Julie Vick, BABIES DON'T MAKE SMALL TALK (SO WHY SHOULD I?): The Introvert's Guide to Surviving Parenthood
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[0:41]Julie Vic is the author of Babies Don't Make Small Talk.
[0:44]So why should I?
[0:45]The introvert's guide to surviving parenthood.
[0:48]It's a humorous advice book for introverted parents navigating the early years of parenthood.
[0:52]She has written for a New Yorker Daily Shouts, parents magazine, real simple,
[0:56]and mixed sweeties in her net tendency.
[0:58]And most importantly, one of her tweets once appeared in touch weekly.
[1:01]She teaches writing at the University of Colorado, Denver.
[1:04]Welcome, Julie.
[1:04]Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:08]To discuss, babies don't make small talks.
[1:10]So why should I?
[1:11]The introvert's guide to surviving parenthood.
[1:14]Thank you.
[1:14]Thanks so much for having me.
[1:16]This is definitely one of the funniest in a very clever, smart,
[1:22]almost tongue-in-cheek sense of humor.
[1:24]Books that I have ever read about parenting and every chapter was so refreshing,
[1:29]even like I might actually be here to make friends, finding parent friends,
[1:33]and potential at how you talk about how to call a stranger to ask about child's care.
[1:37]It's so funny because I've had to do that so many times.
[1:40]Problems with common advice people like to give you.
[1:43]And then your whole chart of 30 totally ridiculous reasons your baby isn't sleeping.
[1:47]If you overthink things and you know it, exercise class.
[1:50]Anyway, I could go on and on.
[1:51]This is hilarious.
[1:52]So thank you.
[1:53]Great and useful and all of the rest.
[1:55]Okay.
[1:55]Thank you so much.
[1:57]That's great care.
[1:58]Let's start with this whole introvert extrovert thing because I'm constantly in my head
[2:02]about whether or not I am an introvert or an extrovert because or what did you say?
[2:07]Ambivert is like the middle one.
[2:08]Yeah.
[2:09]Ambivert is the middle one.
[2:10]Yeah.
[2:10]That's how people know if they're introverts and extroverts.
[2:14]Yeah.
[2:14]And it's like, I think it is confusing because there's different definitions.
[2:18]And you know, like I think maybe sometimes you might feel extroverted in some situations
[2:23]and not others or vice versa.
[2:24]But I think like one common definition is just about energy.
[2:28]So if you are someone who draws energy from sort of socializing and people, then you
[2:34]are more likely an extrovert.
[2:36]But if those sort of socializing and social situations drain you, you're more likely
[2:41]an introvert.
[2:42]So if you're drained by those situations and then you kind of recharge by being alone,
[2:47]that's kind of more classically introverted, whereas like if those situations kind of
[2:51]give energy and you need them to like, you know, recharge yourself, then that's the opposite.
[2:56]And then an ambivert, yeah, is somewhere in the middle.
[2:59]So maybe you're an ambivert, I'm not sure.
[3:00]I don't know.
[3:01]I know.
[3:02]Did you always know you were an introvert?
[3:04]It's funny because I don't think, so when I was going up, I don't feel like that the
[3:09]term was as well known.
[3:11]Yeah.
[3:12]So I always knew I got called like quiet and shy a lot, which I did not really love,
[3:17]but it was probably like accurate for how I was as a kid too.
[3:20]So I feel like it wasn't maybe until even I probably sort of knew the term, but I don't
[3:25]think I really knew what it was until maybe like in maybe like in my twenties, I started
[3:30]reading about it more.
[3:31]There was like the famous Atlantic like humor piece about caring for your introvert.
[3:36]I think that was the one that sort of talked about this thing about like draining energy,
[3:40]you know, feeling recharged by sort of alone time, quiet time.
[3:43]And so that's I think the first time I kind of like really started to think about it.
[3:47]And then this famous book, season, Keynes book quiet kind of goes into a lot more detail
[3:52]and became very, very popular.
[3:54]And so, and she has like a cultural, more cultural definition of an introvert in there, but
[3:58]I think I fit that very well and I related a lot to that.
[4:01]So, so I think I probably always knew I had these qualities, but I just didn't know what
[4:05]the label was probably.
[4:07]I feel like it depends on which people.
[4:09]Yeah, for social situations that are fun are very different than like draining social
[4:16]situations.
[4:17]No, so I know it gets harder to it is harder.
[4:21]Yeah.
[4:22]And I think like it's different for me to find know that people and I think that's confusing
[4:26]because I think there's also this sort of shyness and social anxiety element in there.
[4:30]And I think I have a bit of that too.
[4:32]So, you know, like I, but the same like if it's people that I'm comfortable around
[4:36]or, you know, situations where I'm having fun, I still, I do still feel like I need
[4:40]to recharge after.
[4:41]Like I enjoy it in the moment, like even if I am, you know, enjoying what's going on.
[4:46]But like, I can't, I feel like if I have a very like, you know, socially booked weekend
[4:51]or something, then I feel kind of drained.
[4:54]Like I feel like, especially if I have really busy scheduled week, then I kind of want
[4:57]like a weekend to like, yeah, I have stuff on the schedule and not have a lot of
[5:01]stuff.
[5:02]So, are you saying that extroverts don't like staying in bed all day?
[5:06]I mean, I think that is like, yeah, you like that.
[5:11]Yeah, like that is ideal.
[5:14]And I think they would have to speak for that.
[5:16]But I mean, sometimes everyone gets like drained, right?
[5:19]Like that's why it's probably confusing too.
[5:21]It's like, everyone feels probably worn out or like their social situations.
[5:26]Like I think almost most people don't love like small talk, you know, and those sorts
[5:30]of things, whether you're extroverted or not.
[5:32]So, but yeah, like I think if you have a preference for those like quieter environments
[5:38]sometimes, then that might mean you that way, but maybe you're kind of both, you think?
[5:42]I know.
[5:43]Of course.
[5:44]Yeah.
[5:45]I don't know.
[5:46]This doesn't help anybody.
[5:47]Yeah, I'm sorry.
[5:48]So, but the funny part about your book or the most interesting is that as a parent, you're
[5:53]thrown into constant social situations and socialization children so that they can make
[5:58]their way through awkward situations 30 years later when they're in it's our responsibility
[6:02]to help them do that.
[6:03]But it's not always so easy whether you're, you know, little maestro's in the playground,
[6:08]you know, I remember when I had little kids and I went to a music class and I was like,
[6:13]oh, maybe I'll meet my mom friends here, you know, but I didn't.
[6:16]Right.
[6:17]Yeah.
[6:18]I'm like looking around.
[6:19]Like how am I going to make friends?
[6:21]Because I was like such a rule of all, right?
[6:22]I didn't want to like miss the music part of the music class.
[6:25]Like, I'm for bed.
[6:26]I miss a table green shakers.
[6:27]I don't know.
[6:29]Yeah.
[6:30]Yeah.
[6:31]I do think like that's one thing that I didn't like appreciate going into parenting that
[6:36]just how much you have to just be in these new social situations and you like, by the
[6:41]nature of it, you're like trying to socialize with different people, you know, like new
[6:47]parents when you're first become a parent and then when your kids were older, it's like
[6:51]about negotiating play dates and all these like, right, classes or things and trying to find
[6:56]what the rate fit for you is or how to even, you know, yeah, like you saw the bridge
[7:00]people situations too.
[7:02]So I think, yeah, I think I didn't like appreciate that going into it and that's part
[7:06]of the reason why it felt like I hadn't quite read a book like this and so something
[7:11]like that that would have been helpful for me when I was younger or when I was first
[7:15]became a parent would hopefully maybe be helpful and also just comic relief, right?
[7:19]Yes, totally.
[7:20]Are you going to write one of these for the kids?
[7:24]Oh, like for like introverted kids?
[7:28]Yeah.
[7:29]I haven't thought about that.
[7:30]It's funny because some people have asked me like, are you going to write, what about
[7:32]for older kids?
[7:33]Because this book has aimed at sort of pregnancy to preschool and some, I've had a cool friends
[7:37]to be like, well, awesome.
[7:38]We need one for college kids and things like that.
[7:40]So I haven't, I've thought a little bit about that but no concrete plans for any of
[7:45]those right now.
[7:46]Yeah.
[7:47]Because kids themselves like are constantly around people and it's hard.
[7:53]I have a mix, I have four kids and I have a mix of introverts next to it and, you know,
[7:58]some people really get excited when we have to go to whatever places and some definitely
[8:02]do not.
[8:03]Yeah.
[8:04]To navigate.
[8:05]It's really hard.
[8:06]I agree.
[8:07]I think that's a whole other thing to navigate.
[8:08]I'm trying to figure out how, like how much to push them out of their sort of social
[8:13]comfort zone, you know, like, think a little bit of that was okay, but then like also
[8:17]letting them kind of be who they want to be.
[8:19]So yeah, I think that's a whole other thing for sure.
[8:22]I went to this.
[8:23]This is probably like against every rule in your book, but I went to the birthday party
[8:28]for a new class with my son a while ago and I didn't know any of the people and he didn't
[8:33]know any of the people and he was sort of hanging out at the very back and I was like,
[8:38]hey, go, go, go sit up there.
[8:40]He was really low and he was like, no, I don't want to go.
[8:44]He refused.
[8:45]Yeah.
[8:46]And I was like, I don't really want to go there either.
[8:49]Yeah.
[8:50]Yeah.
[8:51]We started ran out.
[8:52]I know.
[8:53]I know.
[8:54]It's so bad.
[8:55]I'm like the worst mom, but I was like, I don't want to push you anywhere that I went somebody
[8:57]pushing me.
[8:58]Yeah.
[8:59]Anyway.
[9:00]I totally got that.
[9:01]Like you're not the worst mom.
[9:02]And I think, yeah, like sometimes putting, especially if kids are putting them in, like
[9:06]yourself in their situation, that's like, when my kids are younger, like, it seems like
[9:11]it was more common to have these like full class birthday parties, right?
[9:13]Like in preschool.
[9:14]And I remember like, yeah, we would walk into some of those and they would just be like,
[9:19]freaked out.
[9:20]You know, you would think like, they know all the kids from class, but like, it's a different
[9:24]environment.
[9:25]And it's these house and there's all these parents and all this stuff going on.
[9:26]And I think like, even, yeah, like adults, that's hard to walk into sometimes too, right?
[9:31]And kids too.
[9:32]So I think, yeah, remembering like, oh, it's going to be hard for us.
[9:36]I could too.
[9:37]Yeah.
[9:38]Well, at least we have some guide books.
[9:40]I know.
[9:41]Yes.
[9:42]How did you end up writing a book to begin with?
[9:45]Yeah.
[9:46]So when I was writing like before I had kids, I studied creative writing and journalism and
[9:51]undergrad.
[9:52]And I wrote like a little bit and a little bit of humor.
[9:56]And then after I had my first son, I just, I didn't write for a while.
[10:00]I just felt like it was like, she was trying to figure out parenting was a huge thing, right?
[10:03]And so, but then after I had my second kid and I had less time, for some reason, I was more
[10:08]motivated to write again. And I started writing a lot of, I started getting a lot more into writing
[10:14]these sort of short parenting humor pieces, like McSweeney's types pieces that run partially
[10:18]because like I could write something like that it in small chunks of times that I had, you know,
[10:23]like as a mom, as you know, you don't always have a ton of time. So I felt like I
[10:30]fit it in. And then I just started reading it more and probably more. And then I had some
[10:34]success with it. Like I had some pieces published in big or parenting publications,
[10:38]like parents. And I kind of had always wanted to write a book. So what I was thinking about
[10:43]topics that sort of made sense to do something, I think, in the parenting humor realm,
[10:48]because that's what I had been writing and what I kind of enjoyed doing. And, you know, just
[10:51]thinking about the book that I feel like would have been helpful for me as a parent that didn't
[10:56]seem like it was out there. So that's how I kind of came around to it. And I wrote a proposal
[11:02]as you do for nonfiction books, right? And then queried it, you know, sent it to Angel and
[11:07]said that it signed with the agent. And then down the road, it took a while because we had to revise
[11:12]the proposal and work on building platform and all the stuff that you hear about. And then, you know,
[11:17]eventually she sent it out on submission and books, how the book came to be. Yeah, very cool.
[11:23]Yeah. How did you approach it when she said you had to and who did it get published?
[11:26]Right. Awesome. Look at this. I can't even see my glasses. Yes. So countryman press.
[11:31]Yes. Yeah. They're in front of Norton. So when she said you had to build up your platform and all
[11:38]that, what did you do? Like, how did you you took a deep breath and then what? Yeah. Right. So in like,
[11:43]like, you know, I had heard that I kind of knew that like I had written a nonfiction book
[11:47]proposal before this that kind of didn't go anywhere. And like in retrospect was probably
[11:52]good that it didn't go anywhere. You know, it was like sort of a travel-ish-a-ish book. And I don't
[11:56]think I really it was before. I was pretty young. I don't think you're really noticing. But
[12:01]I sort of in writing it, it was helpful because like I knew that I needed these marketing things
[12:05]into kind of like, solve myself. And then in the intervening time, platform has become such a
[12:10]conversation, right, that I think a lot of nonfiction writers hear that. So what we did, like,
[12:15]I had a lot of publications in rel and like, you know, bigger places like Watch Post and parents
[12:21]and real simple. And so I tried to keep continuing doing that and getting more out there. And then
[12:27]also just building up social media, which is, you know, is a thing, right. So Twitter, it was like
[12:33]kind of my social media of choice. Like it's popular in the comedy world. And I already had like,
[12:38]when I went and when I got the agent, I had a decent amount of followers on Twitter. And she was
[12:42]sort of like, you know, you don't have to be on every platform, but find one. So Twitter is the
[12:48]one that I kind of focused on. And just tried to be active on it, tried to, you know, share things
[12:53]on it, share other, you know, be a good literary citizen, share other people's things and connect
[12:58]with writing groups, you know, in writing communities to kind of help like support each other
[13:03]in those ways too. And so yeah, that was one of the focuses was just like building up social media.
[13:08]And now I like Instagram too, but I'm I feel like Twitter was like my original, my original
[13:14]so still on there, but yeah, I think that was it. And then just thinking through, you know,
[13:19]like other ways I could try to promote a book, you know, that's what you're trying to do with
[13:24]platform, right? Is like, say, this is how I reach the readers that are out there.
[13:29]It's too bad. We can't just line them all up. I know, I know. Where are you? Come on out.
[13:36]You've got some new books for you today. Yeah, I know, like a school assembly, you know, yes,
[13:43]otherwise matching. Yeah, like these are the ones. I know, I mean, that's a
[13:49]ongoing thing to try to figure out. You know, with the book out, I feel like I've learned a lot
[13:52]in the process of having the book on out, but like, yeah, I think it's something to figure out,
[13:58]right? Yeah. All right. Well, what advice would you give for an aspiring author? So yeah, I think
[14:06]like one thing that helps me, and I guess, especially after when I started writing again, after
[14:12]doing a parent, just having small chunks of time, is it? I think I got a lot done with a little
[14:17]bit of time each day. So I think I heard somewhere, you know, if you write a couple hundred words
[14:21]a day, you can write a book in a year. And I think like I had this previously had this notion
[14:27]that I just needed these like, you know, the remote cabinet in the woods. It's a go, like,
[14:32]have this amazing time to focus on a project and just like with parenting, I just don't have that.
[14:37]So I think realizing that you can get stuff done and small amounts of time if you need to,
[14:41]and then just figuring out, you know, figuring out what it is it works for you. Maybe it's like
[14:45]one weekend day that you can work on it for a couple hours, or maybe it's a little bit each day,
[14:50]but I think just like figuring out ways to find little bits of time, and then that can add up
[14:54]to something longer in the long run. Amazing. All right. Well, thank you for this conversation
[15:04]to socially anxious people trying to have a conversation.
[15:09]Oh gosh. It would be so funny if we just got like, you know, a whole zoom of like 30 people who
[15:16]identified as like having a history of social anxiety and and just had, you know,
[15:22]basically like try to get them.
[15:25]I know. You do what you do. But you're getting other people to talk.
[15:30]Great. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I've I've also learned right. I mean, I couldn't even
[15:35]like speak, but I learned and learned and learned and I've gotten practice, especially the last
[15:40]four years doing this over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like you do something more.
[15:44]There is like this exposure there. Yeah. I feel very comfortable in my own zoom room.
[15:50]That's good. But not so much, you know, pick up or whatever. So yeah, yeah,
[15:56]we'll pick up as a whole other like social thing to navigate. Like even extroverted parents
[16:00]told me that they don't they don't love it. Yeah. So like, I don't know. Yeah. That's a whole
[16:06]day. I had a zoom meeting and I really had to get off, but like I couldn't because it was important.
[16:11]And it wasn't it was about another one of my kids who I wasn't picking up. So I like had to listen.
[16:16]And I had to like going to pick up on zoom on my phone, picking up my two other kids,
[16:22]forgetting one kid's friend, but then I went back for him. Yeah. And then like on the street,
[16:26]like back into the car on the way home. And I was like, if you're looking for a way to not be social
[16:32]and pick up. Yeah. Yeah. Most obnoxious thing you can do. Yeah. But I used to like pick up a lot more
[16:39]when it was inside. Now it's like on the sidewalk. Yeah. Hard. I know. It's a different thing.
[16:45]I know. It's tricky. Well, hang in there. All right. You too.
[16:50]Solidarity. Yeah. Thank you so much for talking to me. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
[16:56]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[17:00]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[17:05]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[17:10]lots of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for
[17:15]The Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[17:18]fantastic intro and out trim music.