Chloe Shaw, WHAT IS A DOG?: A Memoir
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[0:40]Chloe Shaw is the author of What is a Dog?
[0:43]A memoir.
[0:44]Chloe lives in Connecticut with her husband, two kids, and two dogs.
[0:47]What is a dog is her literary debut.
[0:49]Welcome, Chloe.
[0:50]Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss What is a Dog?
[0:55]Thank you.
[0:56]I was crying in the first chapter of this book, which is when I know I love a book.
[1:02]It's so good.
[1:03]You're such a good writer.
[1:05]It's so amazing and emotional and beautiful.
[1:09]So anyway, bravo to you.
[1:11]Thank you.
[1:12]What did you tell listeners a little about what your book is about?
[1:15]And what inspired you to write this memoir?
[1:17]So the book is about the six dogs that I've been lucky enough to have in my life
[1:23]two of which I still have to whom I still have.
[1:26]And it really was inspired by an essay I wrote about Booker, who's on the cover of the book,
[1:33]the dog that my husband had when we met.
[1:36]And he was kind of the dog that, you know, I had a beloved dog in my childhood who carried me
[1:44]through my whole, really from like five years old through up to college, like almost the
[1:49]day I left for college.
[1:50]She died.
[1:51]And I'm an only child.
[1:53]And I lived in a loving but quiet household.
[1:56]You know, there wasn't a lot of shared emotions.
[1:59]And I learned to kind of lean on Agatha, my Scotty to kind of express myself and be in my room with
[2:07]her and spend time under Arciano with her and dinner parties when I didn't, you know,
[2:12]I was a little shy, a little antisocial at times, but also could perform when I needed to.
[2:18]So there was a lot of back and forth with that.
[2:21]And I felt like honestly, she really helped me work some of that out, but Booker.
[2:28]So when I met him, he was six years old.
[2:31]And I just became his immediate dog mom and as an adult.
[2:36]And I wasn't, you know, I wouldn't say, I think Agatha of more as my sibling.
[2:41]And, you know, she was like my sister, my friend.
[2:46]I really felt like Booker's mom when I came into Matt and Booker's life.
[2:51]And I had to take responsibility.
[2:54]I mean, things like going to the vet.
[2:56]And, you know, he was, he had a surgery, he had several surgeries.
[3:01]And then he was starting to fail, you know.
[3:04]And I really had to show up in a way that I never had.
[3:07]Even when my beloved grandfather died, you know, I still regret that I wasn't able to show up more for him
[3:15]for that experience.
[3:17]It was just too much.
[3:18]I hadn't really learned how to face that kind of grief.
[3:22]And Booker really taught me that I have to say.
[3:25]I just felt like, you know, I mean, Matt and I dug for a week.
[3:30]We dug a huge hole in our backyard for a week knowing we were going to say goodbye to him at the end of all that.
[3:36]And, you know, I just let myself go through all of the feelings instead of avoid them.
[3:43]So he really, you know, took me a couple of years to write about him.
[3:48]But I wrote an essay that was published.
[3:51]I'd never planned on writing a memoir.
[3:53]That was not my idea.
[3:54]An editor found the essay and asked me to.
[3:57]And I, of course, said immediately yes.
[3:59]And then I thought, oh my gosh, what did I just say?
[4:01]Yeah.
[4:02]But it was even writing the book.
[4:05]I mean, for, you know, it took a couple of years.
[4:07]But it was like just the most therapeutic thing.
[4:10]And it also allowed me to think of all the dogs in my life in this way that I, you know, I answer for more files.
[4:18]I do all the things we all do with our dogs.
[4:20]But it really actually allowed me the time and space to think about what they really have meant to me.
[4:26]And why are we so attached to them.
[4:29]And why is this, you know, I mean, so many people have dogs, especially I know in the pandemic.
[4:35]I know a lot have come home with people, which is great.
[4:38]But it really allowed me the space to think about that on almost a more philosophical level.
[4:43]I think that's what was so.
[4:45]One of the things as my dog like shakes the middle.
[4:49]That made it so poignant was like that the, the macro like extrapolation of like what it all means.
[4:56]Right.
[4:57]It's like what does it mean?
[4:59]Like what do, what do dogs know?
[5:01]What do we know?
[5:02]Are we, and just the sort of souls sort of circulating all of that.
[5:08]It just was beautiful.
[5:09]It's like, I mean, I'm pretty, you know, anyway, tell me about the title for two seconds.
[5:14]What is the dog?
[5:15]Did you have other titles?
[5:16]Why did you pick this title?
[5:18]I know it's discussed, but I'm just curious.
[5:21]Yeah, sure.
[5:22]I will say just I have to say this.
[5:25]I don't have time to have kids as my favorite title.
[5:28]Thank you.
[5:29]Take the best ever.
[5:30]Thank you.
[5:31]That's the mom of two young kids.
[5:33]So my, it came out of the essay that I wrote.
[5:36]I just, I kept asking, there was kind of a repetitive meditation almost.
[5:42]You know, what is a dog?
[5:44]Like, you know, at one point, you know, I grew up.
[5:47]So when I was born, my parents had a dog, she was old.
[5:50]And she was their first baby.
[5:52]She was an Afghan hound.
[5:54]And I just, I never knew life without dogs.
[5:59]You know, she and I, I don't know that I really bonded with her.
[6:01]She died when I was about four or five.
[6:04]And I don't think she was thrilled with my arrival.
[6:08]But she was, she was kind of me.
[6:09]She wasn't, you know, she was an aggressive in any way.
[6:12]So I think that's when I had you had like one picture or something of you guys together, right?
[6:16]And that was it.
[6:17]That's right.
[6:19]And, you know, but she was a big, I mean, she was,
[6:23]a big hands were big.
[6:24]So it was a big presence in our house.
[6:26]We had an apartment in Brooklyn at the time.
[6:28]Well, it was born in Miami.
[6:29]So it was first there.
[6:30]I don't remember Miami.
[6:32]I moved when I was 18 months old to Brooklyn with my parents and easy.
[6:36]The Afghan hound.
[6:37]And she, she when she died, you know, when I was thinking about that experience,
[6:42]I do remember her.
[6:43]I just kept asking like, I guess I just started.
[6:46]Well, okay.
[6:47]I should back up a little bit.
[6:48]So my editor was really helpful in saying,
[6:51]I want you to think about this book as a meditation on dogs.
[6:56]And that was just I kept coming back to that line.
[6:59]And when I started to think about her and my experience with her,
[7:03]it suddenly occurred to me like,
[7:05]it's so interesting.
[7:07]You know, kids who don't grow up with certain that you grow up the way you grow up.
[7:11]So I grew up with dogs.
[7:12]Some people don't.
[7:14]But at some point I must have been like,
[7:16]what is this thing that doesn't look like us?
[7:20]And so I, it just, it was really just a line that came out of the essay.
[7:25]When I imagined my first, the first time I thought,
[7:28]what is a dog?
[7:29]Or like, you know, what is this?
[7:32]Sound of it.
[7:33]And tell me about your relationship,
[7:35]because I know you mentioned in the acknowledgements to John Irving,
[7:38]who's like, I'm like the biggest fan of ever.
[7:40]What is he just like a neighborhood friend of yours and what?
[7:43]No.
[7:44]No.
[7:45]So I was very lucky enough to my first job out of college
[7:49]from 97 to 99.
[7:51]I was his assistant.
[7:52]And I worked with him and his wife.
[7:55]And I lived in Vermont nearby,
[7:57]but I worked out of their house.
[7:59]And I would take care of their house and their dog Dickens.
[8:02]Yep.
[8:03]Whenever they left, you know, the country to travel or whatever.
[8:07]So it was my special.
[8:08]I know.
[8:09]It was a very special experience.
[8:11]Wow.
[8:12]And he taught me.
[8:13]So I mean, truly,
[8:15]he's the one.
[8:17]I mean, I've had such wonderful mentors,
[8:19]Jim Shepard and college was certainly the,
[8:22]I mean, he's actually,
[8:24]he shepherded me.
[8:26]Good job.
[8:27]But in terms of my writing,
[8:30]but John really taught me just watching him
[8:34]and observing him and, you know,
[8:36]working with him every day,
[8:38]the kind of athleticism of writing,
[8:41]you know,
[8:42]like the,
[8:43]it's not.
[8:44]I don't know.
[8:45]I took it very preciously for a while as a lot of us do.
[8:48]And I would be in Brooklyn,
[8:49]coffee shops with my computer,
[8:51]like everyone else just kind of trying to write.
[8:54]And, you know,
[8:55]stuff happened.
[8:56]I mean, I feel like it was all practice for sure.
[8:59]But John,
[9:00]he really,
[9:01]it was kind of eye opening,
[9:03]because I was also an athlete as a younger person.
[9:06]I'm still athletic,
[9:07]but I was a squash player and a softball player.
[9:11]And so I knew about practice,
[9:13]and I knew about,
[9:14]you know,
[9:15]honing your skills and all of that,
[9:17]but in putting the time in.
[9:19]But John had such a diligent schedule,
[9:23]you know,
[9:24]he would get up at,
[9:25]you know,
[9:26]early in the morning,
[9:27]he'd already be at the type,
[9:29]at that time he used a typewriter.
[9:32]And what is hilarious is,
[9:34]I was so nervous that part of my interview
[9:37]would be to see how I type,
[9:39]because I type with two fingers.
[9:40]I never learned how to type properly.
[9:44]And so does he.
[9:45]He types of two fingers.
[9:47]Oh, my gosh.
[9:49]He had thinking now he uses a computer,
[9:51]but he used a typewriter,
[9:52]this like amazing typewriter,
[9:54]and he would just click it out.
[9:56]And I would transcribe all of that into the computer.
[10:00]Sarah's. Oh my gosh. Yes. What book was he working on them? A widow for one year. Oh my god,
[10:05]that was so good. I think I was one of my favorites. I don't prepare for own meaning, but anyway.
[10:11]Yeah. I love to. I love to. I love to wood over one year. I remember when that came out.
[10:17]Yeah. Yeah. So that's what he was working on. But his, his taking writing, not as a precious thing,
[10:25]and just like, and kind of a job. Actually, I heard. So I, I listened to a lot of comedian podcast these
[10:31]days. I really relate to, I don't know. It's, I think it's the, the both, well, the humor, but the
[10:37]darkness too. And it all, yep. Anyway, Mike for Bigly is one of my favorites. And he said the other day,
[10:44]something like treat it, like it's a job until it is. Yeah. I loved that so much because I think that's
[10:51]John, I don't know. I just feel like that's, it is a job. I mean, you treat it like a job. And you
[10:59]just show up. It's not, you know, you can definitely have moments of inspiration. It's not like that
[11:04]doesn't exist. But it helped to take, it helped me to see that when you take the kind of magic
[11:12]dream out of it in a way. Yeah. And you just keep showing up every day. I mean, some days are
[11:18]going to be terrible. Some days are going to be great. But you just keep showing up. Wow. What
[11:23]a way to sort of enter the literary world. So what did you do after that? Then I went to work for
[11:28]Vogue magazine for two years, which was a really good experience. It definitely was not like a great
[11:35]fit for me where I was. It, it was meaning that I was in the features department, you know, working on
[11:42]cultural pieces and, you know, books and, you know, theater and dance and movies. And that was,
[11:50]it was really fun for two years. I just knew it wasn't a long-term situation. Did you dress for the
[11:56]part? I mean, I not, I tried as best as I could. And it was not, and I failed.
[12:06]I interned at Vanity Fair one summer. And I just don't dress very. I mean, I am just not that
[12:13]I don't know. I did my best too. I think I did my best in those two years. And then it was,
[12:19]yeah, it was fun to walk over to the fashion site. You've spent the offices in two sections.
[12:25]And so the features department someone said and the fashion is on the other side,
[12:28]at least it was back in the day. And it was always fun to go back there. And you might run into
[12:33]like Serena Williams trying on some gown. And you're like, oh my gosh. Well, I mean, it was amazing.
[12:39]But I was also like, oh gosh. I just want to be in my jeans right now. Okay. Yeah. I enjoy
[12:49]dressing up sometimes, but it's not in natural habitat. Yeah. I get it. And then what? Great experience.
[12:56]Then I got my MFA at Bennington. I'm in fiction writing. And that's a low residency program.
[13:04]So it's you don't have, it's not. You're not on campus full time. So you have to be there for two
[13:09]10 day sessions once in June and once in January for two years. So the first year I actually lived
[13:15]here in Connecticut. And then the second year I moved to LA for a year just because my friends
[13:21]were moving to LA and I could be anywhere. And I just thought I'd never do something like that.
[13:25]And I lasted 364 days. As we were, as my uncle was driving me out of town, I was like, wow,
[13:34]I didn't last a full year. And it was such a fun year. But it's, I am just such an east coaster.
[13:41]I don't know. It just was not my thing. Which part of LA to do live in?
[13:46]North Hollywood. Oh, okay. Yeah. I lived in. I did, I have similar things that I grew up in New York.
[13:53]I spent a summer at Bennington doing fiction writing program when I was 16.
[13:58]Oh, sick. And yeah. And then fiction and photography.
[14:02]And then after college, I lived in LA for two years. So I made it two years.
[14:07]Wow, you made it two years. I made it two years. Then I was like, I missed my home. But now I spend a
[14:12]lot of time there. And I like going back back and forth. But like, I always feel like this is home.
[14:18]And like, that's vacation land. And I love vacation land. But then I need to like get a dose of home.
[14:24]It's so, that's exactly the way I felt. I felt like the phrase that keeps coming to mind is like,
[14:28]I didn't want to put my roots down there. My roots were back here. And honestly, it's even whether
[14:34]related. I, I would wake up, I mean, of all things, I'd wake up and see the sun and be like,
[14:41]oh my god, it's another sunny day. Like, I don't, I didn't know what time of year it was. I didn't
[14:49]know. I mean, they have sort of seasons, like, but it just, I really longed for that cycle
[14:58]that I've, I've known my whole life. So yeah, I came back.
[15:03]And then when did you, I'm trying to get to your book through the, through the life story,
[15:09]up till the book. So what happened, then you came back, you did your MFA. I didn't even know
[15:15]you could get an MFA in 20 days a year. That's pretty awesome. And then two years though,
[15:19]I was working the whole time, but you can be away from the actual campus. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
[15:25]And then what, then I came back to Brooklyn and I ended up getting a job at a law firm called
[15:31]Scadden Nars. A word processor, which it was really aside from John Irving being his assistant
[15:40]and being in that house with them and being in their family. I really, along with that,
[15:46]it was the work community was so great that my, all my fellow. So we worked for all the lawyers,
[15:54]obviously, and just honestly, editing their documents. They would just hand us documents,
[16:00]and format them. You know, I had to learn all this stuff. Still typing with two fingers,
[16:05]which I tried to hide, which I guess I did for a lot of years. But all of my coworkers were aspiring
[16:13]writers, musicians, artists, actors, you know, it just was so, it was such a wonderful community of
[16:21]people to be around. I did have to learn. So when I started, I, you have to start with at least one
[16:28]graveyard shift. So I had to work from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., which I'd never done in my life.
[16:36]That took getting used to. But, you know, it allowed me time to write. I mean, basically, I just
[16:42]committed at that point to trying to get some writing them. You know, the job paid well, and it
[16:47]was flexible. And then I ended up actually going full time there. So I just worked during the daytime.
[16:53]And that's when I met Matt and Booker, who I, you know, as you read, I guess I had just come out of
[17:00]a bad breakup and did not have any interest in meeting this guy. But my beloved friend from college
[17:08]was like, now you need to meet this guy. She kept, she just wouldn't let up. And then she finally said,
[17:16]I don't think I told you he had a dog. He has a dog. And I said, I meet the dog. You know, and so we went
[17:25]on a walk together. The three of us actually, the four, she has a dog. She had a dog at that time,
[17:30]JJ too. And it was like instantaneous. And we went to college together. We just didn't know
[17:37]each other. I was a freshman and he was a senior. And once we kind of got talking, I realized we
[17:42]had some friends in common. But I didn't know him in college. So I was in Booker. You know, so
[17:49]that's why also to come back to what you asked me initially, like, about this book. I mean,
[17:55]Booker also is why we was why I agreed to even meet my husband. So it was pretty special. And he
[18:04]really was one of those dog of dogs. Yeah. Well, your description of, you know, is this dog's
[18:12]quality of life worth living? How do I know? Like when does he, when does the dog tell you,
[18:18]you know, and you're lying about how, you know, animals just know or something like,
[18:23]but how do you know as the human when you're responsible for that? And the other dog like coming to
[18:28]say, oh my gosh, I mean, I actually, my husband's filming a movie right now. And I was like on the
[18:33]set for one day. And I was chatting with one of the people on the crew. And of course, as I do,
[18:38]I'm like, oh, what do you know anybody reading you think when you're reading? And she was,
[18:42]she's like, oh, I'm too busy to read, you know, with all these projects. And I was like, yeah,
[18:45]well, actually, my podcast is mom's don't have to read books. And she's like, oh, well, I'm a dog
[18:49]mom. I'm not a real mom. And I was like, oh, I have the best book for you. You have to read
[18:54]what is the dog. I had just started it. And she's like, oh, okay. And I was like, where do you
[18:58]usually get your books? And she's like, well, usually I just get him off this app at the library,
[19:02]you know, and then it like downloads. I don't even know. Anyway, I was like, I'm just gonna
[19:06]like send you a copy. So I like to get my phone. I was like, just put your address here on Amazon.
[19:11]I'm just gonna, I shouldn't even say Amazon, but I did do it because it was really fast. And I
[19:14]was like, anyway, I'm sorry, I will repent. But anyway, I had her enter her address. And
[19:18]anyway, I sent her a book and I got there yesterday. So thank you. But I know she'll love it.
[19:25]Because anybody who loves dogs will love this book. It's like, it can't help but tug at your
[19:29]heartstrings and raise really important questions. My brother's dog is like on it's on his last
[19:34]legs poor Raleigh. And I mean, it's just, it's just such an important reflection on such an
[19:41]emotional important time of life that that doesn't get elevated to the mainstream conversation
[19:45]that often. Well, and yeah, I guess that's what I, you know, for so long, I just, you know,
[19:52]avoided that kind of feeling, you know, even with Agatha when she died when I was 18. And my mom took her
[20:00]And I said goodbye to her, but I just, I think we all knew she was not coming back,
[20:05]but she, she took her off and I, you know, I even reflecting on what that day was like for my mom,
[20:11]you know, just to go by herself. I mean, having now gone through
[20:16]Booker and I actually, so when I met Matt, I had two cats who I loved and one of them,
[20:22]both of them died within the last five years, but one of them died like right as the pandemic
[20:26]was starting. I just took him by myself to the vet and I knew it was time he was really sick
[20:32]and he was my, he was my first baby. I had him when I was back in Brooklyn. So he was 15,
[20:37]though he lived a nice long life, but I didn't even have time to mourn him. I mean, it was like
[20:43]that was the week my kids came home from school and just never went back. I mean, not never
[20:47]they're back now, but, you know, for a really long time. And, you know, I just, I think I've always
[20:55]felt like, you know, I have friends who've lost children. I have friends who've lost spouses. We all
[21:01]know people in our lives with that heartache. And I would never compare those griefs. They're different,
[21:09]but they also are both very real. And so I also just wanted to reach out to the people who
[21:17]feel that and it almost feels sometimes embarrassing to feel so sad about a pet dying or being sick.
[21:24]My one of my dogs, Otter, has had two leg surgeries in the last eight weeks and I've been
[21:31]a dog, mom, dog nurse for like, oh, so much. And he's had a rough time. He's doing well now, but
[21:38]I've been in tears many nights about it with my husband. And I think because maybe writing the book,
[21:46]I feel like that's valid. It's okay. It is valid. It's like it's very upsetting. And to
[21:53]communicate easily, too, and be like, you're going to be okay. This is going to hurt for a while,
[21:59]but you're going to be okay. We can't communicate in the same way. So you have to adjust.
[22:05]Well, it is 100% shared by so many and that love. I mean, it's, you know, there's some
[22:15]thing like the act itself of taking care of something in gender's love between people, babies,
[22:22]pets, all of it, right? The more you take care of something, the more you love them.
[22:29]Anyway, and anytime that love is threatened to be taken away, that's huge. That's the most painful
[22:34]thing there is. It's like losing love. What's worse than that? Anyway, okay, do you have any advice
[22:41]for aspiring authors? Just don't stop. Don't, you know, I mean, it's pretty simple and then said
[22:47]many times, but also what I said, I mean, I'm 46 years old and I, in high school, when I read
[22:55]Sandra Cisneros' House on Mango Street is when I was like, I want to do this. I don't know how
[23:03]she did this, but I want to do this. And I really haven't stopped. You know, there've been plenty
[23:09]of failures, but I think don't stop. Don't give up, but also what I was saying earlier about
[23:16]John Irving, I think is really important and and not make it just too precious, but show up,
[23:23]you know, whether it's like you have one hour in the morning, or you, you know, you set a time,
[23:28]you almost make it a little bit regimented. That's worked for me and I know it's not for everybody,
[23:33]but it's worked for me to be, you know, now that I have kids, it's a little different, but
[23:39]I would always just get up. I would stumble toward the computer. I would get some coffee,
[23:47]stumble toward the computer and just let myself like that was the first thing before I looked at
[23:52]anything on the internet before I talked to anybody before I did a single thing. I just let my mind
[23:59]work and wake up. My husband has a poet friend who he used to wake himself up at 4 a.m. to write
[24:08]because he said his internal editor wasn't awake yet, which I thought was so wonderful.
[24:14]That used to be. I don't quite do that anymore because of kids and all the other responsibilities,
[24:19]but it was my favorite time to work was like first thing before you even know what's going on
[24:26]in the world. Yeah, it just feels like this pure moment. So I think that those are my two
[24:31]main thing. By the way, have you talked to Jenna Bloom? Do you know her? The author who wrote
[24:35]would draw on the bench? No. Okay. You two have to do an event together or she came, her book came
[24:41]out yesterday and she's amazing. She runs a mighty blaze also, which I'll email you right after this
[24:48]together. Actually, I don't have your email, but if you get to my email through your public
[24:52]sister thing, then, but you two should definitely, and I'm happy to like moderate or something,
[24:55]but there should be a dog love event somewhere between the two of you. So let me know if you
[25:02]wanted to try it together. Okay. You two should talk. Okay. All right. Well, have a great day.
[25:09]Thanks for coming on mom's time to read books. Oh, watch the v. Okay. Take care. Bye bye.
[25:15]Thanks for listening to this episode of mom's. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[25:20]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at mom's. Don't have time to read books. Also sign up for
[25:25]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[25:30]Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the sound editing.
[25:35]And thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.