Melinda Wenner Moyer, HOW TO RAISE KIDS WHO AREN'T ASSHOLES: Science-Based Strategies for Better Parenting — from Tots to Teens
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
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[0:32]And now back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[0:36]Hi, hi. Hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:40]Melinda, Leonard Moyer, is the author of How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes.
[0:45]Science-based Strategies for Better Parenting from Tots to Teens.
[0:49]This was our conversation at The Strand, The Night of My Launch of Sivi Books.
[0:56]So I was high on the success of that launch day.
[0:59]And I couldn't wait to talk to her and Christina Hillsberg about their amazing books.
[1:05]Melinda is an award-winning contributing editor at Scientific American,
[1:10]widely read, parenting columnist at Slate and a contributor to The New York Times's
[1:13]new standalone parenting section.
[1:15]How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes is her first book.
[1:18]I'm Sivi for those of you watching, and why don't you guys introduce yourselves?
[1:22]I know.
[1:23]I'm Melinda.
[1:24]Hello.
[1:25]I'm in the Hudson Valley.
[1:26]So I'm like, what, 60 miles north of Sivi right now?
[1:29]And one of my children is asleep, and one of them is awake.
[1:31]And hopefully they won't interrupt.
[1:35]Hi, I'm Christina Hillsberg.
[1:37]I'm out in Seattle.
[1:38]So I've got a little bit more daylight left here and the kids are playing outside
[1:43]that they are with my husband.
[1:44]So I'm hoping that one makes an escape, but you know, to run in.
[1:48]You never know.
[1:48]Could keep things interesting.
[1:50]All right, so I'm putting my money on you as the most coherent of the three of us.
[1:53]since it's earlier and, you know, so pressure.
[1:58]So pressure, yeah, exactly.
[2:00]I was actually thinking as I was listening to all of your back ends being read out loud.
[2:04]Like, it takes so much to be able to get the successful parent that listen to like the
[2:10]crazy bias that you guys have and how all of the focus is like, we just have to try
[2:16]to raise nice normal kids.
[2:18]You know what I mean?
[2:19]Like, it's like, Christina, you can like do everything in the CIA and do whatever else
[2:26]the CIA actually does.
[2:28]And yet it takes all of that brain power to like get our children into the car on time.
[2:35]Crazy guys.
[2:36]Someone just asked me in a podcast the other day, like what's the hardest thing you've
[2:39]ever done?
[2:40]And I said parenting.
[2:41]I mean, it's so it's so humbling, especially like when you have one kid when the first
[2:46]is like just a natural born rule follower and then you're like feeling really awesome
[2:49]like you're this amazing parent and then you have the next one who's like, you know,
[2:53]we'll say spirited.
[2:54]I think that's like the term that we all use.
[2:56]And then you're like, oh, I'm actually not awesome.
[3:00]And I had an easier kid.
[3:02]It's not like, you know, yeah, same breakdown with my kids.
[3:06]Exactly the same.
[3:07]Yeah.
[3:08]I did not start with an easy kid.
[3:10]So Sam, but I'm just better off, you know?
[3:12]It's good because you get the hard done.
[3:14]You know?
[3:15]So it's not fair.
[3:16]Oh, wow.
[3:18]Yeah.
[3:19]No.
[3:20]Yeah.
[3:21]So then my third kid came around and I'm like, this is a piece of cake.
[3:23]Oh, sure.
[3:24]Yeah.
[3:25]Anything after that.
[3:26]Oh, my gosh.
[3:27]So the question though, of course, which I think courses do both of your books and my mind
[3:32]all the time and basically every parent's mind is like, how do we not mess this up?
[3:36]How do we not?
[3:37]How do we just avoid messing up our kids?
[3:40]Right.
[3:41]And that's basically and that's like basically the channel of your book and that's what
[3:44]I think all the time knowing that like our kids are born differently, like just what
[3:49]you were saying Christina, like some, I think the more kids I've had, the more I realized
[3:54]that it's like first, do no harm.
[3:56]Right.
[3:57]If I just don't mess them up, they're just going to end up growing up into whoever they
[4:01]were born with their different personalities and all of that.
[4:04]So what have you guys taken away and Linda, I know you wrote a whole book about this.
[4:08]So you must have strong feelings.
[4:11]And I'm actually very curious as to why this was so like on your mind that you wanted
[4:17]to write a whole book about it to begin with.
[4:20]Yeah.
[4:21]Well, it was because I kind of had like a crisis myself as a parent where I, a lot of bad
[4:27]stuff I felt like was happening in the world a couple of years ago, like people were just
[4:30]behaving badly all over the place.
[4:32]The Me Too movement had just come to light.
[4:35]And I was starting to really worry about what my kids were learning from all of this.
[4:41]What were they hearing?
[4:42]What were they, you know, what were they seeing?
[4:44]What were their friends saying?
[4:46]And you know, who were they going to become?
[4:48]And I was seeing like this behavior that I thought was atrocious in front of me.
[4:54]I really started to focus on, okay, you know what, like the most important thing to me
[4:57]as a parent is that my kids grew up to be just good human beings.
[5:02]And I started talking with other parents and I realized like there was this feeling among
[5:06]a lot of parents, I think that like, you know, of course, we all still worry about like
[5:11]our kids going to get into college and, you know, are they going to be happy and all
[5:14]these things that everybody always thinks about as a parent.
[5:17]But I felt like there was suddenly this like fear and this awareness and this like focus
[5:21]on, you know, what can we do to just raise like good people?
[5:26]And if we all do this, then we can like raise a generation of really good people.
[5:31]And that's when I started thinking about writing the book because I realized this could,
[5:36]you know, if there was enough insight that I could find from the science and I'm a science
[5:39]journalist, so I'm always looking at the research, then this could be really helpful.
[5:42]And it could actually like maybe change the world and some like, I mean, I realized
[5:45]that sounds really grandiose and horrible, but like narcissistic, but like I wanted to do
[5:50]something good.
[5:51]And when I did dig into the research, I saw there was like all of this research that
[5:55]really hadn't been translated to a lay audience and a lot of it was really surprising.
[5:59]And so that was when I was like, yeah, I, I need to do this.
[6:02]Like I need to, I want to write this book and I want, I want to learn from it myself.
[6:05]Like I wanted to learn how to become a better parent from the research.
[6:08]I don't think you can be accused of being a narcissist if you're trying to improve the world.
[6:16]So yeah, what did you find what were some of the things that you were like, oh my gosh,
[6:22]the whole world needs to know this and maybe if they did, we don't be better off.
[6:25]Yeah.
[6:26]Yeah.
[6:27]Well, first of all, you were saying like the first thing that you think about is like,
[6:29]how do you not screw up and how do you not make mistakes?
[6:32]And I think like the first thing I feel that's really important to say is like there is
[6:36]no such thing as a perfect parent or a perfect kid.
[6:39]And even like the parenting experts that I talk to, the like so called parenting experts,
[6:43]all the child psychologists, they're like, we don't know what we're doing half the time.
[6:46]This is so hard for us to and I honestly think making mistakes is a really important part
[6:52]of parenting.
[6:53]And it's actually really good for our kids when we screw up because it's an opportunity
[6:57]for us to, you know, take responsibility.
[6:59]Like when I yell at my kids, which I do sometimes, I don't, I'm not proud of it, but I do.
[7:04]And you know, that's a mistake and I own up to it, like, you know, I calm down and
[7:08]I say, look, I'm really sorry, I didn't handle that very well.
[7:10]Let's talk about what I could have done to calm myself down.
[7:13]Like I have them kind of problem solved with me.
[7:16]Like what could I have done better?
[7:17]I apologize.
[7:18]So I'm modeling, I'm modeling, apologizing and taking responsibility.
[7:21]So I and and like every time you kind of make a mistake and talking with your kids about
[7:25]something, then it's just like another reason to talk about it again and to keep bringing
[7:30]things up.
[7:31]Like themes of my book is and the fact that your daughter just called you means that you
[7:36]have this going really well, but like talk to your kids, make them feel like you are someone
[7:41]that they can come to with any kind of question about the world and and like lean into
[7:46]the really tough topics to like talk about sex and not just once and talk about pornography
[7:51]and talk about sexism and talk about racism.
[7:53]What the research shows is that like when we actually lean into these really awkward topics,
[7:57]the ones that we sometimes want to avoid because we want to protect our kids in a sense
[8:02]and we think, oh, they're not ready to learn this.
[8:04]They actually do much better when we take that chance and we talk about it and we we don't
[8:08]have to be perfect.
[8:09]We're going to make mistakes, but just making that effort and opening those lines of communication
[8:13]and like letting our kids know it's okay for them to come to us with questions about
[8:17]anything that is really like a really important groundwork for having a good relationship
[8:22]with your kids and for them to grow up with the values that you want them to have every
[8:26]time you talk with your kids, you're sharing your values, you're sharing your worldview
[8:29]in some way and if that's really really really constructive and helpful for kids, so that's
[8:34]a big one.
[8:35]Okay, I think that I love what you said about trust Melinda because that's like so important
[8:39]and when we model that, you know, apologizing and showing them that even we mess up, that's
[8:44]so helpful for them because, you know, we want to give that we want resilient kids.
[8:48]I think that's something, you know, we both talk a lot about in our books, it's this
[8:51]goal that we have for our kids is raising resilient kids who are able to be out there
[8:55]in the world independent and so when we have that trust with them and that relationship
[9:00]where they do feel like they can ask us any question, even the hard ones, then we can
[9:04]give them that autonomy, right, so that then they can make those mistakes and we can offer
[9:09]that guidance along the way and then we're continuing to build that trust because people
[9:13]ask us all the time like if we spy on our kids because we were spies so that must be
[9:17]what we're like telling people how to do and we're like well no because we focus a lot
[9:20]on building trust with them and giving them autonomy and because we're, you know, teaching
[9:25]them all these values along the way and these skills, we feel comfortable giving them
[9:29]a longer leash, right?
[9:31]Interesting.
[9:32]You know, the thing is like the people who are going to raise kids who are really awful
[9:37]for the most part are going to be pretty awful themselves, aren't they?
[9:42]Because I mean, I know that sounds like overly simplistic but like look, you two are
[9:48]like super nice women, like you're not going to have, I mean it's possible you have
[9:52]really awful kids, but I bet you don't.
[9:55]And I think like parents, especially moms, we can be so hard on them.
[10:00]ourselves like wanting to be perfect, right? And like, you know, I remember, you
[10:04]know, in an interview the other day where this woman was like, ask me for advice.
[10:06]And that's also humbling too because you're like, okay, well, it's not a silver bullet.
[10:10]Just because I've written a parenting book, I don't have it all figured out like
[10:13]every day is a struggle, right? You know, and, and I'm telling this mom, like, listen,
[10:18]the fact that you're asking these questions and you're like seeking advice and you're
[10:22]even worried about this for your kid already tells me that you're an amazing mom and you're
[10:26]doing a wonderful job, right? Like, if you didn't care, you didn't notice these things,
[10:30]like, that's a whole other issue. You know, but I think we have this idea and a lot of it is,
[10:35]you know, thanks to social media and all of these wonderful curated images. We see that we can
[10:40]scroll through at night when our kids are finally asleep and we're like, embeds for all
[10:44]things. Nobody does that, right? It's like, we get this idea that we have to be the perfect parent.
[10:50]And that just doesn't exist. I mean, it just doesn't. And we can, I think, as women,
[10:54]we often shoulder a lot of that burden. And, you know, even after we do this research and
[10:59]write these books, we're still just, you know, doing the best we can't. Absolutely.
[11:04]Yeah. I mean, they're just lucky to have us really. We should, I had this one friend who's like,
[11:10]I had lived with her a couple years ago, but I'll like never forget it. It was probably like
[11:13]10 years ago. And she worked in Manhattan, but she lived outside of the city. And we were having
[11:19]lunch and like, what's new? And she's like, well, I'm excited. I'm not going to feel guilty about
[11:23]anything anymore. And I was like, what do you mean? You know, just like, yeah, I'm just not going
[11:28]to. I'm not going to feel guilty. I'm not going to feel guilty that I'm sitting here having
[11:31]nice lunch. I'm not going to feel guilty. Like my kids are lucky to have me. And I'm going to be
[11:35]back at the end of the day. And I'm going to work really well with my job. And then I'm going to go
[11:38]home. And if they give me a hard time, like, oh, well, I'm not going to feel bad about it.
[11:43]And she's been so happy since then. Oh, that's fantastic. I feel like I need to take a
[11:48]class from her. I really did. Earlier today, my babysitter showed up. And she was not supposed to
[11:55]come today. She's supposed to come next Monday. And she showed up. And I felt guilty. Like,
[12:00]it was not my mistake. And I double checked. And I was like, I did give you the right dates. And
[12:04]she said, yes, I'm sorry. I made it. And I felt so bad. Like, I was like, I'm so sorry that you
[12:09]drove all the way here. And I'm sending you back. And there's so much guilt that we shoulder.
[12:14]And I was thinking about it. And I was like, you know what, if it was my husband. And she'd
[12:16]shown up. And he would have been like, it's the wrong day. And he wouldn't have felt guilty. Like,
[12:20]there's something about being a woman. And we just shoulder other people's, you know, bad feelings.
[12:26]And we take it on. And we just feel like it's all our fault. And it's not okay. Like, I'm really
[12:32]amazed that your friend said that she's just not gonna feel guilty. And that she's actually able to do
[12:36]it. Because I struggle with that a lot. Yeah. Well, I think most people do struggle.
[12:42]And she seemed like she used to, I mean, she used to. But it's like so detrimental to mental health,
[12:47]really. Yeah. I mean, we're also hard on ourselves. We can just use this as a therapy session. We
[12:52]can't see it. So I'm just gonna be like, have other mom friends to like talk to about this because like,
[13:00]you know, I mean, obviously my husband is my best friend. But like, on the times where I'm like,
[13:05]wow, like we've been mulling over the certain incidents, this instance related to like birthday
[13:09]parties on our almost five year old and like planning out this thing. And I was feeling the mom guilt
[13:15]and, you know, and he, and he's like, well, it's fine. It just doesn't work. So just let it go.
[13:19]And I'm like, I know, but I feel bad about this other friend. And he's like, just let it go. We've
[13:23]moved on. We're done. And I'm like, thinking, I'm just gonna message your girlfriend about
[13:28]so that I can continue to talk about it until I'm ready to move on. Yep. Yeah. Very key. You have to
[13:35]Yeah. Things can't be too clear cut. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We have to stress and use our minds to
[13:41]second guess and all of that. I don't know. But the thing that, you know, I've been, I was trying to say
[13:48]this recently about weight loss, which maybe I've taken too far now that I have like completely
[13:53]stuff watching what I'm eating. But I've decided like, we only have so much room in our brains,
[13:58]right? Like, yeah, the mental space, the mental space of maybe the guilt, maybe just worrying
[14:05]about how we're doing. And by the way, I don't mean to suggest that I don't worry. I second guess
[14:09]that I do all the time. But I'd prefer not to. Yeah. That's taking away space. We could be doing
[14:15]lots of other things. Like we're all reasonably bright women, right? You know, like you're all like,
[14:20]look at how accomplished you are. What else could you be doing with your bright? No, I'm serious.
[14:23]I'm just saying like, if we just even a smidge of it, if we took it off, we trust our kids,
[14:30]like they're going to be okay. Well, it's just like the little things too. I'm like,
[14:34]ah, should I get on the bike for like 30 minutes? I feel bad. I'll be ignoring the kids.
[14:40]And I'm like, this is 30 minutes, like 30 minutes out of their day. Like they'll be fine.
[14:45]And even if that means I'm giving them their tablets, they'll be fine because we also have to
[14:49]think about what we need for our own mental health, right? And like, what's going to help us be the
[14:53]best parent. And so for some people that's exercise for some people that's, you know, going out
[14:57]at night in ice feeding class in the winter by myself, you know, I was playing like, oh, yeah,
[15:03]that sounds oddly specific. That was me. It was playing on, I don't know if anyone,
[15:09]if you guys have read Fair Play by Yivrodski, but she talked about, you know, unicorn space,
[15:13]and that's her next book. And so I really like leaned into that this past winter. And I decided that
[15:18]I was going to find my like, inner Nancy Carrigan. And I went like once a week by myself and had
[15:25]a nice getting class. And I was just carving out time for me. And, you know, it can be really therapeutic.
[15:30]A friend of mine has gotten really into pottery. And she has a guest room that like no one has stayed in
[15:36]for like two years. She's like, it's really wish I had space. I'm like, don't you have that room?
[15:40]And within 24 hours, she had like moved the bed out. She told her husband, you know what,
[15:45]you have the whole basement for like your man cave. Like, this is now my pottery room that's
[15:49]declared everything out. And like, she's making that space for her to have that time that she needs
[15:54]to recharge away from the kids and do what she needs to do to be creative and feel like her and,
[15:59]you know, it helps her be a better parent. That's awesome. I think that's such a good point though.
[16:02]Like we cannot sacrifice everything for our kids because we will then be worse parents. Like,
[16:07]we have to take time for ourselves. And we have, we have to make, not take, but make and take,
[16:13]I guess, time for ourselves because otherwise, I mean, if we just don't exercise, we don't do
[16:18]the things to make us happy. We don't have hobbies. We will be miserable parents and our kids will learn,
[16:24]you know, not such good things from that. And, you know, we also need to model like taking care of
[16:30]ourselves for our kids. You know, that's also important. And for them to see that we do that. And
[16:34]that they should also be thinking about that. So there's all sorts of reasons we need to do this.
[16:38]When I think like modeling hobbies too is so important because like, we really want our kids to be
[16:43]well-rounded. And like that's something that we talk a lot about in licensed a parent because the
[16:47]site is this idea that the more well-rounded you are and the more interest you have as a person,
[16:52]the more capable you are of making connections with other people and building trust.
[16:56]Of course, this goes back to our time. It's like recruiting intelligence assets and trying to
[17:00]like build a connection. But it's so relevant in life. And so we want our kids to be well-rounded
[17:05]and have hobbies. But I realized, like, first after leaving CIA, I had this huge identity crisis.
[17:10]Like, who was I if I didn't work at the CIA? And then I became a mom and a stay-at-home mom,
[17:14]and it was like, who am I without a career? You know, going through all these things and even
[17:18]realizing like, well into my 30s, like, wait a minute, I have like zero hobbies. Like, how did
[17:24]this happen, right? And then basically getting to the point where if I want my kids to be well-rounded,
[17:28]I also have to model that for them and showing them that, you know, one, I'm going to try things
[17:33]that maybe I'm not so great at. So then I'm modeling failure for them. But also showing them that
[17:38]like, no matter what age we are, you're never too old to try new things. And it's not about
[17:43]being a rock star or being a failure. Like, sometimes we can fall somewhere, you know, completely
[17:48]in the middle and be mediocre. I never became, you know, this is a spoiler alert. I didn't become
[17:52]insecure again. Yeah, I'm a Gucci. These are like some really big throwbacks for people who
[17:57]watched, you know, 90s figure skating. I'm following the references. Yeah. So that never happened
[18:03]for me. But you know what? I enjoyed it. It's one thing, you know, one more thing that's like
[18:07]in my tool belt. And so it's all about kind of modeling that for our kids. But giving our kids
[18:12]these experiences to try new things without getting so caught up in them, like being a rock star
[18:17]and putting like the pressure on them to like be perfect and like be so fantastic at everything they
[18:22]do and like allowing them to space to just try new things and even fail. It's sort of like, you know,
[18:28]if you think about, this is maybe this isn't going to make any sense. But like before you have
[18:33]kids, you're like running, running, running, right? You're like on one of those things in the airport
[18:37]where you're like, you're going fast, right? And you're doing like a zillion things. And if your
[18:41]kids saw you, that would be like an accurate depiction of you. But then just because you have them,
[18:46]you like hop off the thing and sit on the floor and just like stare at them, right? That's not
[18:52]who you are. And they'll probably just stare back at you and be like, get back on the thing.
[18:56]Because they're going to be the people who want to run too. I know I'm being, this is probably
[18:59]not making any sense that I'm just like spouting up, but I'm tired and this is not my mind tonight.
[19:04]So sorry. I'll just say, I feel like, you know, it's great to for us all like everybody needs
[19:12]the skills. Like that's why your books are so important, right? Because nobody really knows what
[19:15]they're doing. And we look to other people and other moms and friends and we need that because we
[19:20]need the reassurance, like we're not going to be messing up our kids and everything's going to be
[19:25]okay and getting specific advice and facts rooted in science or strategies that have been time
[19:30]tested against people hopefully far worse than our kids. You know, those are comforts,
[19:36]they're comforts and it allows moms to sleep better at night and feel more empowered in what they're
[19:41]doing. But ultimately, you know, after you read the books and put them down, like you have to just
[19:46]like go back to being who you are. And chances are, since your kids are probably going to be
[19:51]somewhat like you, they won't have such a huge problem with it. And in the end, I think it's just
[19:56]this sort of empowerment that I don't know if we all
[20:00]felt like that. We had to be so much better, huh? But we just don't. And I don't either, but I
[20:05]I don't know. It would be nice. I think a lot of the reason is because we're living in this time
[20:09]of like so much helicopter parenting. And like we've forgotten all of the things that our kids
[20:14]are actually very capable of if we would just give them the opportunity. But it's so hard because,
[20:19]you know, not only are we striving for our kids to reach perfection and get into this, you know,
[20:24]special preschool or college or whatever level they're at, we're also, you know,
[20:29]experiencing all of these new products on the market that are playing to this like anxiety
[20:33]that you may have. You know, and I talk a lot about, you know, I'm very transparent that I experienced
[20:37]postpartum anxiety with my son. And I had always been a warrior and an anxious person, but it took on
[20:42]like a completely different meaning. You know, and I had heard people say things like, oh, you know,
[20:47]I used to do theater, but I can't do it anymore because of my anxiety. And I even like, I'm embarrassed to say
[20:52]this, but I would even like be like, okay, you know, it's also how I felt about my dreams before I ever had one like,
[20:57]oh, you got a headache. You know, and then you experience something and you're like, wow, I feel
[21:01]like an asshole, right? And so I experienced like full on anxiety and, you know, you start clinging to
[21:08]all these products on the market that play to parents anxiety, whether it's a sock that you're,
[21:12]you know, measuring their oxygen intake. So you're checking it multiple times throughout the night
[21:17]and you're not even resting, right? Or like a GPS tracker, which I did both of these things by the way.
[21:23]And I think some of these things can be fantastic if people are able to get peace of mind from them,
[21:27]but they can also become something that we obsess over and it can do the opposite of giving us
[21:33]peace of mind, right? And so that's kind of the world that we're in now. Like not only is there like
[21:38]so much sadness, like Melinda was talking about and we're trying to raise kind kids, but we're also
[21:43]like surrounded by all of these things that just make us more anxious parents. And so it's like,
[21:47]I have to take a step back from those things. And really like, my husband helps me a lot because
[21:52]he's been parenting a lot longer than I have, you know, our oldest of my step kids, you know,
[21:56]she's 18 almost 19. So when we had met, he had already been parenting for 10 years and he has
[22:01]a much more like easygoing personality than I do. And so if I do get spun up, it does help
[22:06]to have kind of more of that calming personality and someone who's kind of already been through,
[22:09]you know, he had already done the baby thing three times before me, you know, so he kind of let
[22:14]me experience things and just sort of let things float and let me find it my way. But you know,
[22:19]I've realized that when we give them that space, you know, they can do more than we think, they
[22:25]are really capable, but it can be easier, seven done to kind of give that space, especially when it's,
[22:30]you know, serious anxiety that you need, you know, whether whatever kind of treatment that's appropriate,
[22:35]like it's, I don't mean to diminish like it's not like, oh, you just decide, you know, it can be a
[22:39]very difficult thing to overcome. I talk a lot in the book about the other way this anxiety or
[22:44]similar anxieties manifest and affect kids is through like the pressure we put on them to excel
[22:51]and like, you know, putting three-year-olds in Mandarin classes and ballet classes and, you know,
[22:56]soccer and all of these things that, that, you know, on some level, we're doing it so that kids
[23:02]socialize and, you know, they're learning new skills and they're well-rounded. And I think that's,
[23:05]it's really good to a degree, but then sometimes it's like becomes this competitive sort of
[23:12]very scary culture where, you know, you think, oh my gosh, I need to sign my kit up for 18 things
[23:18]because how are they going to get into college? And, you know, what if they don't get into the
[23:22]private school that I'm dreaming that they go to in high school? And there's all sorts of,
[23:26]and like, I mean, there are, there are parents who are hiring SAT tutors for like fourth graders,
[23:31]you know, so there's all the stuff where our fear for our kids, like, will they succeed,
[23:37]will they do okay in the world? We are then putting pressure on them to, you know, get good grades
[23:42]get the highest score on the SATs to get the lead in the play to make the travel soccer team.
[23:46]And what I found in the research, which, so I was really interested in like, what do we know about
[23:51]kid self-esteem and what foster's healthy self-esteem? Because this felt very, very important for,
[23:55]you know, raising like happy kind kids, etc. Is that this pressure that parents put on kids actually
[24:03]really strongly impacts their self-esteem and in a very negative way because they start to think,
[24:08]and we don't ever say this, of course, but they start to think that our love for them is
[24:12]contingent upon what they're doing, like what they achieve. Even if, you know, we never say like,
[24:17]I won't love you if you get a B, but they infer this from like how much we care about their grades
[24:22]and how much we care about what they achieve. And when kids feel that our love for them is conditional
[24:28]upon like what they do, it's really a big hit to their self-esteem and what they need more than
[24:32]anything else to have a healthy self-esteem ultimately is just to feel unconditional love. Like,
[24:37]I don't care what you do. Like, you could screw up 8,000 times. You could get all F's, whatever
[24:41]I will still love you. So that was a really interesting and concerning thing that I uncovered from
[24:47]the research was just how powerful that pressure that's so well-meaning. Like, we are all scared
[24:53]and we all want the best for our kids, but when we pile it on, like, and we make them feel like
[24:57]you have to do this and this and this and this and this, it really makes them feel less than and
[25:00]then they will ultimately struggle. So, we don't like that either, right? We don't like having
[25:06]people pile set, right? I mean, no, right. When I get the same vein, you know, when parents are
[25:14]anxious, when we're anxious and we're trying to protect our kids because we don't want them to get
[25:18]hurt, we don't want them to be harmed and you know, not just fail, but like actually become
[25:23]physically hurt. We're wanting to like keep them safe. But in that regard, we can sometimes send
[25:27]messages that we don't realize we're sending. Like, so for example, my son who's almost five,
[25:31]you know, he would always look to me before doing some things. So if we were at the park, my husband
[25:35]was there too. And, you know, he would tell him like, oh, you know, go right around the track. And I
[25:41]thought it was too far. He would like immediately look to me to see what my facial expression was. And
[25:46]even if I said, okay, if he sends any sort of hesitancy on my face, he would say, no, I don't want
[25:51]to do it. And it came to a head one day when he and I were at a at the lake. And there was a huge
[25:57]boulder that he wanted to climb. And I was so anxious. I guess this is like a rite of passage for
[26:02]kids in the northwest. I grew up like in cornfields in the Midwest. And like, we were not climbing
[26:06]boulders there. And I have like a ridiculous fear of heights. Like, I didn't climb the rope and gym
[26:11]class like two feet off the ground. And I thought I was like all the way at the top, you know,
[26:14]that sort of thing. And he's wanting to climb this boulder. And I am so anxious. All I can do is
[26:20]envision him like tumbling down. Like, I don't know how I'm going to go up and get him if I have to
[26:24]like because I'm so terrified. And I see the look in his eyes. And he's like tearing up. And he's
[26:29]like, mommy, I know I can do it. And I had this like turning point of like, oh my gosh, like all
[26:36]this time I've been anxious. And I thought I was protecting him. And I'm actually like hurting
[26:40]his self esteem and his confidence because he thinks I don't believe in him. Like, he doesn't
[26:45]know that I'm trying to protect him. He thinks I don't believe in him. And I was like, so just like,
[26:50]oh no, I have to like fix some things. And so of course we, you know, came up with some strategies
[26:55]of what that looks like in our family. And maybe that means sometimes I don't go to some things.
[26:59]Like, Ryan taught him how to ski last winter. And I didn't go until he knew how. And so then I was
[27:04]there to watch him. So he could show off his new skills. Like, I knew that I wasn't comfortable
[27:09]being there while he was learning and that he was going to pick up on my anxiety. And so allowing
[27:14]him to go and have that time, which is hard because I'm, I'm fun. You know, I want to like go do
[27:19]fun things. But you know, I've had to just kind of delegate those things, you know, for dad so that I
[27:25]can come in once he's more confident and secure. And I know that he's not going to like ski into a
[27:29]tree. You know, I was like, I were like sharing a brain. I had to stop going to this one playground
[27:35]because I was like, I was like, and they're fine. And my kids too, they were like, you know,
[27:44]it's okay. It's like a two foot ladder. And I'm like, I don't like clatters. Like, what the heck?
[27:47]Yeah. You know what? I'm not going to, I can't go to this playground because of my own stupid
[27:52]issues, right? I worried. And I, but I feel like that's also okay to be like, okay, you know what?
[27:59]Like when you're a parent, take, take stock of your own stuff and everybody's got different
[28:04]stuff. And if you know, you're like a highly anxious person and that's going to rub off really badly,
[28:09]like, don't put yourself in like super anxiety provoking situations for you. Like, let's give them
[28:14]the benefit of the tap. They'll develop their anxiety disorder for all their own, without our
[28:19]health. Until age seven, they might actually be okay. So you might as well let them go. So
[28:24]got the goal of juries kids who need like as little therapy as an adult because of us as possible,
[28:29]right? Oh, my God. Oh, man. That's so funny because I'm the same
[28:34]exact way. Like I can't go hiking. My husband loves to take them on these hikes that go down,
[28:38]you know, on these cliffs and like they're scrambling up rocks and I'm like, I can't go on those
[28:43]hikes. Like I will, yeah, I'm the same exact way. I'm super anxious about heights and kids and
[28:48]stuff. But you know, these kids of ours who have moms like us, they're not going to end up being
[28:54]rehearsals. You should really make your next book, how to raise kids who aren't like anxious
[29:02]messes because my kids are, I mean, I shouldn't talk about it. But like knowing myself, the assumption
[29:09]like that was, it's probably a huge risk for them, right? Especially if you have a, you know,
[29:15]how to raise kids of parents who are really anxious themselves or like, I'm sure there are
[29:21]anxiety because I'm joking. But, but not really because I need this book to break your qualities
[29:28]that you don't want like rubbing off on your kids. And that's like always one that I think
[29:32]of like Ryan and I, we took the kids up this gondola ride at the ski resort, but not during
[29:37]ski season. So this was several years ago, Gigi was like still a baby. I think I had her like
[29:40]in there go thank God because if she was walking, she would have like run off the mountain top,
[29:44]I'm sure of it because she's my spirited one. But he did not tell me beforehand like what this gondola
[29:50]was. And it was like all glass as I think a lot of them are, but it was very high off the ground.
[29:57]And like the whole time, I was just thinking like.
[30:00]don't give your kids issues, don't give them messages.
[30:02]And so I'm like,
[30:03]ooh,
[30:05]it's like smiling and grinning through it.
[30:07]And like there was a restaurant at the top
[30:09]and he like wanted to sit on these like Adirondack chairs.
[30:12]Like on the edge of the mountain,
[30:13]you might be in their restaurant the whole time.
[30:17]And he's like, I think how I used to be
[30:19]like before I experienced anxiety.
[30:21]Like he just doesn't get it.
[30:22]And he's like, okay, like, you know,
[30:24]I feel like if you haven't really,
[30:26]especially like after having babies as a woman,
[30:28]like postpartum anxiety,
[30:29]it's like, it's a thing that it can be hard,
[30:32]especially for a man to really understand
[30:34]what that is like.
[30:35]And yeah, so I won't go up to that on the leg.
[30:38]And so it's a no go for me.
[30:41]Yeah.
[30:42]I think it's good that we recognize, though,
[30:43]that we have these tendencies
[30:45]and that we need to pull ourselves back
[30:47]instead of like controlling the situation,
[30:50]telling our kids,
[30:50]don't do this, don't sit on that chair, you know,
[30:52]instead we're like,
[30:53]I'm gonna go sit over here and not look.
[30:55]And you know,
[30:56]and it sounds like maybe our partners
[30:58]are also like a little less anxious than we are,
[31:00]which is really good.
[31:02]So they can take a lot of moments.
[31:03]That is really the key.
[31:05]I feel like I want to go back and like,
[31:07]you know, talk to everybody in college
[31:09]or something like that and be like,
[31:11]this is like, don't go with that guy.
[31:14]You know,
[31:15]you are this type of person.
[31:17]It's not going to work out as well with that type of person.
[31:19]But like,
[31:20]for those of you who have anxiety
[31:22]enough to write entire books
[31:24]about how to basically manage your anxiety
[31:26]by giving yourselves the tools
[31:28]to like not be anxious parents.
[31:30]You know, calm person in the house
[31:32]is probably not the worst thing.
[31:34]Yeah, for sure.
[31:36]One of the things that like we wish we could tell ourselves,
[31:38]like our oldest or freshmen right now in college.
[31:41]And it's like,
[31:42]you know, you send her off on her way
[31:44]and you're trying to like tell her things.
[31:46]Like this is what I wish I would have done.
[31:48]Or like you're trying to like give advice
[31:49]because you want your kids to like
[31:51]not make the same mistakes that you did.
[31:53]But then there's that element of like,
[31:55]okay, you just have to kind of like,
[31:56]let them go and watch them.
[31:59]Even if they do make the same mistake
[32:01]because, you know,
[32:02]sometimes you just have to learn it for yourself.
[32:04]But yeah, it's so, so wild to have one
[32:07]just out of the house.
[32:09]I just wrote this essay for my son.
[32:11]My son goes to a boarding school.
[32:13]And he's also, you know, he's 14
[32:15]and he started like talking to girls and whatever.
[32:17]And I was like, I can't let this,
[32:19]how is he going to just,
[32:20]he's not going to figure it out on his own?
[32:22]Is he like, I have to like give him a look.
[32:24]I love that.
[32:25]I love that.
[32:26]I say it was so good.
[32:27]Oh, thank you.
[32:28]But, you know, could I have let him
[32:30]take you guys away in the world?
[32:32]You know, why he's probably going to come back to that?
[32:36]Like at different stages of his life
[32:38]because why you wrote is so relevant,
[32:39]no matter what age he's dating,
[32:41]which I think like what he gets out of it now
[32:43]is going to be totally different
[32:44]when he gets out of it when he's in college.
[32:46]And then as an adult, like it's timeless.
[32:49]Yeah.
[32:49]I have to say one mom friend.
[32:51]I know she read it and she was like,
[32:53]I read your essay and I started crying
[32:54]because the part of what I said to my son
[32:57]is like, you know, treat women really nicely.
[32:59]And you know, ask some questions
[33:02]and don't assume women are the same.
[33:03]And like, and then I said at the end,
[33:05]like for cuttakes, like don't forget her birthday.
[33:07]Like, and anyway, this friend of mine came to me
[33:10]and she was like, my husband just totally forgot my birthday.
[33:12]You know, she's like, he went to like some guys
[33:15]saying something.
[33:16]He forgot it was even my birthday when it was coming.
[33:18]No, it's so sad.
[33:19]Anyway, I also should say, and as I'm talking about this,
[33:23]like it's not a foregone conclusion
[33:25]that because you're a nice person,
[33:26]you don't have kids who have some interpersonal issues.
[33:30]So I shouldn't be totally dismissive of that.
[33:32]There really are kids who are just struggle with emotions
[33:37]and do get into trouble and do have trouble,
[33:40]you know, being kind, even if they might deep down
[33:43]feel like that and do have behavioral issues.
[33:45]So I didn't mean to suggest that, you know,
[33:47]being a nice parent solves all.
[33:49]I just think that maybe for 80% of nice parents,
[33:53]you might be okay, but 20% you might not be okay.
[33:57]That's my, it makes you, it makes you question yourself
[34:00]as a parent, right?
[34:01]Like we had, so Ari started pre-K two weeks ago.
[34:05]And so I only have one kid at home now
[34:07]because my bigs are in school, in person school,
[34:09]which is amazing.
[34:11]And so Ari's in person pre-K,
[34:12]it's I have my three year old at home.
[34:14]And I was thinking like,
[34:15]we're gonna have this like special one on one time.
[34:17]She's never had just me.
[34:19]This is gonna be so great.
[34:21]And she was like a monster.
[34:23]The first thing that I think so much of it was,
[34:26]I mean, this was a huge change for me.
[34:28]You know, Ari has been a fixture of her entire life.
[34:31]And all of a sudden, he's gone and we're dropping him off.
[34:33]And I'm thinking like, oh, this is so fun.
[34:35]We're gonna like, bob around together.
[34:36]And she's just kind of like just totally acting out.
[34:38]Like we had to leave this park because she's hitting me.
[34:41]And I was just like,
[34:42]and then you started to think like,
[34:43]oh my gosh, like what am I doing wrong, you know?
[34:46]And I think that's just such a normal moment
[34:49]for so many parents to go through.
[34:51]And like the answer is nothing.
[34:52]You're doing nothing wrong.
[34:53]Like it's, and I had this wonderful girlfriend say to me,
[34:56]you know, anytime that you catch yourself thinking,
[35:00]this is just how she is.
[35:01]She's always gonna be like that.
[35:03]Correct yourself and say this is just a phase.
[35:05]She is going through an adjustment.
[35:07]This is a huge adjustment for all of you.
[35:08]He's starting a school, you know?
[35:10]And I just loved that advice
[35:12]because I was hesitant like I didn't want any advice.
[35:14]I just wanted to like vent to a friend, right?
[35:15]I didn't want anyone saying like this is what to do.
[35:18]Like she's so fantastic.
[35:19]She has four kids of her own
[35:20]and she has kind of like some bigs and littles,
[35:22]but they're a little bit older than ours.
[35:24]And so she's like a really seasoned parent.
[35:26]I've been married for 20 years and like so wise.
[35:28]And like she just knew like the exact advice to give
[35:31]that was like, although unsolicited,
[35:33]but like so welcomed because she just said,
[35:35]this is a phase.
[35:36]Like it's not you.
[35:37]You're not doing anything wrong.
[35:38]And I think that's really something
[35:40]that we need to learn so often as parents.
[35:42]Absolutely. Yeah.
[35:44]And also, I mean, we've been talking a lot about anxiety.
[35:47]So I'll just keep talking about anxiety,
[35:48]but like kids have a lot of anxiety
[35:50]and it does not manifest the way
[35:51]adulting anxiety manifests.
[35:53]It can be seen as really challenging behavior.
[35:55]It can be seen as like inflexibility, you know,
[35:58]and like everything has to go a certain way
[36:00]or else you have meltdowns.
[36:01]My son has struggled with this a lot.
[36:03]Like anxiety can look so many different ways in kids.
[36:05]And it can be really hard for parents
[36:07]to even understand what's going on.
[36:09]And yeah, I mean, you're like,
[36:11]she was going through a huge transition with him gone.
[36:14]And like, that's, or sorry, with your daughter already.
[36:17]Yeah, with Ari gone.
[36:18]Yeah.
[36:19]Yeah.
[36:20]Yes. Right.
[36:21]But yeah, that's like a huge, huge change.
[36:23]And it's, you know, it makes sense
[36:25]that that kind of transition can just elicit
[36:26]so much difficult behavior.
[36:28]But it's so hard to realize that and see that.
[36:30]And it is especially in the moment
[36:32]when you're like absolutely not.
[36:33]Like when you have like a really fun day plan for them
[36:35]and then you like do the whole,
[36:37]well, if you're actually like this,
[36:38]we're going to have to leave
[36:39]and you're like secretly hoping like,
[36:40]if you don't act like this,
[36:41]because I want to stay and then they do act like that.
[36:43]And you're like,
[36:44]oh, now we have to leave
[36:45]because I have to like stick to my guns.
[36:47]But you know, I stuck it out.
[36:48]We had several bad days
[36:50]where we didn't get to do the fun things.
[36:52]And today we had a great day.
[36:55]She's a real ballet class.
[36:57]And she felt like she had something for her.
[36:59]And like we did a special park day,
[37:01]a special lunch day.
[37:02]And like she was like a different kid.
[37:04]And I was like, okay, yeah, it takes all of us time.
[37:08]I mean, September is hard.
[37:09]I feel like it's always such a transition.
[37:12]Like I don't know.
[37:13]Like very emotional.
[37:13]September is always super emotional for so many reasons.
[37:16]And I don't know.
[37:17]Why are we gonna,
[37:18]I don't know.
[37:20]He's in first grade and he had a birthday party.
[37:22]And he really didn't want to go.
[37:24]And I was like,
[37:24]do I force him to go?
[37:26]Do I not force him to go?
[37:27]Somehow I was like,
[37:28]let's just go for like 20 minutes or half an hour.
[37:30]Let's just at least like put it in an appearance.
[37:33]So to speak.
[37:33]Now that you're supposed to do that,
[37:34]we're kids ready to do it.
[37:35]Anyway, so we like go there
[37:37]and he stops like,
[37:39]won't move a foot.
[37:40]Like maybe six feet away from the party.
[37:43]He's like, no, like he doesn't want to go.
[37:45]Yeah. So we were like standing there
[37:46]and some people were coming and he's like,
[37:48]no, I don't want to.
[37:49]No, thanks.
[37:50]I'll see them in school.
[37:51]And I was like, okay.
[37:53]And I stood there for a few minutes
[37:55]and I was like, let's just go.
[37:57]And I was like, I could be
[37:59]and I was walking out of the park with him.
[38:00]And he's like, can I get a pretzel?
[38:02]And I was like, you know,
[38:03]let's just go get pretzels together and hang out.
[38:05]And then I was thinking to myself,
[38:06]like I said to him, I was like,
[38:08]I think other moms would probably have said,
[38:11]if you sit and watch the magic show,
[38:13]then we can go get a pretzel.
[38:15]I was like, but I'm not like kind of mom.
[38:16]So I hope I'm not messing you up,
[38:18]but then he was like,
[38:19]no, I don't want you to be that type of mom.
[38:21]He's like, I'll go talk to those kids in school,
[38:23]but I don't want to do it in this big group.
[38:24]And I was like, I wouldn't want to do it in this big group
[38:26]either.
[38:27]So I just sometimes have to listen to the kids.
[38:30]Yeah. And that is so mature of him.
[38:32]To be able to understand that that's what he wanted.
[38:36]Like, this is making me anxious.
[38:37]I don't want to go have to be at this party
[38:39]and interact with these kids.
[38:40]Like so many young kids, first grade, my gosh,
[38:42]like would just be having Melton's
[38:44]but not be able to communicate that.
[38:46]Or the fact that he communicated that is really something.
[38:49]And I think it's great that you listened.
[38:51]And you said, you know what,
[38:52]like I understand, let's do something else.
[38:54]And you kind of let him, you know,
[38:56]having recognized how he feels and what he wants.
[38:58]Like to say, you know what,
[38:59]I'm going to listen to you.
[39:00]I think that's wonderful.
[39:01]I've been being my fourth child.
[39:04]It's for my first child.
[39:08]I would say it a little bit very differently.
[39:09]I understand.
[39:10]But now I have the confidence to be like,
[39:12]what, I don't know.
[39:14]Anyway, and I think that's part of,
[39:16]just to see both of your books
[39:19]there's like touch on, right?
[39:20]It's like learning the tools
[39:21]that make you the best parent you could be.
[39:23]And if that's time or if it's tactics or science
[39:27]or whatever, like arming yourself
[39:29]with the tools that you need
[39:30]is how you're going to get through this whole
[39:31]crazy period of time.
[39:33]Well, and what I like to say is when it comes
[39:35]to parenting books, especially because there are so many
[39:38]and you can quickly become, you know,
[39:39]talk about anxiety.
[39:40]You can become like overwhelmed with all of the advice
[39:42]and feeling like you're doing everything wrong.
[39:45]I like to say, take what works and leave the rest.
[39:47]Like it's unlikely that you're going to pick up
[39:49]a parenting book and like every single thing
[39:52]that it says, right?
[39:53]Because every family is different.
[39:55]Every child is different.
[39:57]You're going to have to find what level, you know,
[39:59]feels appropriate.
[40:00]what level of autonomy, you know, all of these different things.
[40:02]And so I like to tell people, you know,
[40:04]just take the things that you like.
[40:05]And if you don't like them, you know,
[40:06]I feel like I used to have this mindset
[40:07]of if I read a parenting book,
[40:09]I'd have to like be fully on board with everything
[40:11]that it's said.
[40:11]And that's just not true because every family
[40:13]has its own dynamics.
[40:14]I think one of the most important things
[40:16]in choosing a parenting book is really
[40:17]liking the parent who's writing the book.
[40:20]Well, that is weird.
[40:20]Like, you guys are a little bit weird for you.
[40:22]Good job.
[40:23]Good to see you exactly like Paul.
[40:25]You're so funny in your book about like you're dating.
[40:28]I mean, yeah, you want to get advice for somebody
[40:30]who you would want to be like sitting next to
[40:31]on the playground.
[40:33]And the person is like this didactic person
[40:37]that you wouldn't really want to talk to.
[40:38]Maybe their advice is not irrelevant.
[40:41]Well, this was so much fun.
[40:43]Thanks, ladies.
[40:44]I'm sorry, I was a little loopy tonight.
[40:45]I hope it was okay.
[40:46]Just talking to you as if we've known each other forever here.
[40:49]But, you know, if anybody's feeling anxious
[40:51]wants to keep this conversation going,
[40:54]not the people that you would love it.
[40:56]Well, you've had a long day.
[40:57]And well, you should.
[40:58]Yeah.
[40:59]I don't think it was a part of the intro.
[41:00]I know I probably should have said that like,
[41:01]yes, I'm starting.
[41:02]I started a public makeup when he cuts a V-books.
[41:05]And I think that's it.
[41:06]And I think that's awesome.
[41:07]It's awesome.
[41:09]Yeah, 12 bucks a year.
[41:10]I'm more in fiction kind of like book club-ish
[41:12]and I'm going to change up all these different things
[41:15]and I'm really excited.
[41:16]I love it.
[41:17]Fantastic.
[41:18]Yeah, I'm excited.
[41:19]All right.
[41:20]Thank you.
[41:21]Thank you.
[41:22]Thank you.
[41:22]Thank you.
[41:23]Thanks, ladies.
[41:24]Bye.
[41:26]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[41:28]Don't have time to read books.
[41:30]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[41:33]and at Moms Don't have time to read books.
[41:35]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[41:37]and sign up for my virtual book club
[41:39]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[41:42]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[41:43]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[41:46]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[41:47]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.