Gretchen Carlson, BE FIERCE: Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:05]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:07]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:12]Check it out, and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things
[0:16]Moms Don't Have Time to Do. All the authors have been on this podcast.
[0:19]Also, check out my TikTok at with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:22]My other podcast, Sex Talk with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:25]Check out Moms Don't Have Time to Write on Medium.
[0:28]And of course, my new publishing company called Sivi Books.
[0:32]And now back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[0:36]Hi, hi, hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:39]Gretchen Carlson is the author of Be Fierce.
[0:44]Stop harassment and take your power back.
[0:46]Gretchen is an internationally recognized advocate for women's rights,
[0:49]whose bold actions against Fox News Chairman Roger Ailes helped pave the way
[0:54]for the global hashtag MeToo movement,
[0:56]named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World.
[1:00]She is the author of the best-selling books Be Fierce and Getting Real.
[1:03]One of America's most successful television journalists,
[1:06]Gretchen has reported our nation's biggest stories for nearly two decades
[1:10]at CBS News and Fox News.
[1:12]Since 2017, she has advocated in Congress for the bipartisan
[1:16]ending forced arbitration of Sexual Harassment Act.
[1:19]Co-founded the nonprofit Lift Our Voices to eradicate forced arbitration
[1:23]and NDAs, and returned to television as a special contributor
[1:26]to the new People Magazine show People TV.
[1:29]Carlson also hosts a daily, straight down the middle news podcast,
[1:33]Get the News with Gretchen Carlson on Quake Media.
[1:35]Her many honors include the Sandra Day O'Connor Lifetime Achievement Award,
[1:39]Now's Women of Power and Influence Award,
[1:41]and the Radio and Television Digital News Association's first Amendment Leadership Award.
[1:45]Carlson is a March of Times trustee,
[1:47]a member of Women Moving Millions,
[1:49]and supports underserved women through her gift of courage fund.
[1:52]Welcome, Gretchen.
[1:53]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:54]On mom's don't have time to read books.
[1:56]To discuss your whole life, your books, your everything,
[2:00]this new bill.
[2:01]I mean, there's so much to talk about.
[2:02]I don't even know where to start.
[2:04]I know.
[2:05]You know, it's really interesting because I've been accused of being a multi-tasker
[2:08]in my whole life.
[2:09]And I'm, yes, I'm, I'm living that.
[2:10]But I've always been like that.
[2:11]I'm sure you're the same.
[2:12]Maybe it's like, and so many moms listening.
[2:14]We're so busy.
[2:15]Yeah.
[2:16]And yet somehow we figure out how to get it all done before we drop ourselves
[2:20]into bed at night before the alarm comes off really early in the morning again.
[2:23]And I just think this is one of the qualities that we should celebrate as women that we are so good at this.
[2:28]And I always look at my husband, not to knock on men,
[2:30]but I always look at my husband.
[2:31]I'm like, he can only do pretty much like one thing at a time.
[2:36]No.
[2:37]And it's like, I'm doing all this other stuff.
[2:39]So I know everyone listening can relate to that.
[2:42]That is so funny.
[2:43]By the way, I haven't like,
[2:44]aside from when I don't have my kids,
[2:46]I never hear my alarm.
[2:47]I mean, the dog, the kids, like someone's waking me up.
[2:50]Their alarm would be nice.
[2:52]Well, I know because I think once we have kids,
[2:55]our own alarm system kind of takes over.
[2:57]And I don't know about you, but like I wake up at like the little,
[3:00]tinyest pin drop of a sound.
[3:02]And then I'm off in London.
[3:03]I sort of thinking, you know.
[3:04]And I'm like, oh gosh, where are they?
[3:06]I have a daughter who just went to college this year.
[3:08]So then she's home.
[3:09]She's home a little bit.
[3:10]And she makes a lot of noise in the middle of the night.
[3:12]She doesn't go to bed.
[3:13]So anyway, this is how moms operate.
[3:16]We're always on the go.
[3:17]How old is your other child?
[3:19]So my daughter's 18.
[3:20]My, my sons in that junior year of high school,
[3:23]that's so tough.
[3:24]You haven't got an area,
[3:25]but he's a junior.
[3:26]So he's 16.
[3:27]So I had, they're both driving and moving on up.
[3:30]My gosh.
[3:31]My twins are 14 and a half.
[3:32]So we don't have that long to wait.
[3:34]Oh my gosh.
[3:35]Just, just wait.
[3:36]I mean, relish it now because I mean,
[3:37]the driving part is good.
[3:38]You're in the city.
[3:39]So maybe it won't be driving as much.
[3:40]But the driving part is good because it takes a little bit of the
[3:43]illness off of mom and everyone else to be driving kids around.
[3:47]But then you worry about them driving.
[3:49]I worry about everything anyway.
[3:50]I mean, there's so many things to worry about.
[3:52]It would just be moving it from one place to another.
[3:54]I feel like I'm already at maximum worry.
[3:57]So you're ready.
[3:59]You're ready.
[4:00]You're ready.
[4:01]Oh gosh.
[4:02]Very great.
[4:03]Thanks for that.
[4:04]Really excited.
[4:05]Well, okay.
[4:07]So in get real, your first book,
[4:09]your grandfather calls you sparkles.
[4:11]Right.
[4:12]Which I thought was the cutest thing ever.
[4:14]And it just really speaks to how you shine as a person
[4:18]and how you have gone from your Swedish family based in Minnesota,
[4:24]all the way to being Miss America,
[4:27]to Fox and friends,
[4:29]to now this huge advocate for women and so much else in
[4:33]podcaster and everything.
[4:34]Like your life story is so fascinating and inspiring.
[4:38]You must get that all the time probably.
[4:41]But when you think back just to like go back to your growing up
[4:44]and you paint a portrait of your parents
[4:47]and where they came from and your mom
[4:50]and how strong woman she was and all of it.
[4:52]And like how how do you go from the girl who,
[4:56]you know, the teacher didn't believe you could read
[4:58]and you have to run home and say like I can read,
[5:00]I can read.
[5:01]How do you go from that to like overcoming
[5:04]and just like being the person you are?
[5:06]And I don't know like what did your parents do right?
[5:10]Well, thank you so much.
[5:11]I always say my life has worked in mysterious ways
[5:13]and I think so many women can relate to this
[5:15]whether they're reinventing themselves later on in life
[5:18]or trying to figure out what they want to do with their life
[5:20]when they're, you know, young.
[5:22]We're always faced with those hurdles
[5:24]and my life is a great example of reinventing yourselves
[5:27]many times over and I hope that can be inspiring to other people.
[5:30]I would just say that I'm so blessed to have grown up
[5:33]in a small town in Minnesota
[5:34]where the Protestant work ethic was alive and well
[5:37]which means that you worked incredibly hard
[5:39]and at the same time my mom and my dad would say to me
[5:42]every night when they put me to bed, you know Gretchen
[5:45]you can be anything you want to be
[5:47]but it's going to take a tremendous amount of work
[5:50]and so I learned that from an early age.
[5:53]I mean, not only to be inspired by parents
[5:55]that believed in me and told me I could be anything
[5:57]but that the caveat was always you don't have a free ride.
[6:01]Like you're going to have to work incredibly hard
[6:03]and so I did that early on
[6:05]and I was a really serious musician
[6:07]and then I burned out with faxes
[6:09]and I reinvented myself
[6:10]although my mom wanted me to keep playing violin
[6:12]which is how I got involved in this America
[6:14]but then I was going to be a lawyer
[6:16]and I went off to Stanford University
[6:17]but then the American thing put me in the direction
[6:20]of television so then I thought
[6:21]well I've always been inquisitive
[6:22]I guess I'll go and try to be a reporter
[6:25]knowing that my LSATs were still good for five years
[6:27]in case I failed
[6:28]and then that journey just, you know, kept putting me
[6:31]into new cities and new promotions and new places
[6:34]and then when I got to Fox
[6:36]I mean never could I ever envisioned in my life
[6:39]after rising to the top of the television industry
[6:42]which was my dream
[6:43]never could I imagine that I would become
[6:45]one of the poster children for sexual harassment
[6:47]and workplace
[6:48]I mean that's not something you aspire to Zibi
[6:51]when you're building out your resume
[6:53]and yet everything I learned as a child
[6:55]including the courage that it took to come forward
[6:58]I harkened back to that
[7:00]I harkened back to who I was as a five-year-old
[7:03]being gutsy
[7:04]and I determined that if I don't jump off this cliff
[7:07]and finally say something about this, who will
[7:10]and so my childhood
[7:12]and my upbringing has a tremendous amount
[7:14]to do with who I ended up becoming
[7:17]all of these years later
[7:18]and I hope that people listening will
[7:21]look back on their own childhood
[7:23]and really dig deep and find those things
[7:25]that you're still living through today
[7:28]because I think whether it's adversity
[7:30]or something good
[7:31]those are our life lessons
[7:33]that I know have continued to propel me into any future goal
[7:36]well that's amazing
[7:38]by the way you should be
[7:39]why are you not
[7:40]I know you in the book he said
[7:41]or somewhere you said
[7:42]you know you're an independent
[7:44]in terms of politics
[7:45]but I feel like you should be a leader
[7:48]like why are you not in politics
[7:50]I feel like you'd be so great
[7:52]like president
[7:53]or you're so well spoken
[7:54]and like you're I mean
[7:56]have you thought about it
[7:57]just yeah
[7:58]well thank you for saying that
[8:00]you know I did write in my high school year book
[8:02]when I was a senior
[8:04]somebody reminded me of this recently
[8:06]that I wrote some day
[8:08]that maybe I would be in Miss America
[8:09]and that I wanted to be president of the United States
[8:12]but so never say never
[8:14]I was asked to run for Senate
[8:16]in the state of Connecticut
[8:17]where I live now
[8:18]that I was not interested
[8:20]in aligning with either party
[8:22]and that's currently my conundrum
[8:25]I think that we are so divided
[8:28]as a nation
[8:29]and it really really bothers me
[8:31]and I think women in general
[8:33]are much more about compromise
[8:34]sometimes than even men are
[8:35]because men look at like the totem pole of power
[8:38]and women look more about coming together
[8:40]in a circle to get things done
[8:42]and that's how I look at politics
[8:44]and I guess I would just say
[8:46]that maybe the road that I'm taking now
[8:48]on that journey
[8:49]who knows where I end up
[8:51]but that road I'm doing right now
[8:52]and trying to pass my legislation
[8:54]so I'm you know I'm learning so much
[8:56]about how the political system works
[8:59]and it was so important to me
[9:01]that it was bipartisan
[9:02]so you know who knows where this ends up
[9:05]if I can get this legislation past
[9:07]it'll be an insurmountable task
[9:09]and so I never say never
[9:11]I would just add as the caveat on that
[9:13]is that there's no money in being
[9:14]independent politics
[9:15]and that's why we haven't seen
[9:17]more independence rise to the top
[9:19]because the political parties
[9:21]are so powerful
[9:22]in the amount of money they give
[9:23]to Republicans and Democrats
[9:24]there's no money for independence
[9:26]so if anyone's inspired
[9:28]who's listening we should be rallying
[9:30]for a third party
[9:31]so that we could really get
[9:33]you know 43% of Americans
[9:34]identify as independent
[9:36]and and we're leaving all those people
[9:38]out in the dust by not having
[9:40]money behind a political party
[9:42]Wow
[9:43]that should be your thing
[9:44]you're next thing
[9:45]after you've passed this
[9:46]I mean yes
[9:47]maybe
[9:48]tell listeners about this legislation
[9:50]that you're trying to push through
[9:52]how personal it is
[9:54]and all the good news about it lately
[9:55]thank you yes
[9:56]so right after my story
[9:57]when I see Fox News
[9:58]for harassment
[9:59]five and a half
[10:00]to go now, I thought it was just me. And that's the way the system has led women to believe over
[10:07]the last 30, 40 years on kind of on purpose to keep all these issues silent in the workplace.
[10:12]So you feel like you're by yourself. One of the major reasons was that corporations have put these
[10:17]policies in workplace contracts that make sure that it stays secret. And so after I started hearing
[10:24]from thousands of women who reached out to me after my story saying, hey, the same thing happened to me,
[10:28]and I was also shoved into secrecy. I decided I had to do something about it. I had to pay
[10:33]tribute to all of these women who no one has ever heard from ever again. And Zibi, the most horrific
[10:39]thing that I learned was that they don't work again. So, you know, they think they're doing the
[10:43]right thing. They come forward. They have the courage to do that. They're immediately the
[10:46]labeled as the pariah and the troublemaker. They're blacklisted, demoted, and fired, and pushed out
[10:51]of the company. And then they go to these secret places to adjudicate what happened to them, which is
[10:56]what I'm trying to eliminate instead of an open jury process. Now they might get some sort of
[11:01]a paltry settlement, but most of the time they don't. And the crux of the whole matter for me was,
[11:06]they don't ever work in their chosen profession ever again. And so what I'm trying to find out now
[11:11]is how many women have we pushed out as a result of silencing people? And it's why I founded my
[11:16]nonprofit, Lift Our Voices, about two years ago, to really zone in on these two silencing
[11:21]mechanisms in your workplace contract. And I encourage everyone who works, go look at your contract,
[11:26]because most people don't even know. The first thing is a forced arbitration clause. What does that
[11:32]mean? Means you can't go to an open jury if you have a problem. You have to go to this secret
[11:36]chamber called arbitration where nobody ever knows what happened to you. Number two, these expansive
[11:42]non-disclosure agreements. Now, of course, companies should be able to protect their trade secrets.
[11:47]That was the point of end of the years to begin with, but they become so broad that basically when
[11:51]you start on your first day of work, it's like you're, we've been walking in with masks on,
[11:55]but it's basically like you're muzzled from ever being able to tell anything bad that might
[12:00]happen to you. So my bill is very narrow because I want to get both sides on it. And it is a
[12:06]eradicating forced arbitration clauses for harassment and assault in the workplace. That's it.
[12:12]I mean, I believe you shouldn't be using them for race discrimination or for gender discrimination
[12:16]or age discrimination or LGBTQ discrimination as well. And I'll get there, but first we're tackling
[12:22]harassment and assault. And the great news that I've seen this transformation over the last five
[12:28]years, even with members of Congress and becoming much more in tune with this issue and becoming
[12:33]much more open with trying to solve it. So the first time I introduced the bill in the House and the
[12:38]Senate bipartisan at the end of 2017, it never really went anywhere. And then we had the whole
[12:44]Trump situation, which, you know, didn't help this issue, but exciting news that we reintroduced
[12:50]in the House and the Senate in July. And now it's gotten out of both the Senate Judiciary Committee
[12:56]and the House Judiciary Committee in bipartisan fashion. This is huge news because bills stay alive
[13:02]by getting through committee. And now it's going to go to the floor of the Senate and the floor
[13:07]of the House. And so I spent much of the last six months on the phone or in person with members
[13:13]of Congress trying to get them on board. And I'm happy to report that I'm almost there to assure
[13:19]that this passes. And I would just tell you that this will be the biggest labor lot change
[13:24]in the last 100 years. And it will take women's issues out of the shadows of secrecy
[13:32]for millions of women out there. And I often, you know, say when people introduce me, like
[13:37]I say, well, you were this and you were that. I'm like, yeah, but you know what? The most important
[13:41]thing that I will ever do in my life, other than having my children, is passing this legislation.
[13:47]This will be my greatest life achievement. And then I'll move on to trying to do it for more
[13:52]disenfranchised groups. But it's just really, really important that this gets done so that we
[13:57]actually tackle this issue by talking about it and taking it out of the shadows.
[14:02]How can everybody like the regular person at home, how can we help get this through?
[14:07]Yeah. Well, thank you. First of all, women do not call their members of Congress by a margin of
[14:12]10 to 1 for men do. So we have to realize that our voice is important. Every voice counts. And
[14:20]especially in whatever state you live in, when you call your member of Congress, they pay attention
[14:25]because you are their constituent. So please call them or write them and say that you support
[14:31]Senate Bill 2342 and House Bill 4445. Exact same language. They have different numbers in different
[14:40]but say that you support that. We also got 65 organizations around the country from domestic
[14:45]violence to harassment to assault to also sign on to the bill. And I got hundreds, even thousands
[14:50]of individual survivors to sign on as well. And I'm telling you that makes a difference. Because
[14:56]when members of Congress look down and they see, oh my gosh, there's 20 people from Idaho who signed
[15:01]this letter for Gretchen Carlson. They pay attention because those are their voters. So please
[15:07]email your members of Congress or call them and about a lot of issues, but especially about this
[15:12]one. That's so interesting. I've never called a member of Congress. It's like, yeah, it's really
[15:17]beefy now. You can email them. It's really important that men should not be the only voice. And
[15:24]one of my favorite quotes in life, it happens to be anonymous, but it is one woman makes a difference,
[15:28]but together we rock the world. And that's what I think about every morning when I get up,
[15:33]whether it's trying to pass my legislation or the way in which I raise my kids or,
[15:37]you know, getting my nonprofit off the ground or doing my podcast or going down to work for people
[15:43]TV on television or whatever it is. Yeah, one woman, we all can make a difference. But when we
[15:49]decide we're going to get together and be vocal, that's when we really change the world.
[15:56]So inspiring. I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, you're a total role model for just advocating and going
[16:03]out and doing it. I mean, it's, it's amazing. We need more people like you to be getting us all
[16:08]together. It's really amazing. Can you share what happened with your, are you even allowed now? Like,
[16:14]can you, I mean, you must because you felt the lesson and everything. But can you share publicly what
[16:19]the sexual harassment incident was that set you off on this whole path? No. No. I mean, that's what
[16:25]because I am silenced by an incredibly stringent NBA. There have been movies made about my story,
[16:31]bombshell. There was a whole showtime mini series, the loudest voice made about my story. And I
[16:36]could not participate. I can't even tell you if they were accurate or not. All I can say is that
[16:41]wow, the idea that when I was crying my eyes out, finally this lawsuit, not knowing what was
[16:45]going to happen to be the next minute, our day, that the idea that two amazing actresses like
[16:51]Naomi Watts and Nicole Kidman, who are best friends in life, by the way, that they would portray
[16:56]my story. But, you know, I do have to take the above board approach to it, even though I couldn't
[17:02]participate in just saying that wow for that number two, that they even wanted to do movies and
[17:08]mini series about harassment because before this, nobody gave it to him. And then number three,
[17:13]that even if one woman was inspired to come forward as a result of those projects, then that makes
[17:18]it worth it. But someday, I would like to own my own voice. And that's why I'm working so hard
[17:22]to make sure that future women and my children own their own voices. And we've made massive strides
[17:29]in a short period of time. I mean, a lot of women now are saying, I'm not going to sign that
[17:33]in PA anymore. A lot of women are breaking their NDAs. And so no, I can't tell you, you know,
[17:40]I can't tell you my 11 years of hell at Fox, but all I can say, and this is how I have to go
[17:46]and overdrive all the time with my brain, because I have to think three times as hard as anyone
[17:50]else about like, what can I say going up to the line that will still be in, you know, good standing
[17:55]with my NDAs. And that is that, you know, when I finally realized that a career that I had killed
[18:02]myself for after 30 years, that that was going to be taken away from me. And it wasn't my choice,
[18:08]that's when I decided to jump off the cliff. And, you know, look, courage, it's not an easy process.
[18:16]It's not like it was something like this or anything else that your listeners are going through
[18:20]in their own personal lives. It's not like you suddenly just decide one day to do it. Courage is
[18:25]not like walking into a room slipping on a light switch and saying, Hey, I'm here. It's years
[18:32]in my case, years of building up the courage. And I know people can relate to that about other
[18:37]things they're struggling with in their lives. And I just hope that, and I know like,
[18:42]I've encouraged so many other people to do the same thing. And I think inadvertently I ignited
[18:47]this movement. And I'm just so proud that other people have found the courage to come forward. But
[18:53]we must stop silencing women. And even though I may never own my own personal story,
[18:58]I want to make sure that other people own theirs.
[19:01]How did this, how did it affect this is totally personal? You don't have to answer. But I know
[19:06]you're married to like a sports agent and you had some funny line about like dealing with his
[19:12]big deal career or something like that. How do you navigate your marriage when there's some sort
[19:18]of sexual thing going on at work? And especially this has become, you know, a mission for you to
[19:25]eradicate this for everybody else, which is amazing. So in the in the most personal areas,
[19:31]how do you navigate? Yeah, it's a great question. I would just say that I didn't discuss it a lot
[19:37]at home. My mom was really my sounding board. And I pretty much told, well, I didn't tell my mom
[19:43]everything at the beginning because how women are made to feel is like that it's your fault.
[19:48]And so I didn't even trust my own self to tell my mom what was going on because I didn't want
[19:54]to be judged, which is what happens to women, even our moms. Because we just feel, you know, we've
[19:59]been.
[20:00]socialized to feel embarrassed about these things, to not admit what they really are,
[20:03]to not speak up about them. Other women have told us not to speak up about them.
[20:07]So I didn't share a lot of it with my husband. I never shared it with my agent.
[20:12]And finally, I started telling my parents, and finally, I started telling my husband.
[20:18]But yeah, I don't think it's a good recipe for our great relationship at home to always be
[20:24]discussing what's happening to you at work that's horrible. I would just also
[20:28]though say that they ended up being my biggest support system. And no matter how old you are,
[20:34]I think you always want your parents to be proud of you and to agree with the decisions that
[20:40]you're making in your adult life. And one of the biggest decision-making points for me
[20:45]in coming forward was when my parents finally got on board and agreed that I should sue.
[20:50]You know, growing up in Minnesota, there's that Minnesota nice thing.
[20:54]And so people don't really think about suing people all the time. And so I think my parents had
[21:00]to get over that hurdle. But I remember distinctively sitting in the mudroom in my house and my
[21:05]parents called me both on the phone together and it was very emotional. They all cried and
[21:10]they said, we're with you. And that was at least six months before I actually did it.
[21:15]And then, you know, my husband was just very, very supportive. And then I would just say that
[21:20]in the final moments I told my children the night before and looked into their eyes and
[21:26]hoped that I was doing the right thing for them and worried so much about how it was going to
[21:31]impact them. But I'll tell you these five years later that my kids have really, really surprised me
[21:37]about how contagious courage is and they've got it. And I've seen it play out in my daughter was
[21:44]having some trouble at school with some kids. And six months after my story, she came home and
[21:48]she said, mom, I finally told this one that and I told the other one this. And she said, mommy,
[21:54]I did it because I saw you do it. And that just made me break down and realize, wow, this courage
[22:03]moved to her. And my son in the same way, after I had done this CNN town hall once talking about
[22:10]these issues, I came home and he was waiting for me. And he looked at me and he said, mom, is it true
[22:14]what that other woman on TV said with you that once every 73 seconds that a woman is assaulted
[22:19]or harassed in our country? Mom, is that true? And I said, I'm so sorry to tell you, honey, that
[22:24]that is true. And he looked at me with tears in his eyes and he said, mom, as a young man,
[22:29]I want to do my part to fix that. Again, I hugged him so hard. And I thought, you know what,
[22:36]if it's only these two souls that I have moved to change, it's been worth it. But I know now
[22:43]that it's so much greater. And I still see it playing out in my kids. When they see my issues come
[22:50]up, whether it's on a debate for a president of the United States, where they actually asked about
[22:55]NDAs finally and my kids were cheering with me in the kitchen. Or they say to me, they hear
[23:00]something on TV and they'll look over at me and they'll be like, all right, I know how mom feels
[23:05]about this. And now I know how I feel about this so they become really educated on it. And I think
[23:09]most importantly for my son, one of the biggest untold stories in all of this is
[23:14]how we need to make sure we get to our sons with this information. Because they form their opinions
[23:19]about women early on. And we're probably not going to change a bunch of older CEOs out there,
[23:26]although I have hope, but we're really going to change our young boys. And when they become
[23:31]and women become the next general counsel and CEOs of companies, we want to arm them with the
[23:37]information of respecting them. Because then they will not force women into silence with these
[23:42]classes. And they'll also pay them fairly and promote them and put them in the boardroom.
[23:48]So I think it's one of the greatest lessons that I've learned is that getting to our boys
[23:52]and to our men and inviting them into the conversation is huge.
[23:56]I totally agree. And also when you said first of all, it's not true that you've only
[24:01]impacted those two souls. But I know what you mean. If every mother did that, that would be
[24:06]everybody. I mean, what better grassroots marketing is that? Having everybody tell their own
[24:13]kids. So it's a pretty powerful play in and of itself. Right? What we teach our children. So
[24:18]I mean, that sounds so obvious. But no, and I've found myself changing the way our parents and
[24:22]it's my story. I watch the words that I say, you know, we use a lot of words in our society
[24:27]that inadvertently puts women in their place. And we raise our girls to be perfectionists,
[24:32]unfortunately, to color inside the lines. We raise our boys to be risk takers. We got to,
[24:38]we got to try and change change that part of it. But also, you know, I don't know if it's a
[24:41]Midwestern thing or everyone does it, but we call everyone guys like I'm guilty of that. And my
[24:46]daughter said to me a couple years ago, mom, why don't you call me a guy? I'm a girl. And I was like,
[24:50]you know what? You're right. Also, one thing that women do all the time. And I know once I say this,
[24:56]you're going to think about this every time you do it. And that's why I say it because I hope you do.
[25:00]We apologize and say I'm sorry about 50 times a day. When you walk into a door and somebody
[25:06]like is coming towards you, you go, oh, I'm sorry. Even though you have no guilt at all. And
[25:13]I don't know who was supposed to go out of the door first, but don't say you're sorry.
[25:16]Because you're not sorry for anything. You're just coming into a door or you're leaving a door.
[25:21]And I find myself telling my daughter this all the time. She'll say, oh, sorry mom, I'm like,
[25:25]unless you've done something that you legitimately want to say sorry for, take that back.
[25:30]So as women, we have to stop being, I know we're treated sometimes as a second class citizen,
[25:35]but we have to stop playing into it and take our power back and be like, I'm not going to say
[25:41]I'm sorry for walking through a door. Catch yourself. If you're listening now, I know you're going
[25:46]to catch yourself today. And please stop trying, you know, trying to get onto the cycle and stop
[25:51]saying I'm sorry. It's so funny. You said that because literally yesterday I was emailing someone
[25:57]on my team about like this manuscript that I hadn't really liked, but other people had liked.
[26:01]And so I started it and I was like, I'm sorry, but and then literally I stopped and I was like,
[26:07]why am I sorry? I'm not sorry. This is how I feel about it. So then I went back and I deleted it.
[26:11]And I just started, I'm going to pass on this because. And so anyway, I was channeling the you,
[26:15]but I have been trying to catch myself. So it's so funny to say that right now.
[26:20]Yes. And we have to be like, if I ever have my husband look over something I've written or vice
[26:25]his emails are so much more to the point. And you know, like I might say, well, I'm really hoping
[26:29]that you'd like to come to this event. No, I'd like you to come to this event. You know, it's just we
[26:35]this is the way we've been socialized. And unfortunately, this is the way society looks at us,
[26:39]which is why owning these issues like harassment and assault have been so hard coming because we've
[26:45]been told to push them down deep inside of ourselves and never talk about it ever again.
[26:50]And and and therefore that's why we're sorry for everything, right? We have to start being more
[26:56]forth, right? Get over that bossy hurdle where somebody thinks you're bossy. Screw that. No,
[27:02]we're not being bossy. We're just being like the guy next door that's asking for the same
[27:05]promotion or the same, you know, raise and pay. The more that we all start doing that and get
[27:11]out of the mold, the more that we won't be singled out as being the bossy aggressive woman.
[27:16]So before we go just to take this to the totally mundane, you started before we even recorded
[27:21]asking me how my workouts are going. So I'm wondering what is your workout regimen? What do you do?
[27:28]Well, so I was a chubby kid and I struggled. I struggled with my weight my whole life. And I know
[27:35]so many people have struggled with that. And I still I still struggle just with food. And like I
[27:41]use it as my reward system. And and my body loves to carry weight. I mean, look, I come from great
[27:48]Swedish stock. My whole family was farmers and the women were all tough. And they also had no
[27:53]curves because it was just straight down. So, you know, genetically, my body likes to be hefty. So,
[28:01]you know, I used to have nightmares when I was in junior high and you had to run that 440 race
[28:05]for the presidential medal or something. I don't think I remember that. I mean, I didn't sleep for
[28:09]months because I was so worried number one, I wouldn't finish it. And number two, I'd be dead
[28:14]last. And and so I had to just like other things in my life, I had to retool my brain to actually
[28:20]start working out. And I will say that I will give credit to the America system because that was
[28:25]one thing that jump started me to really, really, really get into shape. I'll never be that
[28:31]thin ever again, by the way. But it really, and I'm not advocating for anyone to be that thin. I'm
[28:36]just saying that it did jump start me and it became a runner. And so from going to be not sleeping
[28:42]for months to run the 440 to running five, six miles a day was a huge personal accomplishment for
[28:48]me. And it just really made me feel better about myself. My hip started giving out when I turned
[28:54]40. So, I don't run anymore. But I do believe that working out is a huge stress reliever for me.
[29:00]And I do it mostly for my mind. One thing that I've really gotten into since my story broke,
[29:06]especially for my mind, is Pilates. So, I'm really think it's important for women to stretch so
[29:12]that we don't get that hunched over and look as we get older and sit up straight, you know.
[29:17]And I'm constantly reminding myself of that. But Pilates helps you to strengthen those
[29:22]multiples that you never even thought about. And then for me, it strengthens my brain,
[29:27]because it's just quiet time, just for Gretchen for an hour. And I get so much power
[29:33]out of that. So, it's kind of a dual purpose. And then yes, I still do my cardio because I really
[29:37]believe that's the only way to sort of try to keep your weight in check if that's something that
[29:42]you're thinking about. And I do it because my favorite hobby is to eat and drink sharpening. And so,
[29:48]I really want to be able to kind of keep that all in moderation. But it's mainly for my psyche.
[29:54]And I hope that that's why other people work out this further psyche.
[29:57]My greatest hobby is to eat, I think, as well.
[30:00]I would love to answer the chart.
[30:05]That sounds great.
[30:06]You can compare our favorite brands.
[30:07]Yes.
[30:08]Just what are you reading now?
[30:10]Last question.
[30:11]Just wondering.
[30:12]Actually, two last questions.
[30:13]I keep going over.
[30:14]I'm sorry.
[30:15]I have so much to ask you.
[30:16]What are you reading now?
[30:17]And then what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[30:19]Oh, my gosh.
[30:20]Okay.
[30:21]Let me start with the inspiring authors.
[30:22]So I just really believe that if you think that you have a story
[30:27]that you do.
[30:28]Okay.
[30:29]So many people come to me.
[30:30]And they're like, well, I'm not really sure if anyone will care about
[30:33]this or whatever.
[30:34]It's just start writing it down.
[30:36]And you and I were talking earlier before about how I think it's
[30:40]actually easier sometimes to write a book than to actually market it
[30:44]and sell it.
[30:45]So just sit down and start.
[30:49]One of the things that I found to be really helpful was that I just spoke.
[30:54]I just spoke into recordings.
[30:56]And that really helped me to be more like William Faulkner and have
[31:01]stream of consciousness thinking.
[31:03]And oftentimes that just helps me to develop ideas rather than sitting
[31:07]there.
[31:08]I think sometimes when we go in front of our laptop we're like,
[31:10]well, this has to be perfect.
[31:11]And you have to worry about grammar and all that.
[31:13]That's not the way we speak.
[31:14]And it's frankly not the way we do TV, which kind of helped me to do
[31:17]this.
[31:18]So speak your story.
[31:19]Just speak your story.
[31:20]If you think you have a good idea and start by recording it in that
[31:24]way, it will translate all for you.
[31:27]And that's how I got my start both times when I wrote my book.
[31:30]With regard to what I'm reading now, I'm reading David Rubenstein's The
[31:34]American Experiment.
[31:35]I had a chance to interview him on my podcast.
[31:38]This latest book he talks about people that really paved the way to
[31:43]change society, which is something that I like.
[31:47]And what I did was I'm focusing on the female stories in his book.
[31:51]So whether it's Billie Jean King, who really paved the way that
[31:55]way or Madeline Albright, who was Secretary of State, of course,
[31:58]that's always inspiring to me.
[32:00]So when I look for books now, I look for guilty pleasures, too,
[32:03]that are just fun.
[32:04]But I also look for for other inspiration to keep me going on my path
[32:08]to.
[32:09]And how can listeners listen to your podcast and how can they
[32:11]find you and all that?
[32:13]Yeah.
[32:14]So I'm on quickmedia.com.
[32:15]It's called Get the News with Gretchen Carlson.
[32:18]It's just straight down the middle headlines.
[32:20]Eight to 10 headlines a day.
[32:21]I really felt like the nation needed it because people don't know
[32:24]where to go just to get the truth.
[32:26]And also, I'm on people TV.
[32:28]So peopletv.com.
[32:30]My nonprofit is listed are voices.org.
[32:33]Everyone has a stake in this.
[32:34]So please check that out.
[32:36]And my two books are getting real and be fierce.
[32:39]Amazing.
[32:40]I am so inspired by you.
[32:42]I'm so glad we talked and I'm going to be rooting for everything
[32:46]and following along.
[32:47]And just so excited.
[32:49]Thank you for having me, Zibi.
[32:51]And I'm really, I wanted to shout out to you two taking a risk
[32:54]and being brave because you're a great role model for other women
[32:57]by starting your own company.
[32:58]And this podcast, which has just blown up.
[33:00]I mean, you just never know.
[33:02]And I always say to women, right down those five things on a post
[33:05]it note that you've been meaning to do, but she haven't done yet
[33:08]and look at them every day.
[33:10]And one day you're just going to be you're going to be inspired
[33:13]to do it, whether it's listening to this podcast or to any other
[33:16]kind of book and finally tackle those things that you've been wanting
[33:20]to do because look at what can happen when you do that.
[33:23]You're a shining example of that.
[33:25]My life right now is a shining example of that.
[33:28]And so you can do it.
[33:30]Thank you.
[33:31]Yes.
[33:32]Together.
[33:33]All right.
[33:34]Thank you.
[33:35]Thanks, Zibi.
[33:36]Thank you.
[33:37]No, no, no, no, no.
[33:38]Another time.
[33:39]Oh, yeah.
[33:40]We'll have a chardonnay and a good meal.
[33:43]Thanks for listening to this episode of
[33:45]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[33:47]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[33:50]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[33:52]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com and sign
[33:55]up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom
[33:58]every other week.
[33:59]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound for the Sound Editing.
[34:03]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[34:05]fantastic intro and outro music.