Lisa Barr, WOMAN ON FIRE: A Novel
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:05]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:32]And now, back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[0:37]Hi, hi, hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:41]Lisa Barr is the author of Woman on Fire, a novel.
[0:45]She's the award-winning author of The Unbreakables and the Historical Thriller Fugitive Colors,
[0:50]a suspenseful tale of stolen art, love, lust, deception, and revenge on the eve of World War II.
[0:56]A novel one that I, P, P, Y, if he gold medal for best literary fiction and first prize at the Hollywood Film Festival.
[1:02]In addition, Lisa served as an editor for the Jerusalem Post, managing editor of today's Chicago Woman,
[1:08]managing editor of Moment Magazine, and as an editor reporter for the Chicago Sun Times.
[1:12]Among the highlights of her career, Lisa covered the famous handshake between the late Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin,
[1:18]the late PLO leader Yasser Arafat, and President Bill Clinton at the White House.
[1:23]Lisa has been featured on Good Morning America and today for her work as an author, journalist, and blogger.
[1:28]She lives in the Chicago area with her husband and three daughters, AKA Drama Central.
[1:33]And by the way, actress Sharon Stone has now optioned Woman on Fire with her production company to turn it into something on the screen,
[1:41]which is super exciting.
[1:42]I adore Lisa Barr, and I'm so proud of her.
[1:45]This book was really great.
[1:46]Welcome back on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books, Lisa, for Women on Fire.
[1:52]Your latest novel.
[1:53]Congratulations.
[1:54]Thank you so much.
[1:56]So great to be with you, Zivi.
[1:58]You too.
[1:59]And I'm so glad we were hanging out at books and books in Miami for a little bit.
[2:03]And I'm sorry you left before we got to take a picture, but it was so fun to see you there.
[2:07]It was so fun.
[2:08]It was such a surprise.
[2:10]You know, just to Rochelle called and said, Zivi's going to be there.
[2:14]I'm like, we got in our car and ran over.
[2:16]Oh, yay.
[2:17]That was so great.
[2:19]Well, I got to know you through your first book, The Unbreakables, and then through Rochelle,
[2:23]and then all of our events.
[2:24]And I don't know.
[2:25]Somehow, we've all just gotten to know each other.
[2:27]And it's been so great.
[2:28]And I was so excited when Woman on Fire came out because this cover is like amazing.
[2:35]And now I am even more excited because your book is so good.
[2:39]It's so good.
[2:40]It's really well written.
[2:42]It's like, propulsive.
[2:43]You don't want to put it down.
[2:45]I'm really just, I feel like this pride for you.
[2:48]I don't know.
[2:49]I'm really excited for you.
[2:50]Awesome.
[2:51]Thank you.
[2:52]I mean, you know, it is such a great thing in the book world.
[2:55]I mean, I feel like we all really try to lift each other.
[2:58]So, you know, I know when your new book is coming out and like, and all your anthologies,
[3:03]you know, it's the same thing.
[3:05]You just, I'm like, go Zivi.
[3:07]I just feel so much excitement about it.
[3:10]You know, just because we know how hard this business can be.
[3:13]And it is great when you have people like you to, you know, lift everybody or lift us.
[3:18]So, thank you.
[3:19]Well, but the joy is when you dive into a book and get so hooked.
[3:26]And like, it's great.
[3:27]It's the best feeling.
[3:28]Like, it doesn't get old.
[3:29]Okay.
[3:30]Tell everybody what your book is about.
[3:32]Please.
[3:33]Okay.
[3:34]So I brought my, this is the arc.
[3:35]The book is coming out very soon.
[3:37]And it's woman on fire is about a 24 year old.
[3:42]Very savvy young journalist who gets embroiled in a major international art scandal centered around a Nazi looted painting.
[3:51]And so I loved writing this book.
[3:53]I wrote it all during COVID lockdown.
[3:56]And it's got kind of everything.
[3:58]I love to write and read history, suspense, art, risky journalists to pursuits.
[4:03]And, you know, of course, strong, fiery women.
[4:06]So it was really fun to write.
[4:09]And also, you know, difficult the parts that I was still in art and the Holocaust.
[4:14]So, you know, it's the whole shebang.
[4:16]And I really loved writing this book.
[4:19]So, yeah.
[4:20]Well, it's really good.
[4:22]And so, okay.
[4:24]You have all these different storylines interweaving.
[4:26]And the elder man who started the shoot company.
[4:29]What is his name again?
[4:30]What is his name?
[4:31]Ellis.
[4:32]Ellis.
[4:33]Okay.
[4:34]So Ellis is one of the main characters.
[4:35]And he has been hiding his upbringing.
[4:38]Right?
[4:39]He pretends that he's like a diamond guy.
[4:41]And really, he survived the war.
[4:43]And maybe I shouldn't reveal all this.
[4:45]No, it's okay.
[4:46]It's okay.
[4:47]It was all pretty early.
[4:48]So his mother dies in front of him in this horrific Nazi era.
[4:53]Like, what, I mean, it never gets old.
[4:56]But it's like in every Holocaust era, World War II era thing,
[4:59]there are these horrific tragedies that happen all the time.
[5:02]And it doesn't get any better just because there are so many of them.
[5:06]You know what I mean?
[5:07]So anyway, he talks about his trauma and how he reinvents himself,
[5:11]as so many people did, how he lived in the sewers,
[5:13]and has to come over and end up starting basically becoming
[5:17]but no oblonic, essentially.
[5:19]Exactly.
[5:20]Exactly.
[5:21]Totally.
[5:22]And then now he's nearing the end of his life in his 70s with,
[5:25]and is trying to come to terms with some of the stuff in his past
[5:29]and this one painting and his mother and all of the stuff
[5:32]and how that intersects with all of these other forces.
[5:37]Like, the young journalist who, by the way, is so amazing,
[5:40]just plowing right in and being like,
[5:42]I'm going to get this job.
[5:44]I mean, women on fire, like she is the woman on fire in this book
[5:47]for sure with her determination.
[5:49]And I don't know.
[5:50]I could never do that in a job entry.
[5:52]I just sat there politely.
[5:53]And the idea that I would blow past security
[5:56]and get a job for myself the way she did.
[5:58]Anyway, and then you have the past and the present
[6:01]and like the reporter who has already been in this,
[6:06]there's so many things.
[6:07]How did you, and of course, the older man
[6:11]who was hiding all the art and then the art dealer woman
[6:16]who, I mean, it's like the characters are so visual
[6:19]and I know we've sort of chit chatted that there may be
[6:22]some news about an adaptation or something going on
[6:25]that you can't reveal yet, but probably
[6:27]we'll be revealed by the time this podcast episode comes out
[6:30]but it is so visual and the way you're pacing,
[6:33]I'm sorry, I'm like rambling and rambling,
[6:35]but no, no.
[6:36]Your pacing is so good.
[6:37]You go from this to that to this to like the grandson
[6:40]who looks like the uniformer.
[6:42]It's like, in recovery and then like you learn about more
[6:45]recovery.
[6:46]And then there's like so many things and yet it all like
[6:48]links up.
[6:49]I don't know.
[6:50]It's very cool.
[6:51]It wasn't even a question.
[6:52]That was really cool.
[6:53]Yeah, I first thought thank you because you gave such,
[6:56]I'm sitting on the edge of my seat listening to you
[6:59]and all the different things.
[7:01]I think what it was is I wanted to create this one painting
[7:06]that in my mind, you know, as when you write historical
[7:10]fiction or suspense, you want the reader to walk away
[7:13]with something, some sort of knowledge of the history kind
[7:16]of through the back door of fiction.
[7:18]So I knew that I wanted to create this major artwork based
[7:23]on a composite of paintings that were destroyed or confiscated
[7:27]or looted during the Holocaust by the Nazis.
[7:30]So this is woman on fire is the painting and by it's the last
[7:34]major work by an expressionist artist who's murdered.
[7:37]But it's almost as if the painting given all the things
[7:41]that you just discussed is a character herself as well.
[7:45]And so I wanted to create all these people because this is real
[7:50]life where so many heirs of those who were murdered and during
[7:55]the Holocaust lost all their assets, art being a major asset
[7:59]are trying to reclaim their families paintings and lots of
[8:05]legal work, et cetera, et cetera going on.
[8:07]But I wanted to showcase through this one painting how all
[8:11]these people are connected and what it means to each of them.
[8:15]And so through that it's almost like a spider web and how
[8:19]they're all going to connect and intersect.
[8:22]So what I did in order to make this work is I literally separated
[8:27]each character and gave them a composite down to what their
[8:31]scent is, what they smell like, what they eat, what they like
[8:35]and the things that would connect each of them.
[8:38]And so I was able with that to kind of cross over and
[8:43]intersect and give the reader sort of direct lineage to the
[8:48]painting with each of these characters.
[8:50]So it was a lot of work.
[8:52]You should have seen my dining room table covered with, you
[8:56]know, cards and sticky notes.
[8:58]And the main character, Jewel's Roth, 24 year old journalist,
[9:02]was a lot of me in my past life.
[9:06]That like, you know, there's real stuff that we can get into.
[9:10]That was my own personal story that I gave to her.
[9:14]So it was very fun writing her sort of where I am now,
[9:18]this like crusty old season journalist, you know,
[9:22]author being able to kind of go back to when I was idealistic
[9:26]and nothing but the truth.
[9:28]And I'll get there.
[9:29]No kids at that point.
[9:31]So I could do anything in sort of a fearless way.
[9:34]And yeah.
[9:35]So it was, as you're saying, creating all these characters with
[9:39]everyone having their own, you know, angle toward this painting.
[9:44]Wow.
[9:45]And the book came together.
[9:46]Well, let's go back to Jewel's and the similarities to you.
[9:50]Yes.
[9:51]So Jewel's gets the bug essentially for journalism by this,
[9:55]by becoming an anonymous source and what becomes a Pulitzer Prize
[9:58]winning case.
[10:00]for a paper. But then it goes too far with the main guy at the paper and so she feels like
[10:06]she's thrown away her entire career. Did something like that happen with you?
[10:11]Yes. That is my story. I, in high school, when I was a senior, I was used as bait to
[10:20]break a sex trafficking ring and we did. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So that's my story that I gave to her.
[10:29]I embellished and changed it for her where all these people were brought to justice that were
[10:35]kind of prominent people. In my case, it was sort of these CD characters who were involved in a
[10:42]terrible sex trafficking ring. And so I wanted to give her something as this anonymous girl
[10:50]and showing that she was going to be a journalist in a way back when like the bug got to her,
[10:56]you know, very early on. And yes, you know, myself and, you know, so many other women have had
[11:02]sort of these experiences, me too, type of experiences. Mine was different than jewels. But I wanted
[11:09]to give her something that would really impact and affect her and how she would go after things in
[11:17]life, like sort of a real turning point for her, you know, as a young journalist and how she would
[11:22]handle things. So later on, when a relationship starts to happen, she has to make a decision,
[11:29]like, you know, do I want to get involved with a source? Do I want to do this? Like this,
[11:35]it triggers things in her. So yes, that was a lot of me in jewels. And yeah, and I enjoyed
[11:44]writing her and showing how you can survive and get past things and still use those things
[11:50]to opt for good. And so jewels is a special character to me, for sure.
[11:56]Oh, I could definitely see you tossing aside like a navy sheet dress for some
[12:02]black skin type number to show up here.
[12:04]Forever 21, yeah. Forever 21. I'm like, okay. That sounds really good. But you know, in that,
[12:10]in that scene too, you know, this home with me too, and not to, I don't know, I feel,
[12:15]I have to tread lightly in this in this whole topic. But I think what you did so well in the book
[12:20]is how you can want to get together with someone and not want what happens afterwards.
[12:26]Right. Like she, she wants to hook up with the sky, but she, that doesn't mean that anything
[12:31]that comes after is okay. Like desire on the part of women is there's nothing wrong with that,
[12:38]just because you desire to be with somebody doesn't mean you want it completely out of your control
[12:43]immediately. Right. And so and yet it, like that's what gets women into trouble. It's like,
[12:48]well, oh, you know, you wanted to, you know, you didn't, this was, you know, you kissed him first
[12:52]or whatever it is. Like, okay, yeah, but does that mean that I deserve whatever comes next?
[12:57]Exactly. Exactly. No, I agree with you. And, you know, I was trying very careful because I wanted
[13:03]to keep the focus on, you know, the painting and the history not to make it a, you know, a me too
[13:09]story, but I did want it. It's just a tiny passage. Right. It's a tiny aspect of her background,
[13:15]but it's a big aspect of why she does the things that she does or how she feels about things.
[13:21]So, you know, all these things, I mean, we could address that, that happened in our youth,
[13:26]make us who we are and the things we fight for today. So that's what I wanted to give to her.
[13:33]You wrote it really in a such a good way. Let me see it dug you in this passage, I think. You said
[13:38]she vowed to never let anyone or anything get in the way of a story again, but she did exactly
[13:43]as the man had asked. She told no one and let it go. And yet it never really went away,
[13:48]it cleaved and clotted her until it became a new layer of skin, thicker, tougher, and impenetrable.
[13:55]Yeah. That's beautiful. Absolutely. And I think that piece also made her the journalist
[14:03]that she is and she will become toward the end of the story. You know, she will really rise
[14:10]and learn. So, you know, she will have a journey here. Wow. Yeah. You also showed you learning
[14:19]about all of the Holocaust stolen things and you casually put in all these facts and figures like
[14:25]600,000 stolen artworks and, you know, millions more that you don't know and how they were
[14:30]shuttled off to different countries and how galleries tried to do that. Tell me about your research
[14:36]into all of that and how much you knew. And did you really go see, was this you who saw something
[14:40]at your Butmitzvah, like, jewels? Like, did you go learn that? Right? She had something in her
[14:45]Butmitzvah. Like, when did you learn all about this? And do you have, did you always have like a
[14:51]fascination with this stolen artwork piece? That's a great question. So, I'm a daughter of a Holocaust
[14:58]survivor. And I think it was in the early 90s, which is, you know, in terms of timeline,
[15:05]jewels would have, you know, had about mitzvah. But I went to an exhibit at the Art Institute
[15:11]about stolen art and the Nazis. And it was like the first time this is coming out. Like,
[15:16]this is before monuments men. This is before a woman and gold. This is early on. And I went in there
[15:22]and I had this ah-ha moment. I could not believe learning that Hitler was an artist in a
[15:29]mad man, a murder. How could someone have that sensitivity? And so then I just started getting
[15:35]hooked. So, for my first novel, Fugitive Colors, it was my debut novel. It's about stolen art
[15:42]as well, but about the painters themselves. So, I did four years of research before I would even
[15:48]allow myself to write. I was in Paris. I traveled. I interviewed. I documentaries. I, you know,
[15:55]this is where my journalistic skills came in handy. I left no stone on turn. So, not that I became
[16:01]a quasi expert, but I really knew this subject. And so it was so deep and so heavy that when I got
[16:10]to the unbreakable, it's like I needed a break from that. I needed to write something fictional, sexy,
[16:16]you know, art as well. She's a sculptor. But something totally different. But then with woman on fire,
[16:22]I needed to go back to it. And what led me back, I was actually working on something
[16:29]having to do with the Warsaw ghetto uprising. And I put that aside. And what led me back was in
[16:35]2012 or 2013 is when the story was exposed. In Munich, they discovered a, a recluse, an old man,
[16:44]with 1,500. And this works of art, major masterpieces, seagulls, Picasso's, you know,
[16:51]Matisse literally hidden in his stove and in his food cabinet worth like $1.5 billion. So, it turns out
[17:00]that this is not just any old man recluse. This was the son of Hitler's art dealer. And the guy
[17:07]who went after and handled all the stolen art. And the father, Hildebren Gerlett,
[17:13]bequeathed all of this to this recluse of son, Cornelius Gerlett. And it was a huge, crazy, big story
[17:21]in the art world. And I thought to myself in that moment, you know, when I know that I have my story,
[17:26]I get this visceral body reaction. And I'm like, this is my story. I have to use it. So this is the,
[17:33]the jumping board where my evil character, Margot de Laurent, is, is an, you know, sort of a
[17:40]ruthless art dealer. She goes in and she takes and it's not a spoiler, but steals all these
[17:46]paintings. So is it a crime if you steal from the robber is my question. And so that's where it
[17:53]all developed. But I look for a news hook with whatever I write for my stories. Oh, my gosh,
[18:00]I didn't realize that was a real, yeah, that's real. That's real. I, oh my gosh. Okay. Well,
[18:06]now I feel kind of stupid. But now, now this, that's, that's what I love that people are going to
[18:11]learn about this. And you're giving me a chance to talk about this because it, it does feel like fiction
[18:16]and, you know, truth is strange with fiction sometimes. But yes, so that is a real story that I jumped
[18:23]off of in this book. Tell me about your family history, which part of your, which parent, like,
[18:30]where they based what happened? The whole thing. My dad, yeah, my dad. And, you know,
[18:35]literally, he was very young. He had his bar mitzvah coming on the boat to America. I mean,
[18:39]he was really young at the time. But my immediate family survived, but all of their relatives
[18:46]from Poland, you know, parish and Auschwitz. And so there is, they survived because they were
[18:53]pushed to Siberia. And they were, you know, sent there into work camps. And that, you know,
[18:59]saved their life in a way. And so, you know, you get all these stories as a young person living in
[19:05]suburbia. And you know that you're very different than the other kids around you, your background.
[19:12]And so I think mostly for me, my grandmother was the keep, she's the voice in my head. She was my
[19:21]best friend. She was a fighter. She was tiny like me, you know, she, you know, the whole thing.
[19:28]And we were like this. And I really learned everything, very simple woman, but such a fighter
[19:35]from her. And I think my going back to this part of history is really my connection to her. I
[19:43]dedicate the book to her as well. So, yeah, so that's my family history. But as you know,
[19:49]our family history's guide us. And everything we do, you know, the mistakes we make, the, you know,
[19:57]the choices we make, you know, all those things.
[20:00]I mean, as you are telling me the story, it just, it's like, you know, in back to the
[20:06]future, we're like the photo disappears and all of it.
[20:09]Yes.
[20:10]And literally, like, you know, it would be so easy for this, for you to just be like,
[20:14]like, it's so unlikely that you even got like the fact that they survived and that you
[20:19]got to survive.
[20:20]And now you're writing this whole thing about it.
[20:23]So, and letting other people know and we get to talk about it, it's like a miracle, really.
[20:27]And then I think about all the people who aren't able to do that and all of your cousins
[20:30]and the people who would have been here.
[20:31]I mean, it's, it's hard and, and also with the surging of antisemitism, you know, these
[20:38]days, it's a, it's really tough stuff.
[20:40]So, I think it's important, you know, that's why I feel like, although this book is suspense
[20:45]and, you know, for my feeling, you know, strong fiction, historical fiction, for me, there's
[20:51]personal meaning and I want people to walk away with it, you know, that they take away
[20:57]something or they learn something or they just feel connected or they'll see an article
[21:01]in the New York Times about stolen art and they'll have had a little bit of a background
[21:06]because they'll read my book.
[21:07]And so for me, that is the most meaningful part of this whole new book journey.
[21:12]Oh, it's so amazing.
[21:15]It's really impressive.
[21:16]It's like, it's, it has the intrigue and all of that from the art, like in the, like
[21:21]a Thomas Crown affair-ish type intrigue and yet the soul of the Holocaust.
[21:27]I mean, it's, it's very powerful stuff.
[21:30]Very cool.
[21:31]Thank you.
[21:32]So how do you go from writing a project like this to then being like, okay, now what,
[21:38]do you know, like, this feels like a magnum opus of your career, right?
[21:42]What, like, how do you go to onto the next one?
[21:44]You know, I, you know how it is, you're getting a book out and you start working on
[21:48]the next one.
[21:50]So I am working on something every time I try to get away from World War II.
[21:54]It's like, I'm pulled in, I get sucked right back in.
[21:58]So I told you about this stolen, this Warsaw ghetto uprising type of story.
[22:04]So that is the background, but it's also about an actress of today, an older woman who
[22:12]a young actress wants to do a documentary on her.
[22:16]And she also has a completely hidden past.
[22:19]So think, like Lauren Bacall, who's, you know, this famous actress, but she is not really
[22:26]Lauren Bacall, like, you know, she's bedding her ski, her real, you know, name.
[22:30]And so I'm inspired by sort of this, you know, facade of acting and actresses and what
[22:39]went on with her history, you know, you didn't know that she was in a sass and back
[22:43]in the day, you know, back in her younger years.
[22:47]So I'm working this story right now, you know, and we'll see what happens.
[22:52]I'm really enjoying this character, but I have to kind of put it aside every time I'm,
[22:57]you know, with book stuff.
[22:58]So it's kind of a stop and start, but that's sort of what I'm working on right now.
[23:04]Wow.
[23:05]Well, I'm really excited for you for this book to come out for people to learn and get
[23:10]wrapped in.
[23:11]I mean, talk about a book where, you know, you're not going to have your attention waiver,
[23:15]right?
[23:16]You're like in it.
[23:17]Like you do all the things to keep people engaged.
[23:20]Thank you.
[23:21]That's great.
[23:22]Anyway.
[23:23]Bravo.
[23:24]Congratulations.
[23:25]And I can't wait to hear the news of, you know, what the adaptation or whatever the
[23:29]news is that you have.
[23:30]I'm very excited to hear.
[23:32]Yes.
[23:33]Yes.
[23:34]All right.
[23:35]Okay.
[23:36]Well, I hope everybody feels better in your family and that all is good.
[23:39]Thank you.
[23:40]Can I just say one thing?
[23:41]I just, I hope you are told enough over and over how amazing you are and what you do
[23:48]for our community.
[23:50]You work effortlessly 24 seven to promote writers while you're working while you're being
[23:57]mom while you're doing all these things and it's, and you are so loved and appreciated.
[24:04]So, you know, if I have this one little last thing of it's you, thank you so much for all
[24:10]that you do.
[24:11]Really.
[24:12]Thank you, Lisa.
[24:13]Thank you.
[24:14]Thank you.
[24:15]Okay.
[24:16]Hi.
[24:17]Thanks.
[24:18]Bye.
[24:19]Bye.
[24:20]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:23]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, ads and be Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time
[24:27]to Read Books.
[24:28]Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[24:32]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:35]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you
[24:39]to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.