Saumya Dave, WHAT A HAPPY FAMILY

2021-12-11 · 25:37 · Saumya Dave · Podcast Audio

[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast Moms don't have time to read books

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[0:30]Sivi Buggs and now back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids

[0:37]Hello, enjoy the show

[0:39]So Mia Dave is the author of what a happy family

[0:44]She is a writer resident psychiatrist and co-founder of this is for her. Her writing has been featured in the New York Times

[0:51]Huffington Post Refinery29 and others. She currently lives in New York City with her husband and son

[0:57]Welcome so Mia. Thank you so much for coming and Moms don't have time to read bugs to discuss

[1:01]What a happy family? Thank you so much for having me. I love this podcast. So I'm so excited to be here

[1:06]Oh, thank you. That means what? Okay, tell listeners what this book is about and then I want to know why this book

[1:13]Particularly after the success of your last book and how that all happened and you know all of that

[1:18]Sure, so what a happy family follows all of the members of the Jewish family

[1:22]So there's out there should family who live in the suburbs of Atlanta and

[1:26]All of them are going through different things in their lives

[1:28]And so the book really follows each character as they're navigating their own battles and and really asks the question

[1:34]How do families hurt us and how can they also heal us? I really wanted to talk about

[1:39]Mental health actually in a family because I'm a psychiatrist and I write fiction and I struggle to find books that

[1:47]portrayed mental health through fiction

[1:48]So I thought why not show through the lens of different family members and show that sometimes we might put the people

[1:54]We love most in certain roles and instead of seeing them for who they are holistically

[1:58]We put them back in those places and as those roles that we grew up seeing them as and that can make it hard for us to

[2:04]Empathize and to really understand and connect as they grow and evolve

[2:07]I wrote this book after my debut well-behaved Indian women came out in

[2:11]July of 2020 so fun time for a book to come out as I'm sure everyone listening knows about that and

[2:17]At that time so my husband my baby and I were living in Atlanta

[2:21]We we were living in New York and then we moved to Atlanta for what we thought was going to be a few months and then that turned into

[2:27]15 months and so we found ourselves

[2:30]Going from our apartment in New York City to this house with

[2:34]Multiple generations we had my grandparents in their 90s and then my son who was about seven months old when my debut came out and

[2:41]It was then that I realized that wow when family comes together

[2:44]There's such a tendency to go back into those roles that you may have played growing up no matter how old you are and

[2:50]There was this one moment where I was in my childhood bedroom and the white noise machine was on to keep my son asleep in his little

[2:57]Snoo bassinet, which for anyone listening is this smart bassinet that's supposed to put the baby to sleep on its own and

[3:02]I was reading through old journals from middle school and downstairs my mom was telling me what to eat

[3:07]She was yelling from downstairs. That would to eat and I thought how old am I?

[3:11]I am all of these cells. I'm in my mid thirties and I'm 12 and I'm 16 and

[3:17]It's so layered and it's so complicated. That's awesome. I know there is something about just when I walk in the door to my family home

[3:25]I'd be you just like lose any maturity any skills

[3:29]Emotional tools for coping it all just like goes back and I'm like, you know, what's in the fridge?

[3:36]I had so true. It's then the food is such a big part of it

[3:39]So that's so true. What is it the fridge right and then I'm like you don't have any food in here like yeah, I did no

[3:48]Or whatever anyway, they always have ice cream sandwiches for the kids. So you know

[3:52]As long as there's some bribery involved

[3:56]Yes, that's the key for I've learned with with my own one side is that good bribery really works

[4:01]Especially with ice cream in the mix. So I hear that

[4:03]So as a psychiatrist were you practicing for those 15 months?

[4:07]Did you like how did you end up writing this book and keeping your job and doing like all of that and how much of

[4:13]Like did you take from any particular patience or was this just like an overall reflection?

[4:18]I was more of an overall reflection and the timing worked out such that I gave birth in December 2019 and I had graduated from my residency

[4:25]So I trade up Mount Sinai and I was finished in June of 2019

[4:29]So I had the six-month window between when I was done with residency and then I was giving birth

[4:34]I also took my medical boards in the middle of that and

[4:37]My plan was to get an office space here in New York and start seeing patients in my own private practice when my son was about three months old

[4:44]And of course as we all know March of 2020 is when things changed in so many different ways

[4:50]So I started seeing people virtually part-time a few months after that

[4:54]So I'd say a little bit after my debut came out

[4:56]I started seeing people virtually and I still do that part-time and it was at that time that I also then started writing this book

[5:03]So it was a mix of a lot of different things going on as I imagine that was a case for so many people everywhere

[5:09]And I really learned about what it was like to work in different conditions

[5:12]And what it was like to switch tasks from one thing to another to another

[5:16]And I found a lot of things for my training coming back to me in a way that I relished

[5:20]I learned a lot about family therapy during my training

[5:23]We we actually had family therapy cases and it was in those cases that I learned how powerful it is to actually sit in a room with people

[5:30]You may know very very well but you may not sit within that context

[5:35]So I put together that even with my own family in recent times when I'd go back to a late end of visit

[5:41]We would be on our screens

[5:42]We would sit in a room but we would be on our screens

[5:44]One person would be doing one thing and other person doing another thing

[5:47]There were no moments where we're all just sitting and staring at each other in a circle

[5:50]Because that's not normally a natural thing one does

[5:53]So having to put these characters in situations like that that I had learned about and seen in my own training

[5:59]A really fun and interesting exploration of just what happens to people when they feel more vulnerable and exposed

[6:05]And I had heard from a lot of readers who did move back in with family

[6:09]And things were jarring for them because of that

[6:11]And how that brought up a lot of their own dynamics

[6:14]So I think family just always creates such a rich foundation for any story really

[6:19]Yes, there's no lack of material

[6:21]By the way, I'm on the board of Mount Sinai

[6:23]I've been involved there forever

[6:24]My mom has been on the board and she started all these things for them

[6:29]And the whole renovation of the pavilion

[6:31]Anyway, it's been like a lifelong accompaniment for me

[6:34]So I remember when the medical school started

[6:38]Anyway, that's amazing

[6:40]So yeah, so maybe we'll pass them the halls if you're ever over there again

[6:44]You know, not that I'm there that often I don't even know why I said that

[6:49]It must be hard to see patients virtually and like build up a practice

[6:53]Not that this is even remotely related

[6:55]But anyway, it's just thinking of like not that you can't migrate successfully

[6:58]But to build up something new, it's so hard to do

[7:02]Yes, absolutely, I feel very fortunate that I'm in a field where

[7:05]A lot of it is based on communication and really not equipment

[7:08]You know, like so many other fields in medicine

[7:10]There's a physical exam and there are different kind of things in a room

[7:13]Someone needs and so

[7:14]I do think that's been really hard for providers who have to have that kind of

[7:18]in consideration and so I haven't had to have that

[7:20]But I really do miss seeing people in person

[7:22]I think especially for therapy

[7:24]I love looking at body language

[7:26]I love seeing, you know, someone getting really comfortable with something

[7:29]We're talking about or uncomfortable

[7:31]And reading those cues and being able to connect in that way

[7:33]I think it's very hard to do across the screen

[7:35]So I'm excited for the time hopefully soon where I get an office space

[7:39]You start seeing people in person

[7:40]Sometimes I wonder maybe I should like schedule a zoom with one of my family members

[7:44]Like let's do 30 minutes

[7:47]You know, I'll sit here and give you my undivided attention

[7:50]And you know, because you don't do that for the people closest to you, right?

[7:53]Oh my gosh, I love that

[7:54]That should be posted somewhere because I think we all need that reminder

[7:58]I never even thought of that and you're right

[8:00]We don't make that space

[8:01]I think we just assume that space will come

[8:03]But we do make it for other people

[8:05]Yeah, we make it for total strangers

[8:07]I just made you

[8:09]Like, oh you're so right though, that's such a good point

[8:12]All right, you can post it, you post it

[8:15]I'll quote, but it's your quote

[8:16]So I'll quote you

[8:17]Oh, okay, great

[8:19]So what I really loved about this book is that

[8:22]First of all, you immediately get the reader like hooked on the way you write and talk

[8:26]Right, it's the the voice your voice in writing is approachable

[8:30]Not like super literary and inaccessible

[8:32]And yet it doesn't like poke too much fun

[8:34]It's like a light sense of humor

[8:36]Without it being over the top, right?

[8:37]Like there's so many

[8:38]I feel like sometimes in other

[8:41]This is like a massive generalization

[8:42]But when someone's trying to like depict what's specific about their culture

[8:47]Right, like if I were to make fun of my family's I don't know

[8:51]Passover meal or something

[8:52]Like it becomes like caricatures

[8:54]And there's not as much depth sometimes when I think about it

[8:57]And yet you seem to have paired like the light humor with the depth

[9:02]At the same time without making it like too focused on every single sentence

[9:06]Do you know what I'm saying?

[9:07]So thank you, that means a lot

[9:09]So tell me about how you learn to write this way

[9:12]And if this has been something you've always loved to do

[9:15]You know, where did this come from?

[9:17]blah blah blah

[9:18]I'm very fortunate to have been surrounded by really wonderful people since I've been growing up

[9:22]So my mom has just the most vivacious personality ever

[9:27]And I eavesdropped a lot as a kid in adult

[9:30]But I've just been an eavesdropper forever

[9:32]On the oldest of three just like Suhani is and always felt like

[9:35]I didn't know exactly where I fit in, especially growing up

[9:38]And so I would listen to people and I would observe

[9:41]And that was a lot of times ended up being my mom

[9:43]Even if she wasn't happy about that

[9:44]When she was on the phone and when she was with friends in person

[9:48]And what I found was that when a lot of these women in my community got together

[9:52]They they oscillated from topic to topic with ease

[9:55]So one second they'd be talking about their mothers in law

[9:58]And then the next second they'd be talking

[10:00]about a dish one of them looked up and got a recipe for. And the next second, especially more

[10:04]recently, they talk about something from social media. And then they talk about something that

[10:07]happened in India generations ago. And I just found it so fascinating because I thought it reflected

[10:13]the complexities of people and how they interacted their peers and all the things that come up.

[10:17]But I struggled to find that in books, you know, those, those kind of points where we go from

[10:22]one thing to another to another. And at the beginning of the book, there's a part that actually

[10:26]was directly inspired from from reality where my mom knew it right away. But where being

[10:31]at the mom in the book, she's talking to Natasha, her daughter. And she's kind of paying attention,

[10:36]kind of not. And her friend, Anitha is there as well. And Natasha says, what are you actually

[10:41]looking at? Because their gazes darting from Natasha to their phone. And then they turn on the phone.

[10:45]And it's just this close up of Priyanka Chopra on Instagram. And that happened with my mom.

[10:51]I was trying to talk to her while we were living at home. And she kind of was looking from everywhere.

[10:56]And then I said, what were you actually doing? Her phone was kind of down on the side.

[11:00]She turned around. It was literally a selfie of Priyanka.

[11:04]What are you doing? She said, I can't help but I wanted to look at it. And I thought, you know,

[11:10]I mean, these women are just so funny. And they have so much complexity and they have so many

[11:14]really fun dynamics. And I wanted to show that in a story just what would it be like to be in

[11:18]the world I grew up in for a little bit. Awesome. And tell me more about how you inserted the mental

[11:24]health angle and sort of what your commentary on it is. So what I found is that there can be a lot

[11:31]of stigmas surrounding just the discussion of mental health in general. And a lot of that stigma

[11:36]relates to shame. And one thing I learned in my training is that whatever brings shame tends to also

[11:40]bring silence with it. So people tend to stay very quiet. And they tend to hold in their shame,

[11:44]which we all know is very heavy and it tends to grow with time. And I wanted to show how each

[11:50]member of this family is keeping things from each other. And also maybe even from themselves,

[11:55]maybe there are things that they're in denial of that are hindering them in some way. And their

[11:59]own lives and their own growth and their own ability to connect with people. And so with each

[12:04]character, I kind of plotted through what makes sense for this person to struggle with, what makes

[12:09]sense for this person to need in order to grow and become a better version of themselves and more

[12:13]empathetic version of themselves. And my hope really was that anyone who struggled at all, you know,

[12:18]in whatever form, whether it's a through mental illness or whether it's through just accepting

[12:22]themselves and giving themselves some self-compassional on the way, saw one character and thought,

[12:27]okay, I'm allowed to do this for myself too. I'm allowed to take that time for myself and then

[12:31]take that space for myself. So you've dedicated your career to psychiatry. You've now written

[12:36]this book with all of this woven in. Is there anything aside from the amazing amalgam of the cast

[12:44]characters around which you orbited that like what made you, what do you think it is about psychiatry?

[12:51]What is it about like analyzing mental health? Like, did something happen to a friend of yours?

[12:56]Like was there something where all of a sudden you knew you wanted to do it or were you just in

[12:59]med school and you were like, well, this sounds interesting? You know, a little bit of everything

[13:04]you said. So growing up, I, we lived in a, we lived in a one bedroom apartment as first in a

[13:08]basement apartment, actually a family fun space and then when my parents and I moved to the United States

[13:13]I didn't have any social interactions at first because my dad was actually studying for his

[13:18]medical boards. He had to get re certified from Moon from India and my mom worked at different

[13:22]stores. She worked double shifts and so I always wanted company before I had my siblings and I

[13:28]found that in books and a lot of the books I loved and the babysitters club series comes to mind

[13:33]right away. Especially the Karen books, the first series of Karen books. I love those so much

[13:38]but I loved how they gave me an insight into how other people lived and how they thought and how

[13:43]they dreamt and how they connected. And I felt like I was getting a special access into this

[13:48]world that wasn't mine. And so it was actually that just just being so fascinated by why people

[13:53]are the way they are that they may always read. And then it was that that also eventually drew

[13:58]me to psychiatry. I just didn't know that there were fields where people could then do these

[14:02]things for a living. I just thought it's so interesting because when you think about yourself as a kid

[14:06]you might have certain interests but you may not always know they can lead to a career or some kind

[14:11]of pursuit. They might just seem like this is what you like to do and this is what you don't like

[14:14]to do. So it felt kind of magical to learn growing up then that oh there are people who work in

[14:20]fields that actually do this full time and they explore this in depth and they really they dedicate

[14:24]their lives to it. So I love that and I think that both of those careers really stem from the same

[14:29]curiosity. I share that curiosity with you and I feel the same way about books. I was like very

[14:35]shy and so I felt like and I also was like such an observer of people. You know like always

[14:40]wondering and anyway I mean that sounds creepy right now that I say it like that. I mean I was

[14:47]spying on everybody but I do think there's something you know that psychology psychiatry like

[14:53]when I went to college and I realized psychology was like a thing that I could take all my classes.

[14:57]I was like this is the coolest thing ever. Like I didn't even know like this doesn't even feel like

[15:02]school. Yeah I was going to maybe be a psychologist but then my life went a different direction.

[15:07]But that's like my dream and other job. Yeah I could see you doing that and I imagine

[15:11]especially with posting podcasts or you're asking people questions and digging into things you

[15:16]know so there's a lot of overlap. Yeah I just get the one session. I get the next person about

[15:23]one and then you get 30 minutes I'm going to fix you up and boot you out on your way. Most efficient

[15:28]most efficient kind. It's funny though my daughter and I don't know maybe I shouldn't show

[15:33]this story but they have like this feelings time that's required in their school. She's in second

[15:38]grade and you have to like pick a feeling out of a bag and all the same they call it talk time

[15:43]and my daughter just yesterday was like you know everybody else always complains about talk time

[15:48]but like I really love talk time but I don't want to say it because like everyone's like oh talk time

[15:53]and I'm like no no no see like that's what you have to be able to look out for is the things

[15:57]that everybody else doesn't like and you inherently love because that means like you have it

[16:00]something that draws you to that you're gonna be great at that like that's what I love too.

[16:05]I love talk time that's all I do all day. That's amazing and also yeah just you know

[16:10]out to that hearing that also as a kid I think goes such a long way you know and when someone tells

[16:14]you hey it's it what you love is telling you something about yourself and it's worth putting that

[16:17]time into is such a great thing and also talk time sounds great I wish I had that

[16:22]mentry school yes that's really nice to hear that that's what's happening in schools yes talk

[16:26]time versus history yeah I'll take talk time. Yes you're so good any day any day biology I don't know

[16:34]so are you working on any other books now? I am so I'm working on my third book and it is about

[16:40]a woman who is a founder of a startup and she's also a new mom and so it's it's really about how

[16:46]she actually navigates both areas and because of her position as this female founder with the company

[16:51]that's doing really really well in New York City she's gotten a little bit of Instagram fame

[16:55]and so she turns into this type of mom influencer unintentionally actually and so the book

[17:02]really follows how the world treats the women who go after everything they want. That's kind of

[17:06]this in the book out of what do we do the women who really go after everything they want. Very

[17:11]interesting huh I found that you know the more I post on Instagram like it makes people like

[17:19]you know how people usually are very guarded when you meet them and right you know they're just like

[17:24]it takes a while like I feel like the main thing that Instagram has done at least for me

[17:28]and not that I'm you know a famous mom influencer by any stretch but it just like cuts all that out

[17:33]and immediately creates this place of warmth which is so great like we get to just skip it all

[17:38]and there's like this trust so anyway that's my no totally I also think the things

[17:43]you post about and then with the perspective of moms you know not having time to do certain things

[17:47]and all of that that that's really relatable and I don't think we see enough of that so I do

[17:52]I do think that that resonates because it's not it's not this picture perfect thing where nothing's

[17:57]ever wrong and we're not dealing with nuances and in different complexities of daily life so I think

[18:01]that you're right that that does create a lot of warmth and I'm sure people feel like they know

[18:04]you before they even first I mean they really do I mean I don't know them but anyway for your

[18:09]character can infuse some of that because there are a lot of benefits I think but there are there

[18:13]are a big I'm a big fan of finding the benefits of Instagram one thing I do in therapy sessions

[18:18]actually is if somebody struggling with social media we do an inventory of their feed oh that's interesting

[18:23]oh my gosh I have to put up through their feed and then just tell me how they're feeling after

[18:27]a minute of scrolling and if they're engaged in the scrolling if it's mindless if it's inspiring

[18:31]if it's training I have a list and then it depending on what comes up on the list we then actually

[18:36]mute and unfollow and then add accounts to curate the feed so it feels like a more enjoyable experience

[18:42]I was thinking you are analyzing their feed and like what it says about them you do that too

[18:48]sometimes I will if it comes up and they ask me to otherwise otherwise I won't really bring it

[18:52]into the appointment so it just kind of depends but if they're saying that it's a place that where

[18:56]they want to be but they're struggling with how to be there then I'll do the curation piece of it

[19:00]a lot of people have either gone really wanted to stay on especially with the pandemic because

[19:04]that was their way of connecting with others and then some I've also wanted to just really

[19:08]delete the app either for a short periods of time or for longer periods and so just depending on

[19:12]where they're at that might change that's a really interesting niche to like market

[19:16]and by the way seriously I mean it's like a crisis and all parents are like what should we do

[19:22]and especially if teen girls and everything you know if you're if you've become like expert on

[19:28]I don't know I'll help your daughter or whatever people will be like get over here

[19:33]I started doing some new segments on NBC news recently in the last few months and one of them was

[19:38]about the new TikTok mental health guidelines that that actually came out because of the concern

[19:42]with teenage girls so that is so true it's so true and it's it's a lot there's a lot there yeah

[19:48]awesome well that sounds like a great new novel I feel like some of these have movie potential

[19:53]have they've been bites or not yet they're ha which I'm hoping to be able to announce soon they're

[20:00]I've been by it's which I'm very excited about.

[20:02]So I'm very grateful because growing up, you know,

[20:05]as someone who loved Sweet Valley High and babysitters club

[20:08]and always will, always will love those books.

[20:10]It's really fun to see more books out in the world

[20:13]that just reflect a broader range of experiences.

[20:15]So I'm excited to continue seeing that.

[20:17]I feel like you're gonna end up

[20:18]with like a middle grade YA type book at the point.

[20:22]That would be really fun.

[20:23]There are some really great middle grade YA authors

[20:25]out there and I'm lucky to be friends with

[20:27]and I'm very inspired by.

[20:29]But that would be really fun to join that group too

[20:31]because I think that's such a,

[20:32]that's such an interesting time in anyone's life.

[20:34]Anytime I ask anybody about middle school,

[20:36]they have so much to say and I get why.

[20:39]Yeah, I try to explain that to my kids.

[20:41]Like, like, if you could just get through this,

[20:45]you'll be all good.

[20:46]It's all good.

[20:46]It's true.

[20:48]I should have had that as a note on my wall,

[20:49]actually in middle school.

[20:50]If you can get through this,

[20:51]you're gonna get through anything you're gonna be fine.

[20:53]It's true, you're all good.

[20:54]Yeah, maybe I'll start making some notebooks or something.

[20:58]I, do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

[21:02]Sure, so a couple of things.

[21:03]I recommend reading as much as possible.

[21:06]So, and even reading things that you don't enjoy

[21:09]because there's a lot to learn from things that we don't like.

[21:12]I didn't realize that until much later in my life.

[21:15]When we pick things apart and we dissect them,

[21:17]we see what works and what doesn't work,

[21:19]what resonates with us and maybe what doesn't.

[21:22]And the second part, which I think is maybe a little bit more

[21:26]doable now with social media, I hope it is,

[21:28]is to find some sort of writing community

[21:30]because it can be a very solitary pursuit

[21:33]and sometimes the milestones are a little bit easy.

[21:36]And we deserve to give ourselves credit

[21:38]for writing that one sentence with that one page

[21:40]or one chapter or whatever it is.

[21:42]And having that community can go such a long way.

[21:44]So, no November, there's a community

[21:47]for writing a novel in the month,

[21:48]but even online on Instagram and Twitter,

[21:50]there's just so many people out there

[21:52]sharing their writing goals and their progress.

[21:54]And so I would just encourage that to find that space.

[21:57]I've interviewed a few authors who wrote their novel

[21:59]during that month.

[22:01]National.

[22:01]You know, whatever, I don't know, some.

[22:03]No, no, no, I'm, oh, I think I know,

[22:05]I know, I know, that month, yeah, it works.

[22:09]Oh, I meant to ask you about your nonprofit.

[22:11]Tell me about this nonprofit that you are involved in

[22:14]and everything.

[22:15]Oh, sure.

[22:16]So my husband and I co-founded a nonprofit called This Is For Her.

[22:19]We actually started it when I was in residency.

[22:21]We first made a trip during one of my first vacation blocks.

[22:24]My second year of residency, we went to Kampali,

[22:26]Vonda, because when I was in medical school and an intern,

[22:30]I had been in touch with a lot of nonprofits

[22:31]doing a variety of work in the women

[22:33]and girls empowerment space.

[22:35]And I wanted to visit them all in person.

[22:36]And so we organized a trip and T and I went.

[22:39]And it was so interesting because we didn't see this coming.

[22:42]All of the heads of the organizations asked me,

[22:45]do you have a guide that just explains emotions

[22:48]in a basic way and that we can just give to our participants

[22:51]because we don't talk about that openly enough.

[22:54]And we just need a guide that's done by maybe a mental health provider.

[22:56]And so I said, I'm sure there's something

[22:58]and let me get back to my training program

[23:01]and then get back to you.

[23:02]So I went back and there was nothing.

[23:04]I couldn't find anything.

[23:05]And I couldn't believe it that there wasn't a simple,

[23:08]maybe two to four page guide that said,

[23:10]this is what depression looks like.

[23:12]This is what anxiety looks like.

[23:13]This is what general resilience means.

[23:15]And all of those things.

[23:17]And so I created the guide and then we went back the following year.

[23:20]And we met with those organizations again.

[23:22]And in that time, I also learned that in a lot of places around the world,

[23:26]it's really hard to directly talk about mental health and say,

[23:29]hey, we're going to sit in a circle and talk about mental health.

[23:31]And what can make it a little bit less overwhelming

[23:34]is integrating other exercises into it.

[23:36]So I designed a series of art therapy exercises.

[23:39]And when we went back the following year,

[23:41]we revisited all those organizations

[23:43]and we didn't workshops with every single one.

[23:45]And then we left the materials with them.

[23:47]And then we continued to just basically check in with the leaders

[23:49]and do virtual sessions to just make sure that, you know,

[23:52]they're able to continue on with those workshops

[23:54]and keep that conversation going.

[23:55]But our goal is really to just keep partnering with organizations,

[23:58]already doing incredible work and help them

[24:00]add some mental health education into their work.

[24:02]I want you to do a workshop.

[24:04]I'm sorry.

[24:04]This is not even like the career that you're talking about.

[24:07]You're your books.

[24:09]And I'm like, this is what you should do.

[24:10]Like I want you to do workshops because I want you to like talk to my daughters

[24:13]and like their friends or come into the schools

[24:15]and share all of that from someone who's like in it, right?

[24:19]Oh, I would love to.

[24:20]I'd be honored to do that.

[24:21]One of our favorite ones that we do actually is with a group of girls

[24:23]in middle school age.

[24:24]And it's just called dryer mind.

[24:26]And you can just drop a circle on a piece of paper

[24:29]and divide into quadrants and just actually put down everything

[24:33]that's on your mind and then discuss it in the group.

[24:35]And it's a really, really powerful way

[24:37]to just hear what everybody else is carrying to

[24:39]and to make sense of what you might be carrying.

[24:41]I love that.

[24:42]Yeah.

[24:43]OK.

[24:44]Amazing.

[24:45]All right.

[24:45]I'll get here, you melon.

[24:48]I need to have him here for you soon.

[24:52]How can you help me?

[24:53]Sure.

[24:54]I'm kidding.

[24:55]All right.

[24:55]Well, thank you so much.

[24:56]Congratulations on what a happy family.

[24:59]Congratulations on all of your success and all of your endeavors.

[25:02]And I hope to meet you soon.

[25:03]Perhaps you may.

[25:05]Much and congratulations to you and everything.

[25:07]Good luck.

[25:07]Thank you.

[25:10]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time

[25:12]to Read Books.

[25:13]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, ads and be Owens

[25:16]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[25:18]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com

[25:21]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors

[25:24]on Zoom every other week.

[25:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.

[25:27]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.

[25:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions

[25:31]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.