Albert Samaha, CONCEPCION: An Immigrant Family's Fortunes

[1:24]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids. Check it out, and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things moms don't have time to do. All the authors have been on this podcast. Also, check out my TikTok at with Zibby and Tracy, my other podcast, sex talk with Zibby and Tracy. Check out moms don't have time to write on Medium, and, of course, my new publishing company called Zibby Books. And now, back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids. Hi. Hi. Hello. Enjoy the show. Albert Samaha is the author of Concepcion, An Immigrant Family's Fortunes. Albert is an investigative journalist and inequality editor at BuzzFeed News. A Whiting Foundation creative non fiction grant recipient, he is also the author of Never Ran, Never Will, Boyhood and Football in a Changing American Inner City, which was a finalist for the 2019 Penn ESPN award for literary sports writing. He lives in Brooklyn. Welcome, Albert. Thank you so much for coming on. Moms don't have time to read books to discuss conception and immigrant families fortunes. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here. I have to say I learned so much about you have so much history in here, so much, not just about your culture's immigration, but really America itself and how, you know, this how our country sort of has come to be. And I love how you framed the whole thing up until, like, the American flag outside your home, you know, perhaps being stolen, but really wasn't stolen. Like, the whole trajectory of almost the downfall of America, to be honest, right? Like the dash dreams and what's become of America today. So I feel like your family story kind of illustrates this rise and fall, which is a huge goal in a book. So was that so tell me about your impetus for the book, your idea for writing this book, and if the changing tide, so to speak, were part of why you wanted to get this down. Absolutely. So at first subconsciously,

[3:33]Albert Samaha: until it eventually emerged in my mind what the book would be about about I think it was maybe around 2016 was when I sort of the idea struck me that I wanted to write a story about my family. By that point, I kind of knew a lot of the mythology of my family. I knew the story of my grand auntie Khari dad be being an underground spy in World War two. I knew about my grand my grand uncle who who was a painter and a congressperson. And I knew kind of the general idea that my family had come from prominence in The Philippines. But by 2016, we're talking almost a decade into the recession or after the crash, and I'd seen my elders were struggling financially, my mom, one of them. I think around that time I was reaching the age that many of them were when they came to The States. And so I think the convergence of those two things, me sort of being more interested in wondering what it was like for them at that stage in their lives, while also seeing that sort of the final outcome or the long term outcome of them coming here, sacrificing what they left behind in The Philippines, was them still struggling. It kind of just raised all these questions in my mind. I think my natural instinct as a writer is like, when there are questions that trouble me, need to process it by writing about it, if nothing else for myself. And so I think the sort of arc of American history was just sort of implicit in that personal familial arc of them kind of rising and falling along with the tides of America. The impetus wasn't necessarily to show the rise and fall of this empire. I think that was something that came along later. I just knew it was going be a book about my family. The themes, the big picture ideas, none of that was clear to me yet. That's something that definitely evolved over time. I think if you go back and read the initial book proposal I had back in 2017, 2018 or whatever, a lot of the concepts then ended up in a book weren't there yet. I think that's such a testament to just the process of working on a book project over five years, is that your mind's going to evolve, your ideas are going to evolve, and a lot of the questions you start off with will lead to answers you didn't necessarily plan for. And I think that's kind of the fun part of this project for me. You know what would be fun is if there was some sort of like a writerly contest

[5:39]Zibby Owens: where you took the names and titles off of book proposals and to see if you could even figure out which which book came out of the proposal. Would you be fun? Yeah. Right? Yeah. I don't I mean, this is like, these are the nerdy things I think are fun. But anyway, no, it's true. You never know where your your book is gonna go. And I I think you are joined by many, many people in using writing as a tool to kind of figure out the the noise in in your head and where how to process everything. I I feel like kind of bad for people who don't do that because I'm like, well, how do they process everything? You know? I I don't know. Right?

[6:14]Albert Samaha: Yeah. It's so true because it it it really is like that process of of not wanting the stuff to be in vain. It's I think part of it for me. It's like if I see something bad happening. I remember it was like like years ago, me and a buddy of mine kind of went out and had like a night where we like drank too much and like it was just like a mess. And I woke up feeling really, really bad. I had lost my watch. And it was just a really, really tough morning, like, emotionally, psychologically. I just wrote a short story about it. A fictionalized short story about it because I'm like, well, at least at least my lost watch will not be in vain. At least that that troubling night won't be in vain. I'll have, like, a small piece of art about it.

[6:52]Zibby Owens: Totally. I know. I'm like yeah. I'm getting reading glasses, and it's been like a whole thing because I've always had perfect vision. And in the back of my head, I'm just, like, storing away these little tidbits because I'm like, well, soon I'm gonna write a whole thing about, like, what it's like to be middle aged and get reading glasses. Not that anybody really cares, but other middle aged people getting reading glasses might care. Anyway yes. But I don't know. Anyway, the book talks a lot about your identity, right, and your identity growing up and being from The Philippines, from your your family's history in The Philippines and, you know, even talking to your cousin being like him saying at one point, like, we had maids. Do know I mean? Like, we had it good. Like, what are we doing here? You know? Like, what and then you're growing up in America and and staking this claim out for yourself. At one point in the book, you said your mother was trying really hard to raise you almost to be white, and yet you, at that time, actually wanted to be black. So there were because of all the cultural role models and things that were going in. And then your your main identity ended up being found through football, which as a family of football loving people, I'm like very interested in that element too. So tell me a little bit about and that, of course, is like the most American thing you can hang your hat on. Right? I mean, football. So tell me a little bit about that, especially that time of your life.

[8:06]Albert Samaha: Yeah. I mean, I think it's that kind of age growing up for any person about it's many times about finding identity, right? Especially as you get to that prepubescent adolescent stage. And I think that those years, I had a very in those years, I was very conscious of the process of figuring out, who am I? What kind of style do I have? Very conscious of the effect that you almost overcompensate. You want to prove to the world you're this type of person. And it always is one of those things that I would always sort of look back at and sort of cringe at my lack of understanding of what does it mean to be a Filipino American, a person who is neither white nor black in America? Where do I fit in? Those questions were already percolating at the time. I think one of the things I enjoyed about this process is that these memories that in my mind I cringed at make for really good material afterwards, you know? And it's part of that thing too of like, well, least it's not in vain. But also it's I mean, I think throughout the book, I think it's always if there's someone to be poked fun at, I hope it's like me as a narrator, right? Is that like one purpose I hope to serve as a narrator is to serve as like a proxy for ideas I hope to undermine. Because better to undermine myself than to undermine others, I think, because I have an insight into why I felt this way and can explore it. It ended up being the section of the book I think I enjoyed writing the most, going back to those particular years where I did have a lot of memories that I thought about often but had never really reflected on in mind. So much of this book process was either going back in deep history, which were based on interviews, or kind of going back to recent history, which was already kind of baked into my mind as stuff I knew I was going to write. Kind of there was a sweet spot of years of childhood that I was very familiar with, but had never really reflected on it. Was part of it. And I think it sort of goes to your first question of how this is a book that it's more about the history of America than about the history of The Philippines. And I think that's very much a product of a lot of the ideas that developed in terms of kind of the identity lane. Because I think when I initially came into the book, the sort of elevator pitch or whatever, was the idea that this is an immigration. This is a book about immigrants. And what I realized midway through writing it is that it's not a book about immigrants. It's a book about the children of immigrants. They're really the core voice, the core perspective frame of reference is from the children of immigrants. That's to me what I hope would make the book more unique is that as common as immigrant narratives are in America, land of immigrants, those are far more often in the stories of those who sort of are left to kind of carry on that legacy. And that's when I sort of realized like, oh, this book actually is as much about me, if not more about me, than it is about the other characters. Even though those characters may have more sort of face time or more scene time than me as a character in many chapters, that the sort of frame of reference is what is it like to look back onto that? I meant to question that and to develop kind of what does it mean to be American. Like me as an American, it had to be an American book because that's sort of what I know best. I can't tell a story about like the history of The Philippines and what it means to be Filipino because that's not my experience. That's not the frame of reference that have. And so to me, was this book in a lot of ways, kind of the core intellectual arc of the book is this journey of me figuring out what it means to be American.

[11:38]Zibby Owens: And I loved how you sort of tied it up at the end with your half sisters coming from Beirut, and you're being like, well and them thinking, like, you know, the TikTok influencers are the coolest things ever and, what they're wearing and, you know, how there is still something so magnetic or there is a leadership element still to the to America that hopefully will, I don't know, come back or something. But even in popular culture, if nothing else, which is great. You said something funny about the football and about, like, even learning how to manage your own emotions. And I, you know, I also really enjoyed this part because, you I was trying to get to know you as the writer and everything. But you said, before games, I delivered speeches about shocking the world. At halftime, I'd slam my helmet into lockers and expletive filled tantrums denigrating our efforts. After each loss, I sobbed in the locker room, face buried in my gloved hands with a teammate or two to share in the anguish. Our poor girlfriends would be waiting in the parking lot an hour after the game's conclusion, asking anyone exiting the locker room, are they still in there crying?

[12:44]Albert Samaha: That's another example of, like, those cringeworthy moments that make us a great material looking back. If I didn't I didn't have a book to put that on to put that in, it would just kind of linger in my head. It's like I mean, and I wanted the book to be filled with the sort of stories that I just like tell my friends. Like, I wanted the book to sound like you were just sitting next to me at like a cafe and asking me what high school was like. And like, that's one of the stories I always tell. But I do think one of the challenges of, for me, of like memoir writing is that the when I sort of came into it, I had this list of like, here are these vivid, scenic memories that surely are going to be part of the book. And I start to realize that a lot of these memories that I held very vividly in my mind did not necessarily have significant narrative impact on the course of events in the book or on my life. And that sometimes the inflection point at a certain stage was not this kind of vivid memory of this happening at lunchtime, but actually some other less vivid memory from the vague, more abstract memory was the day things actually changed type thing. I think part of this process was kind of figuring out which, you know, as a journalist, the challenge is usually getting enough information to tell the story, where here is this overflow of information and it's figuring out it's like a block of marble that you have to chisel out the figure out of. And that to me was, I think, the most challenging part. It's like these scenes or anecdotes I thought were hilarious, I thought were just interesting vivid scenes that I was excited to write, but had absolutely no impact on the course of my life or the course of anyone else. So it's like, oh, that that should be part of the book then. And I think separating memories that were vivid from memories that were actually meaningful

[14:27]Zibby Owens: to the story was a really interesting process that required, like, really a lot of reflection. I needed all those years to kind of have to process all that. Yeah. I feel like that's one of those things that you you need to see as you're writing. Right? Like, where is it even going? Like, to to your point at the beginning. Like, maybe these scenes do have a purpose, but if you end up trying to prove a different point with the book. I mean, I feel like one of your underlying points was that you you have this sense of guilt about your mom, honestly, and where she has ended up in life. And here you are. She's come over. She gave up all this, you know, privilege that she had in The Philippines to give you this life, and you describe your life, and and you have become this huge success and and all the rest and have lived out sort of the the dream. Right? The fantasy followed all the steps and everything. And yet, now it's the end of her life or towards the end of her life. I shouldn't say that, but as we all are getting older. And it's there's no clear path to really financial security in the country. And her attempts I mean, I was heartbroken when you talked about how she finally got this job in March '20 or February 2020, and then, of course, was, like, furloughed in March. And I was like, oh my gosh. She just cannot get a break. Right? It just felt like almost helpless. And I I could feel you kind of trying to sort out how to deal with that. Right? Like, how do you, as the son, deal with that? How do you help? How do you and you're, you know, you're obviously doing things like coming to her rescue and making sure she's not scam scammed by these Internet creeps and things like that. And that was a hilarious scene, by the way, with the two of you laughing and everything. But it's it's almost like I could feel you being like, what am I supposed to do here? I mean, what what am I supposed to do? Is that sort of how you're feeling about it now? And, like, what have you come to any conclusions?

[16:12]Albert Samaha: Basically, no. Not really. And and, know, like, it's that like, so many aspects of that are just unresolved. Right? And I think one thing that sort of frayed my thinking on both how to write those and how to think about and process those aspects was just like in my work as a reporter, I like knowing how common place sort of the arc of my mom's story in America is, and like speaking to people almost literally every day who describe similar, oftentimes like much worse situations financially, but kind of rooted in this idea of I mean, so much of it stems from the crash in 'eight. And I mean, it's bigger than that, right? There were so many other forces. There's larger economic trajectories in the country, But much like COVID, like the crash in 'eight accelerated those things and exposed those things and kind of in a moment when for people without much margin for error that dissolved the margins stuff. So this arc of kind of the crash hits and things are bad. And I think everyone kind of acknowledges that where it's like, Okay, this horrible catastrophe has happened. We're all knocked off our feet. And then in the years since, it's been this rebuilding process, right? That everyone sort of from that point, from that kind of ground zero point of the crash, everyone's been trying to rebuild and figure things out. And then now, more than a decade later, a lot of folks are still sort of in that process and have never fully made themselves whole again. And eventually, at some point within those twelve years, thirteen years, you realise that what seemed to be kind of a temporary setback is actually a new normal. What seemed to be a temporary struggle is indefinite. And that there is no necessary making it all back. That it's not as simple as it was then. That a lot of the elements and one of the things I try to get out of the book is that a lot of this question of like a lot of the like all that money we made in the 2000s, was that a reflection of was that the normal state of things? And then this was just sort of like a blip that we have to revert back to the normal state of things. Or was that the blip? Were those years of housing bubble and inflated market and kind of money out of thin air and all that money coming in, us being able to afford the Benz, was that actually the exceptional moment? And everything else is just a normal thing. Like, but it's impossible to see that see that at the time. So I think for me, it has been this part, I guess, I mean, the book's part of processing it. I think one of the lines early in the book that kind of gets at that is is that, yeah, it's it's no longer I think I I think the line was like no longer their struggles were no longer a a toll to pay on the road to easier days, but but but permanent struggle. So that idea of the mindset shifting from this is just a temporary thing that we're going to get over soon to like, oh no, this is just how things are. And the importance of that recognition because you make different decisions when you recognize that a moment is indefinite as opposed to temporary, you make more urgent decisions. And so that sort of raised my urgency of like, oh, this is actually we need to adjust our financial partnership in a way that is not just about building up debt knowing that a windfall will come, that we have to, like, create, a stable system. And I think the the difficulty of finding that stability first starts with having to recognize that it is indefinite and there is no sort of help around the corner. Interesting.

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[22:41]Zibby Owens: So the real question is, do people comment on your dimples all the time? Because I also have dimples, and people are always commenting on it. And I feel like there should be more attention, like, to people who have dimples. Like, maybe there's some personality traits or maybe there's some commonality or I don't know. Anyway, thoughts We on

[23:01]Albert Samaha: do all the time. It's the first thing. It's the first thing. I'm staying with you. And I do think there are similar personality traits that are not necessarily tied to genetics but tied to sort of growing up with the affirmation of people always telling you how nice your dimples are. So, might just be more like positive, fun loving people because we feel special and we feel kind of empowered. Like, I have no doubt that my life is at least 15 to 25% easier just from the subconscious biases that people give me from having the dimples. Wow. That is I'll so take what I can get. Oh my gosh. I'd never thought I'll take what I can get. We all need our edge. Yeah. We all need our edge. Okay. Hashtag dimples.

[23:44]Zibby Owens: Love it. And are you still are you a football fan? Do you like to watch football still? I am. I do. You know, with

[23:50]Albert Samaha: oh, yeah. Love love football. I watch it with a lot more of sort of the the the clear eyed guilt, I think, than I did before, as as maybe a lot of us do. But I think there was a point where I realized that it's just a part of my life. It's just like I will just like, you know, I'm I'll still even when I read, like, that Uber pays its drivers poorly, it's like, oh, I wanna report on it, and I feel bad about this, but I still kinda gotta still gotta take this Uber. You know? Like or, like or those photos of what I like ordering Amazon stuff where it's like, I feel the same way about football, where it's like, life is too short to fight every battle. And I hope and I hope to advocate that, like, players get health care funds and, you know, people have more awareness about the fact that, like, you know, the the people that make millions of dollars in the NFL, we're talking millions of dollars stretched over, like, three years. That's their entire earnings potential, you know, and that that football is like a disposable labor force in ways much more extreme than any other sport, where the average literal lifespan and career lifespan is shorter and there's more players, right? It's a machine, it's a warehouse. So I acknowledge all that to myself to help alleviate or to mitigate the guilt, at least. So that, like, by the time the visional weekend starts, I've already processed like, yeah, this is fucked up. Is fucked up. But anyway, you know, let me pop on my television and enjoy two days straight of football. So, I still watch. It's just always going to be a part of me, you know? Like, I'm sure there are going to be very real historical comparisons with like Roman gladiators. Obviously big, many differences in many ways. They weren't paid. They were often slaves and stuff like that. But in the way that when we think back to the Roman times, that gladiators was just a part of it and a part of it that we all sort of now agree with, like, what a horrible thing that they had. But also we don't think of sort of savages for that. We don't think of them as brutes for participating in that entertainment. We're just like, well, that was just like what they did. That's what they did back then. I think it'll be sort of similar now where it's like, you know, we know it's kind of messed up, and we hope that things get better in terms of how players are treated and that, you know, I still don't believe that the rule changes will make a significant difference than like health and safety because I think it's the sub concussive hits that are long term. But I think to me, the most important thing is acknowledging that is let's not sit and pretend a couple of rule changes are going drastically change the long term health implications. Let's admit to ourselves. This is a brutal sport that will really mess people up. And yes, as long as they have the informed consent and they're making an active choice that they know what they're getting into. And as long as like the NFL is providing them with proper like health care and medical treatment, I can at least feel Okay knowing that. But I still don't know if that's fully the case. So I don't know if I could feel Okay about that. But to answer your question, yes, I still lost football. And I'm a Niners fan, so I'm feeling good these days. Oh, wow. Was wondering who who you were rooting for. Yeah. Yeah. My what I shouldn't even say this. I was gonna say my son often changes, like, midway through the game. Whoever's, like, winning, he's like, well, now I'm now I'm this fan. I don't know. I was like that as a kid. I was like that as a kid. I think that's great. I think that's a great way to, like, develop a positive emotional relationship with sports as opposed to to say that. You know? Because I feel like I, early on, became, like, a Bay Area sports fan. Mhmm. And there were some really, like, difficult years where, like, when the Warriors were really bad and and the Giants had some tough playoff losses. And I would sometimes just hop on like, know what? I don't feel like being a Warrior fan right now. Let me watch the King, Chris Weber, because I I was able to develop some positive memories. So especially if, like, if your family has teams that are not that are struggling, it's it's a useful thing to hold them over in the meantime.

[27:39]Zibby Owens: Well, I'm sure you're working on another book, and I'm I'm curious what you are doing after this book. But maybe there's like a football themed book in your future too. I would be interested in, the impact of the red zone on on the trajectory of of how people watch and consume football and attention span and and and fandom and I don't know. There's probably a book like this, but I feel like you could write that. I think so. I I'll always I'll always be connected to football. I always be interested in football.

[28:07]Albert Samaha: Part of me also feels like I'm, like, worried about being too connected to football. My first book was about football. I followed this youth football team in Brownsville, Brooklyn. Yep. It was sort of very focused on, like, that community. Wasn't about, like, NFL stuff. It's kind of the bigger Alright. Yeah. Stuff you're you're talking about. And then the second book, I had that whole chapter about football. So and I I played college football, and, like, that's usually mentioned in, like, reviews and stuff. So a small part of me is like, oh, man. If, like, if I write too much about football well, I'm not over it. I'm not over it. But part of me is that, like, I don't wanna be, like, shoehorned. It's like, oh, that's the football guy. You know? I don't know. So maybe I didn't even think that was a risk. Okay. Sorry. I didn't even think that was, like, on the horizon as a risk. But, yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. Never ran. Never will. Boyhood and football and a changing American inner city. I know, but that's not exactly what I meant. But okay. Alright. Anyway. Alright. Anyway. I still enjoy it. And it's probably like an unfair self like, it's probably a reflection of my insecurities of, like, you know, coming up as, like, no one had a football background, always being worried. Like, people only think I cared about sports. And so I've always been like and I came up as a sports writer. So I've always been, like, insecure about. But I don't know. I really I'm interested, like, the NFL and, like, the business of it. And I would love to do one of those, like, follow a team for yearbooks, like, Collisional Crossers or some of the like, if you can get access. So, like, it's, like, it's on somewhere on the horizon. I don't know if he'll do the next one because of those insecurities. But I think at some point,

[29:30]Zibby Owens: once I have, like, enough books under my belt. So it's like, well, he only has, like, two books out of my book. I get you. Well, I honestly I I mean, I think anybody, you know, looking at this on the shelf would not be like, oh, just another sports writer writing another sports book. It's like this it's like very literary immigrant, you know, reported anyway, whatever. Okay. What is next for you and what advice would you have for aspiring authors? I don't know what's next. I

[29:56]Albert Samaha: think about it a lot. I have like vague ideas. I think the next project that I'm like working on, like jotting ideas down and start to like gather some early string. I wanted to give myself more time to sort of process and transition this time around than the first time around where I sort of started this book like a year before the first book came out. And that was like, that was fine. But it was it was like, I feel like I've been working two jobs for like eight years. So one of my goals has been to like slow down a little bit and like take a step back, read broadly, explore some curiosities, develop my inner child once more and like, just like, you know, read about interests that I haven't thought about in a while and come from a fresh place, right? Like I want the next book to be like from a different writer, basically, like with a different set of knowledge and interests. And so, yeah, I don't know yet. I definitely know I want it to be I want it to be different than the first two books, whatever that means. I want it to feel different, like a different texture. And in terms of advice, I think, I mean, for I think anyone, like working on a book, I really do believe that like, the more time you can put into it, the better it will be. And I mean that in a very linear sense, like we're into infinity, where if you spend one hundred years on a book, you would be like better than if you'd spend fifty years and so on. And it's kind of just that like, it's all just like that point of diminishing returns and like, you know, you can't obviously practically spend twenty years on a book because, well, you've got to get paid for it and two, you're probably going be sick of it by then. But but but like, I don't think I could imagine spending less than like five years on a book or four years because as we talked about earlier, so many of the ideas just kind of need time to manifest and process. And just like those nights, you're just sort of like lying in bed thinking about the project or when, for me, a lot of the ideas sort of just kind of chisel away at them. Right? It's not like there's these it's not that there's these major breakthroughs that just come while you're writing. It's like it comes when I'm standing in the shower just kind of thinking about some chapter and, like, how to connect some threads together. And they don't happen every time I think about it in the shower, but it's like chipping away at a wall knowing that eventually you get to you don't know when you'll get to the end of the wall, which will eventually break through. And so I think you sort of have to earn the breakthroughs. And I think it's about knowing that they're not always going to come. Like I always tell, you know, reporters how like so much of reporting is failure. It's like you call 100 people, 95 of them are going to not talk to you or not respond or hang up in your face. And you just have to know you have to make the 100 calls or the five calls. If you need five calls, have to make 100 calls. You have to know that coming in. And I think it's like writing a book where it's like if you want the ideas to develop, you have to give them time. You have to do things that inspire the ideas. Go to museums and It's not just the writing of sitting down typing and doing interviews and researching. It really does require a lot of thought. And the people I often feel bad for are the seemingly fortunate people that like you write a big magazine article, publisher hits you up like, Oh, this is great. It's a pretty simple book. You have eighteen months. And naturally, that process will just be a process of just sort of expanding the story you already have because you only have eighteen months to develop it. But I think to sort of create a whole new story, a brand new story, I think requires more time. So I think my top advice is like, give yourself as much time as you can. Whether that's like working the job you need to work to pay the bills that you can like spend nights working on the book or like or or chipping away double dipping if you're a journalist with like some of the other projects you're working on through your day job. Mhmm. But I didn't go I didn't go on book leave for my first book, and then for the second book, I probably would have like six weeks of book leave. And so for me, was like, yeah, I couldn't have done that in a year. I kind of had to stretch it out. But I think it worked out fine, like in terms of developing the idea. So that's that's that's what I'd say is like the more time you can buy yourself, the easier, the more fulfilling I think it'll be. Awesome. Amazing.

[34:00]Zibby Owens: Thank you, Albert, for coming on. And I will be thinking of you and your mom, and I'm hoping she's okay. And, you know, all of your your story, it it really I don't know. It just really sunk in and was very powerful. So I'm really glad I got to read about your life. So thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Pleasure. Great chatting. Okay. Okay. Alright. Take care. Thank you. You too. Okay. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.