrium and it shoots us up to the next level from an evolutionary perspective. Like the ice age destroyed the dinosaurs and created a different life on the planet. Right? Yep. There's a punctuation or something disruptive of the equilibrium. Well, there's a point in everyone's life when death disrupts their equilibrium. Yep. For me so my father and I look almost identical. If you saw a picture of him at ten, a picture of me at ten, you wouldn't know the difference. Now keep in mind, I had stood next to more than a thousand dead bodies and families looking at that dead body before it was my turn. A thousand or more Zebi. And to be honest with you, I I could have been eating a sandwich. Just like I was there to support them, but I wasn't feeling it. And then we were in the little room off the side of the the chapel before my dad's funeral, and the the young rabbi walked in to escort. I have a big family to bring us out to look at my dad's body in the casket before it was closed for the service. And I remember thinking to myself, I am I know exactly how that rabbi feels right now, but I have no idea how I feel. And then we walked out there, and I approached my father's body in that casket. And I looked down, and I thought to myself, that's exactly how I'm gonna look when I'm dead. And my son is bending over my casket. I am going to die. I was 55 years old, and I had officiated at more than a thousand funerals. And that moment was the moment that punctuated the equilibrium that moved me from Steve Leader, the rabbi, to Steve Leader, the son, the husband, the father, the brother, the uncle. And I realized, really, really understood, I am going to die. This book is for everyone who has reached that point in life for two reasons, as I said before. One, how do you wanna live? How do you really wanna live the rest of your life? Out of alignment? Or or do you wanna live your truth? And how do you wanna hold and care for the people you love when you're gone? So it's for all of us. And by the way, I know five year olds who have reached that point. Mhmm. And I know 70 year olds who have not.

[28:24]Steve Leder: Right? I remember when I lived in Israel, I went to hear a lecture by a rabbi who was the youngest child to survive Auschwitz. And the first thing he said, he got up there, and the first thing he said was, there were no children in Auschwitz. The moment you walked through that gate, you became an adult. Why? Because that's when those children realized, I'm I'm going to die, and it could be soon. I'm at risk. My parents are gonna die. So now this can be a very depressing thought or, and this is the point of the book, a very powerful and ennobling thought. I'm going to die. Now what? What am I gonna do with this precious, precious gift that I have? And what of this precious gift called my life and my time here on earth am I going to bestow upon the people I love? So it's for all of us who have realized and had our equilibrium punctuated, shall we say. And the other group, and this is counterintuitive, it's for young people who are trying to figure out their lives. I have a 30 and 33 year old. They are trying so hard to figure it out. Do I wanna be more like this group of friends I grew up with? Do I wanna be less like them? Do I wanna live in LA? Do I wanna live in the country? Do I you know, am I ever gonna make a living? Do I love my parents? Do I hate my parents? Do I love my parents? Do I hate my parents? You know, all this dissonance, all this dichotomous tension that comes with growing up in America today in your thirties, in your twenties. This book, if you ask if these kids ask themselves these questions, and they're not kids at all, of course, it's it's a map. It's a road map. And and so it's for those of us who kind of already figured it out and those of us who don't think we ever will. And I know how counterintuitive the latter sounds, but, you know, it's kind of like a therapist in this book asking you the right questions. They don't give you the answer. They ask you the question and then say, tell me more about that. It's true. Right? Yep.

[30:51]Zibby Owens: Rabbi Steve, this was amazing. Laughing, crying, emotions, life, death. I mean, it's only noon in here when we're here. It's 09:00 in LA. It's crazy. Anyway. That's how we roll, Zoe. That's how we roll. Thank you so much. I always know talking to you will make me think and feel. And those are I just love that. And I was sitting here thinking, was like, am I gonna get him to officiate over my funeral? And what you know?

[31:23]Steve Leder: Well, Symphony, I I I hope I hope you're younger than I am. I hope I go first, honestly. I really do. But I wanna say to you, not just on my own behalf, but all of us all of us who are writing to try to make people's lives more beautiful, more meaningful in a world with so much clawing for people's attention. You are you are just an oasis of light and and hope for all of us who publish. And I'm I'm just really

[31:53]Zibby Owens: proud to know you. Aw. Thank you. I really mean that. Thank you. That is so sweet. Thank you. That made my day. Thanks. Okay. Enjoy your publication day. Thank

[32:05]Steve Leder: you, Zibby. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Okay. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

[32:11]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget to

[33:29]Zibby Owens: Follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com, and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.