Scarlett Thomas, 41-LOVE: A Memoir
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[2:03]Scarlet Thomas is the author of 41 Love on Addictions, Tennis, and refusing to grow up.
[2:08]This is not, by the way, any sort of competition.
[2:11]As many of you probably know, I wrote a memoir called 40 Love that I tried to sell sort of for a brief period of time.
[2:18]And now a lot of that story is in my upcoming memoir called Bookends.
[2:22]But anyway, I just couldn't believe it when I saw that there actually was a memoir coming out with almost the exact same title.
[2:28]But Scarlet is a way better than mine would have been.
[2:30]So Scarlet Thomas was born in London in 1972.
[2:33]Her most recent book is the memoir 41 Love from counterpoint press.
[2:37]And she's also the author of several novels, including Olegarchy, The Seed Collectors, Popco, The End of Mr. Y, which was long-listed for the orange broadband prize for fiction in 2007.
[2:47]And our tragic universe.
[2:49]She teaches creative writing at the University of Kent.
[2:52]Welcome, Scarlet.
[2:53]Thank you so much for coming.
[2:54]On mom's, don't have time to read books to discuss 41 Love on Addictions, Tennis, and refusing to grow up.
[3:00]Well, thank you so much for having me.
[3:02]It's great to be here.
[3:03]I have to tell you, I wrote a book that I did not sell as such, but it was called 40 Love because I fell in love again at 40.
[3:12]And so I told everybody I knew for a long time, including many authors on my show that I was writing this memoir called 40 Love about falling love again at 40.
[3:21]And I ended up ultimately selling a book and calling it book ends.
[3:26]And then where I've loved last in literature.
[3:28]But anyway, at first it was 40 Love.
[3:30]Then 40 Love was a section of my book.
[3:32]Anyway, I could not believe it when I saw this.
[3:35]That's so amazing.
[3:39]Yeah.
[3:40]It's getting a lot of attention if you look already.
[3:42]Did you know there's a book called me out called 41 Love?
[3:44]And I was like, yes, I know.
[3:46]And it almost wasn't called that.
[3:48]Oh really?
[3:49]What was it called?
[3:50]Yeah.
[3:51]Oh God, it was called loads of things in my head.
[3:53]It's still called the tennis book.
[3:55]Oh funny.
[3:56]That's how I talk about it all the time.
[3:58]And then yeah, I love the whole kind of force.
[4:01]You love, force you on love thing.
[4:03]Yeah.
[4:04]Why do you know it's a great title because you had it first.
[4:06]And like you, I had except you actually like lived out this idea.
[4:10]But when I, I started like I basically took up tennis again.
[4:16]And like played in tournaments and whatever.
[4:18]When I was 40, now I'm 40 much.
[4:20]And I had, I said to my husband one day when we were like watching
[4:23]Wimbledon or something.
[4:24]I was like, do you think I could join like the older women?
[4:28]Like, could I train for this?
[4:30]Like could I do?
[4:31]And he's like, he like kind of laughed.
[4:32]And he's like, I mean, you know, I'm not that good.
[4:35]But second of all, he's like, do you have any idea what it would take to get to that level at this age?
[4:39]You have to like have trainers and, you know, all this stuff and hours of competition.
[4:44]And he's like, you can barely get to school pickup.
[4:46]Like, okay, fine.
[4:47]Fine.
[4:48]But anyway, now that I've gone on about me.
[4:51]Okay.
[4:52]Discuss this book because this is slightly different than my book, which was like more of it.
[4:56]But anyway.
[4:57]Talk about your book and how this book came to be this tennis book of yours.
[5:03]Yeah.
[5:04]So I basically had the same thought that you had that time except that unfortunately,
[5:08]your husband wasn't there to tell me.
[5:10]I don't.
[5:11]Yeah.
[5:12]Like moms don't have time to play tennis.
[5:14]Right.
[5:15]Although I'm not even a mom.
[5:16]And I still don't have time to do any of this stuff.
[5:19]And I think I'm going to blame maybe Leanne Shapton and her book swimming studies.
[5:25]I don't know if you ever read that.
[5:28]There's just, I was reading that on holiday a few years before.
[5:30]And there's just a line in that about age group competition.
[5:34]And I thought, what is that?
[5:35]What is that a thing?
[5:37]I never did.
[5:38]I never really did competitive sports as a kid.
[5:41]I did a bit of tennis.
[5:43]I didn't really go in competitions and win trophies and all of that.
[5:46]So when it dawned on me that as an older woman, I could enter a competition.
[5:52]And then I did.
[5:53]I entered this, this little Christmas tournament in my local tennis club just six months after retaking up tennis when I was 40 then.
[6:03]And I won this tournament against all the odds.
[6:06]And it wasn't because I was brilliant.
[6:08]It wasn't like a scene from Rocky.
[6:10]It was, I don't know what happened because the thrill was so great.
[6:14]I just wanted to win another trophy and spoiler alert.
[6:18]Can I give a spoiler?
[6:19]I mean, I don't really win for the rest of the book.
[6:22]I was just so like, how did this elude me as a child?
[6:27]Winning is so great.
[6:29]I was like, why did my parents not push me into every competition and make me like a crazed gymnast?
[6:35]And, you know, I played in the lacrosse team at school for a short while, but.
[6:39]Me too.
[6:40]Yeah, sure.
[6:41]We've got the same life.
[6:42]I know, right?
[6:43]This is crazy.
[6:44]Wow.
[6:45]What position did you play?
[6:47]Third home.
[6:48]It was on defense.
[6:49]Oh, yeah.
[6:50]I think I like left wing.
[6:52]Okay.
[6:53]Well, I was like, right in the middle.
[6:55]Yeah.
[6:58]That's funny.
[6:59]Well, there is something intoxicating about winning, especially at our age where you feel like nothing.
[7:05]You can't win anything.
[7:06]Like it's over.
[7:07]You know, like.
[7:10]It's so cheerful already.
[7:12]But yeah, I mean, it's just shock, isn't it?
[7:14]I didn't think it was going to be.
[7:16]Well, first of all, I didn't think I was going to get older.
[7:18]I definitely thought that wasn't going to happen.
[7:20]And then I just didn't think any of the stuff that happens to everybody else is going to
[7:24]happen to me.
[7:25]Did you feel like that?
[7:26]I was.
[7:27]I don't know.
[7:28]I don't know what I thought.
[7:29]I had like so many big question marks for late, later in life.
[7:33]But I certainly didn't think anything good was going to happen.
[7:36]Oh, no.
[7:37]I kind of.
[7:38]I did at first.
[7:39]I don't anymore.
[7:40]But I did back when I started my tennis adventure.
[7:43]I was just like, oh, I'm going to win another trophy.
[7:46]And it's going to be so great being in these tournaments with women over 40 because obviously,
[7:50]I'm going to beat all of them, right?
[7:52]And my head, I'm still twins who or something.
[7:54]And yeah, I don't think I want a couple of matches, but it was very hard.
[8:00]I played in like this tournament that summer that I was getting more competitive.
[8:04]I had this one like epic match.
[8:06]And it was before my husband and I were even dating.
[8:09]We were like close to dating, but he was still my tennis coach.
[8:12]And I was calling him like the whole time on the sidelines, like texting him like, now she did this.
[8:17]No, this is the score, blah, blah.
[8:19]It's like, don't give up.
[8:20]You've got this.
[8:21]And this is the whole thing.
[8:23]And she had, she had brought like five people to watch her.
[8:27]And I had brought no one.
[8:28]I'm like, are you kidding?
[8:29]Like, it didn't even occur to me to bring anything to watch.
[8:32]And it was like, they were all so competitive.
[8:34]And I was like, oh my gosh, this is terrible.
[8:37]Anyway, I lost.
[8:39]I was crushing.
[8:40]It was it was a crushing loss.
[8:41]But anyway, at least you got the trophy.
[8:44]It's horrible, isn't it?
[8:45]So there's something about tennis that is so psychologically draining and intense.
[8:52]You know, facing this one person.
[8:54]And I'm so not like that in life.
[8:57]I'm not concerned, not competitive because I guess I am.
[9:02]But I definitely don't like conflict.
[9:04]And I don't like kind of going up against like, I wouldn't have an argument with a person.
[9:08]And yeah, I was happy to go out and whack these tennis balls at them.
[9:12]And, you know, and try all these tactics to win all, you know, the inner game of tennis.
[9:18]And win ugly.
[9:20]You know, everything.
[9:22]I love how you will win so many books because I had not read like Brad Gilbert's book.
[9:27]And I've read some, like I read open by Andre.
[9:30]I guess even that's not like advice, right?
[9:32]Amazing though. Right.
[9:33]Such a great book.
[9:34]So that's like one of my top picks of all time.
[9:37]Yeah.
[9:38]Amazing.
[9:39]In fact, he was like the second person ever to come on my podcast because I know it wasn't crazy.
[9:44]It was so good.
[9:45]Yeah, he's amazing.
[9:46]But yeah, I loved how you keep kept bringing in different books because I was thinking myself.
[9:50]Oh, gosh.
[9:51]Like I thought I was getting serious for like two minutes.
[9:53]Never occurred to me to buy books on it.
[9:55]Like maybe now I should buy books on it because certainly when you're playing tennis, like it's all like.
[10:00]think about, right? And all those things you can't
[10:01]remind in yourself. And like, and even like, I had the
[10:04]same situation with the coach, he was like, you play tennis
[10:07]like you're from the 80s. No one plays this is not a
[10:10]people who had forehands anymore. Like what do you mean?
[10:13]Like, and I literally, I was so offended, you know, out
[10:16]there in my yoga pants and then the dead of winter and this
[10:19]indoor court, you know, swinging my heart out and being like,
[10:22]yeah, no, we don't, we don't, that's not how we teach that's
[10:25]not how people play like, oh, okay, well, great.
[10:30]So did you like after that? Did you think, right? I'm
[10:33]going to, you know, get a whole new outfit, screw the
[10:36]yoga pants and I'm going to get your stupid forehand that
[10:39]you want. And just like, I'm going to die to get there.
[10:41]Because that's kind of what I had the same experiences
[10:44]you. And then I was just, it was like a horrible addiction.
[10:47]I could not live without that forehand that they all had.
[10:51]And just, I don't know, even like those, you know, I had to
[10:55]have the, the latest tennis skirt. I invested in, in the
[10:59]whole new line of tennis clothing, tennis sneakers that is
[11:03]racking. It was like, it's so funny. Yeah, I thought it would
[11:08]all help. Yeah. And then I started thinking about it more
[11:11]and more and then as you do, you become like consumed. It's
[11:14]also, I feel like it's so nice to have something where you
[11:18]can see the results, right? Like tennis, this is why I don't
[11:21]really like golf because in tennis, you could always turn
[11:24]it around. Right? Yeah. Like, and then I'm like, oh, I'm
[11:29]not keeping my head down. I'm like, looking at the
[11:31]ball and if I now, if I fix that, I can win the next three
[11:35]games or something. But in golf, it's like, does not do you
[11:38]play golf? No, I can't really take up anything new because
[11:42]obviously I have a kind of issue. I can only take up things
[11:49]I'm quite bad at. So since the tennis book, I got quite into
[11:52]ballet and tap. And then I started becoming slightly good at
[11:57]ballet, not got no flexibility. So I gave that up. And then
[12:01]and now I cycle. But yeah, I couldn't, I just think I get so
[12:04]addicted to golf. Is it very addictive? I, it's not for
[12:08]me. It's okay. Like, there's too much of a mind game for me.
[12:12]Like I psych myself out. And you can't like recover the way
[12:16]you can't in tennis. Right? Like once or four is
[12:19]high enough. Forget it. You can't do it. Okay. Yeah, because I
[12:23]feel like in tennis, the dream is, yeah, you know, it's
[12:26]match points to the other person. And then you play your
[12:29]blistering forehand and it's beautiful. And then they feel
[12:33]so crushed and mortified that you play such a beautiful shot
[12:36]that they then lose the next three shots. Somebody got a game.
[12:39]And then you've got the momentum and they can't come back. I mean,
[12:42]that that type of, I don't know about you, but I would constantly
[12:46]have a commentary in my head like all this talk going on and
[12:49]imagining ringing my partner, ringing my tennis coach,
[12:53]telling all my friends, not that anyone would care. And then
[12:57]of course you don't win the point and you just lose. And
[12:59]yeah, which I kind of, yeah, it's hard to handle, isn't it
[13:07]losing, especially when you win so much professionally and in
[13:11]life and feel like if you try hard enough at something you
[13:16]can't possibly fail. I mean, all of that kind of came under
[13:19]the spotlight for me in this book. So true. I thought it was
[13:24]so funny in the beginning, by the way, when you were holding
[13:26]up your trophy and you were like off-slash and everything and
[13:28]you showed your colleague or your boss or whoever it was,
[13:32]they were like, well, is that why are you showing me that? You're
[13:34]like, that's me. They were like, no, it's not. You're like,
[13:39]then there's something really rude to you. I get like, you
[13:42]didn't, I don't know anyway. It was my ex literary agent and
[13:47]he sadly died, which is a whole lot of the story, but I mean, he
[13:51]was such a big personality, such a crazy guy. Now what he
[13:54]actually said, and I think he meant it nicely, but he said,
[13:57]but your face is so fast in that photo. Which, yeah, I was like,
[14:05]I've got my hair up, I'm playing sport, but so you can
[14:08]call it cool. Like I had my best Stella McCartney white jacket on
[14:12]you know, nice nail varnish. He said, where are your cheekbones?
[14:18]I think this is all, it was just pre-me too. It was a bit, kind of,
[14:22]bit of a dip in the patriarchy there.
[14:27]A dip in the patriarchy. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. And I
[14:31]thought it was so funny in the book how you kept saying,
[14:34]like, how you showed us when you got the idea to make it into a book
[14:38]and then how you had to like keep justifying it to yourself and like
[14:41]telling other people that you think, hey, it's going to be a
[14:43]look. And then you're like, oh, well, now here we are,
[14:46]reading this book. So I guess if it gave me a book.
[14:49]It's pretty. Yeah, there's, I feel like there's two voices in the book
[14:52]actually. One is slightly unhinged and that's the voice of me
[14:56]when I'm in that year. And kind of in my hotel room,
[15:00]rising up the notes about, you know, with my gin and tonic or
[15:05]when my pudding or whatever. And kind of, yeah, I mean, at
[15:10]God, I remember it was such a hot night. And I was lying in
[15:13]this hotel room with all these insects on the
[15:16]ceiling. I was reading the Andre Agassi book. So amazing.
[15:20]And it was so dark and in the book. And I was having such an
[15:24]intense dark experience. And so, you know, I'd get out my
[15:28]iPhone and write a load of notes. So there's this quite unhinged,
[15:32]crazed voice. And yeah, then this voice of me,
[15:35]later trying to put some of the pieces together.
[15:38]But yeah, the whole kind of I'm writing a book thing was part
[15:42]of the more unhinged voice, I think. And yeah, definitely
[15:46]before I did this project, I just had this idea that if you said,
[15:50]I'm going to do this thing for a year and write a book about it,
[15:53]that you were somehow magically protected from that going wrong,
[15:57]or you were in the kind of bubble of a book. And therefore, not only
[16:02]could you do anything and put it all on expenses,
[16:05]go and stay in hotels and have sparse massages,
[16:09]and my tennis records and stuff. But that I should know,
[16:14]all of those projects, they always go right, don't they? And then
[16:18]mine didn't, because I tried to harden and had an nervous breakdown. But
[16:22]you shouldn't laugh. No, I mean, I guess part of the book,
[16:28]and I think this works for some people and perhaps not others will see. But
[16:33]I tried to just take a really honest and slightly kind of darkly funny
[16:38]approach to what is in a way quite a sad story of trying to do something
[16:44]and you know, and failing really. And I guess now there's quite a lot of
[16:48]stuff out there about failure and failure podcasts and so on. But
[16:52]this was quite a spectacular one. I had no idea of all the
[16:56]stupid mistakes I was making. I didn't know that you
[16:59]couldn't just train for eight hours a day. You know, that that
[17:04]I didn't think that might have a bad effect or that
[17:08]all the constant pressure to win. And I could became my own tennis
[17:12]parent in a way. And that I didn't think that would have a
[17:15]psychological impact until I completely crashed at the end of the
[17:19]year. Well, if you had to do it again, we do still go through it
[17:23]on. Oh, that's such an interesting question. So I think for
[17:27]everything else in my life, I'd say, yeah, sure, no regrets.
[17:32]This I don't know. See, I've lost things. I can't play tennis anymore.
[17:38]I'll ask. And I don't have, you know, when you kind of
[17:43]hit rock bottom of your energy, but then you can dig deeper and find more.
[17:47]I don't have that anymore. I've got the bottom and then I don't have the dig deeper
[17:51]part. So it's like a broke something a little bit. And
[17:56]yeah, you always think I can walk another five miles if I have to, or I can
[18:00]work for another three hours if I have to. And now I have,
[18:03]I have more limits than I used to. So that's taken a bit
[18:06]getting used to. So yeah, no, I wouldn't do it again.
[18:12]I didn't do it differently in win and be fine.
[18:17]Do you really think, no, seriously, though, like, do you think winning
[18:20]would have made it all better? No, it would have made it worse.
[18:23]I think because I think it structurally, it was kind of like
[18:28]any other sort of addiction where, you know, if I had one
[18:32]a local tournament, I would have needed to win the next
[18:35]grade up. And I don't think I could ever have
[18:39]got where I needed or wanted to get, you know, and I was never going to win.
[18:45]I mean, some of the people I was encountering on the senior circuit
[18:48]once I really got into that were, you know, they'd been professional players in
[18:53]the past. They played for their countries. They, you know, played
[18:57]in big tournaments when they were younger. And I hadn't done any of
[19:00]that. So yeah, it's just, I guess maybe my life was
[19:05]complicated at the time I was writing this book and I was
[19:08]encountering my parents getting ill for the first time and,
[19:12]you know, complications professionally and in my career as a novelist. And
[19:16]just felt like such a simple and glorious thing winning.
[19:19]Just, you know, just something that never occurred to me before
[19:22]you could win a tournament. And it would be amazing. And you get that
[19:26]lovely warm glow. And, you know, going to have your dinner and drink a glass
[19:30]wine and think I'm a champion. And, you know, that really
[19:33]once and I just wanted it again. I'm sorry, you didn't have it again.
[19:37]Oh, well. So elusive thrill of success. But I mean,
[19:43]hopefully the fact that it's now a book has made you feel a little better.
[19:47]Maybe? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Absolutely. I mean, it looks great.
[19:51]And, you know, I'm just starting to get some feedback. And
[19:55]yeah, I'm nervous about it. I'm probably more nervous about it than I've
[19:57]been about any of my novels. Any of my
[20:00]other books. This is the first time I've put myself out there in a memoir and you know if people don't
[20:06]like it do they not like me and that's okay but it isn't and yeah like as you know the tone of the
[20:14]book is quite dark in places and honest like I've said and I think it's funny well we kind of think
[20:20]it's funny right but not everyone's going to think it's funny and not everyone's going to like
[20:24]tennis enough it's quite detailed on the tennis. It is detailed on the tennis I liked that
[20:29]because you don't often see that particularly from women about tennis and like unless you're
[20:35]like Serena or something right I mean I really enjoyed tennis and it wasn't too detailed I mean
[20:41]there's a book have you read by Roland Ricardo Phillips is called The Circuit oh no I haven't actually
[20:46]that came out I had him on my podcast maybe like two years ago or something and it's very literary but
[20:51]it's his year of following the circuit the men's circuit so he goes like all the events on the tour
[20:57]and writes in detail about every match and you know who's his favorite and I don't know I think
[21:02]at the time I can't remember who my favorite tennis guy was at the time but oh I was like in a del
[21:06]poetry or phase or something and he was really liking I don't know in a doll or something anyway
[21:11]but that was very much like match by match so you felt like you were almost watching but you
[21:15]definitely have to focus when you're reading about tennis to like get it make sure you keep it
[21:20]all in your head but I like that like I like I like that challenge I'm not a challenge I mean it's not
[21:26]hard to I'm making the sound bad I like following a match by reading about it I think it's
[21:32]interesting and I and I thought you did a good job doing it but I don't know I don't think you
[21:36]have to love tennis to like I like reading all books about sports I'll read like a football book
[21:41]or like as long as there's a story behind it because it's really the story that's the important part
[21:47]yeah I mean I love all those books about running you know running with yeah yes and and I think
[21:54]in those books as well there's a kind of a level of detail about you know what kind of shoes
[21:59]and what's the barefoot running book called oh yeah yeah I'm not gonna remember but yes I know
[22:04]what you mean I've got it downstairs and all the intricate detail about you know running shoes
[22:10]and how they're made and how cushions they are and whether you run on your you know midfoot or
[22:15]you know four foot running and so all of that level of detail I love even if I don't do the thing
[22:21]I do try and run but I'm a really bad runner so yeah I just I guess I thought other people would
[22:26]want that level of detail too it's quite nerdy and real but yeah I mean because skip those parts
[22:34]no you don't have to skip them I mean there's a huge we there's so many people who were
[22:40]college athletes high school athletes just like always did something growing up and there's not
[22:46]a huge role for sports in middle age even if you used to be good at something and you know as I
[22:52]said I'm sure you're far better than me even but there's something that people miss about that right
[22:57]because when you're training for so long you're like practicing you don't realize that you get
[23:00]older and then like well when are you supposed to do this again except if you're at the country
[23:04]club tennis circuit or something so I don't know an LA where we visit quite often they there's like
[23:11]this live fall craze going on now it's moving more to like pickleball or something but
[23:16]where grownups get together and they're like ranked by skill level and then there's six people
[23:20]and you have to weave in and out do you know what I'm talking about do you do that or no but it sounds
[23:25]cool yeah I read about pickleball somewhere I've got no idea what it is but it sounds it's great
[23:31]yeah pickleball I've only tried once but live ball was was great because you don't even think
[23:36]about it right you have to move it's like drills you know like a anyway I don't know I'm going
[23:42]on and I'm so sorry this is like such a ramble for me because I'm so interested in your topic
[23:47]normally I could just like talk about the book itself and you know the writing and okay I should
[23:51]ask questions like that how long did it take for you to write this book oh um ages actually because
[23:57]I took all the notes when I was doing it which was kind of manian 2014 but then I have my kind
[24:05]of weird nervous breakdown and and then so 2015 was a super weird year for me I tried to finish
[24:12]the book and then I had to put it to one side and then I would just pick it up and go oh this
[24:18]book about my mag year it's actually quite good I'll just add a little bit but oh no it's too painful
[24:23]put it away again so yeah it actually took a few years for it to come together it wasn't like
[24:29]any other writing experience I've ever had where I would you know sit down to write a novel and
[24:35]depending on the length of the project and my goals you know it would be done in two years or
[24:40]five years or three months you know so yeah this is one instance of when in and out of what are
[24:47]you working on now and now I am working a manian TV shows so I've got a couple of shows in
[24:53]development their original projects and I have got a novel going in the background which is called
[24:59]Starkiss and it's about two teenage girls in their friendship one of them has just woken up
[25:04]from a three month coma oh wow to find that her siblings have been live streaming her coma
[25:10]on YouTube so she's kind of become famous while she was asleep and wow so yeah that's really fun
[25:16]to work on that's a great concept I love that that would be great amazing do you have any advice
[25:22]for aspiring artists or authors rather or artists I guess whatever yeah so I guess I mean
[25:29]don't give up obviously but I think the main one is about being authentic and finding your voice
[25:35]and whatever your project is if you find the voice and the tone and the mood for it and and then
[25:44]you can kind of let that voice be free I think that's the main thing I've been teaching creative
[25:49]rights and now for I feel old I mean more than 20 years and I think that's what it comes down to
[25:58]in the end there's all the other stuff you can learn but it's about you know who's the person that's
[26:03]just sat you down by the campfire and is telling you this story and how do they do that and how
[26:08]do they sound and are they funny and are they irreverent are they serious you know and then just to
[26:14]kind of channel that voice from within you so yeah that's that's my advice well I would add that
[26:21]not liking the memoir does not mean that people don't like you you know you said you were worried
[26:25]about that yeah that's not what it means and okay first of all I think people will like the memoir
[26:31]and they will also like you but the two do not necessarily go hand in hand this is just a product
[26:36]right this is one little sliver and even though you reveal all this stuff you know people don't
[26:40]evaluate it in the way that they evaluate a person so I would put all that aside I'm sure you
[26:46]know this logically but they will still like it no matter what you might yeah I think I haven't
[26:53]thought that but it's true enough for I don't know yeah but thank you that makes it a bit better
[26:59]okay well keep me posted let me know how it goes and I had this idea I wanted to do like an
[27:07]author tennis invitation all I wanted to like go down to Charleston or since I can invite all these
[27:11]authors to complain to tennis tournament so I don't know if I do that maybe you could be a you know
[27:17]if you still don't want to play referee or I don't know something not that maybe I'm back in
[27:22]training that sounds like so much fun great wouldn't ever be fun yeah it would I must admit every
[27:28]day well I don't go out my bike every day but every time I cycle past the lovely tennis club
[27:34]in the town where I live with all the beautiful lawn you know grass courts I think oh you know
[27:40]maybe next year I'll be ready to go back because I do still love it you know maybe I'll just
[27:46]play for an hour and then go home and that could be fine so yeah who knows now I'm gonna like
[27:53]trigger some sort of relapse for you but it'll take me at least a year to organize it so no worries
[28:00]I'll stop shining slowly no trading no trading a lap okay no trading a lap no all right well it
[28:07]was so great to meet you scarling congratulations on your back okay okay bye okay bye do bye
[28:12]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to
[28:18]follow me on instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for
[28:23]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[28:28]every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact texture sound for the sound editing
[28:33]and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music