Lily King, FIVE TUESDAYS IN WINTER
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[0:37]Hi, hi, hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:41]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:47]Here's a little snippet by one of the authors from the anthology.
[0:50]My name is Jean Quack, and I'm thrilled to have contributed to Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:58]My essay is called Mama, Am I Pretty?
[1:03]And what I really don't have time for is putting on makeup.
[1:09]Lily King is the author of Five Tuesdays in Winter.
[1:12]She is the New York Times best-selling author of Five Novels, The Pleasing Hour, The English Teacher, Father Thrain, Ephoria, and Writers and Lovers,
[1:21]which was one of my favorite books, by the way.
[1:23]Her work has won numerous awards, including the Kirkest Prize, the New England Book Award for Fiction,
[1:28]the main Book Award for Fiction, a Whiting Award, and the Barnes and Noble Discover Award.
[1:33]She has been a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award, and an alternate for the Pen Hemingway Award.
[1:39]She lives in Portland, Maine.
[1:40]Hi, Lily.
[1:41]Thanks for coming on, Mom.
[1:42]It's no time to read books.
[1:44]Excuse me.
[1:45]Thank you for having me.
[1:46]So nice to have you back on.
[1:49]As you know, Writers and Lovers is one of my all-time favorites.
[1:52]I talk about it all the time, whenever given the choice.
[1:55]Anyway, I could not wait for this collection of short stories, so I'm delighted that you wrote another book and that we can talk again.
[2:04]Thanks so much.
[2:06]Okay.
[2:07]So would you mind telling listeners what was the impetus?
[2:10]I know a lot of these stories or some of the stories had been written, some of them are new.
[2:14]Tell me why you decided why a short story collection, why these stories?
[2:18]I don't know.
[2:19]Just tell me about the whole thing.
[2:20]I think the why is that they just started piling up.
[2:24]I just started, you know, having enough to really think about, you know, collecting them together and putting them out.
[2:32]I've been writing them, you know, they probably span like 20 years.
[2:36]There's not the early, early stuff.
[2:38]But I think maybe the first one was written.
[2:43]Maybe even as early as the first draft was in 98 or 99, something like that, right around what my first novel came out.
[2:51]And I mean, I really had been writing short stories since I was a junior in high school because I was lucky enough to have a creative writing class where we had to do that.
[3:00]And we had to write a three and a half page story every single Monday morning on his desk by 8 a.m.
[3:06]So that, and I took that class one semester in junior year and one semester senior year.
[3:11]So I got a lot of practice with short stories even before I got to college.
[3:15]And then I took short story fiction writing straight through in college and then wrote them in grad school.
[3:20]So, so they are kind of, you know, the most natural element for me to swim in.
[3:28]And I feel like, and, and it's funny that that people don't really know that.
[3:34]And that I, you know, I haven't published any before this except for, you know, a few in journals.
[3:40]And I think, I think I would say about them that they're the structure.
[3:44]It was really interesting to kind of try to come up with a structure for the collection.
[3:49]And I would say that there are kind of three pillars in this book.
[3:52]And one is the first one creature.
[3:55]And then timeline and then man at the door, because those three have narrators who become writers.
[4:02]And I think they're kind of talking to each other.
[4:05]And I feel like they're in some ways, you know, holding up the book in a way.
[4:09]And I thought about making them just a trip deck and having them separate from the rest of the stories.
[4:15]But then I realized they're quite integral to all the other themes in the book.
[4:18]So we kept them kind of spaced out.
[4:22]I loved in creature.
[4:24]That's the creatures that went with the babysitter, right?
[4:27]Yes.
[4:28]I loved, you know, and she's like up in her turret and laying on the window seat and, you know, starting to write.
[4:34]And then you can like see that it's coming that she's this is what's coming down the pike for her and how she's observing everything.
[4:40]And the craziness in the family and all of that.
[4:42]I just love that.
[4:43]I also love when in books you reference like that the character references she wants to be a writer as she's becoming a writer and you're reading it.
[4:51]Yeah. And that was a real surprise to me.
[4:53]It's so interesting that you say you can see it coming because I did not see it coming.
[4:57]I didn't see it coming until I wrote that sentence.
[5:00]You know, that and something like, you know, which is which is what I eventually became like a writer is what I have anything.
[5:07]And that surprised me so much.
[5:09]I remember writing that sentence. I remember exactly where I was. I was across town from here.
[5:13]And I wrote that and then I kind of, you know, stopped and I was like, Oh, did I just do that like leap in time and, you know, and make that.
[5:22]I just, I didn't expect it even though she was in this turret. She was reading Jane air.
[5:26]Yeah. And writing her friend.
[5:28]These letters that was a delightful surprise to me.
[5:32]And those moments are really what I love about writing fiction.
[5:35]And most is that I couldn't have planned for that. You know, it just, there it was.
[5:40]And then it just made me like the story so much more and care about her and understand her and then we went on from there.
[5:46]Especially because her friend starts making fun of her for some of the tone.
[5:50]Yeah.
[5:51]So later I loved that too, because it's so, you know, the self deprecating writer, you know, already.
[5:57]Right. Right.
[5:58]And then her writing gets her in trouble. Right.
[6:01]And, you know, and, and so there are all kinds of consequences to writing down your feelings.
[6:07]Yes, for sure. Yeah.
[6:09]That's how actually I had my first article published. Well, I was about her age and I wrote down all these feelings I had in my mom found my music and it was like, you have to send us into a magazine. And that's how I sold my first article to 17.
[6:23]Wow.
[6:24]That's so cool. Good for your mom. I know. I look back and I'm like, that's so cool, because I don't think I would do that for my kids. Like, I mean, magazines are now what they were, you know, but I don't know. Yeah, it was cool.
[6:37]But I know. That's really impressive. Yeah. Anyway, so tell me about which one like which ones are the most recent like which ones of these came most recently versus the ones that are like, which is the most recent one that you wrote.
[6:50]I think it's either creature or timeline. I wrote them right around the same time. And I think I went back and forth with them. But I think timeline is probably the very most recent.
[7:00]My gosh, Ethan from. Oh, I remember that.
[7:05]I wrote timeline on that typewriter right there. No way. And I had just I just gotten it. You know, I had done a book deal.
[7:12]And I was like, I'm going to buy a typewriter. You know, I just really wanted like a adorable little manual typewriter because I never had one except, you know, maybe in my family when I was like nine years old or something.
[7:24]And I started that story. And I just, I felt like it was something different. You know, I felt like that machine pulled out something different from me. And I love, you know, I usually write by hand.
[7:39]I mean, I eventually put everything on the computer. But, but right that that that manual typewriter pulls out of me a different part of my brain. Like, accesses like some different little note in there that that's really exciting to me. I don't use it a lot.
[7:53]But I love, I love what comes out when I do.
[7:56]Wow.
[7:57]How crazy to think that different ways of writing bring out different characters.
[8:03]I mean, really different chance from different, you know, the witches chance from different thing, you know, bring out different.
[8:10]Yes.
[8:11]No, it's very true. It's very true. I sometimes feel like it's in the machine, you know, it's like it's in that little black machine, you know, and then it just comes out.
[8:21]I have my grandmother's typewriter like right there on the shelf. Now I'm wondering if I were to start using it.
[8:28]I just just humor me.
[8:30]I'm going to have to get new ink or whatever. I don't even know if they sell that anywhere. Do they still sell type?
[8:35]There's a, there's a place in North Carolina. If you Google, you know, old typewriters North Carolina, you just tell them I will do that right after we.
[8:45]That's a really great.
[8:47]A great place to do your business.
[8:50]Oh my gosh. That's awesome.
[8:53]What is it about the short story? Like, I know you said that's your favorite form. Like, what is it? Is it that you have to tell the whole like, well, I should just say, I should leave it open at it and not guess.
[9:04]You know, for me, it's all about precision. I mean, it's a, it's an incredible challenge because you really can't make a mistake in short stories, you know, and novels are much more forgiving.
[9:16]novels. You can, you can put all kinds of crap in there and people don't mind.
[9:22]But short story, you really, you know, it's got to be like an arrow, you know, it's got to move like an arrow.
[9:30]But you don't know what the target is really any more than you do with the novel. You just, you know, you just go and you have to dump everything that doesn't move it forward.
[9:43]And, and I like that challenge. I also like, it doesn't work. It's okay. You know, you have not wasted three years of your life researching writing this book that doesn't work.
[9:54]And so in that way, it just, you know, it's more like an affair than a marriage.
[10:00]and more, it's a lighter feeling in some ways
[10:05]to just play.
[10:07]And then if you feel like you got something,
[10:10]it's just a bonus and a surprise.
[10:13]And did any of your novels come from short stories?
[10:15]My first one came from two short stories
[10:18]that I'm mushed together.
[10:19]And because I didn't wanna come out
[10:22]with a collection of short stories first,
[10:24]I was really, really broke
[10:25]and I had heard that you get paid more if you sell a novel.
[10:29]So, and I liked novels and I wanted to try it.
[10:32]And I had this one short story
[10:35]that had the plot of a girl,
[10:37]a young, you know, like a 19 year old,
[10:39]having a baby first sister.
[10:41]And I liked the plot.
[10:42]But then I had this other story that was set in France
[10:45]and I really loved the language.
[10:47]I loved the voice and the tone.
[10:49]And so weirdly, I just, I was,
[10:51]I just mushed them together
[10:52]and started writing this novel.
[10:53]It took me like nine years, but that's what I did.
[10:57]Wow.
[10:58]And of course it reads like short stories.
[10:59]I mean, it's completely common novel,
[11:01]but you can tell those chapter short stories.
[11:04]They are, it's not a novel.
[11:06]And I thought, I don't know if I'll ever really write
[11:08]a real novel, you know, where you leave something hanging
[11:11]and then pick it up.
[11:12]And now I feel like I'm more comfortable in the novel.
[11:15]And so it was really fun to go back
[11:18]to this early form and just kind of be there with that.
[11:22]And while you worked on this,
[11:25]like are you also working on another novel?
[11:27]Like was this in tandem with another project?
[11:29]Or did this take?
[11:30]Yeah, well, I mean, I was,
[11:32]yeah, my short stories are always usually now.
[11:36]I write them when I'm taking a break from a novel.
[11:39]When a novel is just becoming too sticky
[11:41]and too difficult and too frustrating.
[11:44]And I just wanna have fun, you know?
[11:47]And so that's how most of these were written kind of,
[11:50]well, somewhere in between,
[11:52]somewhere like warming up.
[11:53]Certainly timeline, definitely.
[11:57]I think I didn't know it at the time,
[11:59]but I was gearing up to write writers and lovers.
[12:02]I didn't think about it,
[12:04]but you know, obviously there are similarities in there.
[12:07]She's a waitress.
[12:08]She wants to be a writer.
[12:10]It's a little earlier than writers and lovers begins,
[12:13]but there are definitely similarities.
[12:15]And it surprised me that I wrote about that
[12:19]that I wasn't ready to write a full-length novel about it.
[12:22]But I think timeline kind of got me there.
[12:26]And what about when in the Dardone?
[12:28]Tell me about this one.
[12:29]So with that, I wrote when I was writing Father of the Ringing
[12:33]and that novel, Father of the Ring,
[12:35]is really, was really, really emotional for me to write.
[12:39]And I had to take big breaks, like long breaks where I thought,
[12:42]I'm never, ever gonna write that book anymore, ever again.
[12:47]And so I wrote a couple, I wrote,
[12:48]when in the Dardone, and I wrote Hotel Seattle.
[12:51]And that came from one sentence that a guy said to me,
[12:57]in a pizza restaurant, like years before,
[13:00]when my kids were really little and we went out to pizza,
[13:04]my husband and our two kids, and we ran into this guy
[13:07]that I had known when I was like 15, 16 years old.
[13:10]And I really barely knew him.
[13:11]He was kind of in the same social circle in this summer place
[13:16]where I had gone when my mother married a man, but a house there.
[13:20]And so we were, I mean, I had hardly had any conversation.
[13:24]I really didn't know him well at all.
[13:27]But I ran into him and we started talking.
[13:29]And somehow, he said that when he was, you know,
[13:34]a teenager, his parents had gone away for the summer
[13:38]and they'd hired two college kids to take care of the house.
[13:41]And he said, because I came with the house,
[13:44]they had to take care of me too.
[13:45]And then we were like, okay, bye.
[13:47]And I won't see him again for another 20 years or something.
[13:50]And I just remember that sticking in my head,
[13:53]just that one little image, you know?
[13:56]And then somehow, years, you know, probably five years after that,
[14:01]I sat down to register a story and that came out like that little thing.
[14:05]And then I mean, it's nothing based on him or his life
[14:08]because I don't, I know zero about his life.
[14:11]But I just went from there.
[14:13]And a lot of these stories are a little bit like that.
[14:15]Like they're just tiny, tiny moments.
[14:17]Like North Sea is a story about a mother and a daughter,
[14:20]German mother and daughter, and the mother slash father.
[14:24]I mean, the husband slash father has just died
[14:27]and they go on a vacation together.
[14:28]And when I was in Germany on this little German book tour
[14:32]that I was lucky enough to take for father of the rain,
[14:35]I met a bookseller and she had a daughter
[14:37]and they had a book store together.
[14:39]And she told, she said that every year they go
[14:43]to this place, to this island.
[14:45]I think she said the North Sea,
[14:46]but I have to actually don't even know.
[14:48]And they started going after her husband died
[14:51]and they had a horrible time and they go back every year.
[14:54]And I love that too.
[14:55]Like, it was like a little twist.
[14:58]Like we had a terrible, terrible, terrible time.
[15:00]The daughter was like, oh, god,
[15:02]did we have a terrible time?
[15:03]We go back every year.
[15:04]And I could never was able to work that into the North Sea.
[15:08]But it's in there in my head.
[15:10]But I couldn't work that detail in there.
[15:11]I never jumped ahead to say that they go back every year.
[15:14]But I just wanted to work out, okay, what was that like?
[15:17]Whoa, you know, what were their struggles
[15:20]at that moment on that island, you know, grieving
[15:24]but unable to help each other, you know?
[15:26]Wow.
[15:27]Well, I feel like just the act of having a short story
[15:31]collection out, I feel like there's this unspoken,
[15:35]like I am a real literary author
[15:37]if I have a short story collection at,
[15:39]like I feel like there's this whole like hierarchy.
[15:42]I'm just, you know, peeling back the onion
[15:45]to find out, right?
[15:46]Like it puts me like a collection of essays
[15:49]is totally different than a collection of stories.
[15:51]And like, do I mean, like there's this like,
[15:54]I don't know, almost not snobbery
[15:56]and certainly not from you,
[15:57]but just in the, you know, literary-ish world, you know?
[16:01]I don't know.
[16:02]Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
[16:03]I haven't really thought about that.
[16:05]I don't know.
[16:06]And we will see.
[16:07]Well, I will get a little bit more clout
[16:08]for having a real collection.
[16:09]Yeah, I think so.
[16:10]You get automatic, you get automatic extra clout.
[16:14]No, I think you need it.
[16:16]But you know, I think it's true.
[16:17]And you have, you know, to bring your cloud down,
[16:20]you also have an essay in my collection.
[16:23]I'm starting to have time to not bring my cloud down.
[16:28]No.
[16:29]My daughter just read that yesterday.
[16:31]When I was like, I showed that to you, right?
[16:33]I know, I showed it to you.
[16:35]Like I got permission from you to your daughter.
[16:38]Yeah, and she like had no real recollection
[16:41]of reading it before.
[16:42]And I was like, God, are they really, you know,
[16:44]but I'm on a bunch of shit.
[16:47]Anyway, was it okay with it?
[16:48]Yeah, she's all good with it.
[16:51]Well, I still think like, you know,
[16:52]when I got that essay from you and your document
[16:55]was like, for Zigbee or something,
[16:56]and I was like, this is so cool.
[16:58]Like that you would send me,
[17:00]that you would write this essay like for me,
[17:02]for not for this collection.
[17:04]Like it's just like blew my mind.
[17:06]I'm like, it's just so cool to have like somebody
[17:09]you so admire.
[17:11]And then have them like create something.
[17:14]It's just the coolest.
[17:15]Anyway.
[17:16]That is so kind.
[17:17]God, I was honored to be included in that.
[17:20]No, it was incredible.
[17:21]Anthology.
[17:22]I can't wait for everybody to read.
[17:23]Me too.
[17:24]I know.
[17:25]So you have so much going on.
[17:26]It's really exciting.
[17:26]So what big project, this sort of procrastination manual
[17:30]was that publicity is now probably eating
[17:32]into some other project.
[17:33]What else do you have cooking over there?
[17:36]Yeah, I am writing another novel.
[17:38]It has been, you know, it's been very kind of stop
[17:41]and start and fragmented.
[17:43]And I feel, you know, now I have this book coming out.
[17:46]And I just, as many vows as I make
[17:49]that I will write through my book tour,
[17:51]I just cannot, I cannot.
[17:54]So it's kind of just right here in a little notebook.
[17:57]And I will get back to it as soon as I can.
[17:59]But I'm trying not to feel terrible
[18:01]about not pushing it forward right now.
[18:04]But I keep on, the problem was stopping.
[18:06]is that I keep on getting ideas.
[18:08]So I've gotten two, three new ideas for new novels.
[18:11]And I'm just, I'm trying so hard now to be tempted.
[18:15]You know, because you're always kind of thinking,
[18:16]well, that would be easier.
[18:18]That would be easier.
[18:18]That would solve all my problems
[18:20]because then I wouldn't have to solve those problems.
[18:21]I could solve all the problems.
[18:23]But I'm really going to try to stick with this one.
[18:25]Okay.
[18:26]I won't hold you too.
[18:27]And if you change your mind,
[18:28]it's okay.
[18:29]You can cheat on that book by starting another book
[18:31]and not even tell us all.
[18:33]Exactly.
[18:34]Are you doing in person events or no?
[18:37]Yeah, I am, I am, it's weird.
[18:41]But I probably have six or something in person events.
[18:44]I haven't had one yet.
[18:45]But they're coming.
[18:47]That's exciting.
[18:48]I'm excited to have an audience again.
[18:50]It's just incredible to meet readers,
[18:53]talk to them, incredible.
[18:55]Yeah.
[18:55]I hear lots of people are out there.
[18:57]I know I asked you this before,
[18:59]but maybe you have a different answer
[19:01]or probably neither of us remember what you said last time.
[19:03]Although I should probably,
[19:03]I probably should have gone and looked it up,
[19:05]but I didn't have time to do that.
[19:07]What advice did you have for aspiring others?
[19:09]Oh, that's always a good question.
[19:11]You stop making excuses and write.
[19:14]And maybe there's someone out there
[19:16]who does not make excuses and really does write
[19:18]and is committed.
[19:19]But for every one of those,
[19:22]I think there are so many hundreds of others.
[19:25]And I was one of them for years and years and years.
[19:28]I think it's just, it's really hard to do the work.
[19:31]It's hard to do the work,
[19:32]whether you've never written a novel,
[19:34]whether you've written 10 novels, it just is hard.
[19:37]And what you, you know,
[19:38]discipline really, really is the biggest thing.
[19:41]And you just, you have to let go of the critic
[19:45]in your head that stops you from writing.
[19:47]And you can say that it's your full-time job
[19:50]and you can say that it's your kids
[19:51]and you can say that it's a gazillion different things.
[19:54]But really, what's stopping you from writing
[19:56]is that critic in your head.
[19:57]And if you can just ignore that voice.
[20:00]and just get the words on the page, you know,
[20:03]it's your only hope.
[20:04]It's your only hope.
[20:06]It is.
[20:07]I'm going to get the words on the page.
[20:08]There's another way around it.
[20:10]The best thing I feel like you said is that for you,
[20:14]short stories are just a way to have fun.
[20:16]I mean, that is the art.
[20:17]That's like a true writer.
[20:20]So I mean, you have to enjoy it, right?
[20:22]I mean, if it's not fun, there's a million other jobs.
[20:25]I don't know.
[20:26]I know it's just it is that is a question
[20:29]that I started to ask other writers
[20:31]letting interview them because I just I find it really
[20:34]confusing because I don't a lot of days writing
[20:37]a novel is not fun.
[20:38]It's just not fun, but it's satisfying.
[20:42]You know, even a bad day is satisfying because I was there
[20:46]and I tried and and that really is what's satisfying.
[20:50]Fun is another thing and I actually have a note
[20:55]on my wall right behind me that says have fun
[20:58]because that is a big commitment that I am trying to make
[21:01]both to short stories and to novels is just to really,
[21:05]really try to enjoy it.
[21:06]And of course, you know, it's just a great lesson
[21:09]for every day on this earth, right?
[21:12]To try and have fun to try to appreciate what you can.
[21:15]And I'm working on all those things.
[21:17]That's a great message.
[21:19]I mean, I could say the same for parenting.
[21:20]It's not always fun, but it is very satisfying.
[21:23]But some days they're terrible,
[21:25]but you're still building, you're still working on something
[21:28]collectively that will take on a life of its own.
[21:30]So yeah, you just have to keep showing up.
[21:33]It's so true.
[21:35]Well, thank you.
[21:36]Congratulations on five Tuesdays and winter.
[21:39]Oh, thank you.
[21:40]You should.
[21:40]Are you doing something on five consecutive Tuesdays
[21:42]and winter to like celebrate this book in some way?
[21:45]Did you pick the Tuesdays yet?
[21:46]Oh, that's a great idea though.
[21:48]No, I haven't I haven't I haven't gotten there at all.
[21:52]Oh, you should you have to be like Tuesday number one.
[21:55]Tuesday number two.
[21:56]Okay, I'm doing that.
[21:57]That is a fantastic idea.
[21:59]Thank you.
[22:00]You're welcome.
[22:01]All right.
[22:02]Okay, thanks again.
[22:03]Thank you.
[22:04]So so much.
[22:05]Take care.
[22:06]Okay.
[22:06]Hi, Lily.
[22:07]Bye.
[22:09]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[22:11]Don't have time to read books.
[22:13]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebioens
[22:16]and at moms don't have time to read books.
[22:18]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioens.com
[22:21]And sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors
[22:23]on Zoom every other week.
[22:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[22:27]for the Sound Editing.
[22:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:30]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.