Charmaine Wilkerson, BLACK CAKE: A Novel
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[0:41]Charming Wilkerson is the author of Black Cake, a novel.
[0:45]She is an American writer who has lived in Jamaica and is based in Italy.
[0:48]A graduate of Barnard College in Stanford University, she is a former journalist whose
[0:52]award-winning short fiction has appeared in various magazines and anthologies.
[0:56]Black Cake is her first novel.
[0:57]Welcome Charming!
[0:58]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Black Cake.
[1:02]Thank you, Zivi, it's great to be here.
[1:06]Amazing!
[1:07]Okay, I'm sure most people already know what your book is about, but if you wouldn't mind
[1:10]describing it for the people who don't, that would be great.
[1:13]Well, to give some context, it's a multi-generational story, so it goes back and forth between
[1:21]the past and the present, but the kernel of the story sort of revolves around Byron and
[1:27]Benny in the present day.
[1:30]Byron and Benny are a brother and sister who were once inseparable, but there's been a
[1:35]huge rift in their family.
[1:37]They haven't seen each other in years and now they're forced to come together because
[1:41]their mother has just died and she's left from this really unusual inheritance.
[1:48]A small black cake, a traditional Caribbean fruitcake, sitting in her freezer.
[1:54]And she's also left in this really lengthy recording on a USB pen drive, hours and hours
[2:00]of recording.
[2:02]And this whole experience is going to up in their lives because they're going to learn
[2:07]that nothing is quite the way they thought it was.
[2:10]And they're already having some issues with their own relationships and identity and
[2:15]their mother basically saying, guess what?
[2:18]My life wasn't quite the way you thought it was.
[2:22]Your life is not going to be quite the way you thought it would be.
[2:26]It's really going to change everything.
[2:28]That's sort of what sets it in motion.
[2:31]It's almost not fair that she didn't get to see the effects of her, of the revelation,
[2:38]of her confession, like what would happen.
[2:40]As a mom, I would want to be there to watch the shock, when they read that letter and
[2:46]found out about their whole family and all this stuff and I feel like she's missing
[2:52]out on it.
[2:53]Well, and she wanted to be there, but there was a problem in the family.
[2:57]So her daughter basically disappeared on family, hasn't been in touch for years and she's
[3:04]meaning the mother, Eleanor Bennett has been waiting for her daughter to somehow come
[3:09]back, waiting for her children to somehow repair their relationship.
[3:14]And she basically decided she's not going to see them again together before she dies and
[3:21]so she fits down to make this recording.
[3:23]It was also sweet how little details like how she called them B&B, which she called them
[3:29]as kids.
[3:30]There's always something to be called your nickname or sort of sinking back into your
[3:36]relationship with your sibling when you were kids, it was just a lovely little addition.
[3:43]And I love nickname, so I love nickname, so I use that a lot in my writing.
[3:48]And I know you've been asked this a lot and it's been, you've written about it a lot.
[3:52]They were like, oh, these articles, but if you could share the inspiration for the story,
[3:56]that would be great.
[3:57]Sure.
[3:58]So there are many points of inspiration I can say that the black cake itself was something
[4:03]that came in later in the process.
[4:05]I was just writing a number of different scenes and I just had this feeling I like to explore
[4:10]issues of identity and concepts of family and I'm fascinated by the ways in which we have
[4:17]our sense about who we are.
[4:19]And then we have the ways in which our sense of identity may run up against the expectations
[4:25]and stereotypes of other people.
[4:27]So I was writing this scene about these teenage girls living in the Caribbean in the
[4:33]1960s and they were different from the other girls.
[4:36]There were strong swimmers.
[4:38]They were obsessed with the sea.
[4:40]They had all sorts of dreams and this dimension in their lives, in their lives really gets
[4:45]them into trouble and also helps them to get out of trouble.
[4:50]But this was really what I was writing when I realized that it was connected to a series
[4:56]of other things that I'd written, short scenes, with other people and I suddenly got
[5:01]way to second.
[5:02]I'm sort of writing about the same family, but in different time periods.
[5:07]And so that was what I was working on and I realized, hey, I think I have a novel here
[5:14]when the black cape sort of walked into the story.
[5:18]And if there's any specific point of inspiration, it's the cake itself.
[5:24]So I did not set out to write a story about a cake or about food or the diaspora of food.
[5:31]But a few years before, a younger member of my family had written me, had texted me on
[5:36]my cell phone to ask me for my mother's black cake recipe.
[5:41]She made an amazing cake, soaked in, you know, fruit, soaked in rum, dark brown, cane
[5:47]sugar, and it was always a special thing, but I was still surprised that this person would
[5:52]even think to ask me for the recipe.
[5:54]And that felt me thinking, say, be about the ways in which we choose to hold certain
[6:00]things closer to our hearts than others, the ways in which family memories and stories
[6:08]again helped to form our identity.
[6:10]So that's going back to that other idea.
[6:12]So I think it was kind of a circle of ideas that came together and the cake just sort
[6:18]of was a bit of glue that focused my thoughts and helped me to start to tell this story
[6:25]about the power of the story, whether it is told or not told to shape our identity.
[6:33]Have there been sort of secrets uncovered in your own family over the years or has this
[6:38]book inspired any to come to the to the fore?
[6:43]Well, it's still early, let's see what happens, ask me next year.
[6:51]But you know, it is early.
[6:53]So, you know, some people have read the book.
[6:55]It is not an autobiographical tale.
[6:59]But without it, the idea of, you know, having heard half fruits from one's elders or having
[7:08]heard one story when you were little and then having heard another when you were older,
[7:13]I would say that is the closest that my own experience comes to reflecting some of what
[7:20]you see in this story.
[7:22]It was probably much simpler than what's going on with Byron and Benny.
[7:26]I simply realized that when I was small, I was too small to hear certain things.
[7:31]And once I was a woman and old enough for maybe my parents to kind of forget that I was
[7:38]all that I've been their kid, they were able to speak a little more comfortably about the
[7:44]kinds of things that we experience once we grow up, you know, in relationships and so forth.
[7:50]So that was the only idea that stuck with me, the fact that sometimes you don't hear something
[7:56]because someone feels it should be concealed or it's just not the right time.
[8:01]But very often you don't hear something because people don't know, or maybe they don't think
[8:06]to share it.
[8:08]And in the story, Black take there are a lot of different reasons why both the parents and
[8:14]the children are not fully sharing the stories of their lives and their relationships and their
[8:21]difficulties. And this creates a lot of misunderstanding. But of course, the big story is really
[8:28]Eleanor Bennett's past and everything that she's hidden for different reasons at different times
[8:35]in her life. But I would say, I don't know if you had this impression, but ultimately it's,
[8:41]she was waiting to set things right. She was thinking she would always, she would, at some point,
[8:48]be able to correct things, set things back on a better track. And so time went by and she was
[8:56]living her life and she was troubled by what she had concealed, but did not feel that she could
[9:03]reveal it.
[9:05]Yeah, that's the thing with secrets. Sometimes you get that you're in so deep, it's hard to find your
[9:09]way out, find the right time. Yes, yes. And then of course people, well, there are issues of privacy,
[9:17]but in the case of this main character, you know, that's really it. She's, she feels that she's
[9:22]made some missteps and she doesn't know how to correct them. She keeps trying. And then time goes by.
[9:29]Well, I also really like how you depict life from the point of view of the child too. And like this
[9:35]loss right right at the beginning, you have the girl whose mother, she's waiting and waiting
[9:40]for her mother and the smell of her kissing her at night. And what did you say like Jasmine and
[9:44]something or the perfume like still lingered and she kept searching for that at night. And year after
[9:49]year would go by, I mean, it's heartbreaking really. It's just like a total heartbreak for this child.
[9:55]And then the ramifications of, of the loss for the.
[10:00]dad having to like pick up the slack and do everything himself and what you do when you are charged
[10:05]with raising somebody and not having your main support I mean these are themes that are so
[10:12]widespread with so much loss and people in these in families that shape shift frequently
[10:18]especially these days to talk more about that. Well you know as we were saying the story goes back
[10:23]and forth between the president and the past so you have these siblings learning about their
[10:27]mothers past as she she's recorded this story she begins to talk about other people and so
[10:36]through these other people we get a picture of what was what life was like for certain people in the
[10:42]story in the 1960s in the Caribbean a little later in the UK and then back in the United States
[10:49]and and what happens is there is this little girl. Covey in the past who yes her mother leaves
[10:57]early on and her father has his own challenges he has issues and he's going to make a series of
[11:05]missteps that will sort of precipitate disaster in this family and I know a lot of people who are
[11:12]not so happy with this guy you know they know he's awful but it's interesting when I look back
[11:18]and look at this character I see someone who's kind of muddling through and who's actually done a
[11:24]lot of kind things for people but he's muddling through and he makes a mess of things and he
[11:29]believes that he has very little choice so you have this young girl who then begins to grow
[11:36]and because she is exceptionally strong physically and loves the sea and has a friend who is
[11:43]the same and then meets this young man who's all for the same she develops the sort of incredible
[11:49]strength she becomes one of the stronger people on the island and that imbues her with a sense
[11:55]of determination and so that will shift her destiny and we go forward in time I don't want to give
[12:03]away too much. No no no don't talk anymore we'll talk about something else so Charmaine how did we get
[12:09]here like where did you start and like where did you grow up when did you know you love to write
[12:14]what did you do before this book like take us back take us through the whole thing oh you don't
[12:19]want to hear the whole life story that I do let's do the abridge let's do the abridge version
[12:26]abridged version because the fiction is better so there are some similarities in detail that
[12:31]you'll notice I'm from New York I move to Jamaica in the West Indies as a little girl and there
[12:38]is no doubt that this story which I wrote this fictional story steals details from some of the
[12:45]things that I experienced even though I was talking about a different time period so you know
[12:51]being in the garden being in the sea the different smells and foods the importance of things like
[12:56]the black cake at certain celebrations like weddings I returned to the US and lived on both coasts of
[13:02]the US and ended up in Italy which is where I am now coming to you from Italy right now and so
[13:10]I've moved around a lot in my life and I come from a family that is multicultural where
[13:17]probably no two or three people have had quite the same upbringing and I think that thinking about
[13:23]these issues of identity and shifting concepts of family and home this kind of thinking has
[13:30]always stayed with me and has influenced a number of things that I've written I mean I've written
[13:36]just short stories very short stories but without a doubt you see a lot of that in the novel
[13:43]black cake and I always wanted to write you know I love stories love books always thought I'd
[13:50]write but it took me a while to get around to it does that sound familiar I mean I don't have a
[13:57]house full of young kids as you do as a good excuse but you know I was doing other things and had
[14:03]the good fortune to work in news and communications writing and reading other kinds of writing
[14:10]and reading until finally I thought no no no I need to do this wow and do you have another
[14:18]project already in the works like did some other story call you already I'm working on something
[14:23]else and then little stories I'm always writing in short bursts so I have a theory the word
[14:29]files filled with things which could be alternately considered drivel or short stories in the making
[14:40]that's I mean I feel like it applied to basically anybody writing anything right it could be
[14:44]literally nothing or it could be the best thing ever who knows what happens to it right it's
[14:49]whatever where the canvas takes us absolutely which is why they say don't ever throw anything
[14:56]out keep it yes good very good advice very good advice what do you love to read by the way I
[15:04]read everything but I do enjoy stories that have multiple points of view that tell a story through
[15:15]different characters eyes and so to give you a short list of completely different stories I've
[15:22]always loved the joy luck club by Amy Tan multi-generational mothers and daughters family secrets
[15:30]and misunderstandings I love beloved by Tony Morrison which has a very strong voice in terms of
[15:38]language use of language it's an unusual way to tell a story again multiple points of view I love
[15:44]George Saunders is Lincoln in the Bardo which was in theory about Abraham Lincoln losing his
[15:53]son but really was a series of stories from all of these different people who lived in his times
[16:00]and what they had gone through so I like those kinds of stories and I like Elizabeth Strauss
[16:07]all of stories all of Kitchridge all of again where you're in a room with one person let's say
[16:13]you're in a room with you Zevi and then all of walks in and then I'm down at gas station and
[16:19]all of walks in and so we're seeing the story of this woman but beginning with these other scenarios
[16:27]so these are kinds of the stories the kinds of stories I love to read but more recently I've
[16:33]read the final revival of Opel and Neve by Donnie Walt from which I love I loved reading a little
[16:40]hope by Ethan Joella very quiet storytelling with all of these lovely sensory details
[16:48]and a really interesting book that I've just read is Brown Girls by Daphne Palazzi Andriadis
[16:55]in which she's telling the story of a number of different girls growing up in Queens New York
[17:01]and then they go on to become women go on through their lives but she's always
[17:05]speaking from the first or some plural point of view we we we and yet she manages to separate out
[17:13]their stories and then bring them back together so I love that I love good stories but also
[17:19]interesting language yes well those are all fabulous books now tell me the story of getting picked
[17:26]to be a read with Jenna pick what was that like how did you find out well I heard from my editor
[17:33]and it was very exciting and I heard just before it was announced actually I'm not sure
[17:39]we're supposed to say that but you know it was a surprise because then of course Jenna
[17:46]gets on the tube and just said it and it's been amazing because he's someone who reads
[17:53]what she claims she needs something like a hundred books a year and a wide variety of books
[18:00]and I've really loved some of her choices so it was really quite an honor it's exciting
[18:05]really exciting so what advice would you have for aspiring authors well I think of two writers
[18:12]who are very different whose advice I really like one of them is Julia Cameron who has just
[18:20]reissued her famous the artist's way I just interviewed her you did yeah did I miss that one I
[18:27]don't think it's come out I don't think we've released it yet but yeah she has a new book at so
[18:32]it's exciting yes so I'll let her speak for herself with basically one of the things that she
[18:37]encourages people to do and they don't have to be writers but it's for writers is to just sit
[18:44]down with a notebook you know like this first thing in the morning and just write by free hand
[18:49]your long hand we say and just go just write anything it could be a shopping list it could be
[18:54]something that's worrying you it could be an idea of an image that might end up in a story or in
[19:00]a piece of visual art and I was doing that for years not knowing what I was doing and I kept
[19:06]thinking I'm not very good at keeping a journal I'm always going on blah blah blah and then
[19:12]in the next moment I'm writing something that might be a story when I read her book I thought
[19:17]you know that's okay if it gets you writing later you can take your thoughts and focus them
[19:23]and work on a specific piece the other piece of advice and so it was really the advice is to
[19:30]sit down and write and don't worry about it write first ask questions later and the other piece
[19:35]of advice is from the writer Anlamat who wrote the book you see you see and of course the book is
[19:44]very funny I think the best thing the book did for me was it made me laugh it made me laugh out loud
[19:51]at a time when I was being challenged and because I still needed to give myself permission
[19:58]as a mature adult with two careers back
[20:00]kind her to just write fiction, you know,
[20:04]because if you write for someone else,
[20:06]you already are given the purpose.
[20:08]You're already given the legitimacy.
[20:11]But if you write something from the heart and head,
[20:14]well, it's a bit of a gamble.
[20:15]And so she just talked about a number of different dimensions,
[20:20]but essentially, again, just putting it down,
[20:23]just putting it down.
[20:24]And it made me think of my own life as a marathon runner
[20:27]in the past, how often people would say,
[20:30]oh, my goodness, how did you run a marathon?
[20:33]Yeah, just three miles at a time, actually.
[20:36]You go out and you run.
[20:38]And maybe you go to the gym,
[20:39]and maybe one day you're too tired to run.
[20:42]And then the next time you're running 15 miles.
[20:44]So it's like everything in life.
[20:46]You just keep, you have the idea, go forward.
[20:50]So that's the long, long, long book length advice
[20:54]to writers, just write it down, keep going.
[20:59]Do think about where you're going later,
[21:01]but don't edit yourself.
[21:02]Don't question yourself.
[21:04]Don't doubt yourself.
[21:05]Don't worry about writing a book.
[21:08]Just write.
[21:10]I love it.
[21:11]Thank you.
[21:12]This has been so great.
[21:13]Thank you for coming on.
[21:15]Thank you for your insights and all of it.
[21:17]It's really exciting.
[21:18]Can't wait to see what you do next.
[21:20]Thank you.
[21:21]It's been great meeting you.
[21:22]And good luck with your own books.
[21:24]You have a couple of books coming out.
[21:26]I do.
[21:26]Thank you.
[21:27]Yes.
[21:29]Take care of Sylvia.
[21:30]It's been great.
[21:31]Thank you.
[21:32]Thank you.
[21:32]Bye-bye.
[21:33]Bye-bye.
[21:35]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't
[21:37]Have Time to Read Books.
[21:39]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans,
[21:42]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[21:46]and sign up for my virtual book club
[21:48]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[21:51]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[21:53]for the Sound Editing.
[21:54]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:56]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.