Dr. Inger Burnett-Zeigler, NOBODY KNOWS THE TROUBLE I'VE SEEN: The Emotional Lives of Black Women
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[1:09]Dr. Inger Bernett Ziegler is the author of Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen the Emotional Lives of Black Women.
[1:15]Dr. Bernett Ziegler is a licensed clinical psychologist and associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Fineburg School of Medicine at Northwestern University.
[1:25]She has two decades of clinical experience helping people with stress, trauma, mood, and anxiety conditions and interpersonal strain.
[1:32]In her clinical practice, she promotes holistic wellness through mindfulness and compassionate self-care.
[1:37]Inger's scholarly work focuses on the role that social determinants of health play in mental illness and treatment, particularly in the Black community.
[1:44]She is an advocate for normalizing participation in mental health treatment and ensuring that all individuals have access to high quality, evidence-based mental health care.
[1:53]Inger has written dozens of articles and other publications on trauma and mental health in the Black community, and lectures widely on research about barriers to access and engagement in mental health treatment, mindfulness, and strategies to improve mental health treatment participation in outcomes.
[2:07]She is an active contributor to the public discourse on mental health, and she has been featured in the New York Times Time Magazine and the Chicago Tribune.
[2:15]She received her undergraduate degree in psychology from Cornell University, her doctorate in clinical psychology from Northwestern University, and completed a postdoc fellowship at the VA and Arbor University of Michigan.
[2:26]She is a proud lifelong Chicagoan.
[2:28]Welcome. Inger, thank you so much for coming on Momstone. Have time to read books to discuss. Nobody knows the trouble I've seen the emotional lives of Black women.
[2:36]Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure.
[2:39]So can you tell listeners a little bit about what the book is about and what inspired you to write it? When did you decide you wanted to do this?
[2:47]The process behind it, all of that. And then I want to talk about your own family.
[2:52]Sure. Sure. So the book really grew out of an article that I wrote in 2018 for the New York Times called the Strong and Stress Black Woman.
[3:02]And in that article, I talk about a woman that I was working with in therapy and I talk about my grandmother and the many strengths that they had, kind of the achievements that they had accomplished in their lifetimes, both being professional and raising families and also simultaneously.
[3:20]Dealing with trauma that had not been addressed in that trauma having a really significant impact on not only their physical health but also their mental health.
[3:31]And so that was really the seed of the book.
[3:34]This book, nobody knows the trouble I've seen as an integration of personal story stories of friends and family as well as clients that I've worked with in therapy and really showing how they present themselves to the outside world that strength that resilience that grit to nasty that allows them to kind of
[3:54]push through and overcome everyday challenges, but also all of those other things that by kind of beneath the surface, the stress, the trauma pregnancy trauma, childhood trauma relationship trauma.
[4:07]And so along with those stories, there is an integration of research about various mental health conditions as well as clinical coping strategies for how to deal with stress in trauma and live, help your life.
[4:22]Which by the way, like everyone in the universe could use right about now, I feel like really great tips.
[4:29]I mean, this is the most stressful environment.
[4:32]I feel like this pen to anyway.
[4:34]So widely applicable advice and actionable steps, which is always fantastic.
[4:40]You know, it's so funny.
[4:41]I just, I don't know if you've come across this book by Jane Allen or that's her pen name.
[4:45]Oh, you're with it.
[4:46]Yes.
[4:47]Yeah.
[4:48]So her real name is Janique and we recently did a podcast after which I was like, you have to join my team for Zippy books.
[4:53]So now we work together and we just do the Q&A for book club.
[4:57]And it's funny because exactly what you're saying, she decided to do infection, right?
[5:02]Like she had the same desire, the same goal of like there was all this stress.
[5:07]And she was like just so everybody's so tired.
[5:10]It was just so much to hold on to.
[5:12]She decided to approach it with fiction.
[5:14]And you've decided to go at it more with studies and with your experience.
[5:18]And yet you're like coming at two sides of the same coin.
[5:22]And as a reader, they're just like different ways.
[5:25]You can immerse yourself in a, you know, fictitious persons lived experience.
[5:29]We can hear about your experience.
[5:31]You can report on it.
[5:32]So it's just, it's sort of a nice compliment to get like the 360, like feeling of what it's like.
[5:39]Because, you know, nobody reading, you know, we all have different experiences in life.
[5:44]And like, I want to know, I want to hear what it's like for, for everybody.
[5:48]And for you and what it's specifically like for black women, which you, I mean,
[5:52]this is like a handbook, right?
[5:53]You're like, I get you.
[5:54]I hear you.
[5:55]This is all about us.
[5:56]This is what I want to tell you.
[5:58]Read it.
[5:59]Learn from it.
[6:00]Like here you go.
[6:01]So in parts I felt like, well, I'm sorry, I'm just going to read it too.
[6:04]You know, obviously I'm not.
[6:06]I'm sorry.
[6:07]I'm not your target audience.
[6:08]But I found it so interesting and informative.
[6:11]And, you know, we're all women.
[6:13]You know, I mean, like there's still so many commonalities.
[6:16]And yet the differences are so important to learn about and hear about.
[6:21]And, you know, without, anyway, I'm rambling.
[6:24]I'm sorry.
[6:25]Let me let you talk.
[6:26]No.
[6:27]Okay.
[6:28]I appreciate you saying that.
[6:29]And indeed the target audience was for black women.
[6:32]But I do think it's, you know, widely applicable to women to anyone who has experienced, you know, stress, depression, anxiety for mental health professionals for those who are supporting women or others that are struggling day to day.
[6:48]And so, you know, I really appreciate you saying that.
[6:51]And I couldn't agree more in terms of, you know, the ways that fiction is approaching this same topic.
[6:59]I was writing.
[7:00]I deeply immersed myself in other fiction.
[7:03]I was addressing some of the same issues around black women.
[7:06]Queenie is a book that's coming to the top of my mind.
[7:09]And so I loved the way that, you know, fiction can tell stories.
[7:13]And although these are, you know, not real stories, they're still about, you know, real experiences.
[7:19]And that's something that I really wanted to channel in the book as well.
[7:24]because I think that that's what really helps people to relate and to feel seen, as you said.
[7:31]Oh, while you're both out promoting your books, you should do an event or something together.
[7:35]That's why two cents there.
[7:37]No, that would, that would be great.
[7:39]I've been following, you know, the success of her book and, you know, really appreciate the work that she's doing as well.
[7:45]I definitely, I'll put you in touch afterwards.
[7:47]Okay.
[7:48]But back to your book now.
[7:50]There is this one section.
[7:51]So you wrote a lot about your family, your mom, your grandmother, like all of it, even beyond that, how everybody sort of came to be.
[7:59]And you wrote about it in a beautiful way too.
[8:02]So I don't know.
[8:03]I just really love this one passage.
[8:04]I'll read the paragraph before it too, but which is more statistics.
[8:07]And this is an example of how you meld, you know, statistics and research with honestly more like literary writing and at the same time.
[8:15]So you said eventually when she was more than 50 years old grandma moved out of public housing and returned to school through a program offered by her employer to earn her bachelor's degree Roosevelt University at the time only 8% of black women in the United States had a college education, which by the way, I could not believe that number.
[8:32]I just couldn't.
[8:33]In the early 1970s when predatory lending, redlining and restrictive covenants were rampant in Chicago.
[8:38]She purchased a ranch house facing the train tracks in the previously Dutch community of Roseland.
[8:43]White flight was at its peak as black folks rapidly began to occupy the neighborhood.
[8:47]With every visit I made to grandma's house.
[8:49]She planted the seeds of my self-worth and willed to me her expectations for greatness.
[8:54]They were steeped in the Lipton's lemon tea that we sweetened with packs of equal and sipped out of pink porcelain tea cups.
[9:00]We drank and held our pinkies out while speaking in fake British accents.
[9:04]She and I sat in perfect manner in her ornate wooden dining room chairs, which swallowed my petite frame and left my feet dangling beneath the table.
[9:11]As we delicately placed the tea cups down on the saucers, we pursed our lips together and flooded our eyelids mimicking the air that we imagined rich and important people had.
[9:20]Be still and stop kicking grandma said teaching me how to be proper dignified.
[9:25]That's one of my favorite passages. I'm so glad you picked that really.
[9:30]I loved it.
[9:31]Really fond memories of my grandmother as that that passage kind of shows of her teaching me how to show up in the world as a as a little black girl and as a black woman.
[9:44]How I should present how I should behave acting with, you know, dignity and respect.
[9:50]And more importantly, knowing that I was deserving of all of the goodness that the world had to give me that I should.
[10:00]have claimed that as my birthright.
[10:03]So thank you for being a package.
[10:05]Well, so amazing that she instilled that in you.
[10:07]I mean, that's really special.
[10:09]She's a very proud woman.
[10:11]And, you know, in a book I talk about her being,
[10:14]you know, really my first example of a strong black woman
[10:17]and she, you know, carried herself with a lot of pride.
[10:21]She was very kind of strong in her spiritual foundation,
[10:26]believed in doing things properly.
[10:29]And, you know, she was able to accomplish a lot in her life,
[10:33]kind of going back to school and having a great career
[10:36]and owning a home.
[10:37]And I talk in the book about this big blue Cadillac
[10:40]that she drove, which was, you know, really her pride and joy.
[10:44]But as I also mentioned, there was also so much about her life
[10:48]that I didn't know about until I was much older
[10:52]and even more that I learned about through the process
[10:55]of writing this book.
[10:57]So interesting.
[10:58]Oh, my gosh, she seems like she was a pretty awesome lady.
[11:01]I hope that she's hanging out with my grandmother, you know,
[11:03]that's fair.
[11:04]I think they would get along.
[11:06]My grandma was a piece of work.
[11:08]So you also identify, well, not you.
[11:11]I mean, it comes from you draw attention to what joy,
[11:14]degree, wrote about in her 2005 book,
[11:17]Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome.
[11:19]And you said that black people experience the syndrome
[11:21]as adaptive survival behaviors due to generations of oppression
[11:24]of enslaved people in their descendants.
[11:26]And she suggests that patterns of behavior reflective
[11:29]of post traumatic slave syndrome include poor self-esteem, feelings
[11:33]of hopelessness, depression, suspiciousness
[11:35]of negative motivation of others, propensity for anger
[11:38]and violence, and internalized racism.
[11:40]These maladaptive thoughts and behaviors originated
[11:43]as survival strategies in the context of slavery followed
[11:46]by systemic and structural racism and oppression
[11:48]and have continued to be passed down through generations
[11:51]long after they have lost their contextual value.
[11:55]And then you talk about epigenetics and all of that.
[11:57]So tell me about this syndrome, because people do not,
[12:00]this is not like a widely,
[12:02]this is not in the newspaper every day.
[12:03]Let's just say, all right, people don't use that term
[12:05]and inherited trauma, yes, but it obviously applies
[12:08]to a lot of situations that people have experienced trauma in.
[12:11]So tell me a little bit more about that
[12:13]and the way you see that affecting things.
[12:16]Sure, so you know, she describes it
[12:18]and she gives this title of Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome,
[12:22]but I think we really can understand it more broadly
[12:25]as a trauma response.
[12:26]Not only an individual trauma response,
[12:29]but an intergenerational trauma response
[12:31]that shows up in how we see ourselves,
[12:34]our self-esteem, our self-worth.
[12:36]It shows up in our mood and emotions that sense of fear,
[12:40]that sense of being on edge,
[12:43]sense of suspiciousness that something bad is going to happen
[12:47]that's rooted in either a direct experience with trauma
[12:51]or a close experience with trauma
[12:53]and friends or family or neighborhood environment.
[12:56]And it also shows up, you mentioned the next paragraph
[12:59]in which I talk about epigenetics
[13:00]by being passed down through the genes
[13:03]where those who have experienced a trauma that can leave it.
[13:07]It's suspected that that can be even imprint on the genes
[13:10]that then pass down to future generations
[13:13]and impacts their physical and mental health,
[13:15]even if they have not had their own direct exposure
[13:19]with a traumatic event.
[13:21]And I really wanted to highlight that
[13:22]because I think so many people that have experienced trauma,
[13:26]reference the statistic that an estimated eight out of 10
[13:29]black women have experienced a trauma
[13:32]and a fraction of that go on to have traumatic stress symptoms
[13:36]or PTSD, but it's unrecognized.
[13:39]And when it's unrecognized or unidentified,
[13:42]they were more vulnerable to passing on these behaviors,
[13:46]passing on these thoughts about ourselves,
[13:50]even in our language with how we talk about ourselves
[13:52]and talk to our children and talk to our family members.
[13:56]And it's really the acknowledgement and recognition
[13:59]that experience that then empowers us to be able to
[14:03]break that cycle and alter behavior,
[14:06]get the support that we need in a very intentional way.
[14:10]You know, just on my podcast, it just came out yesterday.
[14:13]I think although I interviewed him a while ago,
[14:14]there's a man named Jesse Thistle,
[14:15]who is an indigenous person of Canada.
[14:19]And he was talking exactly about what you're saying
[14:21]in that you have to have your trauma witnessed.
[14:26]And before you can get past it,
[14:28]it has to be acknowledged and then dealt with.
[14:32]But if it's just out there and nobody is addressing it,
[14:35]then you can't get past it.
[14:36]And what you're saying, it's like all not just you,
[14:38]but like it ripples, right?
[14:40]Like if you don't get it addressed now,
[14:42]then you're passing it down.
[14:44]So there's even more urgency to like getting people
[14:47]to pay attention and be like, oh, I see, right?
[14:50]Because you're actually really affecting
[14:52]the mental health of all of your,
[14:54]I mean, there's like quite a loaded responsibility there.
[14:57]Sure.
[14:58]And you know, avoidance is a trauma response.
[15:02]That is a symptom, a clinical symptom in and of itself.
[15:06]And so it's understandable that we would want to avoid thoughts
[15:11]and reminders of difficult, painful experiences,
[15:16]whether that be broadly, you know,
[15:18]experienced a slavery, whether it be some more close experience
[15:23]of abuse or domestic violence or what have you.
[15:26]But is that turning toward or, you know,
[15:29]as clinicians say kind of approaching the trauma
[15:32]holding space for it, acknowledging it,
[15:34]developing the tolerance to be able to talk about that pain
[15:39]rather than pushing it down and dismissing
[15:42]and avoiding it that really creates the landscape
[15:45]for healing and to be able to bypass it.
[15:49]Well, you know, as I said before, a lot of people,
[15:51]I feel like have a lot of healing to do right now
[15:53]in particular.
[15:54]And this is, I think, a really good reminder
[15:56]that the things that fester, you know,
[15:59]my old therapist used to say,
[16:00]they'll eventually come outside ways.
[16:02]You know, yes, it will come out in some way.
[16:04]I say, you might as well just like deal with them.
[16:07]It is.
[16:08]And you know, we're talking about kind of the challenge
[16:11]of right now, the pandemic and everything else
[16:14]that's, you know, been going on in the world.
[16:16]But the stillness that the pandemic forced upon
[16:21]a lot of people has been really uncomfortable
[16:23]for a lot of folks that deal with their trauma
[16:26]by being busy, by being distracted, by being out
[16:29]and doing things, you know, all of the time and, I mean,
[16:33]the world is opening up a little bit now,
[16:35]but in that period of time when people were really forced
[16:39]to kind of be with themselves and not have as many,
[16:43]you know, other things going on
[16:45]as they may have typically had,
[16:47]that was difficult for a lot of folks
[16:48]because that that gives room for the thoughts
[16:51]that perhaps we were not paying attention to
[16:53]at another time.
[16:54]If only they started a podcast every single day
[16:57]and we could do seven new businesses and whatever.
[17:01]This is another way to do it.
[17:03]If you, that's trying to avoid all your own stuff.
[17:06]I'm just saying, you know,
[17:09]everybody has their own co-fix steps.
[17:11]Saying busy is definitely a common one,
[17:14]but a lot of people and women for sure can relate to.
[17:19]I like how a lot of you pose the lot of questions
[17:22]to the reader, right?
[17:23]Instead of just being prescriptive,
[17:24]like you actually, it's like, you know,
[17:26]hallmark of a good therapist, right?
[17:28]You're like asking open-ended questions and all that, right?
[17:31]You know, how did I receive love from my caregivers?
[17:34]What were my early models for intimate relationship?
[17:36]What wounds do I still carry from childhood
[17:38]or past relationships?
[17:39]And then you talk about, you know, the trauma bond
[17:42]and how all of that, you know, comes down for generations
[17:45]and everything.
[17:46]And, you know, if you want to not avoid,
[17:49]you can, you're like inviting people
[17:51]to sort of get into it here.
[17:53]I feel like all of this is an invitation.
[17:56]And I think that that's an important kind of concept
[17:59]to hold in reading the book
[18:01]or if one is to go into therapy
[18:04]because often there's this idea of what is,
[18:06]what are they gonna make me do or think about this kind of
[18:10]pressure and as a therapist, you know,
[18:13]it's important to go at the pace
[18:16]that the person that you're working with allows.
[18:19]So I actually had a close friend talk to me
[18:22]about that passage.
[18:23]She was reading the book, really successful,
[18:26]highly ambitious black woman that has struggled
[18:30]in relationships.
[18:32]And she was saying that she read that passage
[18:34]and she was asking herself those questions
[18:37]and it got uncomfortable.
[18:39]She, she, she keeps coming back to it, right?
[18:45]And so all of this is like planting seeds.
[18:48]You might notice the discomfort, move away
[18:53]and then you can come back, you know, as you're ready.
[18:56]So like what is your life like when you're not helping
[19:00]easily and other people in your practice
[19:02]by writing books and, you know, lifting people up
[19:04]and all of that?
[19:05]What do you do when you're not working
[19:06]and like what's your story and what do we not know
[19:09]from the book?
[19:10]So, you know, in terms of work,
[19:13]I'm a practicing psychologist.
[19:14]Most of my effort is in research focused on mental health
[19:18]in the black community.
[19:20]I'm also deeply involved in mental health advocacy
[19:23]at the city and the state levels do a lot of volunteer work
[19:26]with various mental health and healthcare organizations.
[19:30]And aside from all the mental health stuff
[19:32]and work stuff, I really love theater.
[19:35]I love the arts.
[19:35]I love yoga, I love helping wellness.
[19:38]I love restaurants and museums and taking it
[19:42]with my friends.
[19:44]I love rest.
[19:46]I preach rest clinically but I like non-dealing.
[19:52]And I think that there's a lot of benefit
[19:55]of just being still without having kind of a goal
[19:58]if you will attached to it.
[20:00]that can be rejuvenating and just fulfilling
[20:03]when we lead otherwise quite, quite busy lives.
[20:06]So that's something that I definitely like to practice
[20:09]for myself as much as I can.
[20:12]I like that.
[20:13]I like that because you've given it a purpose.
[20:14]So now you've given rest
[20:17]something you can accomplish.
[20:19]Yeah.
[20:22]Check that off.
[20:23]Yeah, rest.
[20:24]Have I rested enough?
[20:25]I don't.
[20:26]Like every two weeks, I'm like,
[20:27]I should probably take a little bit of time to rest.
[20:29]You know, this is good for me.
[20:31]Okay, good.
[20:31]I did it.
[20:32]Yeah.
[20:33]And what about writing?
[20:35]When did you know you wanted to turn this into a book
[20:39]and do you have plans for more books?
[20:41]And do you like to write to journal
[20:43]and just express your feelings type of writing to?
[20:47]Yeah.
[20:48]So as a kid, I really liked journaling.
[20:50]As I moved into my professional career,
[20:53]I had lots of thoughts and opinions
[20:55]about many things.
[20:56]And my dad always said you should write about that.
[20:59]So he really kind of planted the seed
[21:02]in terms of the meaningfulness that can be gained from writing.
[21:07]I will say in a couple of years before I started working
[21:09]on the book, I became really intentional
[21:12]about writing up as particularly as an academic.
[21:16]I thought it was really important to be able to share the knowledge
[21:20]that is kind of cultivated in the academic space
[21:24]that often doesn't get out into, you know,
[21:26]the general population.
[21:28]And so I write a lot about trauma.
[21:30]I write a lot about the impact of the violence in Chicago,
[21:34]about Black women's mental health, about, you know,
[21:37]social and political issues and how that is related
[21:40]to mental health.
[21:42]Now I am still writing.
[21:44]I just write thoughts.
[21:46]I have my little notebook here
[21:49]whereas ideas kind of pop up to me.
[21:51]Let's see, let's see.
[21:52]Hold it up.
[21:53]Oh, I love it.
[21:56]There is beauty and symptoms of my teenage daughter
[21:58]would snatch that right out of your hands.
[22:00]So yeah, that's a good one.
[22:02]So I'd like just to be kind of, you know,
[22:05]have a place where as thoughts come to me,
[22:07]I can write them and then make something, you know,
[22:10]more meaningful out of them later.
[22:13]And I notice that that's the best process for me.
[22:17]And in terms of a next book, you know, right now,
[22:19]I'm really trying to be in this moment
[22:21]and hold space for this book.
[22:24]And I'm really enjoying kind of these kinds of conversations
[22:27]hearing about how the book has impacted people.
[22:31]But I do have a little seat and that seat is around
[22:35]Black women's joy and the role of Black women's joy
[22:40]in our survival and our existence in the world.
[22:44]So my definitely think it's important
[22:46]to give some space and attention to that as well.
[22:49]Tell me about this cover.
[22:50]Yeah, so this is an artist in Africa,
[22:54]her name is Sungai Melinga.
[22:56]And I was really drawn to her work
[22:58]because when I read the description of her work,
[23:01]it was really closely aligned with what my goals were
[23:06]for the book.
[23:07]So really thinking about how Black women show up
[23:10]in various spaces, the ways that we're seeing and not seeing.
[23:14]And when I read that description, I was like,
[23:16]this is the message that I'm really also trying to convey.
[23:20]And aside from just thinking it was beautiful,
[23:22]this particular piece showing the relationship
[23:25]between two Black women looking out, touching each other,
[23:29]but not looking at each other.
[23:31]This is what I got out of it when I looked at the piece.
[23:34]It's okay, we'll do a little Rorshach test for you.
[23:37]It's absolutely right.
[23:39]This is Rorshach analysis of the piece,
[23:42]but I just loved it so much.
[23:43]So I love it too.
[23:45]She's another person I would really love
[23:47]to be in conversation with if the opportunity ever allowed,
[23:49]I think there's a lot of synergy in our work.
[23:52]Interesting.
[23:53]Well, maybe for your next book.
[23:55]Yeah, they can be jumping up and down.
[23:57]Maybe they'll be smiling.
[24:00]Yeah, like just make these women smile a little bit.
[24:05]Talk about joy.
[24:06]I'm kidding.
[24:06]All right, awesome.
[24:07]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[24:10]Oh, wow.
[24:11]That's the first time I've been asked that question.
[24:13]I will share the advice that I read and really took
[24:17]to heart, which is that writing is a practice
[24:22]that you have to do consistently.
[24:25]I think that there's this myth that you wait to write
[24:28]until the idea comes to you or the inspiration comes to you.
[24:33]But I really found a lot of benefit from just continuously
[24:36]doing and actively engaging that muscle
[24:39]and then worrying about the editing
[24:41]and making everything beautiful later.
[24:44]So just write, write, write.
[24:49]And are you reading anything good lately?
[24:50]Then I'll leave you alone.
[24:52]Yeah.
[24:52]So right now I'm reading Ashley for somebody's daughter,
[24:56]which I had her on this podcast.
[24:58]Yeah, yeah.
[24:59]So I'm really loving that.
[25:01]Yeah, so a lot of good stuff out there.
[25:03]Yeah, there's a lot of great stuff out there.
[25:06]OK, amazing.
[25:07]Well, it was so nice to get to know you
[25:08]and I'll put you in touch with Janique.
[25:11]And yeah, thank you so much.
[25:13]And thanks for letting me be the interloper
[25:16]in this book that wasn't intended for me, but I learned a lot.
[25:20]And I loved it, so congratulations.
[25:22]I appreciate it so much.
[25:24]Thank you for having me.
[25:25]OK, take care.
[25:26]Bye bye.
[25:26]Take care.
[25:28]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[25:30]to Read Books.
[25:31]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[25:34]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:37]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[25:39]and sign up for my virtual book club
[25:41]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:43]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[25:46]for the Sound Editing.
[25:47]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:49]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.