Riley Sager, SURVIVE THE NIGHT: A Novel
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[0:41]Riley Sager is the author of Survive the Night, a novel.
[0:44]Riley is the pseudonym of a former journalist, editor, and graphic designer.
[0:48]Now, a full-time writer.
[0:49]Riley is the author of Final Girls, an international bestseller that has been published in 25 languages.
[0:54]And the instant New York Times bestsellers, the last time I lied, lock every door, and home before dark.
[1:00]His latest book, Survive the Night, is from Dutton Books, a native of Pennsylvania.
[1:04]He law lives in Princeton, New Jersey.
[1:07]Welcome, Riley.
[1:08]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books to discuss Survive the Night, and all of your amazing works.
[1:14]Oh, thank you for having me.
[1:15]I'm thrilled to be here.
[1:16]Oh, my pleasure.
[1:17]I'm like, a little worried.
[1:19]This mind of yours going in these very dark places.
[1:21]See you now.
[1:23]I scare my parents.
[1:24]What are you thinking?
[1:25]I got my dad after reading Final Girls.
[1:28]Just pulled me aside and said, where did you come up with that?
[1:31]And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm your child.
[1:35]So clearly, you guys had something to do with it.
[1:38]So when you come up with these ideas, it's as if you go through this exercise of assuming the worst.
[1:46]It's like the opposite.
[1:48]You trust the reader goes in and trusts characters.
[1:51]You go in and you're like, oh, this guy's so nice or this woman or whatever.
[1:55]And then by the end, you're completely betrayed.
[1:58]Your expectations are not at all met, which is what makes it so exciting and fun.
[2:05]Because you just don't know.
[2:07]So just tell me about how you flip the characters on their heads.
[2:11]Like this introduction of things that are unexpected and how you managed to do that so well.
[2:17]Well, it's always fun to think what our readers expecting in this moment.
[2:24]And then to always try to find the way to completely reverse those expectations.
[2:30]Well, at the same time, I think at this point, I've gotten a bit of a reputation for people knowing like things aren't what they seem on the surface.
[2:38]And now the challenge is to do it in a way that still surprises them, even though they kind of know it's coming.
[2:45]And so that's where I find like now it's like, oh, gosh, am I doing this?
[2:50]Is this good enough? Is this twisting up? Is this surprising enough? And so what really helps is my first beta reader is a dear friend of mine.
[3:00]I know each other since high school and she'll read the book usually in one sitting.
[3:06]And she will text me her real time thoughts like as she's going through the book.
[3:10]And so it's a great gauge to see like, okay, she's thinking this right now and she's dead wrong.
[3:15]And so I think I'm on the right track.
[3:17]And so that's always like a very nerve-wracking day when I know she's reading the manuscript.
[3:22]And then texting me her husband's like, and I just I'm waiting for the day where she will just be like, yeah, I saw it coming.
[3:29]I just have to write everything.
[3:31]Oh, my gosh, that's really funny.
[3:33]What you should try and do experiment because part of even packaging your books with your name and the sort of thriller-y packaging.
[3:42]You know in the back of your head that something is not what it seems.
[3:46]But what if you tried it as like a romp not that you need help obviously you're like massively successful.
[3:51]I'm just saying this would be like a funny exercise if it's package is like a romcom or packaged as something.
[3:57]And then you get like completely knocked off your feet. I wonder if like the marketing is throwing it off a little bit.
[4:04]Yeah, that was I could just imagine like this. No, cutesy, you know, wonderful romcom.
[4:10]Right.
[4:11]And then all of a sudden like two thirds of the way and it's just mass murder.
[4:14]Yes.
[4:15]I think good reads would not be kind to me there.
[4:18]You have like all these like people reading on the beach like sitting straight at me like what?
[4:23]What just happened here?
[4:25]I can't believe it.
[4:27]Well, I would really like get them off the scent of a twist, I guess, but anyway.
[4:32]How did you okay?
[4:34]Well for this book in particular, what made you place it like on this call started in a college campus and the characters that were involved in this and the drive and the, you know,
[4:44]taking the thing.
[4:45]What did you call it?
[4:46]It was like teeth on the wall where somebody pulls down the name.
[4:50]Which I loved that imagery that was awesome.
[4:52]How did you decide to base it there?
[4:54]Why this like formulation?
[4:56]How did you come to it?
[4:58]Well, what survived the night.
[4:59]It was it was a complete knee jerk reaction to my previous book, Home Before Dark, which was this like it was two books and one, 12 by a father and a daughter, 25 years apart.
[5:10]And it just was so complex and just and I just wanted simplicity.
[5:15]And so the idea that popped into my head was, and I still to this, they don't know what prompted it, but it was so noir little red writing.
[5:23]And I thought, Oh, that sounds like something, but I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
[5:27]And then I just, I liked the idea of just most of the book being two characters in a car and playing, you know, suspicious mind games with each other.
[5:37]And you know, I, I, the really quick pitch I gave to my editor was a girl, a killer, a car.
[5:43]And I just really liked the simplicity of the idea, but the hard part is how do you form a whole novel out of this.
[5:51]And I knew instantly that I could not set it in the present day because.
[5:56]So phones, you know, I get the book would be five pages long.
[6:00]And so I chose to set it in the past, but in the past that a lot of us can still remember and are still familiar with like I was a senior in high school in 1991, which is when the book takes place.
[6:15]And, you know, I remember trying to even do the math to remember how old I was.
[6:21]I was a freshman in high school in 1991 because I graduated in 94 so do with that what you well, maybe I'm wrong.
[6:28]And my car broke down one night.
[6:30]And I had to walk down this country road to like the only farmhouse in sight and knock on the door at 11 p.m.
[6:39]And, you know, they answered and I said, hi, I'm a complete stranger, my car broke down, will you let me in so I can call my parents.
[6:45]And like they did because that's what people did back then because there was so much more trusting.
[6:50]And so there was just it's a bit of a nice.
[6:54]Pointness to 1991 that before all the technology took over made everything so much easier to get out of situations.
[7:02]And also being a high school senior in 1991.
[7:06]I remember that time period so well that I knew research was not necessary.
[7:12]Like I could remember every song that was playing on the radio then every movie that was playing just everything.
[7:19]So made my job a lot easier.
[7:20]I feel like the memories I have of those years are so much clearer than like the nebulousness of like everything in my 20s and 30s.
[7:29]I mean, it all kind of like smushes together, but like high school and college and like those moments they're like very crystal.
[7:37]Yeah, I remember in 1991 better than I do two years ago.
[7:40]Yeah, exactly.
[7:41]Yes.
[7:42]Thank you for saying that better than everything.
[7:44]Yes.
[7:45]Thank you.
[7:46]I have the same thing.
[7:47]Wow.
[7:48]You know, it's funny you say that if like the novel would be like five pages because what does that say about our life?
[7:54]Like all the intricacies of that that like all the richness of experience that would come from all those experiences would just begun.
[8:03]I'm sorry.
[8:04]I'm not speaking coherently.
[8:05]I've had no sleep, but I think you know what I mean that what does that say when there are so many shortcuts that you don't get to even live the real experience let alone read about it.
[8:13]That's all.
[8:14]Yeah, it was very in some of the responses or very surprising readers who were not yet born in 1991 and not quite understanding.
[8:24]Oh, why did she, you know, why did she do this?
[8:27]It's like, well, right boards were a thing on campuses back then and people use them all the time and it was it was campus sanctioned hitchhiking basically.
[8:37]Yeah.
[8:38]And so, of course, the main character Charlie would she just needs to get home.
[8:42]She's going to go to the right board and it just there was no thought to it about thinking all the dangers that might come about from going to that right board.
[8:51]It's what she knew.
[8:52]You had like a really one of your opening.
[8:55]Well, when you said how Charlie kept seeing movies in her mind and have something the medicine she was taking kept the movies in her mind at bay.
[9:05]I kind of loved that visual and why and that's how you describe medication working its magic in that way.
[9:13]Tell me a little bit more about that and the role of medication and sort of what anything can do to like calm the stories that we tell ourselves.
[9:24]Yeah, and that's that's another thing that I mean there's a more modern day thing where there's a lot more things available to sort of tame our mental demons and that's a good thing it really is, but it makes for sometimes a boring narrative.
[9:42]And so you have to as a storyteller come up with ways to get around that and so for Charlie she's been through a lot, you know, and she's had a hard hard life and her defense mechanism are these movies in her mind.
[9:58]I love.
[10:00]of that idea of just everything is so horrible
[10:03]that I just wanna her brain shuts down
[10:06]and it's on like a big screen
[10:08]and because it's a movie, nothing can hurt her.
[10:12]And because it's her defense mechanism,
[10:14]she doesn't like that this medication
[10:16]she's been forced to take,
[10:18]makes those movies go away
[10:19]and she has to sort of face the real world.
[10:22]So she decides to stop
[10:24]and the movies in her mind come back at full force
[10:27]that probably the worst possible moment,
[10:31]but it makes for a very interesting story
[10:34]and it made for a fun writing experience.
[10:38]I loved creating these situations
[10:41]where is this real?
[10:43]Is it a movie in her mind?
[10:44]What is going on?
[10:46]And she doesn't know
[10:48]and the reader sometimes doesn't know
[10:50]and it was a challenge to strike the right balance.
[10:54]I had earlier drafts where there were too many movies
[10:57]in her mind and they went like crazy places
[11:01]and I didn't really pull it back
[11:03]because I knew readers would be like, okay, enough.
[11:09]That's funny.
[11:10]Yeah, hers.
[11:11]I'm like, what are these orange and white pills?
[11:12]I don't know.
[11:13]I get my hands and some of these orange pills or something.
[11:17]But you also, not that I'm in any position to do this,
[11:20]but I taught this random little writing class last night
[11:23]about what I like to read
[11:25]and what I think makes a good book.
[11:26]And one of the things I said was how much I appreciate
[11:29]great opening sentences for every chapter
[11:32]because I think that you have to continually re-engage
[11:35]the reader, right?
[11:36]Each chapter has to start with something
[11:39]just as captivating as the beginning of the book.
[11:42]And so one of your opening sentences is Charlie learned
[11:44]to drive and the car her parents would later die in.
[11:47]And it's like, that is a great sentence opening
[11:51]if I've ever heard one.
[11:53]Because, no, you're immediately like empathetic, nostalgic.
[11:58]You see yourself in that.
[12:00]We've all learned how to drive.
[12:01]Like, anyway, tell me a little bit about that.
[12:04]And if you, if that's a conscious decision
[12:06]on your part when you're writing.
[12:08]It is.
[12:09]I try to always end the chapter with a great line
[12:13]and then start the next chapter with a great line.
[12:16]And I try to make what's in between that great as well,
[12:19]which is sometimes not as easy.
[12:23]But with Charlie, I really wanted to drive home
[12:26]no pun intended.
[12:28]The point that this is why she doesn't drive.
[12:32]And this is why she's kind of in the situation where she's in.
[12:35]And this is her parents died in a car accident
[12:39]that she hasn't driven since.
[12:41]And it just speaks to her specific experience
[12:45]and her specific fears.
[12:47]And there was a lot of attempts to make her
[12:51]as understandable and empathetic as possible
[12:56]because I also knew that a lot of decisions she makes
[13:00]are highly, highly questionable.
[13:02]And so I wanted people to be on her side
[13:06]and understand, okay, I don't know why she's doing this
[13:10]in this particular moment, but I kind of get it.
[13:15]I want to do this, but I get why she's doing this.
[13:18]And so that's where her past comes into play.
[13:22]And like that particular sentence, you pointed out,
[13:25]it really was, I was pleased when I came up with that
[13:28]because that is like, oh, this is an attention gutter
[13:31]of a sentence right here.
[13:33]And explains a lot about the character.
[13:35]Okay, check plus on the sentence.
[13:37]Like you're right.
[13:38]So when did you know you wanted to be a writer?
[13:43]Oh gosh, probably that is such a good question.
[13:47]I always loved reading.
[13:48]Reading was big in my household.
[13:50]My mom still to this day like just always has a book
[13:53]at the ready, like just there would be her easy chair
[13:56]and the TV and there'd be a book.
[13:58]Usually Mary Higgins Clark or some romance novel
[14:01]like right there.
[14:02]And so reading was just something we all did.
[14:04]And I remember distinctly, I think I was 10
[14:09]when I read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
[14:11]And that was the first time that a book, like truly
[14:15]took me out of the world I was in
[14:18]and to a whole different world.
[14:19]It was this magical weird thing where I just
[14:23]had no concept of what was going on around me.
[14:25]I was in the book.
[14:26]And I think maybe that was when I decided gee,
[14:30]this might be fun to do this for a living.
[14:33]Not knowing then that when you're writing a book,
[14:37]there is no magic.
[14:38]It's all hard work and trial and error
[14:41]and revising.
[14:42]But at the time it seemed like this wonderful job
[14:45]to have, to create stories that people would fall into
[14:49]and the world would fade away for a little bit.
[14:51]And I think that's where it started.
[14:52]And then just I think like most writers,
[14:54]you just noodle around like a bad poetry,
[14:57]like a junior high and then maybe some bad short stories
[15:00]in high school.
[15:01]And yeah, I just kept at it writing different things
[15:07]until I got up to like I'm going to write a book
[15:09]that never got published.
[15:10]And I'm going to write another one that never got published.
[15:12]And that eventually, yeah, it just happened.
[15:15]So was it your third book, your third full form book,
[15:19]the book sold?
[15:20]Yes.
[15:21]And it's so yeah, lucky, lucky third try.
[15:24]Yeah.
[15:25]And then is it all you dreamed or when you wrote it?
[15:31]It's sometimes it's weird.
[15:32]Sometimes it's more than I ever dreamed.
[15:36]And then sometimes like, wow, the reality
[15:39]is not what I thought it would be at all.
[15:41]And so it's it's a very strange feeling sometimes where
[15:45]I've been fortunate enough to have some situations
[15:49]that are just truly surreal that I never
[15:52]thought would happen.
[15:53]Like Stephen King tweeting about my book six months before it
[15:57]came out, like who thinks that that would ever happen to them?
[16:01]And then like the next week, I was just sitting at home
[16:04]on my couch, just flipping through entertainment weekly
[16:07]and there was my book in entertainment weekly.
[16:10]And they were talking about how Stephen King tweeted about it.
[16:12]And I just want like I really, part of me just
[16:15]want to like smack myself and be like, wake up, wake up.
[16:18]But no, this legitimately happened.
[16:21]I still can't wrap my head around.
[16:23]Wow.
[16:23]That's so exciting.
[16:25]I wonder if that's like, I wonder if that's how everyone
[16:28]feels when like all this great stuff starts happening.
[16:32]I mean, I always used to think like, oh, famous people
[16:35]and like that they would just be a different type of person.
[16:38]Like of course they would like win an Oscar or whatever.
[16:41]But I'm realizing that's completely not the case at all.
[16:45]Like it's just like everybody else is still just
[16:47]going about their day.
[16:48]And then they have like a massive bestseller
[16:50]or something amazing happens.
[16:52]Or anyway, you're still just on the couch, like hang in.
[16:55]Yeah, like it really is like I'm still,
[16:58]you know, tonight I'm going to have to cook dinner.
[17:01]And tomorrow I'm going to have to fix this broken shelf
[17:04]that I didn't get to for the past week and a half.
[17:07]And so it's just, so it's normal life.
[17:10]And then there's kind of just beyond it
[17:13]is this whole other plane of existence.
[17:16]And it's very strange.
[17:18]It's very surreal.
[17:20]I was literally like I had to go to the Hampton Inn.
[17:23]Don't even ask for this thing for my son.
[17:25]Anyway, I had all my other kids.
[17:26]And I literally am holding like 57 bags,
[17:28]like wrapped around my neck and hanging off my arms.
[17:31]And I'm at the elevator and my daughter, my older daughter.
[17:33]I have for caring like 57 bags too.
[17:36]And I just looked at her.
[17:36]I was like, do you think Reese Witherspoon
[17:38]has to do this?
[17:39]Like there must be a better way.
[17:42]We can't even get the luggage cart to like come up
[17:44]and it's almost a little person, you know?
[17:46]So anyway, anyway, my thoughts on fame, but end of story.
[17:52]And I bet she does.
[17:54]I bet she seems like the person who would be like carrying
[17:57]like the 20 bags around and still being like as chipper
[18:01]as hell about it all and just being like,
[18:02]hey, y'all, I'm current 20 bags.
[18:04]Yeah.
[18:05]Yeah, that's true.
[18:06]Doing a little dance.
[18:07]Whereas I would be like, this is terrible.
[18:08]That's what you get everybody.
[18:12]Oh, well, it becomes funny later.
[18:14]But you know, in the moment,
[18:15]I'm not always saving the best sense of humor about it.
[18:17]So what are you working on now?
[18:19]My next book is finished.
[18:22]And I'm so excited about that because normally
[18:24]this is a time of year when I am scrambling
[18:28]to meet my deadline where as like,
[18:31]this is the room I write in and that's chair I write in
[18:34]over there and it's beautiful.
[18:36]And so now I'm like, oh, this is nice.
[18:39]I'm relaxed.
[18:40]I'm wearing like real clothes and not like sweats
[18:43]and like a Mickey Mouse teacher
[18:44]and like guzzling my third cup of coffee of the day.
[18:47]Just being like, I must write 2,000 words today.
[18:49]So it's so much more relaxing now to have like the book done.
[18:53]And for that, and this is so ironic,
[18:55]like it's because of the pandemic.
[18:57]Like writing got so much easier
[18:59]when I had no other social obligations whatsoever.
[19:03]I was like, I can't leave the house.
[19:05]I might as well just write and the book got done so fast.
[19:09]So yeah, my next one is coming out summer 2022
[19:13]and I'm taking a little bit of a break
[19:16]before I start diving into the writing out the next one.
[19:20]What is the next book called?
[19:21]It is called the House Across the Lake.
[19:24]The House Across the Lake.
[19:25]Oh, wait, I think I knew that.
[19:26]It was already on your website.
[19:27]I'm sorry.
[19:27]I did know that.
[19:28]It's very, I'm very excited.
[19:30]It's very rear window-esque.
[19:32]And yeah, and it's crazy.
[19:35]So like there are bonkers twists in this book that, yeah,
[19:39]I cannot wait for people to read.
[19:42]So not only do I have to worry about everyone
[19:44]I get into a car with now,
[19:46]but now you're destroying lakeside comfort.
[19:49]Lake houses will be ruined for everyone.
[19:51]Yeah.
[19:52]Yeah, the whole market.
[19:53]No more Airbnb is rented out and, you know, that's it.
[19:56]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[20:00]to just keep at it, you know?
[20:02]It's really, really hard.
[20:05]It's such a tough business to break into
[20:08]and it's even tougher once you've broken into it
[20:10]to like really succeed.
[20:12]And then when you succeed, it's tough to maintain it.
[20:16]So I always use the example, like, I love my agent.
[20:21]We are like the perfect fit.
[20:23]She's amazing.
[20:24]She was, I was rejected 110 times
[20:28]before she accepted me as a client.
[20:32]And so that's crazy.
[20:33]That is some tenacity right there.
[20:36]But it's not easy.
[20:39]And so you just have to stick with it
[20:41]and believe in yourself and keep writing.
[20:45]Like I think a lot of authors have like that one or two
[20:49]or three or more unpublished manuscripts
[20:52]and a drawer somewhere that it took them a while
[20:55]to find their voice and the right way to tell the story.
[20:59]And so it is a lot of, it's a lot of stuff
[21:02]that you think is wasted time,
[21:04]but it ends up being valuable
[21:06]because you're learning for all of it.
[21:08]Awesome. Amazing.
[21:11]Well, Riley, thank you so much.
[21:12]This was fun.
[21:13]Thanks for chatting today.
[21:14]And now I'm very excited for your next book.
[21:17]Come be on next summer.
[21:17]Can't wait.
[21:18]Excellent. Thank you very much.
[21:19]I had a blast.
[21:20]Okay. All right, take care.
[21:22]Bye. Bye.
[21:25]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[21:27]Don't have time to read books.
[21:28]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[21:30]at Zebioans and at Moms.
[21:32]Don't have time to read books.
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[21:40]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[21:41]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[21:44]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:46]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.