Sabaa Tahir, ALL MY RAGE: A Novel
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[0:41]Sabata here is the author of All My Rage, A Novel.
[0:45]Sabah is the number one New York Times best-selling author of the Ember in the Ashes series,
[0:49]which has been translated into over 35 languages.
[0:52]She grew up in California's Mojave Desert at her family's 18-room motel.
[0:57]There, she spent her time devouring fantasy novels,
[0:59]rating her brother's comic book stash, and playing guitar, badly.
[1:03]She began writing books while working nights as a newspaper editor.
[1:06]She likes thunderous indie rock, garish socks, and all things nerd.
[1:11]Welcome, Sabah.
[1:12]Thank you so much for coming on Moms back on Moms Don't Have Time to read books
[1:15]to discuss All My Rage, A Novel.
[1:18]Thank you.
[1:19]I'm very happy to be here.
[1:21]He's fabulous title, by the way.
[1:22]This is great.
[1:23]It's a nice thing, just to leave on someone's bedside or something, just to gently
[1:28]say it.
[1:29]Right?
[1:30]Said.
[1:31]It's like a, like a sub-tweet title form.
[1:33]Totally.
[1:34]I love it.
[1:35]Well, we last spoke about your Ember in the Ashes series when we did a live event.
[1:41]And since then, you haven't just written this.
[1:43]This is a labor of love that's taken you a long time.
[1:46]Tell listeners about All My Rage and the journey to getting it out into the world.
[1:51]And congratulations.
[1:53]Now that you're doing live events and all the good things.
[1:56]So thank you.
[1:57]So All My Rage started many years ago.
[2:01]It took me about 15 years to write.
[2:03]But if I was thinking about the day of doing math and actually started writing it more
[2:08]than 15 years ago, and it began right after college.
[2:12]I wanted to write, but not, you know, I didn't think it could be a real job.
[2:17]And I was just sort of doing it because I'd always written it, always told stories.
[2:21]And my parents had this motel that I had grown up at and they had recently sold it.
[2:26]And it was very weird for me because I didn't get a chance like go say goodbye to it
[2:31]or have any closure.
[2:32]And it was such a formative part of my childhood experience that I started thinking about
[2:38]it all the time.
[2:39]And then I started writing about it.
[2:40]And initially I started writing about the tenants at the motel called these different people
[2:44]who would come through and all the, you know, beautiful and awful things that they might
[2:49]do.
[2:50]And then I ended up shifting to the people who ran the motel.
[2:54]And that's where Ms. Bud, the character of Ms. Bud was really created.
[2:57]It was so long ago that I, it's crazy to me that she's stuck with the book for so long
[3:03]because that's not always the case.
[3:05]Sometimes you create characters and they sort of wander off the page and never come back.
[3:09]So with Ms. Bud, you know, she stayed and then slowly over time I began to find these
[3:15]other characters who people told world.
[3:18]And that's really how the book started.
[3:20]And then, you know, I would write it when I was angry.
[3:23]I would call it my anger book, which, you know, from the title, I'm sure you could
[3:26]tell.
[3:27]And I was frustrated with the world when I'd have a terrible experience.
[3:30]I would just, I would turn to that book and I would sort of pour myself into it because
[3:33]I didn't owe that book to anyone.
[3:35]No one was expecting it.
[3:37]You know, no one knew about it.
[3:38]It was sort of this safe place for me to get out what I was feeling.
[3:44]And then eventually in like 2017, 2018, I started seeing it come together as an actual
[3:49]full story.
[3:50]And that's when, you know, the story as it is now, that's really when I came together.
[3:55]Wow.
[3:56]Oh my gosh.
[3:57]So the scenes, like some of the scenes were just so visual vivid.
[4:03]I mean, I know this is how you write anyway, but really like heart string tugging emotional
[4:09]scenes, particularly the one at the hospital where every, I am really bad.
[4:14]A name.
[4:15]So I'm going to forget all the names of the characters.
[4:16]So this is my biggest flaw is like a podcast or whatever, but anyway.
[4:21]So Sal is there.
[4:22]His mom is admitted.
[4:24]He's biked there or ran there.
[4:26]Sorry.
[4:27]He wasn't get a bike and then he ran there or whatever.
[4:29]And he has to deal with his father who then slaps him accidentally.
[4:33]We don't know in front of this policeman.
[4:35]And I hope, I mean, it's so early on, I'm not going to think white, but and how he has
[4:38]to sort of choose do I stay with my mom, but now I have to get my dad home.
[4:42]Like you could just feel the sense of being so stuck and like they're not being a right
[4:49]choice.
[4:50]And they're, it just felt so overwhelming and the sense of desperation and just this predicament.
[4:57]I mean, it just felt anyway, I happened to I like loved, I loved the pain of that moment.
[5:03]Yeah, you know, it was, I think it's reflective of what happens to many teenagers.
[5:10]I think as adults, we really do like to think that we protect and shelter our children and
[5:16]that they're okay and they're safe and they're fine, but there are so many who are not
[5:21]and they don't have that protection.
[5:23]And then they have to make these very adult decisions when they're not prepared to and
[5:28]there's bound to be fallout from stuff like that because they don't have the life experience
[5:32]to really make it good, you know, and safe decision, right?
[5:35]I think a lot, as I was writing, I thought a lot about, you know, how much I didn't want
[5:40]these kids to make certain decisions.
[5:42]I was like, no, don't do it, but I also realized that, you know, in that situation,
[5:47]I would probably make the same choice that they did and it's not a good choice and then
[5:52]I would probably have to deal with the consequences of that.
[5:56]And so there's a lot of those moments in the book where, you know, these kids are really
[6:00]faced with no good choice, there's just, there's no way to make what they're dealing
[6:06]with any easier or later, but they find their way through and that's really ultimately
[6:10]what the book is about.
[6:11]It's about hope and what happens on the other side of the decisions and on the other
[6:16]side of grief, right?
[6:18]And on the other side of sadness, like that's really what the story is about.
[6:22]Oh, do you feel hopeful?
[6:24]Like do you feel hopeful?
[6:25]I do.
[6:26]Yeah, it's funny because amongst my family and friends, I'm sometimes known as the little
[6:32]rain cloud because I hope he, I'm the one who's like, no, everything's going to go wrong.
[6:38]But for some reason, I think that's like a defense mechanism and I actually think that
[6:44]deep deep down, I am hopeful.
[6:45]I think you have to be hopeful to write a book for so many years as I wrote both Ember
[6:50]and all my rage, something inside you has to think maybe one day, right?
[6:55]Like some part of you has to believe.
[6:57]And so it might be hope that's really deeply buried, but it's definitely there.
[7:03]Is there when you kept coming back to the book over time?
[7:06]Was there one part of it that you remember writing when you were at your most sort of
[7:12]raw rage moment yourself that you wrote that's now in the book for all to see?
[7:17]Like what was that?
[7:18]Like is there a, which scene was that or many scenes?
[7:20]Yeah, so big what?
[7:21]There are a few.
[7:22]There are quite a few, but the one that stands out to me, actually I was probably
[7:27]angry as I've ever been and it was chapter 40 and it is a scene where, and it's actually
[7:34]a very quiet scene, which is what's sort of interesting about how it translated into writing.
[7:40]I wrote that years ago, I'm talking a very beginning of this journey and it's the scene
[7:46]where Salahadine is really contemplating sort of the beginnings of his friendship with
[7:51]Nor and how he and Nor like met and sort of what she's meant to him and what he's
[7:59]meant to her over the years.
[8:01]And it's not meant to be this really loud like angry, you know chapter, but it isn't
[8:06]to reflect reality just heading this kid like a meteor when he realizes that the choices
[8:12]he's made has had this awful effect on somebody who he loves and that's something that,
[8:18]you know, I wrote, I remember writing when I was really, really upset about something and
[8:23]I was so happy I got to keep it in the book.
[8:25]I actually built a lot of the book knowing that like I want that scene in there.
[8:28]It's an important scene.
[8:30]It's an important realization.
[8:32]How do I make that happen?
[8:34]Well, I love their whole dynamic.
[8:36]I mean, from the first, I just really wanted them to get to get back together.
[8:41]I was like, these people have got to get back together.
[8:43]Like, how long are they going to stay apart?
[8:46]Like, there is too much.
[8:48]I mean, and even just the feeling of like, oh, I just can't even go to school today
[8:52]because this person, like, I kind of forgotten that whole stage of light up, like see
[8:57]it like having your home room or your your English class have like somebody you're having
[9:02]this like intense thing with whether you broke up or you're together in the crash or whatever
[9:06]and like, how are you supposed to also focus on the book or whatever you're supposed
[9:11]to be doing?
[9:12]Oh, my gosh.
[9:13]No, it's really like a miracle.
[9:14]Anyone graduates from high school with like all the hormones and all the relationships.
[9:19]It is such a miracle.
[9:21]And I mean, I think that it was hard for me because I wanted, you know, I wanted to give
[9:26]them like this happily ever after, right?
[9:28]Like, I wanted to bring them back to each other, but I also kept thinking, you know, what
[9:33]makes relationships really strong.
[9:36]And I think that it is realizing that you can weather difficult things, right, friendships
[9:42]in particular.
[9:43]Like I think about a lot of my oldest friendships and we've absolutely had fights.
[9:48]We've absolutely not spoken to each other for, you know, a few weeks, you know, or a few
[9:52]months even, but somehow we find our way back to each other.
[9:56]And there's a level of sort of depth that.
[10:00]at the friendship that has almost like seasoning.
[10:02]It's like a cast iron pan.
[10:03]I love it.
[10:04]Everything you've done through is like, you know,
[10:06]a little bit of oil when you season it,
[10:08]you could get it or whatever.
[10:09]And you become more non-stick.
[10:13]But with a cast iron pan,
[10:16]you have to let it sit afterwards too,
[10:18]because it's smolders.
[10:19]And so you can't quickly wash it and have it all go away.
[10:22]Like the cast iron, like you've got to sit and wait.
[10:26]You've got to be patient.
[10:27]You've got to be patient.
[10:28]It is really the same with friendship, right?
[10:30]Like, like Sola had been had to learn
[10:35]that, you know, maybe he doesn't deserve forgiveness.
[10:39]Maybe that's not a choice he gets to make
[10:41]for somebody else, right?
[10:43]And that's an important thing that I have to learn
[10:45]as a kid, you know, that I don't get to decide
[10:47]if somebody forgives me or not.
[10:49]That's between them and, you know,
[10:51]himself, basically.
[10:53]And then hopefully I'll be the recipient of that forgiveness.
[10:55]But if not, that is not my choice.
[10:58]And I can't change it.
[10:59]And that's a hard lesson to learn.
[11:01]Can you share any of the reality
[11:03]behind some of the angry moments?
[11:04]Sure.
[11:05]So Jamie, who is a character that Nor is dealing with.
[11:09]Jamie is this, you know, popular, very, very intelligent girl
[11:15]who is a little racist, doesn't really realize it.
[11:19]Sort of thinks that she's, you know, an equal opportunity
[11:23]and, you know, very woke, but she's not.
[11:26]And she doesn't know it.
[11:27]And there's a moment with her, where Nor is green card
[11:31]falls out of her purse.
[11:32]And it happens to be Nor's old green card,
[11:34]because a lot of immigrants will know,
[11:37]like you kind of keep all your green cards,
[11:38]like you don't just throw one away.
[11:40]And it used to be that you didn't have to return one
[11:42]before you got to do it.
[11:43]You could keep the old one and they'd just like put a punch
[11:45]in it so that it wasn't valid.
[11:47]And so Nor has her old one, so she can have her number honor
[11:51]because her uncle keeps her, like, current green card.
[11:55]And Jamie sees it and is like, oh my God,
[11:57]your green card is expired.
[11:59]You know, you're here illegally.
[12:01]And I remember something like that happening to me,
[12:04]where it wasn't, you know, they didn't see my green card,
[12:06]but they were questioning whether I had one or not.
[12:09]And had said that, you know,
[12:11]I was probably here illegally.
[12:13]And I just remember like the scoring that this person had
[12:18]for me, you know, and I kept thinking,
[12:21]and I think about now, you know, sort of,
[12:22]what's happening in the world.
[12:24]And the state of the world and the number of refugees
[12:27]in the world and my family was not a refugee family,
[12:30]you know, but we came to America
[12:31]because my father was looking for a job here.
[12:34]But I just keep thinking, I just kept thinking
[12:37]as I was writing, like, there are people who really don't
[12:40]have any empathy.
[12:42]They just don't, they just, they don't,
[12:44]they cannot put themselves in other people.
[12:46]She just don't know how to do it.
[12:48]And I think Jamie is one of those people.
[12:50]And so I wanted to sort of throw a bunch of my,
[12:54]kind of childhood and high school villains
[12:56]into this one uber monster, you know,
[13:00]and the thing about Jamie, right,
[13:02]is that she's very quietly awful.
[13:04]She's not, I mean, she becomes louder as the book goes on.
[13:08]But when you first meet her, you're not thinking like,
[13:10]if she's so horrible, you're thinking,
[13:12]oh, she's a little competitive
[13:13]and she probably wants to know more about this girl
[13:16]who she's so competitive with and like
[13:18]where she's going to college.
[13:19]But as time goes on, you realize it's a power thing.
[13:22]She believes she deserves to know what's happening
[13:24]in North Live.
[13:25]She deserves to be better than nor.
[13:27]And that's based on her sense of superiority.
[13:30]That's something I think that a lot of us
[13:32]have dealt with, definitely if you're a woman,
[13:35]you don't with it, you know.
[13:37]But just in general, I think a lot of us have all seen
[13:40]that person who thinks they're better
[13:41]and make sure that you know it.
[13:43]So have you seen the movie Bad Moms?
[13:46]No, this is like, I saw it a long time ago,
[13:48]but I don't remember it.
[13:50]Okay, so Christina Applegate plays like the mean mom
[13:53]who is just terrible at every turn.
[13:55]And at first you think, maybe she's gonna be okay.
[13:58]She's like the P head of the PA,
[13:59]but it's always like, you know,
[14:01]and then at the end of the movie,
[14:02]she ends up breaking down and you see why.
[14:05]But you don't always get that scene with people, right?
[14:10]You only see, you don't get to crack the surface
[14:13]and find out that like, oh,
[14:15]the reason this person is like this
[14:17]is because this horrific thing has happened to them
[14:19]or this inherited trauma, not that it makes it better.
[14:22]But like, it would be so much more helpful
[14:25]if we could see like, oh, this person has no empathy
[14:27]because, you know, well, sometimes I feel like some people
[14:30]are just unfortunately born with that.
[14:31]I know some people like that.
[14:33]It's like very frustrating, yeah.
[14:34]But there's often a reason for being really mean
[14:37]all the time and that need for superiority.
[14:40]And I don't know, I think the world would be a better place
[14:42]if we could like crack in and be like,
[14:45]like, yeah, that happened to you.
[14:47]It is take the hate and like, let's turn that around.
[14:50]Anyway, this is sounding much healthier
[14:52]than when I just started talking about this.
[14:53]No, no, I feel you.
[14:54]And the thing is, you know, as a kid, I actually wanted that.
[14:57]I wanted to know like, why are you so awful?
[15:00]Yeah.
[15:01]And I never got that answer for a lot of these kids.
[15:03]I never got the answer.
[15:04]I would meet their parents, their parents would be
[15:07]perfectly nice.
[15:08]People, they seemed to have everything.
[15:11]There had to have been some reason I would think, right?
[15:15]But I never found it.
[15:16]And so I wanted to also in the book kind of reflect that
[15:19]that, you know, these kids don't always find a reason
[15:22]for why their tormentors are so horrible.
[15:24]Yeah, it's true.
[15:26]I recently, I had someone be really mean to me at a summer camp
[15:29]once, like when I was eight, and I kind of
[15:31]haven't been like never got over it.
[15:33]She was like, sorry, because I didn't know people
[15:35]could be mean like that.
[15:36]That means, anyway, this person recently came back
[15:39]into my life tangentially on an email.
[15:42]And I said to her, like, by the way, you probably
[15:45]don't remember because we were eight.
[15:46]But like, you didn't did all these things
[15:48]that were really, really hurtful.
[15:50]Anyway, she wrote back and said she was sorry,
[15:53]and she was going through a lot of that time too.
[15:55]But it's usually the case, right?
[15:58]Like, it's usually the case, like someone's going through
[16:01]something, they're experiencing something,
[16:02]and we just have no idea.
[16:04]And it's why, but I mean, I think that's why, like,
[16:07]I'll tell my kids, and I myself will try to, you know,
[16:10]if I feel myself getting heated with somebody else,
[16:13]I try to be like, okay, what might they be going through?
[16:16]Right, like, what might they dare Davey like, right?
[16:19]Maybe they're going through something,
[16:20]and you're really just making it worse.
[16:22]Like, do you want to be the person who might put the straw
[16:25]that broke the camel?
[16:25]What do you want to be that guy?
[16:27]So, or do you want to be someone who makes their day better?
[16:29]Yeah.
[16:30]And who makes it, makes the world a little better for them,
[16:32]or makes the day a little less, right?
[16:36]Yeah.
[16:37]So, it is something you have to learn over time.
[16:39]I mean, it took me 40 years.
[16:40]Totally.
[16:41]Yeah.
[16:42]Me too.
[16:43]45.
[16:44]Yeah.
[16:45]I was trying to teach this to my kids last night, actually,
[16:46]because one of them was really angry about something,
[16:48]and the other one went over to make them feel better.
[16:52]And it didn't work at all, because, and so anyway,
[16:54]I was trying to explain it after I was like, listen,
[16:55]like, you're sibling was so upset that they're like, you know,
[17:00]a teapot with steam or smoke coming out, right?
[17:04]You just got in the way of the smoke.
[17:05]Like, it didn't matter who was going to come in the way.
[17:07]Like, you were going to get smoke in your face, you know?
[17:09]So sometimes when you see people exploding,
[17:12]just stay with, you know, you're,
[17:14]stay with me, look and come of it, right?
[17:16]So anyway, I don't know.
[17:17]It works enough that they fell asleep.
[17:19]So whatever, that's all I can do.
[17:21]It's good, I have two pre-teams, so it's good to know
[17:26]that I have a lot to the core to.
[17:28]I have older kids too, but as you know, but yeah, I don't know.
[17:31]We just do our best, right?
[17:33]But I think, you know, the more of this narrative of compassion,
[17:37]even for the most mean people, I mean, it can't hurt.
[17:40]Yeah, I don't know.
[17:42]Anyway, but I'm sorry that happened to you.
[17:44]And that's okay.
[17:46]Yeah.
[17:47]I'm glad you could definitely have my revenge.
[17:48]It's fun, it's fun to spend some of the memories in this form.
[17:52]It was like a giant, you know, therapeutic, you know,
[17:56]case to throw that stuff in and then, you know,
[17:59]they're absolutely, that is what it was, total therapy.
[18:03]So what are you working on now?
[18:04]You said there won't be another one for a while.
[18:06]So I'm working on the All My Rage script,
[18:09]the screen label for the TV show, which is very exciting.
[18:13]It is that I've been optioned by pictures to start.
[18:15]And so me and my co-writer are working on that right now.
[18:18]And then I have a short story that I'm working on
[18:21]about a very angry fairy who lives in the mountains.
[18:25]And that's almost done.
[18:26]And then I have a big project.
[18:29]I can't share anything about it other than that.
[18:32]It's a fantasy who involves their three main character,
[18:36]main points of view.
[18:38]One is a very angry, you know, prisoner.
[18:42]One is a philosophical sort of warrior prince.
[18:46]And the other one is a kind of sardonic tracker type.
[18:52]And it's been so fun to work on.
[18:55]The thing about writing contemporary, right,
[18:57]is that you can't solve your problems with matching
[19:00]or dragons, or anything, or like a battle scene.
[19:06]So I'm really enjoying being able to kind of be like,
[19:09]oh, battle scene here, it makes it.
[19:12]It makes it really fun to write.
[19:14]Oh, I guess I love that.
[19:15]Dear kids, read your books.
[19:17]They are a little young, they're 12 and 10.
[19:20]And just at their reading level is a little young, too.
[19:24]I actually think that if my 12 year old was reading more,
[19:26]you know, more YA, maybe he would be able to read it
[19:29]because he can have pretty mature topics.
[19:32]But he's super into like Percy Jackson and Greg and
[19:36]and Roshni Chuck's these theories,
[19:38]and he loves skull dugbery pleasant.
[19:40]So we're just, we're like a year away, I think.
[19:43]And then we'll see it.
[19:44]He might just, and I've told him a million times,
[19:46]probably because I'm really insecure about it.
[19:47]I'm like, if you don't like it, you can put it down.
[19:49]It's okay, my feelings will be heard.
[19:51]And he's like, your feelings will totally be heard.
[19:53]And I'm not gonna read the whole thing.
[19:56]I just got the galleys recently for my memoir coming.
[20:00]and I was like sure my kids would care and no.
[20:03]I'm like my daughter who's like, I'm so close to
[20:06]and she's almost 15.
[20:07]I'm like, did you, did you start reading the book?
[20:09]And she's like, it was great.
[20:10]I skimmed it.
[20:11]I was like, you did not.
[20:13]I like you did not.
[20:14]Yeah, they're like, no, no mercy, man.
[20:16]No, oh my gosh.
[20:17]No, it's crazy, it's really, really
[20:20]thankless this whole writing thing anyway.
[20:23]Yeah, it really is.
[20:24]What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[20:27]You know, my advice is there's two things I like to tell authors.
[20:31]The first thing is if you are trying to write
[20:34]and you're struggling to start, get anything on the page,
[20:37]even if it seems like garbage to you,
[20:40]it can always be edited.
[20:41]I always say like so much of writing is editing.
[20:43]I have some 90% of writing for me is editing.
[20:45]I throw a really hideous embarrassing drop onto a page.
[20:49]Don't let anyone see it.
[20:50]And then I go back and I make a better,
[20:52]but I can't do anything if I have an empty page.
[20:55]I can't edit if I have an empty page.
[20:57]So just start, just get something on the page.
[20:59]The second thing I'd say is I feel like there's this,
[21:02]I don't know what you'd call it, not a movement,
[21:04]but there's this sort of thing where people are like,
[21:07]I've done this was my word count for today.
[21:09]And I'm on chapter of law.
[21:11]And I finished edit, like it's very sort of action-oriented
[21:15]writing in, I think that we need to dream a little bit more.
[21:19]We need to let ourselves kind of go back
[21:22]to what we love about writing
[21:24]and those original sort of storytelling
[21:27]of like kind of staring off in the space
[21:29]and imagining a world or imagining a character.
[21:33]I think that that's really the most beautiful part
[21:35]of writing is the dreaming.
[21:36]You know?
[21:37]And so my mother said this one time,
[21:39]and I'm just gonna say it to other people,
[21:41]which is half a writing is dreaming.
[21:42]So what you're self-dream?
[21:44]Just a little bit more.
[21:45]It brings the joy back to writing
[21:47]if you're struggling as a writer.
[21:49]And patience, because sometimes the story takes to teeny.
[21:53]You never know.
[21:55]You never know.
[21:57]So somebody today and can't even do the math quick enough.
[21:59]15 years from 2022, with 37, 2037,
[22:03]your book is coming out to get ready.
[22:05]Yep, 2037 your book is coming out.
[22:07]Yeah, exactly.
[22:09]Yeah, well that'll be something fun to look forward to.
[22:12]Yeah, okay.
[22:13]Well, thank you so much for coming back on.
[22:14]Congratulations.
[22:15]I'm really excited for you to have such a, you know,
[22:18]personally based cathartic and also beautiful.
[22:22]The Jewish is in this book,
[22:24]and I'm really excited for you to congrats.
[22:27]Thank you so much to me.
[22:28]It was a pleasure as always.
[22:29]Okay, you too.
[22:30]All right, have a great day.
[22:31]Take care.
[22:32]Okay, bye.
[22:34]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[22:36]Don't have time to read books.
[22:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[22:39]at Zibioans and at Moms.
[22:41]Don't have time to read books.
[22:42]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibioans.com
[22:45]and sign up for my virtual book club
[22:46]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan Heck,
[22:51]Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[22:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:55]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.