Dr. Traci Baxley, SOCIAL JUSTICE PARENTING: How to Raise Compassionate Anti Racist Justice Minded Kids in an Unjust World
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[0:41]Dr. Tracy Baxley is the author of Social Justice Parenting.
[0:44]Hatterays compassionate, anti-racist, justice-minded kids in an unjust world.
[0:50]She is a professor, consultant, parenting coach speaker, mother to five biracial children
[0:55]and the creator of Social Justice Parenting.
[0:58]An educator for over 30 years with degrees in child development, elementary education,
[1:03]and curriculum and instruction, she specializes in diversity and inclusion, anti-bias curriculum
[1:08]and social justice education.
[1:10]Her first book, Social Justice Parenting, is published by Harper Wave.
[1:15]She lives with her husband and children in Boca Raton.
[1:17]Welcome, Tracy.
[1:18]Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books to discuss social justice
[1:22]parenting.
[1:23]Hatterays compassionate, anti-racist, justice-minded kids in an unjust world.
[1:29]Thank you for having me.
[1:30]I'm excited to be here.
[1:32]I loved this book.
[1:34]I was reading this and I was like, oh my gosh, I cannot wait to talk to her.
[1:37]Your whole sensibility about the world and people and how we all basically need to be kind
[1:42]and show up for each other.
[1:44]And this is how I live my life too.
[1:45]So it was just so great to read this.
[1:47]And of course, you wrote it in a really great way.
[1:49]I was like, what?
[1:50]I shouldn't write something like that.
[1:51]Anyway, so it's great.
[1:52]And I love how much you shared about your own kids because that just made everything so
[1:56]much more powerful.
[1:57]So anyway, thank you for all of that.
[1:59]Thank you.
[2:00]Thank you for that positive feedback.
[2:02]So tell listeners sort of what the crux of this book is and like what, what made you
[2:07]to stop what you were doing and write this book?
[2:09]Yeah, it's real.
[2:10]I think there were moments in my own parenting, right?
[2:13]There's moments in my own home that I realized that I can't raise my kids alone that
[2:18]I really need other moms, other parents, other people to really be looking out for
[2:22]my kids too.
[2:23]And so I just thought, you know, I've always been the kind of the village mom, right?
[2:29]That I think it takes all of us.
[2:31]And that was kind of the premise behind it.
[2:33]Like what do we need to do as society as a global village to support each other and raising
[2:39]children who were grew up doing positive things in the world.
[2:42]And that was kind of the backdrop for it.
[2:46]And I think all the sad and native things that came out of COVID, this book was what positive
[2:51]thing for me because it allowed me to slow down to get all of those words on paper.
[2:56]I had been playing around with it, you know, writing stuff here and there over the last
[3:00]couple of years, but having that time where I wasn't driving my kids to and from, I use
[3:05]that time to say, okay, I'm not in car pickup.
[3:08]I'm going to death and pretend I'm sitting and writing.
[3:11]And so I was the pandemic really helped birth this book.
[3:14]And so I'm grateful for the time to slow down.
[3:17]But I really wrote it for parents in general, but specifically moms, you know, because
[3:21]I really think there's something special about moms that we really get things done, you
[3:26]know, when our minds are laid up and will be form a team.
[3:30]And I really think it's the moms and the lives of children that will help make that change
[3:35]for us.
[3:36]I love how you say that all moms are by nature activists.
[3:40]Yeah.
[3:41]Tell me about that statement because I love that.
[3:43]Yeah.
[3:44]I think we don't realize everything that we're doing at home is a part of that movement,
[3:48]right?
[3:49]The way we show up for our kids, the way we talk to our kids, you know, in the moments
[3:53]that we're not seeing anything, it's really teaching a lesson to.
[3:56]And I think we look at social justice and we look at activism as something really big
[4:01]and something that other people do or other groups do, but we're really doing it at
[4:05]our own homes, right?
[4:07]The things that we do in private and our homes, they're going to show up in public spaces
[4:11]at some point or another because our kids are going to be out in the world.
[4:15]So all the layers that we've kind of embedded in our children will show up when we're
[4:20]another.
[4:21]So why not intentionally put those things in our children that will really help, perhaps
[4:27]society, you know, in the long run?
[4:29]It's true.
[4:30]When moms get together, you know, and I know you cited a lot of examples like mothers
[4:33]against drunk driving and, you know, when everybody bands together and decides to focus
[4:37]on something, there's so much power in that.
[4:40]So the idea that all of us moms can sort of put our heads together and raise kind kids
[4:47]and kids who are aware and who stick up for each other.
[4:50]And I love how you said that there was a platinum rule instead of the golden rule.
[4:53]Like it's not just that you have to, you know, imagine how other people think.
[4:57]It's how, you know, it's not just do unto others as you would have others do unto you,
[5:02]but what would they want?
[5:03]Because they're not you.
[5:04]So you have to like go that extra mile and like how amazing a society if we all had kids
[5:10]who operated like that, right?
[5:11]Like forget us.
[5:12]Like it's too late for us, but maybe the next generation can be like that.
[5:16]So I found that super inspiring.
[5:18]Yeah.
[5:19]I agree with you.
[5:20]You know, we now have to pour into our kids the things that we may not have done well.
[5:25]You know, and as children, and when we reflect on our own childhood, we can see that
[5:31]maybe there's some things that our parents didn't do, you know, because they didn't
[5:35]know better.
[5:36]Things that we can look back on and think that we didn't necessarily pick up.
[5:40]But now we know better.
[5:41]And we want to steal those things for our kids to grow up and do better.
[5:45]But in order to practice a platinum rule, you really have to get to know people, right?
[5:51]And so that includes the open dialogue, it includes moving away from protecting our kids
[5:58]so that they don't get the experiences of others in order to really realize that our lived
[6:04]experiences and our needs are very different from other people's.
[6:08]So true.
[6:09]And I like how you address, you know, how to raise kids who are sensitive about race,
[6:13]and how you even have, you know, when you ask the reader to reflect like, how did, you
[6:18]know, when it was race discussed in your house or something like that, and a lot of your
[6:22]clients, I guess it said like, well, never, I don't know.
[6:25]Or when did you talk to your kids about race and people say, well, I haven't chosen
[6:28]to do that.
[6:29]And you said something like, well, isn't that nice?
[6:31]You get to choose.
[6:32]Isn't that nice?
[6:33]For you.
[6:34]Like that in and of itself speaks volumes, right?
[6:37]And so we all have to be just so aware of that, which obviously we all know.
[6:42]But like the examples that you use and like by putting ourselves in your daughter's shoes
[6:46]when somebody makes one of her hair or something, like I'm like, you know, my heart is
[6:50]breaking it with, I have four kids of my own.
[6:52]So like all of your examples, like, I don't know, just touched me right where, you know,
[6:58]I think that's that is the magic of moms, right?
[7:03]We put ourselves right in that moment with our own kids and we feel that for other people's
[7:07]kids.
[7:08]That's why I think we are the ones that can really make the changes for our kids to make
[7:15]the changes in the world.
[7:17]Because every mom that I've talked to that has started reading the book, they say the
[7:21]same thing.
[7:22]I was like holding my breath when you're telling the story.
[7:25]Or I was in that closet with you when you're on your floor crying.
[7:28]I felt all of that.
[7:30]And I want us to use all those feelings to now say, what do we need to do to change things?
[7:35]What do we need to do to make sure our children, our children that stand up for others
[7:40]that are creating these spaces up along in the world.
[7:44]And what is my job and my response, Billie, to make sure that happens.
[7:47]Oh my gosh, when you're son, when you couldn't find your son and like you didn't tell
[7:51]the reader soon enough, I was like, oh my gosh, is she going to tell, is she not going to
[7:55]tell us what happened?
[7:56]And then, of course, you didn't like you closed the chapter perfectly, but I was freaking
[8:00]out.
[8:01]Like, what happened?
[8:02]Is he okay?
[8:03]Yeah.
[8:04]But also, even the example of your bootcamp class, when you're working out with a bunch
[8:07]of women and then at your final Fiesta, you meet the trainer's children.
[8:13]And I think it was the trainer's children said that said very racially disparaging thing
[8:19]right in front of you.
[8:20]And everybody was just responded with silence.
[8:23]And so you point out, like, there's a difference between them not saying something racist,
[8:28]but by not sticking up for you or by not speaking out about it, you're not being anti-racist,
[8:34]right?
[8:35]That's still a form of it.
[8:36]So you have to be the one who says, like, wait, what?
[8:39]What did you just say?
[8:40]Like, that's not okay.
[8:41]And just in that one example, like, that's like the whole book on anti-racism right there.
[8:45]Yeah.
[8:46]Yeah.
[8:47]That moment I felt alone, I felt silence, I felt isolated, and if one person would have
[8:55]just even just reached out and touched my hand in that moment, I would have felt like
[8:59]I had an ally and nobody did anything.
[9:02]And honestly, you know, I had grown to really care about all of these people.
[9:08]And honestly, I think they're all good people.
[9:10]But in the moment when you're in the trenches, you need somebody more than a good person
[9:15]because good people is sometimes it's a passive term, right?
[9:19]That you don't do the harm, you don't hurt people, you don't bully.
[9:24]But when we meet people who are allies or progesters, people around you, these are the people
[9:30]who really support you, where there's some action behind what they're feeling and how
[9:34]they support you.
[9:36]Wow.
[9:37]Yeah.
[9:38]I mean, it's hard in these social settings.
[9:40]I think some people just don't know what to do.
[9:43]Not that that excuses it.
[9:45]I think often when we're disappointed by other people's behavior, we assume that they
[9:50]know the right thing, but don't do it.
[9:52]And sometimes I just don't know that people, and maybe this is not coming across the
[9:57]way, I mean it, but it just, I feel awful.
[10:00]Well, often not just in situations involving race, of course.
[10:03]This is in like when you talk about somebody who's passed away or, you know, even my
[10:07]daughter's saying like, what if I cry at school and like someone makes fun of me?
[10:11]Well, that's like there, that's because, you know, they're an eight year old kid.
[10:14]They might not know how to handle that situation.
[10:17]They might not have the skills they need.
[10:19]And that doesn't mean you should be embarrassed, right?
[10:21]That's because the other person lacks the skills to cope with your grief or you're this
[10:27]or this, you know.
[10:28]So I think a lot of times, you know, it's up to the other people.
[10:32]It's, I don't know.
[10:34]Anyway, it's easy to feel alone.
[10:36]Yeah, yeah.
[10:37]That's a good point because that's why it's so important that we have these dialogues at
[10:41]home, right?
[10:42]Yeah.
[10:43]Because there are moments that you're just like, what is the right thing to say?
[10:47]How do I show up for them?
[10:49]And that thought you do nothing, right?
[10:52]And I say that the worst way, the only wrong way to really do anti racism or allyship
[10:59]with anything, like you said, it's not just about race, it's about any social issue
[11:03]or identity that we hold is to do nothing.
[11:07]Like if somebody would have just touched my hand, I would have not felt alone, right?
[11:11]If somebody would just sit next to me, it would have made me feel like there were some solidarity
[11:16]there.
[11:17]So sometimes it's the small gestures that you make.
[11:20]Yeah.
[11:21]The other thing is I would try to teach my kids to not worry about getting it right, but
[11:28]more about taking action.
[11:31]Because we're going to get it wrong sometimes, especially when we're being allies for a group
[11:36]of people or community that we are not marginalized in.
[11:41]And so we have to work through that.
[11:43]We have to work through how to get it right or how to get it better every time that
[11:47]we're showing up.
[11:48]And that takes practice.
[11:50]I love that you have like the whole chart, like are you marginalized?
[11:53]Yes.
[11:54]You know, multiple choice quizzes essentially like, well, race, gender, they're all these
[12:01]ways.
[12:02]It's just such a narrow category of that, like, unmarked completely un-marginalized
[12:07]right away you frame it.
[12:10]And everybody always thinks about basically race, race, unrace, but we all carry these
[12:15]multiple identities.
[12:17]And within those, we have some areas that we are not the dominant power as described
[12:24]in the United States, right, because it's all socially constructed in another country
[12:29]or another space or another time.
[12:31]These may not be the marginalized or dominant ways of seeing people.
[12:36]But currently right now, we all carry these identities that some of us are marginalized
[12:42]in some.
[12:43]And then we have other identities where we really hold more power.
[12:45]And so if we can break those down to look at them as just part of who we are, nothing
[12:50]to feel guilty about, nothing to be said about, nothing to be angry about, but the privilege
[12:55]is something that you have, whether you did something great or did something poorly, right?
[13:01]It's just the way the system is right now.
[13:04]And so if we can take those identities and really look at them.
[13:08]And I said, do it with your kids too.
[13:10]Let's look at this, you know, because we need to know where we can be of service to others
[13:15]based on the identities that we hold that have more power.
[13:19]So true.
[13:20]We tell me more about the rocks system, ROCKS capital.
[13:25]Yes.
[13:26]So that's kind of like the foundation of social justice parenting.
[13:29]These are kind of ways that you can move through your parenting, having these things like
[13:33]top of mind.
[13:35]So the R is for reflection, which often isn't one that parents want to skip, right?
[13:39]Because it requires you to dig a little bit.
[13:42]It requires you to tell yourself the truths about your childhood, about your experiences,
[13:47]about your own thoughts, stereotypes, biases, fears, all those things.
[13:52]So you have to do some reflecting in order to be able to really show up for your kids in
[13:56]an honest, authentic way.
[13:58]And then the O is for open dialogue.
[14:00]And that's kind of what we've been talking about.
[14:03]Having these conversations with their children, I'm being honest when you don't know the answers
[14:07]saying, I don't know the answers or when they come to you with their natural curiosity
[14:12]is how are you facilitating that or are you shutting it down?
[14:16]Because it's something that you don't want to talk about.
[14:19]So having these open dialogues constantly in your home, the C is for compassion.
[14:25]And I look at it on three levels and look at it in terms of self-compassion, which is
[14:29]sometimes very hard for moms, right?
[14:31]But we need to show our kids that we can do that to teach them to do the same.
[14:36]So looking at it from self-compassion to showing and modeling compassion for your children
[14:42]in the home, like what happens when they make mistakes?
[14:45]How do we respond to those kinds of things?
[14:48]And then when we teach them that compassion in the home, how do we take it out into the
[14:52]community and into the world?
[14:54]And then the next one is kindness, same things, right?
[14:57]It's I look at kindness as compassion and action.
[15:01]So we feel these things and now what do we do about them?
[15:04]And then the last one is social engagement.
[15:08]So how are we being activists around the topics that are important to us?
[15:12]And although I have the chapter on anti-racism, this is about any social issue that's out
[15:18]there.
[15:19]You know that is important to your family or that can spark you into taking some actions.
[15:24]Yep.
[15:25]I love it.
[15:26]I love all the times where you ask us to do assignments as we're meeting, you know,
[15:30]and you're like for the self-reflection, like, right, five cents is about yourself.
[15:35]Like how hard was that?
[15:36]And I was like, oh, that's not hard for me at all.
[15:38]I can see that being a challenge for other people.
[15:40]Yeah.
[15:41]It's nice to have a framework.
[15:42]I feel like no matter how much time we've all individually thought about parenting and even,
[15:47]you know, you're pointing out that like to mom has become a verb instead of just a noun.
[15:52]It's always nice to have a framework to know what, you know, that it's all fitting into
[15:57]something that is going towards some sort of larger goal as opposed to just getting through
[16:02]every day.
[16:03]And, you know, even the ability to put ourselves in our kids' shoes, you know, somebody
[16:10]was asking me, lately, like something about parenting.
[16:13]And I was like, well, I think having all these kids, like, now I realize how different
[16:17]they are.
[16:18]And so I often just take the time to be like, well, you know, what is it like for it?
[16:24]Like, no, like this kid is definitely not going to do this activity or, you know, it would
[16:29]be terrible if somebody told me to turn the TV off right now too.
[16:31]Like, I hate it when people do that.
[16:34]So just like having that extra step, I feel like it was such a long way with kids.
[16:39]And I feel like that's exactly what you were talking about and all your different, you
[16:42]know, examples with your own kids and your one son who doesn't like sports and all of
[16:46]that.
[16:47]And listen, between the two of us, we have nine children.
[16:51]I know.
[16:52]I was thinking that.
[16:53]They're all so different.
[16:54]They're all so different.
[16:55]Yeah.
[16:56]And you can't pair one the way you pair the other one because they are uniquely made
[17:02]with their own unique personalities and challenges and strengths.
[17:05]And as a parent, we have to recognize that what works for one is not going to work for
[17:11]the other.
[17:12]And the more we try to shove them in this kind of sameness box, we don't give them the opportunity
[17:16]to to to blossom as their best selves.
[17:20]I think that's one of the most fun parts of parenting is watching new things and new interests,
[17:26]bubble up, particularly ones that like, I don't have myself.
[17:29]And I mean, like, now, of course, I can't think of a good example, but I don't know.
[17:33]Like my daughter sowed the other day.
[17:34]She like, she's like, does fashion design on the side.
[17:37]It's like not even a thing for her.
[17:38]She's like, oh, I think I'm going to make this blanket into a skirt and she likes sowed
[17:41]the whole thing.
[17:42]And I was like, what?
[17:43]Wow.
[17:44]I'm like, where did that come from?
[17:47]Right?
[17:48]Like, I didn't like try to encourage that talent in any way.
[17:52]She didn't take a sewing class like just came out of nowhere and that's what's like so neat
[17:56]about our kids.
[17:57]They're like these sort of boxes that, you know, you have to like unwrap a layer and they
[18:01]just like surprise you.
[18:03]And so they just need space to do it.
[18:05]Yeah, exactly.
[18:06]Yeah.
[18:07]You just need space to do it.
[18:08]Oh my gosh.
[18:09]This kid too in your class, I'm blanking on his name, who you even Ruben.
[18:13]Oh my gosh.
[18:14]That story was also amazing.
[18:16]Oh my gosh.
[18:18]You keep in touch with him.
[18:19]Do you know what?
[18:20]I have to do everything.
[18:21]Yeah.
[18:22]I regret that so much.
[18:23]We did like the first, I follow him the first probably three or four years after he
[18:27]left me, but I was in Georgia and once I moved back to Florida, I didn't.
[18:32]But I think about him often wondering where he is, what's going on with him, man, yeah.
[18:39]I moved every time I think about him.
[18:41]You changed that his whole life, right?
[18:43]You understood and saw him and encouraged him and like your example of how he navigated
[18:51]the bus and the store and how he shot for his family and all of the skills he was showing
[18:56]and how the other kids like sat on the carpet that day with like their, you know, their
[18:59]mouth.
[19:00]Oh my gosh.
[19:01]Rubens out there doing all this stuff and here we are, you know, like drawing a picture
[19:04]of a tree or something.
[19:05]Anyway, it was really amazing and just shows the power of all of us showing up for
[19:09]little kids.
[19:10]Right.
[19:11]Yeah.
[19:12]So that is the power of radical love, right?
[19:14]Yes.
[19:15]That's all I had.
[19:16]That's all I had.
[19:17]I didn't know what else to do.
[19:18]I wasn't trained really to, you know, back then we weren't trained to deal with all
[19:22]of the nuances of children, you know, in that way.
[19:27]And all I knew how to do was love and I just loved him and he eventually, you know, understood
[19:32]that it was just love and I was just going to keep showing up and that his behavior had
[19:36]nothing to do with who he was and that was, yeah, that was probably my most moving moment
[19:43]as an educator that we really were able to get through a lot of the things that he had
[19:48]in the control over and just through love.
[19:50]Yeah.
[19:51]Well, I'm so impressed that you wrote the book in the midst of the pandemic and I totally
[19:56]understand the found time with not having to move the kids around to different.
[20:00]places. That was amazing. And now that it's back, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't get it.
[20:04]And I promise myself, I'm not going to fill up my schedule. The way it was, but you never
[20:08]make good changes. But, you know, when you have a lot of kids, all they have to do is have
[20:12]one activity and all over the place. Exactly. I'm like, you're just going to do gymnastics.
[20:17]Now it's like, exactly. So we can meet you. I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, like,
[20:24]I thought it would make it easier. But anyway, so what where do you go from here? How do you turn this
[20:28]into like a nationwide movement that like everybody gets behind and like all that good stuff.
[20:35]What next? Yeah. So right now, I am, you know, on the book tour where it's mostly virtual at this
[20:41]point now because of the pandemic and speaking at different places. So I'm hoping to keep doing that.
[20:47]And I guess the great thing about being virtual speaking in places that I probably would not have
[20:51]been able to go to otherwise. Right. So that's been great. And then I have like a social
[20:57]social experience and program that I have a six months program that I've done that I'm doing.
[21:02]I think what I'm going to do is turn that course into something that
[21:06]because right now, the way it is is people have to show up every month. Like, I give them
[21:10]materials to work with. I give them worksheets. And then they have to show up in the month
[21:15]where that's being hard for parents sometimes would tie me. Right. So I think I'm going to
[21:19]package that in a way that it's kind of on your own. And then maybe, you know, once a month,
[21:24]I just do an open Q&A that anybody who wants to show up and show up. So that is like an extension
[21:29]of the book. And I don't know. I'm hoping people will pick up the book and we can see what happens
[21:34]after that. I'm open. This is, you know, my passion. I'm going to still be on my Instagram account
[21:40]where I do a lot of my thoughts and teaching and learning. So that will continue once I get past
[21:47]the book a lot of time. Yeah. So I'm passionate about this and I plan to keep working.
[21:53]Well, let me know how I can help and, you know, amplify your efforts because I, you know,
[21:58]I just totally related to so much of what you're saying and want to help. Like, this is like an
[22:06]this is the way to make societal change. Right. This is the best way to do it. And it's reaching
[22:12]the people who create the kids. You know, so anyway, to the extent that I can help, let me know.
[22:17]Okay. I appreciate that very much. Okay. All right. Well, Tracy, Dr. Baxley, thank you so much. And
[22:24]oh, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? I always ask that. I almost forgot.
[22:28]Right. Right. Right. Even if you don't know, like, I have a friend who's trying to write a book and
[22:32]I keep telling her, don't worry about the how like where it's going to go and the title just
[22:38]write, you know, get your thoughts on paper. Don't let anybody kind of box you in while you're
[22:44]doing the writing process. Don't worry about editing. Just getting all your thoughts down on paper
[22:50]really is the key to keep it going because that's how I got started really. I didn't know what I
[22:55]was doing. I didn't know where it was going to go. But every time I had thoughts, I wrote them down.
[23:01]And how will happen? But it's, it's, you have to focus on getting you on paper. So not getting
[23:08]into the logistics of it or you're about just giving the love that's inside out on paper.
[23:15]It would be so neat if all of our nine kids somehow got to meet each other at one point.
[23:19]And that really has. I don't know. What's the age range of your children?
[23:23]Mine are younger than yours, but I have twins who are 14 and then eight and six.
[23:29]Okay. And yours are ones. Mine are 21 to 12. So I have my last two are in your age group. Yes.
[23:37]Yes. That's is a fun time.
[23:42]I know. I know. Those, those late teens and early 20s are.
[23:47]Yeah, my nearly special.
[23:50]Well, at least that's a good thing about having all the ages is when you're like completely
[23:54]overwhelmed in one age, you can like fall back on another age just for a minute to like,
[23:58]yes, yes. I told my 13 year old son. He's kind of like that. He's always been the one that
[24:05]needed to say, okay, look at the calendar who's picking up who he was always the hardworking kid.
[24:11]Like if we're raking leaves, he's the one that's the last one to come in. And so, you know,
[24:17]he's getting to that 13 year old lake that like, hey, I don't want him to do this. And I'm like,
[24:23]not you. I just need to say the same.
[24:28]I started having one issue with like the one kid who never gives me issues. And I'm like,
[24:31]no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You cannot do not you. Not you. Yes. Not you.
[24:39]You're my sure thing. Anyway.
[24:42]All right. Well, anyway, lovely chatting with you. Thanks so much.
[24:45]Thank you. All right. Take care. Okay. Bye.
[24:50]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms. Don't have time to read books.
[24:53]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens and at moms. Don't have time to read books.
[24:59]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[25:03]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the
[25:08]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[25:13]now trim music.