Jean Hanff Korelitz, THE LATECOMER: A Novel
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[0:41]Jean-Hamp Corlets is the author of the leadcomer, a novel.
[0:46]She is also the New York Times best-selling author of the novels The Plot, which was the
[0:52]2021 Tonight Show Summer Reads Pick.
[0:55]She should have known, which was adapted for HBO as the Undoing by David E. Kelly, and
[1:00]starred Nicole Kidman, Hugh Grant, and Donald Sutherland, admission, which was adapted
[1:06]as the 2013 film Starring Tina Fey, The Devil and Webster, The White Rose, The Sabbath
[1:13]Day River, and a jury of her peers.
[1:16]Her company, Book the Writer, hosts pop-up book groups in person in New York and online
[1:21]where small groups of readers can discuss new books with their authors.
[1:25]Welcome, Jean.
[1:26]Thank you for coming back on Moms.
[1:28]Don't have time to read books to discuss your latest book, The Latecomer.
[1:32]Oh my gosh, I have that same book on my show right here.
[1:35]That's so crazy.
[1:36]I wonder how that even happens.
[1:37]It's amazing.
[1:38]Maybe it's a computer-advanced computer thing.
[1:42]It's a nice cover, though, isn't it?
[1:43]I love the cover.
[1:44]I love it.
[1:45]I love it.
[1:46]That you have read the book, you understand what the cover means that it's for these
[1:52]test tubes.
[1:53]Those are test tubes, right?
[1:54]Oh, I guess.
[1:55]That's so cool.
[1:56]We have three somewhat mature, I don't know how emotionally mature they are, flowers,
[2:00]and then we have a little latecomer poking her head up there, and they represent the
[2:05]triplets in the novel, and they're sibling born 18 years later after 18 years of undignified
[2:15]freezing in a strip mall, and it's tragic touch for any New York girl to be.
[2:23]I have to cool your heels in a strip mall in Connecticut.
[2:28]Did you wonder?
[2:29]Is she always cold?
[2:30]He always cold?
[2:31]Whatever.
[2:32]Not at all the time.
[2:33]If you have been in deep breeze for many, many years and then are born, are you always
[2:40]cold?
[2:41]Do you feel cold all the time?
[2:42]It was one of, maybe one of the very few things I never got around to addressing the
[2:48]houses.
[2:49]Well, it is not easy to follow up the plot with anything because the plot not only was
[2:54]totally genius and awesome, but got the acclaim and deserved, which doesn't always happen,
[2:59]but it did.
[3:00]So what a blessing.
[3:01]Amazing.
[3:02]It was unexpected and life-altering and very, very sweet because remember, this was 25 years
[3:09]into a writing career and book number seven.
[3:14]And that is not counting the books that did not get published.
[3:17]So it felt different from the get-go and it was different.
[3:23]And I'm still just so, every time somebody comes up to me, it says, I read the plot.
[3:28]I want to say, OK, who is it that you know in my life, who gave you this book?
[3:34]It wasn't mom, it wasn't manager, it wasn't my agent, it wasn't my friends.
[3:40]No, they're total strangers and they read the book and it's just wonderful.
[3:44]Oh my gosh.
[3:45]How is it life-changing?
[3:47]Like how did it change your life?
[3:49]I mean, you might imagine, I might imagine that a writer of seven novels, two of which
[3:56]had been made into film or television things, might...
[4:00]Wait, you are downplaying that a lot.
[4:02]They were not just film or television things.
[4:05]Explain what they were in case people...
[4:07]Well, admission, I'm sitting next to all my books, their admission was made into this,
[4:11]which was a very, very sweet film.
[4:13]He's holding it up with Paul Red and Tina Fey.
[4:16]Paul Red and Tina Fey, admission, they played the protagonist who was a Princeton admissions
[4:23]officer and the other one was this little ditty, so I'm trying to get the light out.
[4:28]The undoing the HBO show with them, Nicole Kidman, that was all the rage, what was it
[4:34]two years ago last year?
[4:36]Although, I mean, I think if you were doing a Venn diagram of you should have known the
[4:41]novel that I wrote and the undoing, there would be a modest overlap and not whatever.
[4:47]But you would think that with those great experiences that my work would have been, if not
[4:54]widely known, it's, you know, narrowly known.
[4:58]And that really wasn't the case.
[5:00]And I was, I have been extremely fortunate to have a wonderful editor and a wonderful
[5:06]agent who really has stood on either side of me and propped me up for many books and believed
[5:13]in me.
[5:14]And I think it's been a wonderful experience for all three of us to have this happen.
[5:19]But it just, everything felt different with this book.
[5:22]It was being extremely well published.
[5:25]It was being enjoyed.
[5:27]It was being talked about.
[5:28]And it's just kind of continued to percolate along for an entire year now.
[5:34]And here we are coming up to the paperback publication in just a few weeks.
[5:39]And I feel like the book is still selling, so it's been a wonderful experience.
[5:46]And the late show recognition, I mean, that was just a cherry on Sunday.
[5:51]I mean, just being, it wasn't just to be nominated, it was one of six books that were
[5:57]finalists for the Jimmy Fallon Summer Reads thing.
[6:01]And when I saw the other five books, I thought, okay, honored just to be nominated.
[6:05]They are great books, you know, most of them I read and admired, you know, crying in
[6:10]H-Mart and, and I've touched the, oh, oh, the final revival of Opal and Neve, wonderful
[6:17]book.
[6:18]And I really wasn't expecting to win.
[6:21]And I got a call from my editor.
[6:24]I was on vacation and an island in like Michigan that I'd always wanted to visit.
[6:30]And I just couldn't, the whole thing was just completely surreal.
[6:33]And then what you saw or perhaps didn't see on the late show is me not eating for four
[6:38]days because I was so nervous.
[6:40]But the plus was I could fit into my best skirt.
[6:42]So I don't know that well.
[6:45]And after it was over, I, I think I went immediately for the cookies in the green
[6:50]room and just like, stop it.
[6:53]That's quite a visceral experience.
[6:57]Well, so that's why I was even more surprised when the late summer showed up so quickly
[7:03]after the plot and not like something you just whipped out overnight.
[7:07]Like no, no, no, no, no, no.
[7:09]So did you write this before?
[7:10]Like tell me what happened.
[7:12]Right.
[7:13]Well, the late summer and the plot are so, such different novels, very different novels.
[7:19]In fact, they probably represent the two opposite poles of my writing life, the more kind
[7:25]of thriller, plot driven, plot driven and the more kind of contemplative, literary, observant
[7:31]novel.
[7:32]And yet in my brain, they're completely enmeshed because I wrote and rewrote the late
[7:38]summer before the pandemic.
[7:41]And it was not where it needed to be.
[7:43]And I wasn't sure why.
[7:45]I just kept banging my head against the wall and trying to figure out what the problem
[7:49]was, what the solution was.
[7:51]And it was during a meeting with my editor in which she was explaining to me why she wasn't
[7:58]ready to buy the book again, that I told her this other idea that I had, which was about
[8:04]that kind of washed up novelist who's teaching in some horrible kind of low residency
[8:11]MFA program.
[8:12]And he has this terrible student who has a brilliant idea and then the student dies leaving
[8:16]the idea unclaimed.
[8:18]And she got very excited about this idea.
[8:21]And she said to me, put down this book that you are struggling with, just walk away for
[8:29]a little while.
[8:30]And why don't you write this other thing.
[8:32]And the pandemic began, that is just what I did, I wrote the plot in four months, which
[8:38]is stupid.
[8:40]And I do not recommend that to anybody, in fact, I don't recommend that you read an
[8:44]awful written in four months because it's probably not going to be very good.
[8:49]But everything just came pouring out with the plot quite, again, quite the opposite
[8:54]of what I was dealing with with this novel.
[8:58]And after it was finished, a few months later, I picked up the manuscript and the skies
[9:04]opened up.
[9:05]I could see it.
[9:06]I could see what the problem was.
[9:08]I could see what the solution to the problem was.
[9:11]And then I didn't have to rewrite it a few more times.
[9:15]But it was that change of focus and that break and maybe the palate cleanser of a world
[9:23]altering global event, who knows that allowed me to see it again.
[9:28]And once I saw it, I could write the story that I wanted to write.
[9:32]So then it hit, ironically, it became the late-comer.
[9:35]It took this book so long that it was almost like being this last child in this family
[9:44]that I'm writing about, the child that kind of comes out finally and has to evaluate who
[9:51]she is and who these people and her family are and what she's going to do about them.
[9:55]So I mean, it was a case of the book kind of becoming itself.
[10:00]Well, I love the idea of the pandemic being just a palette cleanser.
[10:05]If only with heavy irony, you know, you're, you're, I was one of your salons literally that
[10:13]week. And, and I was super scared. And I know you were because we talked about this.
[10:18]And, you know, here we are still on zoom, although my building here on the upper west side
[10:22]has gone to mask option also. Let's hope that's, that's a tick in the right direction.
[10:28]Well, you should have actually just come here. That's, I almost suggested it.
[10:32]I wish you had done that. That would have been so much better. Oh, okay. Well, next time.
[10:36]Next time. We have a right another book. I think I need to take a little break now.
[10:42]Okay, so let's talk about the late comer, which I like immediately got invested.
[10:48]Like there are some books where it takes a little while to get into it, right? But from the way you
[10:53]write and the way you develop these characters immediately. I'm like, I am in. I want to know what
[10:58]happens. I want to know every little thing. And you have so many details. I mean, I love like the New York
[11:03]angle and the Senate, you know, going to collegiate and like all these little references and the
[11:07]hand, you know, I just love all these like, you know, insidery New York. Not so inset,
[11:11]sidery, but you know, how, how you depicted this world and that we all got to come right in.
[11:18]And then the way that you developed the, the, so the novel starts, there's a horrible thing
[11:25]that happens. And it spins off for the rest of the book. And I'll let you describe like the overall
[11:31]plot. But because of this event, you are immediately hooked, but it's the writing. And it's,
[11:38]it's the way each character. And you just keep wanting to see this one character crack,
[11:43]you just keep waiting, sort of like his, the woman he ends up with. Like what's going to happen?
[11:48]What like what happens when you're involved in something that's so horrible? And then life still
[11:53]has to unspool for you. Right. Right. Well, you know, because this appears literally in the first
[11:58]lines of the book, I think it's okay to share. Okay. Okay. I never know what to say and what not to say
[12:04]when it's like, no, they're, they're, even though I don't think anybody who reads the late
[12:08]summer would call it a thriller. There are plenty of plot twists in this book. I love a good plot twist.
[12:14]I may be, I think of myself as a literary writer, but I have deep, deep appreciation for plot.
[12:21]I wrote a book called the plot. It's, it's very hardwired into me. The foundational event of this
[12:27]family, they're the Oppenheimer's of Brooklyn. They're a very wealthy New York Jewish family.
[12:33]They're also descended from a real person, Joseph Oppenheimer, who was, who was manipulative,
[12:40]who's a story was manipulated by Goibles in the third Reich as a character he named Yudzus and made
[12:48]a propaganda film about. In real life, Yudzus, who was an 18th century Jewish martyr in Germany did not
[12:55]have any descendants, but this family are descended from him because it's fiction and we can do
[13:00]what we want. This character, his name is Salo Oppenheimer, is involved in a terrible car accident
[13:06]in which he is driving a car. He's driving a Jeep and the Jeep flips over and kills two of the people
[13:13]in the car. One is his girlfriend and possible future fiance and the other is a fraternity friend.
[13:20]And then there's one more person in the car who he's just met. So he doesn't, doesn't occupy a lot
[13:27]of his psychic space. That person survives, he survives. So at the beginning of the novel, you know,
[13:34]we find him at the funeral of his girlfriend and one of the mourners is a woman who is going to
[13:42]be his future wife, is going to marry him and going to sort of devote her life to making it up to
[13:48]him, this horrible thing that he did, that the skill that he's frozen inside and she can't do it
[13:55]because nobody can do it or to be more accurate, there's only one person who can forgive
[14:00]Salo Oppenheimer and he has yet to encounter that person. So what Joanna, his wife is trying to do
[14:08]is create such a beautiful and happy family for him that he can be forgiven. He can forgive himself.
[14:14]And to that end, she produces triplets in vitro triplets and there is one leftover embryo who
[14:22]is randomly dispatched to that strip mall in Connecticut to linger in cryogenic suspension or
[14:31]forever, you know, because they don't think they need that embryo because they're not expecting
[14:36]this incredible fecundity of these triplets and then they just kind of keep paying the maintenance
[14:43]fees. So they have these triplets and these triplets hate one another, they hate one another
[14:48]since the petri dish, basically. And the only thing that haven't common is that they're trying
[14:53]to get away from one another. So this magical, happy family that Joanna is trying so desperately
[14:59]to create is just off the rails from the beginning. And the family makes an unfathomable decision
[15:07]just as the triplets are about to leave home for college and that is to have this fourth child
[15:13]by surrogate. And we who are parents might ask ourselves, why would anyone do that? And you know,
[15:22]you have three kids, they haven't, you know, robbed a post office, they're graduating from high
[15:30]school, they're going to college, they're out and they're okay. Why would you start over with an
[15:37]infant at that moment? And that is the question that we answer. Oh, that's one of the questions
[15:44]that we answer in this book. You know, the, the, the, what is the why questions are the ones that
[15:49]get us going as, as snobless. Why would you do that? I mean, do we know the last of your four kids
[15:57]is about five honey, you have a great time at college. Oh, I know. Let's have a baby. No, you would
[16:04]I mean, I'm going to be like in the ARP by the time that happens basically. Well, so is this family
[16:10]so yeah, that is one of many questions that that pushes this narrative along. But the biggest question
[16:17]is what is wrong with this family and what has to happen for this family to reach some kind of
[16:24]datant. And that becomes the problem of the late cover of this final child. And I feel like I
[16:32]have already said too much and I've come. You haven't ruined anything. No, I just think in my head,
[16:38]I don't know. No, no, you did not ruin anything. Not in the slightest. I was also, I was really
[16:45]interested in the way that you woven art and the side twomly that he salo, salo, salo, salo,
[16:51]salo, fallacies in this random, you know, it has this very physical emotional response too. And
[16:58]just, you know, it's the only thing that seems to elicit any emotion out of him from anything that
[17:04]he experiences. And then he love the image of like the twomly just like on the floor in this third
[17:10]avenue, one bedroom. Right. Right on one hook on the wall. And it falling off. And I'm like literally
[17:19]cringing like, oh my god, that's a $70 million painting. Be careful with it. You don't just
[17:25]bang it. Yes. Well, I'm extremely fortunate. I'm not all that knowledgeable about art, but I have a good
[17:32]friend named Steve Martin who is. And I went out like a name and I said Steve Martin are just another
[17:38]man. And these Steve Martin and who is an incredible collector of art and very knowledgeable about
[17:44]art. And we together created Salo Oppenheimer's fantasy art collection, salo begins to collect
[17:52]art in the 1970s. He has moved only by his emotional response to specific pieces. He doesn't care
[18:00]about money. He has money. He doesn't care about the prospects of a particular artist becoming
[18:06]valuable. He doesn't care about any of that. He cares about the solace that these paintings
[18:12]offer to him, beginning with the twomly, which he actually faints in front of. And when he sees
[18:17]it in an museum. And this isn't actually, this is a thing that this is an existing thing. It's called
[18:22]the Stondahl syndrome, in which usually tourists faint before great art. That's the kind of thing
[18:30]you just you read about and you think one day I'm going to put that in a novel. But he keeps his
[18:35]passion for his art collection completely separate from this family. All of the love and passion and
[18:40]that should be going into the family that his wife has gone to such effort to create for him
[18:44]is going into this. It's not exactly a secret collection, but it's a private collection. And he
[18:50]houses it in a warehouse in Red Hook in Brooklyn. So most of the art that he collects is
[19:01]art that would not become valuable for some time. He's incredibly present. And if he
[19:07]he were collecting for money, he's done very, very well. And I like that you don't even have
[19:12]the artists. Like I happen to know I love art history and I, you know, I'm like, okay, so these two
[19:17]gray splotches. This is a Rothcoat, right? But you never say that like, oh, he just happens to buy a
[19:22]Rothcoat at this particular time or, you know, a lot. I mean, later one of his children gives us more
[19:32]of a specific tour of the collection. So we kind of get the breadth of what he accomplished. But
[19:37]this was actually, you know, when you're a novelist, ideas come from all sorts of places and you
[19:44]don't use them right away. Sometimes they linger in your head for a long time. And many years
[19:48]ago, I was watching television in a London hotel room. And I was watching an episode of the
[19:55]British version of Antique's Roadshow. And there was the most...
[20:00]extraordinary story unfolding on this episode and it had to do with a man who had died and his son
[20:08]and his what and his widow were had brought this collection of silver to the Antiques Roadshow
[20:16]and every time the host or the appraiser pulled an object out of this bag he freaked out more
[20:22]and more and this is the most rare this is most I've only seen this once before in the museum
[20:27]whatever not the tape the British Museum and you would think that the family members would be
[20:34]kind of happy and wow we're gonna have an inheritance they were more and more visibly distressed
[20:41]with every object that came out of this bag because it was clear to them and to the host and to us
[20:48]that this man's love and passion and care and delight had all gone to this collection and not at
[20:58]all to his family the family didn't even know about the collection they maybe knew that dad went to
[21:04]a museum on the weekend or he went to a trade show or he went to a antique show or something but this
[21:10]they had no idea and it was the most fascinating family dynamic and years later you know I went to that
[21:16]memory for this man and his art the idea that he's assembling a world-class collection of 20
[21:24]century painters in a in a warehouse in redwood well his his family languages without his attention
[21:32]is just you know unbearable really so that's where that came from oh my gosh I just inspiration
[21:42]comes in all sorts of places it does and you don't you know if anything you would see a story
[21:48]like that and say I'm gonna make that the centerpiece of a novel one day but but in fact this isn't
[21:54]the centerpiece this is just one element this very very you know the story has so many pieces this is
[22:01]just one piece well and the fertility journey also I mean I was actually really interested because
[22:08]this dovetailed to me more with what happens these days right or this in the last I don't know
[22:15]to 20 years or something but this happened a while ago and I was wondering yeah it was a good
[22:21]there is for people who know there for assisted fertility history the dates are a little off
[22:27]I'm off by about three years my fictional fertility journey jumps the the factual gun by a couple
[22:34]of years but certainly by the time by the time you and I were happy our kids this was more of a
[22:40]of the story that we were hearing a lot I think the more common story is you produce these eggs
[22:46]you have one few years later you have another but this was a case where she's not expected to have
[22:52]a successful pregnancy of one child let alone three it just after many failures it just works so
[23:00]because when it's superstitious about these things you you know you keep paying the the maintenance
[23:07]fees I mean I every year I read a check from my 22 year old son's umbilical cord blood
[23:15]I have that too I'm like what on earth why am I like I don't even know if I can find that receipt
[23:20]honestly it's like to the wrong email like I know it's out there somewhere
[23:24]if people even still talk about that that was like such a big deal before cord blood banking
[23:29]oh yeah but you know there's a superstition about it you know there there's a Greek myth about
[23:34]a baby who's born and the mother hears some supernatural creatures say it's too bad that when
[23:42]that log is finished burning up that baby's going to die so she snatches the log out of the fire
[23:48]and saves it until many years later she's really mad at him for something and she throws it back
[23:53]on the fire and he dies oh my gosh it's true I love that story yeah you never know where the
[24:01]ideas are gonna come from wow I also feel like there's a lot of you know Johanna is very like a
[24:08]shamed of her family in relationship to this other family and you have this one scene where
[24:14]she I think they like ran to his family's apartment to grab something or something and she's like
[24:18]wandering around looking at menays and you know she's dawning on her what she's gotten herself
[24:23]into basically and that sort of you know culture shock if you will or just like this whole new world
[24:30]that has opened up for her that she doesn't even really quite know how to deal with which
[24:33]I feel like many people not in this particular way with you know grandmaster art and all of the rest
[24:38]but many people find themselves in a in a new family situation with the person they're marrying
[24:42]and they're like okay this is a whole new world how do I navigate this which is Joanna's from
[24:48]New Jersey and her father is the accountant at the Lawrenceville school so she is used to one version
[24:54]of American prosperity and that is that is not what she's looking at in her Beyonce so by the time
[25:02]she kind of figures it all out you know it's a mood issue because apart from these paintings which
[25:08]costing a lot of money in the 70s and 80s they're you know they're kind of frugal people they don't
[25:14]splash out a lot so when she sees a man a and her in law she's she's like could that be a fake
[25:21]no that's not a fake that's three. I wish you would do like a slot maybe you already did this and
[25:28]I just didn't even see it anywhere or whatever but like a the art collection piece of it
[25:34]and then I'll stop talking about the art but if you need to see as a slideshow right like put it
[25:38]on the website just asked to do a list of the paintings which was a lot of fun yeah I did that
[25:45]but of course it's an important moment in the story that Salo steps out of his usual art
[25:51]collection to collect the work of one particular outsider artist and that is a real artist named
[25:58]Kelly's Ritzelli who I revere who has really not gotten a lot of attention although he
[26:05]emerged at the beginning of outsider art but his star has really not risen in the way that I
[26:10]thought it should have so this is a real artist whose life and work I appropriated for my novel
[26:15]because I can because its fiction and Salo acquires this entire collection of this this real
[26:22]artist work and then it mysteriously disappears and what happens to that is a very important part
[26:27]of the story so so we'll just leave that with it dot dot dot just dangle that there
[26:36]amazing does I mean I feel like everything what is that what are the updates on film stuff with
[26:42]this and with the plot and everything else are there anymore yeah well the late summer will be
[26:48]a television series and that's pretty much all I know it's going to be produced by two producers
[26:56]one is Bruno Papa Andrea who is part of the team that did the undoing she's also
[27:03]produced big little lies and nine perfect strangers not your 10 perfect strangers and also just
[27:11]a canals book the luckiest girl alive which I'm very excited to see and a lot of other stuff
[27:17]and the other producers of women in christen campo who will be producing the plot so there's more
[27:22]to say about the plot it's been announced that the protagonist of the plot Jake is going to be
[27:28]played by mahar shala Ali and that will not start filming until next year so that's that's all
[27:35]we got right now it's going to be at hulu got it out so yeah incredibly exciting and I'm hoping to
[27:44]be part of the running team for the plot which is going to be an adventure I've never written
[27:50]for screen before so I expect to learn a lot amazing jean this is so exciting I mean
[27:58]like we met a couple years ago and you're like I have a word handy things and yeah these
[28:01]and films it you're just so like humble and yeah like you know just so self-defrecating you
[28:08]know it's just so nice that obviously they're happening for you don't do it don't do it
[28:14]no it's so great and you still your book the writer series where you're promoting other authors
[28:18]which is so wonderful that's great let it vary citizenship so I don't know I'm so excited for you
[28:24]and I'm excited for the link I love writers some of my best friends are writers and this crazy
[28:31]thing that we do you know women are pajamas and put words on the page in the kind of weird
[28:38]expectation that somebody will read them one day what somebody will take their precious time
[28:43]to open a book that we wrote and sit with it it's it's a lot to ask of the universe for somebody
[28:49]to spend their time you know with your words and it's just it's it's an incredibly generous act
[28:57]when people do that but hey I mean you you can't see what I'm looking at but I'm looking at
[29:03]and not as pretty as yourselves because I'm alphabetical not by color but I mean these are all
[29:10]the books that have meant something to me and believe me there are many more that didn't make
[29:14]the shelves so I am grateful for every one of these books that I've read and I guess it's part of
[29:21]our part of the way we touch other people probably not the best way to put it but I'm you know
[29:28]I'm so grateful that I've been able to have this from other people and give this to her very
[29:33]well said all right well Jean thank you thank you for coming on I was very honest with you that
[29:39]I have not finished this whole book and I am very excited to do so but I'm glad I didn't post
[29:44]fun the interview because I wanted to talk to you about it and I've already been recommending this
[29:48]front-right and center to my best girlfriends who I trade books with and I anticipate this being a
[29:53]huge book this summer so congratulations I hope so thanks thanks Vivi thanks Jean
[30:00]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast moms don't have time to read books
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