A.J. Jacobs, THE PUZZLER: One Man's Quest to Solve the Most Baffling Puzzles Ever, from Crosswords to Jigsaws to the Meaning of Life
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[0:41]A.J. Jacobs is the author of the puzzler, one man's quest to solve the most baffling
[0:46]puzzles ever from crosswords to jigsaw's to the meaning of life.
[0:50]A.J. Jacobs is the author of four New York Times bestsellers, including The Know-It-All,
[0:54]Drop Dead Healthy, and The Year of Living Biblically.
[0:57]He has given four TED Talks that have total views of more than 10 million.
[1:01]He is a contributor to NPR's Weekend Edition, and writes for The New York Times and
[1:05]Esquire magazine among others.
[1:07]His latest book is The Puzzler.
[1:09]Welcome, A.J.
[1:10]Thank you so much for coming on moms.
[1:11]Don't have time to read books to discuss The Puzzler, one man's quest to solve the
[1:15]most baffling puzzles ever from crosswords to jigsaw's to the meaning of life.
[1:20]That is it.
[1:21]I am delighted to be here.
[1:22]Thank you, zibby.
[1:24]This was such an interesting read.
[1:26]First of all, I am used myself by trying to do a bunch of the puzzles, and have decided
[1:29]the only ones I'm good at are the anagrams, so I don't know what that says about me,
[1:34]but I'm only good with that.
[1:36]That was I could look at, and re-range the letters right away, and then I was like,
[1:40]yeah.
[1:41]Are you a spelling bee fan?
[1:42]Do you like spelling bee?
[1:44]You know, now that I've read your book and heard about the thing that keeps you over
[1:47]the middle of the night.
[1:48]That's going to be a challenge.
[1:50]I'm going to have to start doing that at what, three in the morning, but I haven't been
[1:53]doing that.
[1:54]I do work a little.
[1:55]I do work a little.
[1:56]Wordle is lovely.
[1:57]Yeah.
[1:58]My friend calls at the Tom Hanks of puzzles.
[2:00]It's very nice and I'm threatening, and I also love the wordle spin-offs.
[2:05]There's so many of them there, and they're so funny, like the Taylordle where Taylor Swift
[2:11]related words.
[2:12]Oh my gosh, I didn't, okay, so my teenage twins, we have a group text, and every day we
[2:18]send each other our wordle, you know, but the results, my daughter will freak out when
[2:23]she hears that there actually exists the Taylor Swift wordle, and that will be all she
[2:26]will do from now on.
[2:27]So maybe I'll even tell her.
[2:29]Well, my son is a Taylor Swift fan, so yeah, like in compare scores.
[2:33]Perfect.
[2:34]Well, Adam said, we'll add your son to the text.
[2:37]Okay, so as our conversation indicates, your book focuses a lot on different mind puzzles
[2:43]from where they began pre-will shorts to how they've evolved and what it even means
[2:50]to be obsessed with puzzles, and your understanding of that for yourself or your family.
[2:55]The Rubik's Cube, I mean, it was really, really fascinating.
[2:58]So talk a little about when, I know you've been doing puzzles your whole life, and this
[3:01]is in your DNA, but when this became a book idea for you and how your pursuit of all
[3:07]of this knowledge really came together.
[3:10]Well, I've always loved puzzles since I was a kid.
[3:14]I didn't have like a busy dating schedule as a kid, so I had lots of time for puzzles.
[3:19]I loved them, and I actually decided it's sort of shaped the way I look at the world.
[3:25]So I see everything as a puzzle.
[3:27]So one of my previous books was called The Year of Living Biblically, where I followed all
[3:31]the rules of the Bible, and that was sort of about the puzzle of religion and my heritage
[3:37]and Judaism.
[3:38]Like, what should I believe?
[3:39]That's a puzzle.
[3:40]And I wrote one about gratitude.
[3:42]How do you be grateful in this world where it's sometimes very hard to be grateful?
[3:46]And then I decided for this one, let me just stop beating around the bush and actually
[3:51]dive into my passion, which is puzzles of all kinds.
[3:56]And then I could print the puzzles, but I could go on these adventures.
[4:00]And I actually, it really solidified when I found a starting anecdote, a starting story,
[4:05]which is that a few years ago, I was the answer to one down in the New York Times Cross
[4:12]where it was, which for a word nerd was like the highlight of my life, like my wedding
[4:18]to my wife, that's pretty good.
[4:20]But this, this was the Holy Grail.
[4:23]And so I was riding high, and then my brother-in-law emailed me, and he pointed out, he did
[4:29]congratulate me.
[4:30]I want to throw that out there.
[4:31]But he also pointed out that I was in the Saturday puzzle.
[4:35]And if you know anything about The New York Times Cross, it's Saturday is the hardest
[4:39]day, hardest on Sunday.
[4:41]All the answers are totally obscure, no one's supposed to know them.
[4:44]So his point was, this is not a compliment.
[4:47]This is proof that no one knows who you are, and so then I'm crushed.
[4:53]And the happy ending, though, is I told that story on a podcast.
[4:57]And it happened that one of the New York Times Crossword Puzzle makers was listening.
[5:02]And he decided to save me and put me in a Tuesday puzzle, which is Monday is the best.
[5:09]But Tuesday is still pretty good.
[5:12]I don't belong there.
[5:13]That's where, like, Lady Gaga, then people like that belong.
[5:16]So I totally did not belong in the Tuesday puzzle, but he had pity on me, and he put
[5:22]me in there.
[5:23]And that was the greatest day.
[5:25]And that's how I started the book.
[5:26]Which all goes to show.
[5:27]You never know what happens when you go on someone's podcast, and you don't know who is
[5:31]listening.
[5:32]So you might as well put all the, you know, throw something out to the universe, you know,
[5:37]you never know what'll happen.
[5:39]That's right.
[5:39]I'm waiting for something after this podcast.
[5:41]I know.
[5:42]Let's see.
[5:43]What can we manufacture?
[5:44]What do you, what puzzle related wishes do on your list?
[5:48]I don't know.
[5:49]That's right.
[5:50]I got it.
[5:51]Well, I got to come up with some some problem in my life that someone else can solve
[5:55]from listening to this.
[5:56]So I'll buy the end.
[5:57]I'll have something.
[5:58]Okay.
[5:59]Might not be puzzle related at all, but, you know, we'll see what we can do.
[6:02]We can do.
[6:03]We can do.
[6:04]You talked interestingly about even the evolution of the modern crossword puzzle.
[6:08]It wasn't even called crosswords, it's called word cross.
[6:11]And you wrote, and my heart really went out to you, you spent nine days trying to solve
[6:15]the hardest crossword puzzle, really in existence.
[6:18]And tell, like, tell that story.
[6:21]Well, the guy who actually saved me and put me in the Tuesday puzzle is known for writing
[6:27]the most devious crosswords.
[6:30]And his motto is if, if you have to ask how hard, then it's not for you.
[6:36]These are just dreadful, but delightful.
[6:40]Like, you know, you got to be, you got to have a little masochism, but also want that payoff.
[6:45]But I, as you mentioned, I also talked about the history of the crossword puzzle, which
[6:49]was hilarious because they were invented in 1913.
[6:53]It appeared in the New York World newspaper.
[6:57]And they became a sensation, but one newspaper refused to print them.
[7:01]And that was the New York Times.
[7:03]They thought they were too low ground.
[7:05]They were snooty.
[7:07]And what I loved is I looked at the coverage in the 20s and 30s in the New York Times of crossword
[7:12]puzzles.
[7:13]And you would think it was like crack cocaine in the 80s.
[7:17]It was the worst, like a pestilence on society.
[7:21]It caused divorces and murders and literally prison riots.
[7:26]All of these were real articles.
[7:28]So I love that.
[7:29]And then in 1942, World War II started.
[7:33]They decided people needed some distraction.
[7:36]And they finally buckled.
[7:37]And now, of course, as you know, from wordle, they are the printer place for puzzles.
[7:42]So you never know.
[7:45]I feel like it's more like the social media of its time.
[7:49]It's how people were connecting, right?
[7:51]This joint activity that I feel like on a fundamental level, people really need.
[7:56]Whether it's like a great book roll reading, a great show roll watching or the crossword
[8:01]of the day that there aren't that many things left that we can all do on a schedule
[8:05]and enjoy it together.
[8:07]And I feel like at least a crossword puzzle and maybe no wordle and wordle now, too.
[8:10]It's like they're both, they're not tapping into that.
[8:13]I love that you say that.
[8:14]And it's so true.
[8:15]It is a very social activity.
[8:17]And I love that you do that with your kids.
[8:21]And I saw Josh Wordle speak at the American Crossword Puzzle Tournament, which was a couple
[8:27]months ago, which I competed in and was a disaster.
[8:31]I say that I like to savor the puzzles more than rush through them.
[8:36]But he had a lovely speech where he talked about how it was really bringing people together
[8:40]and he even had an anecdote of a gay man who was ostracized from his family because they
[8:46]were very conservative, but they bonded over wordle.
[8:49]This was how they restarted their relationship.
[8:52]So I do believe that's one of the big themes of the book is that puzzles are a force
[8:57]for good and they bring people together, like you say.
[9:00]I didn't realize wordle was named after a person.
[9:03]Josh Wordle, but I think it's W. A. R. D. L. A. So the pun is that it's wordle with the
[9:09]code.
[9:10]I clever these did he talk about how he ended up inventing it?
[9:14]Oh, yeah.
[9:15]It's a great story.
[9:16]It's a love story.
[9:17]You should have him on the pot.
[9:18]Well, I guess he hasn't written a book.
[9:19]Yeah, he did it for his girlfriend at the time who loved puzzles and then he just started
[9:25]sending it out to a couple of friends and it took off and it was funny actually because
[9:31]my book in some senses, the timing was fantastic because I started it a few months before
[9:38]the pandemic and then the pandemic came and puzzles were huge everywhere and jigsaw
[9:44]puzzles, which they have a chapter on.
[9:46]You couldn't find them.
[9:47]It was like hand sanitizer or toilet paper.
[9:50]I just got one as a gift today actually.
[9:52]It's on my desk.
[9:54]Springtime at the library, 500 pieces double sided by the storing.
[9:59]I'm never going to be able to.
[10:00]to do this. But anyway, my mom gave me that very same puzzle. Because she was a volunteer at the
[10:08]Library of Dawson. So that's funny. I haven't done it yet either. But I am sure you will do it in
[10:15]about one millionth time. It will take me. So I am not so sure. I have a chapter on Jigsaw's
[10:21]and my family and I went to Spain right before the pandemic to represent the United States
[10:26]in the World Jigsaw Puzzle Championship. And unfortunately, we embarrassed our country. We came
[10:32]in second to last. At least not last. We'd be Portugal. So that was nice. But I do love. I didn't always
[10:38]love Jigsaw's, but I learned to love them. But I feel like Jigsaw puzzles tap into a totally
[10:44]different part of the mind than some of these word puzzles. And even the word, even wordle taps into
[10:50]something totally different than the crossword. Some of it is knowledge. This is spatial relations,
[10:55]which I am like terrible at. They all have something a little bit different. I'm sure we're
[10:59]working together. It's all, it's all great for you. But I don't know. I feel like just because you're good
[11:05]in puzzles. And sorry, yeah, go ahead. No, you're absolutely right. I think I compare it to dating.
[11:10]Like there's a different type of puzzle for everyone. So if you love your good at spatial relations,
[11:14]like you say, the pubic skip. And there are also different benefits. I mean, the Jigsaw,
[11:20]unless you're in the Jigsaw puzzle tournament, which is a speed tournament, is very meditative.
[11:26]It's, I'm not a good meditator. But I do find putting these little pieces together
[11:31]is very relaxing. Others find that like just satisfying. There's a, I listen to Hugh Jackman
[11:38]on a podcast recently. And he's a huge Jigsaw puzzle fan, which I did not know. And he compared it,
[11:46]and this is a little gross. So blame him, but not me. Because he said, he said that when he
[11:51]puts the two pieces together and and feels that like thought that it's like popping a really good
[11:56]zit. So that is that's not where I thought you were going. Okay. I didn't know what was coming,
[12:03]but that's not, it was not the direction I had it dissipated. Well, I wanted to warn you, I
[12:08]wanted to trigger warning, but then it wasn't actually that bad. Speaking of what I thought you
[12:13]might have said, I just wanted to read this one paragraph, because your book is really funny.
[12:16]I mean, you have a really funny sense of humor. And I really, I know I mean it. I mean,
[12:20]you probably know that. But anyway, you said, why do I and millions of others love puzzles?
[12:24]Why would anyone bother frustrating themselves so much? I don't consider myself a masochist,
[12:28]at least not in the literal sense. I don't like physical pain. He said, I have no moral problem
[12:33]with SNM. Though I do find the prospect of it tiring. It involves too much equipment for me.
[12:38]It's the same reason I don't like skiing. I love to have it. I read that sense that way.
[12:43]Thank you so much for noticing that one. Yeah. I mean, it's 100% true. No moral just seems
[12:51]exhausting to me. And same with skiing. I think it's partly because I don't own skis. So I have to rent
[12:57]them and it's like, you know, eight, six hours online and then an hour on the slope. But yes,
[13:03]thank you for noticing. No problem. I agree with you. We're skiing. I grew up skiing. This is
[13:08]sounding very privileged. And I apologize for that. But that is just the, it just is how I grew up.
[13:13]Anyway, I grew up skiing. And as I grown up, I have decided that the payoff is completely not worth
[13:18]the time. Like, I am not doing it. I am not traveling to a faraway mountain and getting all the stuff
[13:24]and waiting on the lines for like the joy and that in that day. I am more like the line. What,
[13:29]but some love that I know I have so more power to them more. You know what? They can all have fun
[13:34]together. As if I'm close at ski resorts. Maybe we have an untapped,
[13:41]marketing. Brilliant. You're good. This is personal. This is what this podcast is going to bring
[13:48]into the world. Got help. So what was it like for you sort of compiling all of these puzzles? Like,
[13:56]did you try doing them all again? Like, how did you even pick which ones to put in the book and
[14:00]which ones to leave behind? And all of that when you were structuring the book itself?
[14:06]Well, I wanted some that would be fun for people to do. And I love that you love anagrams because
[14:11]that I do too. But then I also wanted just the craziest puzzles ever. So for instance, I have a
[14:17]chapter on secret codes. And there's a very famous one of the most famous unsolved puzzles in the
[14:23]world is at the headquarters of the CIA. And it's been there for 32 years and not even the CIA has
[14:30]solved it. And it's kind of their job. So it's this secret code on a sculpture and it's called
[14:36]cryptos. And people have solved part of it. But part of it remains unsolved. And just the obsession,
[14:42]that's when I love these communities. Thousands of people who are obsessed. And every day they
[14:48]have new theories. Oh, it's Moby Deck. No, I think the secret is going to be Navajo windtalkers or
[14:54]and then when I went there, because I got permission from the CIA to go there. And so I was like
[15:00]their secret spy and they had all these projects for me to do while I was down there. Like, you know,
[15:06]see if there's a hidden microphone in this hole. And so that was hilarious. So I wanted a mix of
[15:12]ones people could do, but also ones that were really wild that I could write about.
[15:16]Wait, speaking of code. So this book is unique and that you said in the introduction somewhere,
[15:23]and I did spend a few minutes on this. And of course failed that you had buried a secret code.
[15:27]And then you can go on to your website. I think you said the puzzler and type in, if you get the
[15:32]code, then you get access to a bunch of puzzles. And then you can win like $10,000, right? Tell me about
[15:37]this. Yes, that is this will be open until June 4th. I'm not sure when the podcast will drop
[15:43]in. Well, we'll find out. I don't know. I don't know. I don't never know when anything's airing,
[15:47]but yeah, well, what happened was I as a kid, I loved this book masquerade. You may be too
[15:55]young for that, but it was, so you remember. I think it's my age. I just don't think I know it.
[15:59]I'm 45. So I'm not young for really anything. No, no, I'm older. You're a youngster for me.
[16:06]Okay. But yeah, it was a British illustrated book. And in it, the illustrations hid the clues
[16:12]to a hidden treasure. And there was 1979 and it just caused a madness. People were rants.
[16:19]They were, this is in England, digging up yards everywhere, trespassing, threatening the author.
[16:24]And I just love, I was obsessed with it. And I thought since I'm writing a book about puzzles,
[16:29]I got to do something similar. I don't want to bury anything because I don't want to
[16:33]cause trespassing. But I wanted to have a little secret code. So in the intro,
[16:39]which is available as you say for free on the pusslerbook.com. So you don't need to buy the book.
[16:45]I hope you do, but you don't need to. And then in there is a secret code. If you go to the pusslerbook.com
[16:51]there are seats in there hints. So you should do that if you have. And if you crack the code,
[16:57]it opens up to this wild. What's called a puzzle hunt, which is kind of like an escape room,
[17:02]but on bath salts. And it is all of over 20 puzzles. And if you solve them, you get to the final
[17:09]round. And which starts on June 4th. If you win that, you win $10,000. So I have, and I didn't do
[17:16]the puzzles. They're by these geniuses. Because I can make okay puzzles, but these are like
[17:22]Michelangelo of puzzles. These are amazing. Wow. Are you going to announce the answer for all of
[17:29]of us who tried to crack the code and didn't? Absolutely. Yeah. So after June 4th, I can't do
[17:35]it. Otherwise, I'll get in a lot of trouble. Of course. Yes. I will check back then. I kept trying
[17:40]different. Anyway, I don't know. It was worth a while. Yeah. It was worth a shot. Can you try and
[17:45]don't give up again? Look on the website. It's got lots of hints that are important. You can't
[17:51]I think that's another really important thing about people who do puzzles or the willingness to
[17:58]go past the point of frustration and just stick to it. I mean, you mentioned how one strategy is
[18:05]just going through crossword questions. And finally, you find one. And then slowly you do it.
[18:10]Like, right. Like, one thing slowly leads to another. We have to have that patience. Like,
[18:15]I don't know if that I have that patience right now. At least not at this time of my life.
[18:20]Like, this whole, like, for the real advanced puzzler, like, why, how can they not give up?
[18:26]Like, how do you make sure you stick to it? And how do you inspire a lay puzzler like myself to
[18:31]not give up early? Well, yeah, it really is. I mean, it has taught me a lot of stick to
[18:37]with this and grit and all those other things that we're supposed to instill in our kids. And
[18:43]I mean, one thing is there are plenty of puzzles where you don't really need much. And it's like
[18:47]the spelling bee. That's like constant dopamine hits. So, you know, you'll get a word and then
[18:53]you'll get another. And so that's nice. But the, but the really hard puzzles, yeah, you definitely
[18:58]need some, and one big strategy, which has been around forever. Leonardo da Vinci, I almost said
[19:06]Leonardo da Caput. I almost, I thought that's what you're going to say.
[19:13]Okay. Leonardo da Vinci wrote about this that he said when you're confronted with a problem,
[19:19]he was talking about painting, but walk away, take a nap, do something else. And, and it,
[19:25]your brain works in mysterious ways. It marinates in the back of your brain. And you come back and
[19:30]you have a new fresh perspective. So don't give up forever. Give up for like 10 minutes. Give up
[19:36]for a day. And then come back. That's one big lesson I learned. All right. Well, maybe I'll try your
[19:41]introduction again tomorrow. Tomorrow, maybe what is coming next? What book? What are you attacking
[19:47]next? It's like that's a puzzle. If you will. I need it. And I do love getting suggestions. So
[19:56]if readers have suggestions, and I've gotten tons.
[20:00]over the years. I mean, some have been great. So I get a lot
[20:04]weirdly try to become the greatest lover in the world, like do all
[20:07]the positions in the connoisseur. Oh my goodness. I did bring it
[20:10]up to my wife. It's like no way. That is that sounds exhausting
[20:15]and horrible, which I kind of agree with. I mean, I, I'm not,
[20:18]I don't have the flexibility. But you consider it. So that's
[20:22]good for like a nanosecond, a nanosecond. If there's some
[20:26]young journalist listening, please enjoy on me. I would, I
[20:32]would read it, but I'm not going to, I don't want to read it
[20:34]about it. If this is you listening and you decided to take that
[20:38]idea and run with it, you must get to get your book to age
[20:40]age. Or don't mention me at all. Another option. Do you have
[20:48]any advice to aspiring authors for aspiring authors? I do.
[20:53]I have. Let me give you two. One is that I believe
[20:58]ideas are the lifeblood of writing and very rarely will an editor
[21:04]come and say, here's an idea. Will you write it? So some
[21:08]people are going to coming up with ideas while walking or taking a
[21:11]shower. I actually need to set aside a time like I need a
[21:16]little date with myself where I carve out 15 minutes and I
[21:21]turn off my computer and my iPhone and I just brainstorm
[21:26]come up with ideas. Maybe I'll have magazines around or or
[21:30]something to let my mind play with. But that to me is very
[21:35]important. So every day, I spend 15 minutes idea generating.
[21:39]And then the other one, I've given a couple of speeches to
[21:42]writing groups and I have this phrase, strategic hooks
[21:46]spot, the Jewish phrase for colonies. You've got to put
[21:52]yourself out there and you got a network. You've got to be
[21:56]okay with rejection because at the start of my career, it was
[22:01]I'd be lucky if it was a 99% rejection rate. I mean, I still
[22:05]have a high rejection rate and I've been doing this a long time.
[22:09]So just know that that is part of it. So you've got to have
[22:14]hooks find it. If you don't pretend to have the sort of fake
[22:17]it till you feel it, which is which I still do a lot. So those
[22:21]are just some some little nuggets in case they're helpful.
[22:27]Amazing. Well, maybe your next book could be about failure.
[22:29]You know, that's a nice. That's an interesting idea.
[22:32]I like it's book concepts and then if the book fails, I can be
[22:36]like I was all part of the plan. Yeah, see?
[22:40]AJ, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on mom's no
[22:44]time to read books and this was so fascinating. It was more than
[22:48]a book. It was a book. It was a mind teaser. It was, you know,
[22:51]it was great. It's like a bonus bonus section. Anyway, it was
[22:55]great. And in the spirit of gratitude, thank you for
[23:01]what you do for authors and getting the word out and and being
[23:05]an author yourself. Thank you for putting out the lovely
[23:08]content into the world. So thank you. And I guess in the
[23:11]spirit of gratitude also, thank you to John Lee v for
[23:14]introducing us. And yes, we love John. We love John.
[23:18]All right, thank you so much to care. Thank you. Is it
[23:21]me? Okay, this was fun. Bye bye. Bye bye.
[23:25]Hi, I'm city Owens and you're listening to the award-winning
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[23:40]time to do. All the authors have been on this podcast. Also, check
[23:44]out my TikTok at with Zibi and Tracy. My other podcast,
[23:47]Sex Talk with Zibi and Tracy. Check out Moms Don't Have Time to
[23:51]Write on Medium. And of course, my new publishing company
[23:54]called Zibi Books. And now back to our daily author interview
[23:58]site and a quick hello from some of my kids. Hi, hello. Enjoy the