Pamela Paul, 100 THINGS WE'VE LOST TO THE INTERNET
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[0:41]Pamela Paul is the author of 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet.
[0:44]She's also the editor of the New York Times Book Review and oversees all books coverage at the New York Times,
[0:49]which she joined in 2011 as the children's books editor.
[0:53]She's also the host of the weekly book review podcast for The Times.
[0:57]She is the author and editor of six books.
[0:59]How to raise a reader with Maria Russo.
[1:01]My life with Bob, flawed heroine, keeps book of books, plot ensues,
[1:05]the starter marriage and the future of matrimony,
[1:08]pornified, parenting ink, and by the book,
[1:11]writers on literature and the literary life.
[1:13]Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The New York Times Magazine,
[1:16]The Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Vogue.
[1:18]She is a former contributor to Time and former correspondent for The Economist,
[1:22]and has been a columnist for the style section of The Times,
[1:25]Worth Magazine, and The Economist.
[1:28]Rectangle Time, a picture book for children, was published in February 2021,
[1:32]by Fillamel Penguin Books for Young Readers.
[1:35]Her next book for Adults is 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet,
[1:39]which came out in fall of 2021,
[1:41]in which we just discussed in this episode.
[1:43]So please enjoy.
[1:45]Welcome, Pamela.
[1:46]Thanks so much for coming on mom's time to read books to discuss 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet.
[1:51]It's a pleasure to be back.
[1:53]Thank you for having me.
[1:54]It's sort of ironic that we're on the internet as we're having this conversation.
[1:57]I feel like we should have just, for old times sake,
[1:59]you should have been here in person.
[2:01]I know.
[2:02]I mean, everything I say and do is ironic with this book,
[2:06]like Instagramming about it, like tweeting about it.
[2:09]Like every time I post something about it,
[2:11]I use an exclamation point and an emoticon,
[2:14]but you know, some have cemented the death of the period,
[2:17]which is one of the things we've lost to the Internet.
[2:20]I actually thought about that one probably the most,
[2:22]because I had this conversation recently with my daughter,
[2:24]where I asked her to text something to someone because I was driving.
[2:27]And then she showed it to me quickly.
[2:30]And I was like, no, you forgot the period.
[2:31]And she was like, I don't use periods.
[2:33]And I was like, what, of course you do.
[2:34]And she's like, no, you're not supposed to.
[2:36]And I was like, yes, you are.
[2:37]And then I opened up your book.
[2:38]And I was like, oh.
[2:39]It's really crazy.
[2:41]I mean, everything that we learned in strong and white is not true online.
[2:46]It's still true in what I think of as like book writing and real writing.
[2:50]I mean, I love a good deployed exclamation point in a novel.
[2:55]It can be so effective.
[2:57]But in a tweet or in an email or a Slack to someone,
[3:03]you need at least seven exclamation points.
[3:06]It really is the opposite.
[3:09]It's never used a period of always an exclamation point in online writing.
[3:14]And then in print writing.
[3:16]And what I sometimes think it was real writing,
[3:18]because I'll snobbish that way.
[3:20]It is always used a period and only use an exclamation point sparingly.
[3:25]But to use a period really can come, you can come off like a real jerk.
[3:30]I mean, it is better to say thank you with nothing at all rather than use a period.
[3:35]Or obviously it's best with three exclamation points,
[3:38]but better not to use a period because that's just sarcastic.
[3:43]You know, you're so right.
[3:45]I remember right after I went to business college, I had writing this novel.
[3:49]And I was working with my other friend from business school, Lee Carpenter,
[3:52]who went on to be this like great novelist herself.
[3:55]And I had all these exclamation marks in my manuscript.
[3:59]And I remember I showed this huge comment.
[4:00]She's like, Zivi, you cannot use exclamation marks in fiction like this.
[4:05]And I was like, really?
[4:06]So I have been self-consciously using exclamation marks since like 2004.
[4:11]And every time thinking I'm doing something wrong,
[4:13]but I'm like, I'm just going to sneak one in.
[4:14]I'm just going to sneak in another one.
[4:15]And now you're like sanctioning the whole thing.
[4:17]It's amazing.
[4:18]It's funny.
[4:19]I mean, what I tried to do in this book is like, it's not just like noticing that this new thing has happened.
[4:25]Right?
[4:26]The new thing is the exclamation points.
[4:28]The old thing, the thing that isn't there or any more is the period.
[4:31]And it's weird that we haven't talked about it more.
[4:34]It's true.
[4:35]And I have to say, I was kind of depressed after reading this because I miss all of these things.
[4:40]Like, I long for these days.
[4:43]I have such deep, nostalgic yearnings for like so many of the ones that we see.
[4:49]I dug your like all of this.
[4:50]Oh my gosh.
[4:51]The bookish boy was actually very troublesome to me as the mom of two sons that you don't see guys
[4:56]just like lounging about reading as much as you used to because now they're all playing video games and doing whatever else.
[5:02]It's true.
[5:03]Right.
[5:04]I saw a man in an airplane yesterday reading a David Sedaris novel in a hardcover.
[5:07]And I was like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.
[5:09]I love it.
[5:10]Yeah.
[5:11]Yeah.
[5:12]I mean, I have three children and two of them are boys.
[5:15]And I have to say a lot of their peers don't necessarily read some of them do.
[5:20]Some of them do.
[5:21]But what's kind of terrible is that the culture really does discourage boys from reading.
[5:27]But the point in the book that I make is so many of the things that drew boys to books,
[5:34]the internet does.
[5:35]You know, and the internet is very seductive as we all know.
[5:39]Like, you know, underscoring all of this is that we are all complicit.
[5:43]You know, we are all willing participants in the internet, including me, including me.
[5:48]It's, it's not all negative.
[5:50]And it's more complicated than that.
[5:52]I hope I didn't depress you too much.
[5:54]No, no, no.
[5:55]You know, some of the things are good that they're gone, right?
[5:57]Yes.
[5:58]Yes.
[5:59]No, that is absolutely true.
[6:00]And I didn't mean to say it just like that way.
[6:01]I mean, there are some things.
[6:02]I'm glad I can remember fuels birthdays now.
[6:04]I never used to be able to do that.
[6:06]You know, things like that.
[6:07]School item.
[6:08]Some of these medical forms.
[6:10]Huge lifesaver.
[6:11]I wasted so much time filling those out even just like 10 years ago, by the way.
[6:15]Yes.
[6:16]I mean, it's interesting.
[6:17]We are so focused.
[6:18]I think as a culture and especially in the media and online to constantly look forward.
[6:25]And we're always, and we're still, you know, sort of tearing our hair out of it and wondering,
[6:29]like, what is going on?
[6:30]You know, right now, for example, the headlines are all about Facebook and Instagram and sort of what the company has known and not known and what has been manipulated.
[6:39]And, but again, we're looking at constantly moving forward.
[6:43]And what I wanted to do is say, wait a minute.
[6:45]Let's like, let's just pause for a moment and think about where we were.
[6:49]And part of that exercise, I think, is to make us all stop and think, wait a minute.
[6:56]We actually do have the choice with a lot of this.
[6:59]We do have a choice.
[7:00]It's interesting to me that with the internet, which is really a product, a service and everything that we use on it are products and services.
[7:10]With technology, we're sort of always told to upgrade to adopt to download that app.
[7:16]And then if we don't, you know, we're sort of ignoring the future.
[7:20]We're a lot, I, we're somehow, you know, holding on to the past.
[7:25]And yet those are just marketing messages, right?
[7:28]We get marketing messages about sweaters, about face cream, about toys for our kids and a good, you know, number of times, a good amount of the time.
[7:38]We say to ourselves, oh, that's nonsense.
[7:40]Like, I don't actually need that sweater.
[7:42]That face cream doesn't actually do anything.
[7:43]This toy, my kid is going to hate and it's going to break in five minutes.
[7:46]We listen to those marketing messages and we take it with a grain of salt or skeptical consumers.
[7:51]But strangely, with technology, we're not.
[7:54]It's almost like we kind of have bought into all of those messages.
[7:59]But the truth is, we don't have to do any of these Internety things.
[8:04]If we don't want to, just like we don't have to buy, you know, a new pair of jeans if we don't want to.
[8:09]I mean, I kind of need to because none of my jeans fit, but that's okay.
[8:14]Yes, well, that is the pandemic.
[8:16]I love to hear a section two on benign neglect because I really thought that was my mother's expression.
[8:23]I didn't know it was so widespread as to make it into your book.
[8:27]She was always criticizing my parent, not criticizing.
[8:30]Sorry, mom, if you're listening, but she was always suggesting that I hovered too much and that benign neglect was the way to parent.
[8:37]And I guess you would agree with that.
[8:39]I don't know.
[8:40]Yeah, I agree with a lot of it. I mean, it's interesting to me that, and I have to say, I think that, you know, there are one of the things I love about most about the book is something I had really very little to do with and that is the illustrations, which are the by this amazing illustrator,
[8:53]and you can't choke. See, and I think that this one has like is one of the ones that has this amazing funny illustration and so does another parenting one, which is a parent's undivided attention, which has this like little child like about to fall off a cliff while the mom is taking a selfie and sadly so true.
[9:12]Hopefully no one has died or will, but yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of the ways in which we use the internet and the ways that we allow our children to use the internet is really, you know, and again, like, I'm as guilty as anyone, it's about us, it's about the parents as much as it is about kids.
[9:31]One of the main reasons, for example, that people say, Oh, I finally got my kid a phone is because their child is commuting to school and they say, I want my child to be able to get in touch with me, I want to be able to reach my child.
[9:45]So when you think about that, really, that's about control for the parent and it's really hard, like I'm not touching anyone because I understand it, I get it, but it's about, yeah, it would be really nice to reach your kid anytime.
[10:00]I'm, but if you think back to what it was like before kids all have phones and what did parents do when they wanted to get in touch with their kids during the school day.
[10:11]Well, they either waited for them to get home and try online or they would call the school, but only in an emergency so think about that that was deliberate right that's just the way it was.
[10:22]That's what we were used to maybe like just maybe there's something good in that both for kids and for us as parents it's true yeah and it's hard when you don't when you have the options there it's hard not to use them right yeah it's it's tempting it is tempting I mean look the internet makes life a lot easier and that's why there's no way to write a book about the internet and say like oh it's all horrible I mean certainly think about the parents.
[10:53]And especially during lockdown the internet was a lifesaver it was the way I mean literally it was the way that people got access to health information to news to connecting with their loved ones to being in in touch with people they needed to be in touch with for those who were able you know and lucky enough to work remotely that meant their livelihood so.
[11:12]it it it's really almost impossible to imagine just how terrible the pandemic would have been without the internet, I know I kept the every day I was like holding my breath that the wife I was going to just completely.
[11:25]I was like yeah it's going to be the day and that's it and I'll be disconnected it'll just be kids and us and everything terrifying yeah you know it's so funny is that as the pandemic went on right I think we realized it was a very useful lesson and you know first part one was like oh my god thank goodness we have the internet this is a lifesaver then it was like wow what happens when everything is on the internet what happens when our entire lives.
[11:53]is internet and then that was a really useful lesson and I think especially for parents it became really clear that no matter how much.
[12:03]educators had argued for all kinds of uses of the internet and classrooms reducing the classroom experience reducing education to online only was really.
[12:15]On kids and parents and teachers you know you definitely lost a lot when you don't have a real life teacher coming into a classroom with all of that energy and having her eyes and everyone in the classroom and.
[12:29]being able to bring in kids to circle time who didn't want to be Lord and and knowing what's happening in the background and seeing the way kids are ignoring one another connecting with one another and then for the kids you know like for kids.
[12:43]imagine if you know for nursery schoolers for kindergartners not to have those social connections and then for high schoolers and middle schoolers not to be able to catch someone's eye like how do you start a friendship how do you talk to someone how do you.
[12:57]you know make connections with other kids without.
[13:01]anything any interpersonal reaction any of the bodily facial hand signals like vibes that we get when we're just in the room with someone all of that was gone and I think every parent.
[13:14]noticed the difference and the losses there 100% we've had like so much emotional sit back.
[13:21]yeah primary way out of although I was so interesting because of course now that schools open i've had like back to back weeks of various classes where everybody has to go remote because.
[13:30]someone has COVID in the class or something so anyway this week my son is here and just an hour ago I heard the teacher said and then well, you know like tomorrow we get to be back in school and literally all the kids cheered they were like yay back in school.
[13:42]yeah this would never have happened before every now well if you want to know how to get kids to like school take it away you will see happy they are.
[13:52]could you use something a little more subtle but yes yes yes for sure so why write this book what what made you spend what made you do this, how long are you thinking about it, why turn it into a book the whole story.
[14:06]alright so you know there are a few different things that we're going on one is that when we talk about the internet as I mentioned earlier always the eyes forward eyes on the next thing what's the next upgrade when's the new product what's the new app.
[14:19]how can I adapt what does this mean for my future and I really felt like you know and then maybe we sometimes talk about like wait a minute, how did we get here, how did this thing become so popular, how did we all end up using you know lift or zelly or whatever you know the sort of internet toy is of the moment.
[14:36]but what I think we don't do a lot of the time is think back and see wait a minute what was it like in the before times what what what what did we used to do instead of this like how did we wish people birthdays.
[14:50]How did we like all talk as a group like how did all of our college roommates talk to each other before the internet like how did we all like connect you know it's hard to think like we and all get into group phone calls no we we actually waited for reunions or maybe.
[15:04]we set up like fun weekends where you know a bunch of us could get together but you didn't have a group chat so it was kind of forcing forcing me to think about like well.
[15:14]As you go through your daily life, what are all the ways in which one uses the internet and then what did we do before that kind of scrolling back and pausing and saying remember what that was like but also do we have to does it have to be this way.
[15:27]And then the other part of it, too, is that I thought well not everyone who reads this is going to be as ancient as I am and they're not going to remember all these old timey things and I actually thought it would be really instructive mean two of my kids have read it so far and like it's news to them right.
[15:43]they don't necessarily know this they haven't experienced it they are digital natives i'll give you one example of a technology thing that happened with my kids and this is not an internet thing but I found it really instructive so.
[15:54]Like most people you know when you get a car you have like three sets of keys or something and there's that one key that's like the key of desperation that does not have the remote on it it's just a key right.
[16:05]And so, so we couldn't find that I couldn't find the other keys one day and I took like that key out and I guess I hadn't taken it I went outside with my 16 year old daughter to go into the car get into the car and I opened the door with the key and she was like oh my god, you can open a car with a key.
[16:22]They did not occur to her and like of course that's what we did for years and years and years and years and that's essentially you know a metaphor really for the ways in which internet is become so ingrained in our daily life that we really don't remember what it was like back in the olden times.
[16:41]And then the immediate impetus for this book to was that I wrote a piece for the op ed section of the times it was not bad called let children be bored again and actually my working title was the lost art of boredom because I really missed you know that those moments of boredom I was trying to cultivate them in my life because like most people I have my most productive.
[17:04]ideas thoughts when I'm in the shower, you know it's really annoying because you're like oh, I gotta rinse out my conditioner so I can go and like write this down before I forget it.
[17:12]But there's a reason why we have those creative thoughts in the shower it's because we got nothing else to do you know we're pretty bored with washing we know how to wash our body in our hair.
[17:22]So your mind wanders and does other things and now we don't really allow for those moments of our minds wandering because we have the internet and I grew up.
[17:32]you know sort of constantly languishing in the backseat of the car and if I wasn't getting along with my brothers at that moment and we weren't playing some kind of you know game like car bingo or whatever.
[17:43]I was subjected to my parents horrible music coming from the front and I just start off the window and I and my brain went where it went and it struck me as a parent that now.
[17:54]you know there's no chance of that happening to my kids there's so many podcasts we can listen to and we don't even all have to listen to the same thing right once they have their own devices everyone can be listening or doing their own thing you could be one person.
[18:08]can be playing fortnight another person can be listening to a music podcast the third person can be listening to an audio book like everyone is constantly entertained and I thought.
[18:19]what do we lose what do we lose with all those gains they are gains what is it that we miss out on and so.
[18:27]it's interesting you know how you said earlier and I and I won't dwell in this any further but the book was depressing because when I was thinking about what to write about I was thinking I have all these feelings towards.
[18:37]the internet and to the way in which our lives have changed for the better and for the worst and a lot of it makes me upset and a lot of it makes me angry.
[18:44]But I want to kind of steer away from those emotions and I want to get to maybe a more nuanced slightly bitter sweet place of like hey just let's take a moment let's take a moment and and pause and reflect.
[18:59]and and think about these things for a while and so those were the hundred things I mean I have to say it started off as like 168 but.
[19:07]I swear I did not mean that this was like a depressing read full stop I did not mean for it to come across that way I just meant I was I was longing for some of the olden days with things.
[19:20]and this reminded me but it reminded me in a good way I mean there's like you know that those rose color glasses from when you're younger and everything seemed great with like.
[19:29]you know innocent trips to like I don't know the beach with an outdoor shower and the sun said and you know everything seemed perfect but of course it wasn't so anyway no and so I'm sorry it's that if I.
[19:41]I totally enjoyed the book it was great it's great to like remember and take stock and be honestly I mean the whole book is an exercise mindfulness really right it's saying here's where we are like don't take this for granted like.
[19:55]look at this and analyze it do you like it do you not like it and think about.
[20:00]Don't let it just pass you by.
[20:02]You know, it's funny because I think a lot of it is also really funny.
[20:06]Like the kind of things that we did in the pre-internet era.
[20:08]I just posted on my Instagram notes that I passed in class because I've kept them all.
[20:14]I like I have all the notes I passed.
[20:16]I have them in an accordion file, which is one of those things that most people don't have any more physical files and file cabinets, but I have them and the tabs are marked by greed.
[20:24]And I pulled out some of them and they, you know, amused me to no end, but of course at the time we took it incredibly seriously.
[20:32]Like the whole passing notes thing, you could get caught, your note could be red and enemy could find your note.
[20:39]A teacher could get your note, you could get in trouble for what you wrote notes.
[20:43]And yet we all did it.
[20:44]Like that was the most fun and exciting part of being in class.
[20:48]And it's interesting, you know, now because of course kids are often on a device in class and they can, you know, they can go online.
[20:56]And I guess they can, they can text each other, right? So that's the version of passing notes.
[21:00]But there's something about having these physical objects that I just love.
[21:04]And now when I look back at them, they're pretty hilarious.
[21:07]Well, it's also when you talk about like things you've lost.
[21:10]I don't know about you, but for anybody who I've lost who has passed away.
[21:14]The first thing I do is take an inventory on what I have left that they have written.
[21:19]Do I have a birthday card? Do I have a note? What pictures do I physically have?
[21:24]I don't go like, sometimes later I'll go searching through emails, but it's not the same.
[21:28]Like I hold onto those cards like they're a true gift.
[21:31]And that's something else I feel like, you know, you lose.
[21:34]It's not the same.
[21:35]It's just not the same when you lose that and migrate all to digital.
[21:39]Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm assuming you have baby albums, right?
[21:44]Like did you think it's like maybe books for all your kids?
[21:47]I don't know if everyone does anymore, you know, like, and we certainly don't print out as many photos.
[21:53]I don't know about you. Do you print out photos that you take?
[21:56]I should turn my video back on because I have a whole wall that has photo albums, but I have started paying my son who's 14.
[22:04]He makes me a photo album every month through the photos app and makes it on shutter fly.
[22:09]But if I have, so I have a photo album from literally every month of my life.
[22:14]Well, you've done like an amazing hybrid internet, you know, sort of real photo thing, right?
[22:19]You're doing that's true.
[22:20]No, I'm not I'm not pasting them in anymore. You're right.
[22:23]Yeah. Yeah.
[22:24]I mean, I have all those photo albums.
[22:27]And of course, they were always in like kind of disorder, at least in in my life.
[22:32]You know, half of them would be four by sixes and some would be three by five and some would be glossy and some would be matte and some would be faded and some would be ripped and some would be polarized and like, you know, it's a mess.
[22:42]It's a mess in there.
[22:43]But it is interesting because I do think when you go through this physical objects, like it just brings back a lot, even the disorder, right?
[22:51]You can be like, Oh, yeah. I remember because I pulled out that photo in order to use it for this project. And then I put it back in when I was done.
[22:58]I must have put it in the wrong place. It's like a bunch of things just comes flooding back to you when you have the physical presence of actual 3D objects.
[23:08]I literally have a tote bag in the bottom in the back bottom, like of my closet hidden away.
[23:13]It's like this black tote bag with some magazine that's no longer in business, stuff full of negatives, because I don't know what to do with them.
[23:21]Like, I just don't want to lose them. I don't know where to put them. But what if I need them. I don't know. So yeah, I hear you know and speaking of magazines magazines.
[23:30]There is a thing. It's one of the chapters in my book is on magazines. I mean, yes, they still exist. Some of them, but so many are gone. And they're not the same as they once were. I mean, remember how thick the September magazines used to be.
[23:43]Yeah, exciting. It was like, if you had a long flight to go to the newsstand at the airport and be like, I'm going to treat myself to every single magazine I want and like, I would even have like a heavy stack in your arms.
[23:58]It's true.
[23:59]I still do that for my kids. Sometimes those are good. You know, if there's anything that looks interesting like here.
[24:04]Have a magazine.
[24:06]Take five minutes in case your iPad dies or something. Right. There's something to this national geographic.
[24:12]Also, even within style, I remember when they started doing features inside celebrities homes. And I was like, no way. We get to see inside celebrities house.
[24:20]And now on Instagram every day. It's like, here I am in my living room with from every single person. So right. Right. I mean, who needs, you know, star tracks or whatever, you know, the all of the tablet magazines with all the photos of stars.
[24:34]They're all over the internet. Of course, what's funny is I personally never looked at them on the internet.
[24:41]But I did really like back in the day to go and grab like a bunch of those, you know, I love people magazine. I loved, you know, grabbing a bunch of those gossipy kind of magazines on occasion at the dentist or the doctors and looking through them.
[24:53]But somehow, even though the internet has so much on it somehow. It's like that the glut of information. It's too much. And I never actually sit down and be like, you know what, I'm going to look at some nice photos of owls today or like, let's go on Google Earth and see what it looks like in Norway right now.
[25:09]And never do it. No. Me neither. I mean, I mean, yeah, meet you in Norway. I don't know.
[25:17]Well, so, I mean, this is so fun and obviously like the book just starts so many conversations like you are never going to be boarded a dinner party again the rest of your life.
[25:25]If we ever go back to dinner parties because there's so much to discuss, you know, like everyone has a story on everything. So in a way, it's like a collective conversation that you started, which is awesome.
[25:35]Oh, thank you. Yeah, I thought that, you know, it, it, we all kind of talk on occasion about one or two of these things. They come up like, oh yeah, remember when remember that.
[25:45]And I thought, if you gather them all up in one place and look at the accumulation, the cumulative effect.
[25:51]It's really kind of startling because then it drives home just how much things have changed. So true.
[25:57]Well, okay. So after this project, what's on your, what's on your docket aside from, I'm assuming you're continuing with your own podcast and the your time's book review and all that or maybe not. I don't know.
[26:08]Question mark. Yeah. I mean, I know I have a very, very full time job at the New York Times and also, you know, hosting the weekly book review podcast. I have three full time kids.
[26:18]The last book was a picture book before this. And actually, I'm working on another one of those. So amazing. Yeah, I really do love love books for children. And though my children are not in that picture book reading demographic, although they do enjoy them as an art.
[26:36]I, I've never totally let that that go. I'd love that format. So that's my next thing. Me too. I love children's books.
[26:43]You guys really getting too old for these not yet, but soon. Yeah. You're never too old for children's books. That's true. That's true. So do you have any advice for aspiring authors know you gave some the last time you came on.
[26:55]Oh gosh. I mean, look, I have a dog in this race. My advice is always read read read read read read lots of books read books because I think that's the best way to learn how to write and gosh, it's really hard to deviate from there.
[27:10]Now that I have, you know, my children like to write as well and they ask the same thing, like should I can I take a writing class, this and that and my answer is always really the best thing, the best class, the best thing to do is to read and to write.
[27:25]There was an anecdote that I read recently. Oh gosh. I'm going to forget what it is because one of the things we've lost to the internet is our memories.
[27:34]But there was just this great anecdote. Oh, I think it was Sinclair Lewis who was invited to teach a class or to give a lecture on how to become a writer.
[27:45]And he got back in the day like in the 20s of the 30s and he just got up and he said everybody go home and read and he walked off. And that was the end of the speech.
[27:54]I'm totally paraphrasing this anecdote and someone will surely Google it as we now can do and be like, you know what, you got that wrong.
[28:01]Well, it wasn't Sinclair Lewis wasn't in the 20s and 30s and what he actually said was X, but yeah, that's one of the things the internet has brought us I guess amazing.
[28:10]Well, thank you. Congratulations on pub day. I should have started off by saying so sorry that I'm doing soleniverse. But anyway, congratulations on a hundred things we've lost to the internet and at least one thing we've gained is the ability for us to have this conversation right now. So there you go.
[28:25]There you go. And next time I hope in real life study. Yes, me too. All right. Thank you so much. Take care. Have a great day.
[28:33]Bye.
[28:35]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:43]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.