Denise Kiernan, WE GATHER TOGETHER: A Nation Divided, a President in Turmoil, and a Historic Campaign to Embrace Gratitude and Grace
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[1:06]Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!
[1:08]I hope you're all having an amazing, amazing day filled with lots of food and joy and friends and family
[1:15]and whatever you are thankful for coming to the fort.
[1:18]So, thanks for tuning in to this episode about Thanksgiving themed books.
[1:25]Denise Kiernan is the author of We Gather Together, a nation divided, a president in turmoil, and a historic campaign to embrace gratitude and grace.
[1:34]Denise is an author, journalist, and producer.
[1:36]Her latest book We Gather Together arrived in winter 2020 and her last book, The Last Castle.
[1:42]September 2017 was an instant New York Times bestseller in both hardcover and paperback and was also a Wall Street Journal bestseller.
[1:50]She's also the author of The Girls of Atomic City, which is a New York Times, Los Angeles Times, an NPR bestseller, and has been published in multiple languages.
[1:59]She lives in North Carolina.
[2:02]We actually did not talk about The Girls of Atomic City or the others because I was so focused on this book.
[2:07]So sorry about that.
[2:08]Welcome Denise!
[2:09]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss We Gather Together, a nation divided, a president in turmoil, and a historic campaign to embrace gratitude and grace.
[2:18]How'd I do?
[2:20]Perfect, dramatic reading.
[2:22]No, that was great.
[2:23]And, you know, it's funny as a writer, you know, sometimes the whole subtitle thing becomes this like giant group thing.
[2:29]And, you know, sometimes to remember my own subtitles, I literally have to pick up the book.
[2:35]So you did great. You were fabulous.
[2:38]Thank you. I appreciate it.
[2:40]Okay. Can you please tell us news when your book is about?
[2:43]Yes. So my book we gather together is a really a new way to look at giving thanks and the holiday we have come to know as Thanksgiving.
[2:53]And it's sort of there are three elements to the book in my mind.
[2:57]There is the evolution of this holiday we come to know as Thanksgiving going from, you know, way, way, way back on other continents all the way up through the 21st century.
[3:10]Then there is the story of this amazing woman, Sarah Giuseppe Hale, and the Civil War and how this woman lobbied to make Thanksgiving and established codified celebration that would take place the same day every year throughout the country, which it wasn't prior to her efforts.
[3:31]And then the third part is really to me what the lynch pin of this entire book is and that is about gratitude.
[3:39]And just the core element of all of this is gratitude and thanks to the last 10 20 years.
[3:48]We now have this incredible amount of research about how important a gratitude practice is not just for how you feel.
[3:56]And, you know, we've all heard gratitude drills and things like that, but also there is neuroscientific evidence now that it is good for your emotional health, your physical health, your blood pressure, you know, all of these sorts of things.
[4:10]So, so to me, the gratitude piece was a really, really important part of this.
[4:15]It was really fascinated by this aspiring author turned mom turned, oh my gosh, crusader piece of the puzzle.
[4:24]I didn't even know this is embarrassing to say, maybe I shouldn't even say that I didn't even know who she was and I had not, I didn't know her story ahead of time.
[4:30]It's not embarrassing to say, I mean, what's funny is when you do one of my first really big, you know, really big books that took off was the girls of atomic city, which is about these women who were working on the Manhattan Project, but that their knowledge.
[4:42]And people would say the same thing to me, they'd come up and say, I feel so bad, I didn't know about this.
[4:48]Still, you know, I came across it and then started looking more deeply into it.
[4:53]So yeah, I, you know, I didn't know what I had learned about Sarah just set the hail this, you know, widowed mother of five who becomes basically the most powerful editor in the United States of America in the 19th century.
[5:08]I didn't know much about her came across her and I thought, I have to keep looking into this woman, but I didn't just want to do a biography of her because it's just, I just don't write biographies.
[5:19]So that's, I had to wait till the other pieces that I just described kind of came together, but I did know that I wanted her to be, you know, a real part of this story because she is fascinating.
[5:33]And you read about Sarah just up a hill's life, not just for lobbying to establish Thanksgiving, but her life as an editor, her life as a fundraiser, her life as a poet as a poet.
[5:44]Oh, of a little something we have, we know as Mary had a little lamp, which, you know, really caught on as, you know, this, this is, this is a woman who helped popularize Christmas trees in the United States.
[5:57]This is a woman who said women should wear white when they get married.
[6:01]She put she was, this is somebody who helped introduce the word lingerie to American readers.
[6:07]One of the first publishers of Edgar Allen Poe, I mean, this is someone who was like the OG influencer right.
[6:16]I mean, if she were alive today, she would have a gazillion Instagram followers.
[6:23]Everybody would be looking to her about not just what to wear, but what to read and, you know, all of these sorts of things, but one of the greatest things about her is that she used so much of her influence to raise up others and to bring attention to other people's work.
[6:39]And so again that she embodied a lot of the gratitude embrace that I was hoping this whole book would be able to capture.
[6:48]What did you set out to do with this book?
[6:50]Like was this start as I want to do something about Thanksgiving in general, or did it start with I found this amazing character or did it start with like what was your what was happening in your life that made it a book.
[7:03]No, that's a great question because as a writer, I always have to go with my curiosity. So these books, they in our lives for a while. So you have to have a topic that just kind of grabs you.
[7:14]Writing is also so much about what you don't want to say or don't need to say as much as what you do want to say and do need to say.
[7:25]How far can be tricky sometimes because you kind of want to shoehorn everything in there. What I wanted to do was present a my curiosity about hail was massive her partnering essentially with Abraham Lincoln to establish a day of thanks in the middle of the Civil War.
[7:46]You want to talk about a time when it's hard to get everybody to kind of come together and get on board, you know that fascinated me. So I knew I wanted to say something about that, but I also knew I wanted to look at where we have come as a country with this particular
[8:03]day and how it has evolved over time and how it can continue to evolve. I think so I really wanted to present an entirely new Thanksgiving story in a way, an accurate one one that's based in fact and one that I think is kind of inspirational and inclusive and that can sort of take us.
[8:25]You know, in a new more inclusive wonderful gratitude center direction with the holiday and as I, as I talk about in the beginning of the book, you know, I love, I love Thanksgiving it is easily my favorite holiday.
[8:39]And but you know, I wanted to feel good about I want to feel good about Thanksgiving and there's so many wonderful inspirational stories and fascinating stories related to this holiday over time and throughout history and I just really wanted to share that with folks and you know have just kind of zero in on that that thank you part of Thanksgiving, which is something that everybody can get behind it really is a unifying idea.
[9:10]Totally agree. Yes, and the food doesn't hurt.
[9:13]And the food does not hurt and boy did she like writing about food. Oh my gosh. So, in addition to all of you know her editing and everything. She writes. She wrote a novel.
[9:23]She has almost an entire chapter dedicated to a Thanksgiving meal and how you should set the table. Very. I mean, like Martha Stewart stepped aside, you know, and I love Martha.
[9:34]I mean, this woman was all about it in the 19th century and would share it with her readers and give you know hosting suggestions and you know just in the magazine as well as in books she wrote.
[9:48]It was it was incredible and I love that too. I'm a I cook a lot. I mean, I cooked throughout the year, but it's it's a massive Thanksgiving. I really get into my Thanksgiving for sure.
[10:00]I am, is gravy a dish?
[10:04]I think gravy can be a dish, right?
[10:06]It may well be.
[10:07]I make, let's just say I make gravy a dish.
[10:10]gravy is, if gratitude is what brings this entire book
[10:14]together, gravy is what brings the entire Thanksgiving
[10:18]meal together for me.
[10:19]I can actually, I also really like cranberry sauce.
[10:23]I've made the same cranberry sauce for years now.
[10:25]It's a tweak on a really old, on an old bone
[10:28]recipe.
[10:30]It's cranberry zinfandel sauce.
[10:32]So yeah, I mean, you know, and as long as the zinn is there
[10:35]while you're cooking, you know, you put a little of this
[10:37]cranberry sauce, put a little of meat, and it's delicious.
[10:41]And I actually like when the gravy interacts with the cranberry sauce.
[10:45]It makes me very excited.
[10:46]And my favorite gravy right now that I've made the last
[10:49]couple of years is a Madeira gravy.
[10:52]There's a theme here.
[10:53]There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a theme here.
[10:56]It's delicious.
[10:57]It's just so delicious.
[10:59]Anyway, don't get me started on gravy.
[11:00]I know.
[11:01]I feel like I just want to hear you talk about food.
[11:03]This is like, you know, it's like lunchtime.
[11:04]I'm like, tell me more about it.
[11:06]But that was, I mean, honestly, that's, that's one of the things
[11:10]that was so wonderful about, you know, writing this very
[11:13]uplifting book about, you know, Thanksgiving during
[11:16]Spanish flu and how they handled it.
[11:18]When I wrote that and when I titled the book we gathered
[11:22]together, all that, this was done before COVID.
[11:26]So when I was going back in editing and copy editing with my
[11:31]publisher, all of the sudden, you know, the phrase social
[11:34]distancing is taking off while I'm editing a book called
[11:37]We Gather Together and check the, the section on Thanksgiving
[11:41]during the Spanish flu took on this whole other level of, of
[11:47]meaning and the idea of trying to find things to be
[11:50]thankful for when times are going really, really, really,
[11:56]badly became all the more important to me.
[11:59]So it was, it was such a unique experience as a writer
[12:04]because, you know, as you know, when you conceive of something,
[12:09]you get the idea for it.
[12:11]The world is, your life is in one particular place.
[12:15]As you're writing it, your life is in another place.
[12:18]As you're promoting it and the book is out in the world, that world
[12:22]may look very different than the world in which you
[12:25]came up with this idea for a book and the life of a book
[12:29]is very different, which is why sometimes you can, it's so fun to pick
[12:32]up a book you read a long time ago and see how it affects you
[12:36]differently. It's like, you know, you can't step into the same
[12:38]river twice. You can't read the same book twice really,
[12:41]kind of, because you bring so much of yourself to it.
[12:45]And you do that as a writer and you do that as a reader.
[12:48]So, but boy did the world change between the time that I
[12:53]like, you know, was writing this book and then, you know, was out in the
[12:56]world talking about it. It was, yeah, it was quite, quite an
[13:00]experience.
[13:00]I interviewed somebody else during the pandemic and her
[13:03]book, oh my gosh, I'm going to blanken her on the name of
[13:06]it was, it was all about gathering. I thought it was called gathering.
[13:10]I have to look it up. I'll send it to you.
[13:12]It sounds familiar. Yeah, yeah, I'd love to see that.
[13:14]Anyway, but it doesn't matter. But I'd love to your point
[13:16]about rereading books and how we bring different things because often
[13:20]authors say things like, well, it's not my book anymore. I've put it
[13:23]out into the world. It's yours to interpret and do what you
[13:25]will with it in your mind. But yes, I've also had the sensation.
[13:30]I had this one book that I read in college and for years, I would tell
[13:33]everybody it was my favorite book. It was called drinking a love
[13:35]story. And I guess I was just like drinking too much back then or
[13:38]something. Anyway, I reread it recently and I was like, I mean,
[13:41]it's really good. And I love Caroline Knapp and she's
[13:43]fabulous author. And I was really sad when she passed away even though I
[13:46]didn't even know her. But it didn't hit me hard the way it had before.
[13:50]And it just made me think like, what was going on in my mind
[13:54]so much at the time that this was the book that I felt I needed right then.
[13:57]Do you know what I mean? Yes. Oh, yeah, because books come into your life.
[14:01]They're like little people. I mean, they come into your life at different
[14:05]times for different reasons. I mean, I remember one of the first
[14:09]times I'd love William Faulkner. One of the first times I read Faulkner.
[14:12]I was 14 and it was for English class because my English teacher was obsessed
[14:16]with him. She had a Faulkner sweatshirt. What the nerd in me,
[14:20]I would what I would give her a Faulkner sweatshirt today.
[14:23]But we, you know, we used to love to tease her and I went back and read Faulkner,
[14:28]you know, like seven years later, like right out like the summer
[14:31]right after I graduated college. And I thought, oh my god, this man is amazing.
[14:38]And it was it was just interesting. Now, obviously, he's a big difference
[14:40]pain of 14 year old in the 21 year old. But I it was one of those times when I
[14:45]thought it's it's really interesting and always worth it to kind of go
[14:48]back to those that you really, really like and give them another read and
[14:53]see how they see how they affect you for sure. Yeah.
[14:57]Chris, that's not helping books sales much. But you know,
[14:59]I know, that's it. We say there's like, oh, I'm fine. I'm going to
[15:03]reread Warren piece. No, no, my God, I can't happen.
[15:08]Go. Yeah, I know. But, you know, our house like, no, I'm just, it's just a library.
[15:14]It's everywhere. I love them. They're they're wonderful, such wonderful objects.
[15:18]And where do you live? Where do you live? And you're not on the road.
[15:22]Yes, when I'm not in the Hampton and I live in Asheville, North Carolina,
[15:26]which is a lovely, a lovely place. And I was in New York City for many years,
[15:34]cut my teeth at the village voice and lived in New York City for a long time,
[15:38]lived in Rome for a while, where I struggled to find cranberries as I
[15:43]talk about in the book, which was terrifying for me. But yeah, I live in
[15:48]Asheville, North Carolina. It's in the western part of North Carolina in the
[15:51]mountains. And it's lovely. It's a big creative community. A lot of writers,
[15:57]yeah, run, rash lives there, that Charles Frazier who wrote a little something called
[16:02]Col Mountain. Charles lives there, Elizabeth Castobel lives there. I mean, there are a lot of
[16:07]a lot of writers there, a lot of creatives, a lot of musicians, a lot of artists.
[16:11]My husband has is a producer and he has like a music arm of his business. And his buddy,
[16:16]Dan, just met now I'm remembering this whole thing, met Leslie at my book party. Anyway,
[16:20]yes. Yes. And so, so Leslie connected, Dan and I. Oh, great. So, Dan and Anna,
[16:27]you guys have to hang out with Denise and Joe. My husband, Joe is also a writer.
[16:31]You guys all have to hang out in Asheville. It was actually a classic, I love that Leslie brought
[16:37]us together because she's just lovely that way. But it was a classic Asheville moment really. I
[16:42]mean, it's one of those places that is its own center. It's of the universe in a sense.
[16:50]You know, it's it's really interesting how many times I'll mention it and somebody'll say,
[16:54]oh my god, a friend of mine just moved there. Oh my god, a friend of mine was, you know, it's
[16:59]it's a good spot. Have you been? I have not got to come you got to come down. Yeah,
[17:04]you got to come down. Got to come see Billboard house. I would like to. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.
[17:09]So, what are you working on now, by the way? Well, actually related to this next year,
[17:15]a picture book. Oh, I'd all be give thanks is going to come out that is going to be a kind of a new
[17:25]Thanksgiving nonfiction Thanksgiving story for very young people. And also adapting we gather together
[17:33]for middle grade readers as well. So, if a family wants to do a family read, the parents can have
[17:40]the adult version of we gathered together that you just held up. And then, you know, the middle
[17:44]schoolers can have their young reader edition. And then the little ones can have a little picture
[17:48]book. So, I'm really excited about that picture book's done. So, I just saw some sketches, which is
[17:54]really exciting. But I'm researching my next sort of big narrative nonfiction book, which is tentatively
[18:02]titled obstinate daughters. And that comes from a colonial era newspaper cartoon from across the pond.
[18:14]They were talking about the difficulty that England the crown was having taking the Charleston
[18:20]area and Sullivan's Island in particular. So, this cartoon they put in the paper was a woman's head
[18:29]in profile. And her hair was up, you know, very elegantly. But in her hair were cannons and
[18:36]muskets and all of these sorts of things. And it said, Miss Carolinas Sullivan, obstinate daughter
[18:43]of the colonies or something like that. And it was really, really cool. And so, I'm basically
[18:49]looking at pre-colonial and colonial era, unite America. But through the eyes of women, people of
[18:57]color and indigenous peoples and sort of kind of retelling the story of the founding of America
[19:03]from that perspective. And then I myself as an obstinate daughter. And retracing some of their
[19:12]footsteps and looking at what their legacy is like today. So, there is going to be this travel
[19:17]log thread to it. So, I'm really, I'm really excited about it, actually. I love them.
[19:23]I can see that being very kind of gift too. Yeah. I have lots of people I would give that to.
[19:30]History aside, I'm sure it's going to be amazingly well written, but even, you know, title alone.
[19:37]So, what advice would you have for aspiring authors? The advice I always give and people feel
[19:44]like they've heard it before, but I'm still challenged following it. So, I always feel like it's
[19:48]valid to share. Allow yourself to write a really crappy first draft. And it is so hard not to edit
[20:00]of while you're going through things.
[20:02]And I really honestly believe
[20:04]that you have got to give yourself permission
[20:07]to write a really bad first draft
[20:09]so that you get it done.
[20:11]And then the really fun part begins revising
[20:15]and tweaking and shaping.
[20:17]And I try to think of writing as like a skeleton,
[20:20]like get the bones down, you know.
[20:23]Then go back through, put a layer of skin on.
[20:27]Then, you know, go back through for another pass.
[20:31]I usually like to do about three passes
[20:33]before I turn it into an editor.
[20:35]And, you know, trust it up a little, but not too much.
[20:38]And then, you know, as you're finalizing things,
[20:41]you do what Coco Chanel supposedly always did.
[20:45]It's like, you know, look in the mirror
[20:46]and the first thing that catches your eye,
[20:48]take it off, because it's probably a little bit too much.
[20:50]So you've got to let that go, then go, pair down.
[20:53]So you get the bones, get the skin
[20:57]that holds it all together, dress it up,
[20:59]and then Coco Chanel it.
[21:01]That's my approach to writing
[21:03]and revising and editing and in all seriousness,
[21:08]also be careful about when you share your work.
[21:11]Right every day and be careful when you share your work
[21:13]and with whom you share your work.
[21:15]You want people who are gonna be honest with you,
[21:19]but that have your best interest at heart.
[21:22]And that is a very, it is a harder thing to find
[21:26]than you might realize.
[21:28]And it's okay to have a good, strong critique.
[21:32]I get nervous if I don't get a good, strong critique.
[21:35]I want things to be better,
[21:38]but that critique needs to come from a place
[21:41]of really wanting the best for you as a writer
[21:46]and for your work.
[21:47]And just keep at it, every day.
[21:49]And judging from your cooking ingredients,
[21:52]perhaps add some wine while you do it.
[21:55]Yes.
[21:58]I actually don't.
[22:00]Is that as bad as I will?
[22:03]I will drink while I cook.
[22:04]I do not drink while I, while I write.
[22:06]Okay.
[22:07]Yeah.
[22:08]I do it.
[22:09]I gotta, I gotta also, I, you know,
[22:11]I am one of those wake up first thing in the morning
[22:14]and write people, which I also,
[22:16]I don't tell people they have to do that
[22:18]because I think everybody gets into their own routine
[22:21]and has their own way of doing things.
[22:23]And as long as you're doing it consistently
[22:25]and it's working for you, do that.
[22:26]Don't let anybody else or someone like me say
[22:30]you have to write in the morning.
[22:31]I like writing in the morning
[22:32]because it's before all the, you know,
[22:34]ping and ding and email and all that stuff
[22:37]starts to get in my head.
[22:39]And I had the, I had the purest relationship
[22:43]with the work before all that,
[22:45]all of the rest of life kicks in.
[22:48]So that's what I would say.
[22:50]Be nice to yourself.
[22:50]It's hard to be nice to yourself as a writer sometimes,
[22:53]but try and be nice to yourself.
[22:54]That's right.
[22:56]Try.
[22:56]Right.
[22:57]Awesome.
[22:59]Well, I will be thinking of you having your gravy
[23:01]and, you know, cranberry sauce.
[23:03]Well, I dig into my 18 servings of mashed sweet potatoes
[23:08]with marshmallows and stuff.
[23:09]Oh, yes.
[23:10]Yes.
[23:11]That's corn syrup too.
[23:12]That's also very good.
[23:13]It's very good with the gravy.
[23:15]You've got to slap some gravy on top of those marshmallows.
[23:18]It goes with everything.
[23:20]Yeah, buy the meal together.
[23:22]I'll put some on, I'll put some on Instagram.
[23:25]I'll be sure to post some things.
[23:26]You should start just bottling up your gravy.
[23:28]You could do a side, side business.
[23:30]You could actually sell a bottle of gravy
[23:33]with the book as a little promotion.
[23:36]Not a bad idea.
[23:37]That would be awesome.
[23:39]Yes, that's your back there.
[23:40]That's right.
[23:41]Paperback, paperback, paperback, paperback,
[23:44]the gravy addition.
[23:46]Yes, gravy chain.
[23:47]OK.
[23:49]All right, take care Denise.
[23:51]Thanks so much.
[23:52]You used to be.
[23:52]Bye-bye.
[23:53]Bye-bye.
[23:55]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't
[23:57]Have Time to Read Books.
[23:59]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibyowens
[24:02]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:04]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibyowens.com
[24:06]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:08]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:11]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[24:12]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[24:14]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:16]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.