Kimberly Harrington, BUT YOU SEEMED SO HAPPY: A Marriage, in Pieces and Bits
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[0:41]Kimberly Harrington is the author of But You Seems So Happy, a marriage in pieces and bits.
[0:47]Kimberly is also the author of Amateur Hour.
[0:50]Her work is included in the collections, Keep Scrolling Till You Feel Something,
[0:54]21 Years of Humor from McSweenie's, Internet Tendency, and Merciless and Unpredictable.
[0:59]I'm McSweenie's Guide to Parenting.
[1:01]She's a columnist and regular contributor to McSweenie's, Internet Tendency,
[1:05]and her work has also appeared in The New Yorker at The New York Times in the cut.
[1:09]A longtime copywriter and creative director, her clients have included Apple, Nike, and Netflix.
[1:14]Welcome, Kimberly.
[1:15]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss, but you seem so happy.
[1:20]A marriage in pieces and bits, essays.
[1:23]These are having me, and I wanted to say before we start that you know, like I had a suspicion that my book was under the radar.
[1:30]I was telling a friend that my book felt a little bit under the radar.
[1:33]It's like, you know you're under the radar when the only list that your book is on is actually under the radar books coming out, which was your list.
[1:41]Oh, sorry.
[1:43]No, it was great. I was like, I'm not imagining it.
[1:46]I just, I still feel this way. I mean, this is a fabulous book, and it's really funny and clever.
[1:54]And like all the things, but I just haven't seen it.
[1:57]I don't know. I don't think it's been appropriately covered. That's my two cents.
[2:01]Anyway, I didn't mean to perpetuate that with the listing.
[2:05]No, please like thank you so much. When I, when I saw that I was like, okay, this is not in my head.
[2:11]I'm not imagining it. It's nowhere.
[2:13]Well, I don't know why, but it's really great. So let's talk about it. Okay.
[2:18]So you've decided to discuss your, you're not only your marriage, but really growing up your family, how you got to where you are.
[2:27]You've decided to leave your husband's stuff aside and you handled that by the way in such a nice way.
[2:32]Thank you. And examined sort of marriage as an institution and made fun of it.
[2:38]And, you know, talked about me. Anyway, maybe I should let you describe it now that I've gone on it.
[2:43]What would you say this, this book is principally about and why, why write it, why expose your life, why write it and tell me about it.
[2:52]That's a good question, isn't it?
[2:54]This book is several things. You know, I think first of all, it's, it's a memoir and essays.
[3:00]It's the second memoir and essays that I've written.
[3:03]It's a biography of a marriage and a separation. I'm still not divorced. So it's really about sort of that process and it's a conceptual examination of marriage, like you mentioned.
[3:15]And it does make it sound really dry. Like when I explain it at all, all three of those things and makes it sound dry, but there's a lot of humor in it.
[3:24]And, you know, in terms of why write it, I will be honest and say that I've had that question in my head.
[3:33]Many times, you know, I think that when I first started it was, it was different in my head, you know, it really started out as a humor book sort of, you know, I think, because I had just written amateur hour, which was about motherhood and it had this sort of similar mix of like conceptual and humor and essay.
[3:53]And that came out mid 2018 and, you know, said I was never going to do that again that it was just too stressful to write about my life.
[4:04]You know, there was, I find a lot of meaning in it, but it's stressful. I think memoir is really stressful and that probably doesn't get talked about nearly enough.
[4:13]And then six months like I started this book. So I learned nothing, you know, it was like, well, I don't really, I don't see anything out there about divorce that isn't very much like this women in transition sort of stuff that is not my vibe at all.
[4:31]It's like, I certainly don't see anything funny about it that isn't a little jokey jokey and even then there's there's just nothing about that and I get it, you know, hard topics that are culturally seen as bad.
[4:45]Like these are bad things they will always be bad things you should never joke about them. I understand why and I actually understand it more after trying to promote the book to be quite honest to like, you know, my feeling during the process was like,
[5:00]well, everyone's getting divorced now it's a pandemic like, you know, the market could not be bigger for this book, but I was shocked at how freaked out culture is around divorce and it's just stunning to me like this is not new.
[5:19]This is so common. I'm sure because it's seen as a failure and our culture is really freaked out by failure.
[5:26]It's just it's been really eye opening I have to say like it's kind of like in hindsight it makes sense, but in the process it's it was just like wow really we're really this freaked out by this still even though it's so common.
[5:41]So you said something in the book about why people will consider it a failure if your marriage ends you're like life ends is it a failure that I lived like it's okay that relationships go to their natural end like why do we judge it so much.
[5:54]You know, I think what ultimately became different about the way approach the book I think where I started was why this marriage which I think is what a lot of divorce books are or memoir about divorce it's like why this marriage like,
[6:09]just fault is it and I ended up in a space of like why marriage like just why in general like we we kind of march through life and we accept that this is what we should all be doing and we're made to feel badly if we don't ever get married I mean women who don't get married choose not to have kids.
[6:30]It's just it's just we don't even question we don't ever get to start at this level you know we don't go above where we are and ask why we do that anyways and I was really coming at it not from a place of bitterness you know it wasn't like oh my god I'm never doing that again that was big mistake it's like.
[6:49]That was a great experience is hard and I had a great relationship with a really great guy but I don't know why I would ever do that again like I've already checked that box and I don't understand the reason why I mean I I get it I understand it but it's still.
[7:09]Really surprising to me that we don't question it more and we don't try to think of other ways to approach it when it doesn't work out I mean to me that's the.
[7:19]The really surprising thing and I and I still feel this way I still feel like why aren't we doing things the normal person way my god like this is absurd but.
[7:29]I don't see how that's better than what we're doing how it how would you redo it well I think it's I think and I made this point in the book it's like when you do something the way everyone else you know isn't doing it you feel like a weirdo which I don't mind.
[7:46]That's that's not unusual to me but it does wear on you you know we still but if you if you were to like scratch the whole thing clean like erase the whole construct of marriage as it exists now.
[7:58]I see what you're saying like if you were to read it no I know you have have a unique way of handling your divorce and that you're still living together and then at the time of writing you were still sharing your bed and.
[8:09]You put it in your holiday garden.
[8:13]I thought it was great and as someone who has gotten into worse I really appreciated a lot of the sections particularly the one welcome back to that but.
[8:21]If you were to use like a contract like the model you put in here where the contract kind of changes and you have kids and now their new terms that we know yeah like.
[8:31]Would we all get married at all like do you believe that we should partner up in a legal way I mean you don't have to answer this and maybe you don't have a view on it but I don't know do you think where it's even the right thing to.
[8:44]For today's day and age at all like it's not all where you read up every couple years or I don't know what have you thought about I think the I think the issue is it's so bound up in actual.
[8:54]legal rights, you know there's a layer to it that you can't really get away from so I think you know again I like I am not an expert in any degree on almost anything so.
[9:06]I mean far be it for me to like get into a legal argument about it but I just you know I feel like there's there's the way our society works that you have to have sort of all this legal stuff in place especially if you have kids but.
[9:20]If I set that aside, I feel like the ideal situation is probably where a lot of us started out like in our 20s like you didn't live with someone immediately kind of had your own space.
[9:31]And then you're able to really enjoy being together and you didn't have to deal with the grind of like someone's chewing or.
[9:39]disgusting bathroom habits or whatever you know it's like that to me is like the stuff that starts to grind you down.
[9:47]And I mean I I so value having my own space again i'm still used to it now and it's funny to me how many women who because of the pandemic like whether they were on.
[10:00]and teen or had COVID or their partner had COVID were like,
[10:03]you know, it was really nice to have my own room again.
[10:06]It was nice to just sleep.
[10:08]It's like, this is what I'm saying.
[10:09]Like it is really nice to have your own space.
[10:13]It's crazy.
[10:13]That's another sort of thing.
[10:14]Like how did we all decide,
[10:17]like who decided to share bed for the rest of your life?
[10:21]Like it's impossible to sleep at a certain point.
[10:24]You know, it's like these kind of things
[10:26]that got in my head,
[10:27]these really basic things that were like,
[10:29]okay, we're just gonna do that
[10:30]and not ask any questions about it whatsoever.
[10:34]That's the stuff that started making me crazy.
[10:36]So I kind of feel like the ideal situation
[10:38]is some sort of separation physically.
[10:42]You know, legally, whatever, I don't know.
[10:44]But just being able to have your own space,
[10:46]your own time away, not feeling like there's just constantly
[10:51]have to be together, do everything together,
[10:53]see each other all the time.
[10:55]I think it's necessary.
[10:56]And I think women especially don't prioritize
[11:00]the time they need just to be.
[11:04]Just to, you know, have space,
[11:06]have no one in their space time alone, time to think.
[11:10]It solves a lot.
[11:11]It really solves a lot of problems actually, you know?
[11:15]And we just, we don't prioritize it.
[11:18]I agree.
[11:19]Yeah, time to think.
[11:20]I did more thinking post-awards than I did my entire marriage,
[11:24]I think.
[11:25]I mean, I started cooking, but sort of, you know, not.
[11:28]It does.
[11:29]You finally frustrating that there's so much that you process
[11:32]and it's like, I wish I had had this framework
[11:34]or these questions in the beginning or even in the middle.
[11:38]You know, we kind of just go, we just go, go, go.
[11:40]It's true.
[11:41]I know.
[11:42]Well, you don't know until you do it,
[11:44]but you don't know until you know.
[11:46]Right?
[11:47]And you have this chapter that I loved
[11:50]and I just want to read the beginning
[11:51]if you don't mind.
[11:52]Called thank you, acquaintance,
[11:53]for the very good advice on how to save
[11:55]my marriage.
[11:56]You go, this is amazing.
[11:58]What are the odds?
[11:59]Here I was struggling for years
[12:00]to navigate the disintegration
[12:02]of one of the most foundational
[12:03]and dare I say private relationships of my life,
[12:06]a relationship in fact that has lasted almost
[12:08]the entirety of my adulthood,
[12:10]which is an interesting contrast to my relationship
[12:12]with you, a person who might have spoken with twice.
[12:16]How I had never thought to consult you
[12:18]for if we're all nobody, for advice is beyond me.
[12:21]Thank goodness you are such a warrior
[12:22]for the sanctity of marriage
[12:24]that you step boldly over the line of polite discourse
[12:27]to insert yourself into this intimate, intimate area
[12:30]of my life.
[12:31]You are certainly brave and a person
[12:32]who is not reading my social cues right now.
[12:35]Again, I have overcome with gratitude.
[12:37]Thanks.
[12:39]I loved that part.
[12:40]And the whole like subsequent chapters hilarious
[12:43]because that was one thing I found also
[12:45]is like just the volume of unsolicited advice
[12:47]after decisions had already been made.
[12:50]Right, like I don't need to rethink it now.
[12:52]Like this is I'm telling you like the end, right?
[12:54]I don't need the feedback.
[12:56]I mean, I have to say,
[12:57]I didn't get too much of that because of that email
[13:00]that I put in the book that we just blasted people
[13:03]with the news and my naturally hostile personality
[13:07]for anyone who knows me is like you're not,
[13:09]I'm not gonna have this conversation with you.
[13:11]Like I'm telling you and this is not a negotiation.
[13:15]Like you don't need to chime in.
[13:17]You can talk behind my back like normal people do.
[13:19]Like we don't need to work this out.
[13:22]And I do think if I put myself in other people's shoes
[13:25]because we've all been there
[13:26]when we've heard other people's news
[13:27]that it is very much, it's fresh to you
[13:30]as the person who's receiving the news.
[13:32]So you feel like, well, it's kind of like crisis management.
[13:37]And like you said, it's like, no, no, no,
[13:39]I'm telling you how the story ends.
[13:41]I'm not inviting you to rewrite some chapters with me.
[13:44]This is like a conclusion and you can accept this news.
[13:49]And then you can move on with your life
[13:52]because it affects you in no way.
[13:54]Like feel free to progress through your life as you were.
[13:58]And it's just, it's hard because people are hearing it.
[14:03]I had to realize that they're hearing it through their own lens.
[14:06]They're hearing it through whether they feel like it's contagious.
[14:11]Whether they feel like, well, what does that say about
[14:14]their relationship?
[14:16]They're coming to you with all of their stuff
[14:19]and it has almost nothing to do with you.
[14:21]And once I really, and that's true of everything,
[14:24]you know, I sort of feel like it doesn't matter
[14:27]what you're announcing, whether it's something
[14:29]that's perceived as bad or good, like an engagement,
[14:31]a divorce, a pregnancy, a miscarriage, a book deal.
[14:34]Like people are bringing their stuff to their reaction.
[14:40]And it's really, you're just kind of the container for it.
[14:44]It helps kind of distance.
[14:45]Because someone's always going to disappoint you.
[14:46]Like people are always going to pleasantly surprise you
[14:48]and people are always going to disappoint you
[14:50]in those situations.
[14:53]And I kind of found like the more I could just disengage
[14:56]and be like, that's you.
[14:57]Like that's not me.
[14:59]And this isn't, you know, this isn't,
[15:01]we're not work-shopping this.
[15:02]You can work through your reaction to it on your own
[15:07]without me going there.
[15:10]Yeah.
[15:11]What about, you know, yeah, I get it, I get it.
[15:14]What about the section where you rewrite the ending
[15:17]to when Harry Metzallie?
[15:19]Oh, I loved writing that piece.
[15:22]I didn't know if it was going to work.
[15:25]To be honest, like it's a little bit of a anomaly in the book.
[15:29]And it gave me the excuse to watch that movie
[15:31]like 10 times to sort out, I'd like to sort out,
[15:35]you know, even though I've seen it a bunch,
[15:37]like to sort out the dynamic and sort of the voice
[15:39]of those characters.
[15:40]And I think what's really satisfying about it
[15:43]is I've had people who read the manuscript like throughout.
[15:47]So they saw the really horrible first draft
[15:50]that had all kinds of issues.
[15:51]And that was a much later piece.
[15:54]And hearing people were pretty skeptical of it
[15:57]when they started really like, yeah, I don't know.
[15:59]And ended up really loving it or feeling
[16:01]even emotional reading it.
[16:02]It was, because that's how I felt.
[16:04]I felt like I know format wise,
[16:07]maybe this doesn't quite fit.
[16:09]And it feels a little out of the field,
[16:10]but I've loved it.
[16:12]I loved that piece.
[16:13]And originally, I had a lot of pieces
[16:17]that kind of more overtly traced like popular culture,
[16:20]like the movies I grew up with
[16:22]and how that's such a big part.
[16:24]Like I don't want to be all like media,
[16:27]blame media for everything.
[16:28]But when you're fed a narrative arc,
[16:31]you're especially when you're a teenager
[16:33]and over and over and over again.
[16:35]And the only satisfying conclusion
[16:38]is that you get married or you're a part of a couple
[16:41]and it matters, it has an impact.
[16:44]And so that was a bigger thread
[16:46]in an earlier manuscript and it kind of went away.
[16:48]So I was right on the edge of like, do I still,
[16:51]like this piece made more sense when I was talking me
[16:53]about movies more, but I'm glad I stayed in.
[16:56]I thought it was great.
[16:58]It's just so clever.
[16:59]Like the whole book, the way you did all of it
[17:03]was so creative, it's just a creative approach
[17:05]to the whole thing.
[17:06]Even how you interwove all year,
[17:08]is that even the right word interwove?
[17:10]All of your own diary entries were those real?
[17:13]Those were real, wow.
[17:15]That was a huge breakthrough in working on the book.
[17:17]I have to say, because when I started writing it,
[17:20]I was really starting from like where I was.
[17:22]And so there was a ton of pieces about the voice
[17:26]and a ton of pieces about the end of my marriage.
[17:28]And they were pretty much more defensive
[17:31]and angry, like old man yelling at cloud,
[17:36]like sort of vibe to a lot of those
[17:38]and kind of in parallel, I had a big box of journals
[17:43]and diaries that I had was gonna sort through
[17:46]because I had some time off of work.
[17:48]And as I started before,
[17:50]I would kind of dip in and out of them
[17:52]and be like, God, this is so cringe inducing.
[17:54]Like this is just painful, but I wanna read them
[17:56]cause I was going to destroy them.
[17:57]I was gonna rip them up and just get them out
[17:59]of my life forever.
[18:01]But instead I blasted through them.
[18:03]And when I did that, it's like,
[18:05]oh, this story I've been telling myself about who I was.
[18:09]When I was a teenager and when I was in my 20s,
[18:12]it wasn't accurate actually.
[18:13]And I've been telling myself the story of the whole time.
[18:16]And so as I read, I was setting aside,
[18:19]I was transcribing some of those entries.
[18:23]And that started to ground it
[18:26]and make the book go further back.
[18:28]Instead of it just being about the end,
[18:29]it's like, well, I ended up here for a reason.
[18:31]I mean, you can't game out your whole life.
[18:35]And like, oh, this is exactly what happened.
[18:36]But it's like, I did start off with certain ideas.
[18:40]And I was a certain type of person.
[18:44]And I wasn't stupid.
[18:46]Like I was kind of, you know, like teenagers,
[18:49]you're so dumb, you don't know anything.
[18:50]It's like, I wasn't that dumb.
[18:52]Like, I'm still pretty much that person, just older.
[18:56]And so I think that that really helped be more forgiving
[18:59]and actually have a more forgiving approach
[19:02]for giving tone to the book overall.
[19:05]But yeah, those are real.
[19:06]Some of them really blew my mind,
[19:08]because I haven't read them since I probably wrote them
[19:11]when I was like 17 or whatever.
[19:13]That's on my to-do list.
[19:14]I do have like a bunch of my journals saved.
[19:17]And I keep being like, I have to go read them
[19:19]because I bet I'll have some book idea
[19:21]or, you know, I could use them for this or I don't know.
[19:24]So that's, I'm like saving them for a rainy day type of thing.
[19:26]It's worth it.
[19:27]And I really would recommend like plowing through them
[19:30]because I do think you, it is painful.
[19:33]I mean, you just, I mean, it's so physically painful at times
[19:37]that you just have to walk away from them
[19:39]because you're like, oh, oh my God.
[19:42]This is like embarrassing, it's cringe inducing.
[19:47]You're just, you just want it to stop.
[19:49]Like any other, like if someone was punching you,
[19:52]you would want them to stop.
[19:53]And to me, that's how it feels.
[19:54]Like reading journals from when you're an adolescent,
[19:57]but like muscling through.
[20:00]really gave me insights that I would not have had
[20:04]if I just kept kind of like every few months
[20:06]dipping in and out of them.
[20:07]And it was really eye opening, really surprising.
[20:12]All right.
[20:13]Okay, I'm putting it higher up on my last thing
[20:17]that I might do.
[20:18]It's a free time.
[20:20]You said at the beginning that writing a memoir
[20:22]is really stressful, is it the actual writing
[20:25]or is it the sharing of the information?
[20:28]Which piece of it is stressful?
[20:29]I think they're stressful in different ways.
[20:32]I think the writing is more satisfying.
[20:36]It can be hard and it can be emotional,
[20:38]but there's something satisfying about it.
[20:40]Cause you're trying to sort things out,
[20:43]you're trying, even when it's painful
[20:45]or you can't really remember stuff.
[20:47]Like they even, that's just kind of hard in general.
[20:49]It's like, I don't, you know,
[20:50]I had to, I had to write a list of like school years
[20:55]and how old I was to remember when things were happening.
[20:58]You know, I mean, there are things that you're like,
[21:00]are just frustrating, but I think it's,
[21:03]the writing can be really satisfying.
[21:05]And, but it's sharing it that is just nauseating
[21:09]and the fact that I did it twice is absurd
[21:11]because it's just like, do I not remember
[21:14]how nauseous I felt all the time and, you know,
[21:19]just, you know, it's one thing to write it
[21:21]and process it and have that satisfaction.
[21:24]It's another thing to put it out there
[21:27]and really question like, why did I, why did I do that?
[21:32]You know, I mean, it's, I think women,
[21:36]especially work in memoir cause it feels easy.
[21:41]You know, I think it's like, well, I'm writing about my life.
[21:43]I know how everything ends.
[21:44]Like I know the details and it's like, it is not easy.
[21:49]I mean, that would be one thing I would tell writers
[21:52]who are thinking about that.
[21:54]It's hard.
[21:57]It's hard and it's stressful in a way
[21:59]that is hard to articulate, but anyone else,
[22:02]I know who does it is like, oh yeah, you know,
[22:06]you're really selling the art of memoir here.
[22:07]Let me tell you, I know, don't do it.
[22:10]This is what I'm saying, not do it.
[22:13]What other advice would you give for aspiring authors
[22:15]aside from staying far away from what you know?
[22:18]Instead of not doing whatever it is you're doing,
[22:20]I think it would be to really think about
[22:23]what your definition of success is.
[22:26]I think that doesn't get talked about enough
[22:28]to be quite honest.
[22:30]You know, people will see me as having two books out
[22:33]with a big publisher and they think that is,
[22:37]I'm successful.
[22:38]That's all I do now, which is very far from the truth.
[22:42]And I've had to really examine this year
[22:45]like what is success?
[22:47]So few authors are successful
[22:50]if we talk about making a living from it,
[22:52]almost no one does.
[22:53]The price you pay putting, for example,
[22:56]your life in a book and putting it out there
[22:59]and maybe you get attention for a week or two weeks
[23:03]and then it's gone, years of your work are gone.
[23:05]So I've had to really think through what is success.
[23:10]You know, I think a lot of people are like,
[23:11]I want to write the article that goes viral.
[23:13]Well, why do you want it to go viral?
[23:14]Because I want to get a book deal.
[23:15]Well, what do you think is going to happen
[23:16]when you get a book deal?
[23:17]Like, you're going to write the book.
[23:19]Like, I think that we just kind of plow through
[23:21]and don't stop and ask like,
[23:23]is that what I really want?
[23:25]You know, is that it's a lot of work.
[23:27]So what are you going to sacrifice to write that book?
[23:30]I sacrifice a lot of time with my kids,
[23:32]a lot of focus with my kids.
[23:34]Like, is that success to me?
[23:36]I don't know.
[23:37]I mean, that's something I'm thinking about.
[23:38]So like, I wish I had clear cut like craft advice,
[23:43]but that's not where my head is at.
[23:44]It's a lot about, you know,
[23:47]the machine of like pushing you forward
[23:49]to want the book deal to keep going forward at all costs.
[23:52]And sometimes like writing,
[23:54]first of all, writing and publishing are two different things.
[23:57]I got a lot of satisfaction from writing.
[23:59]That's kind of where I'm back now.
[24:01]And publishing is a totally different animal.
[24:03]And so I think more writers might be happier
[24:07]if they really think about what success is to them.
[24:12]Interesting.
[24:13]Wait, so what are you writing now?
[24:15]Right now I am stepping way back
[24:19]from working, ever working on a book.
[24:22]I mean, maybe I will down the road,
[24:23]but now I'm returning to just shorter pieces
[24:26]when I have time, really spending time working on
[24:30]just more contained things working on my newsletter,
[24:33]writing what I want to write,
[24:34]basically, you know, not pitching anything.
[24:36]And that's really been satisfying to me.
[24:39]It's only been, you know, a month of that,
[24:41]I took a very long break after the book came out.
[24:44]And so I'm only returning to it now.
[24:46]But it's like, oh yeah, this is where I started.
[24:49]Like this is what I started doing.
[24:51]And I felt really happy and proud
[24:53]when I worked on something that I really loved.
[24:55]And that was the whole experience.
[24:57]Like it was self-contained.
[24:59]I wrote a thing, I put a thing out, that thing was done.
[25:02]It didn't need to go anywhere else.
[25:04]It's like, oh yeah, okay, I'm gonna try that again.
[25:07]And so that's been nice.
[25:08]But that's not, our culture doesn't work that way.
[25:12]You need to always want something bigger for yourself.
[25:14]Like what are you even doing
[25:16]if you don't want something bigger?
[25:17]And right now, I don't want anything bigger.
[25:20]That's okay.
[25:21]That's right.
[25:22]I'm giving you permission, you know.
[25:24]Yeah.
[25:25]It works for me.
[25:30]Wow, well, this was really fun.
[25:32]I really enjoyed your book,
[25:33]even the title, marriage and pieces of it.
[25:36]I mean, it's all so clever and well done
[25:38]and smart and thought-provoking and creative.
[25:42]I don't know, I thought it was great
[25:43]and I really enjoyed it.
[25:45]So thank you so much.
[25:46]I really appreciate that.
[25:47]Okay.
[25:48]So hopefully not as under the radar.
[25:50]Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
[25:54]We'll take care.
[25:54]Thanks.
[25:55]Oh, bye.
[25:56]Bye-bye.
[25:58]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[26:01]to Read Books.
[26:02]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens
[26:05]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:07]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com
[26:10]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:11]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:14]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[26:16]for the Sound Editing.
[26:18]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:20]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.