Tamron Hall, AS THE WICKED WATCH: The First Jordan Manning Novel
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:05]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:07]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:12]Check it out, and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things
[0:16]Moms Don't Have Time to Do. All the authors have been on this podcast.
[0:19]Also, check out my TikTok at with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:22]My other podcast, Sex Talk with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:25]Check out Moms Don't Have Time to Write on Medium.
[0:28]And of course, my new publishing company called Sivi Books.
[0:32]And now, back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[0:36]Hi, hi. Hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:41]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:47]Here's a little snippet by one of the authors from the anthology.
[0:51]My name is Esther Amini, and I'm thrilled to have contributed to Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:59]My essay is called The Neath the Surface.
[1:02]It's about my Iranian upbringing and making up for lost time.
[1:08]Tamron Hall is the author of As the Wicked Watch.
[1:11]Emmy Award-winning talk show host Tamron Hall is the host and executive producer of the popular
[1:17]nationally syndicated talk show Tamron Hall.
[1:19]Formally of the Today Show, she has also hosted six seasons of Deadline Crime on Investigation Discovery.
[1:27]While at NBC, she was recipient of the Edward R. Murrow Award for her report on domestic abuse.
[1:33]Tamron currently serves as an advocate for domestic violence awareness.
[1:37]Welcome, Tamron.
[1:38]Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:41]Thank you so much for having me, and I hope Moms have time to read at least one book by and at the moment.
[1:48]I know.
[1:49]I think the question is how did this mom have time to write this book is really probably what people are wondering.
[1:54]You know what, it was it was incredible to say the least to have a toddler in the home while trying to write this book.
[2:03]I can't even think of a, here I am writing my second novel in this series.
[2:07]And I can't come up with a better word than incredible.
[2:11]Incredible experience. Do you have a toddler while writing a novel?
[2:17]Let me tell you, that's another book coming soon.
[2:20]Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes, incredible.
[2:23]You know, there are probably more choice words about what it's really like.
[2:27]I have four kids myself and I, you know, it's hard to get anything done ever.
[2:31]So I totally get it.
[2:32]It is.
[2:33]And you know, and it's such a challenge. I, I just this morning was, you know, I had that I had a, I guess about mom guilt.
[2:41]I slept in this morning.
[2:43]And my son woke up around six and I laid in bed until eight.
[2:50]And this was usual for me.
[2:52]I just celebrated a birthday yesterday and we've been so happy birthday.
[2:56]Thank you. Thank you. And we've been filming the talk show and obviously talking about as the wicked watch and I laid in bed for an extra hour and a half.
[3:05]and a full bout of mom guilt. And I had to call my friends and mother for to walk me off the ledge and she said, you just stay in that bed.
[3:13]You stay in the bed right now.
[3:15]I'm talking about the toddler who's in the next room.
[3:19]You know, is it can hear me?
[3:22]Does he know I'm awake? Should I go in right now?
[3:25]I feel horrible. That was my day today.
[3:27]Oh my gosh. Well, I'm here to also absolve you of any guilt.
[3:31]Yes, you know, he probably he doesn't even know it's already gone. Like you got the time you needed the time.
[3:38]And I've been trying to use this approach that was suggested to me by a couple of moms. Honestly, it's focusing in not on the amount of time but the quality of time.
[3:49]So we really now have implemented the put down the phone rule, not even in his same atmosphere.
[3:56]You know, so that he knows that we truly are locked in on him. Even if it's for that 30 minutes.
[4:02]Going in and being absolutely present. And I think that I believed I was doing that.
[4:08]But I truly have to have that come to Jesus mode with myself and say the phone was in the room enough that if I glanced at it, he saw me glance and being aware that it to an half.
[4:20]Now he sees that and he recognizes that when he looked up after he said he was saying some like bumblebee thing and he looked up and he caught me for a split second once not looking.
[4:32]It's like, oh, so we're just trying to implement that rule of not obsessing over the clock number right two hours, five hours. It's can I be completely present with this person who deserves that from me.
[4:46]I want to share that one. So it's been interesting part of the mom journey that man, they don't write enough about that topic.
[4:54]Honestly, I feel like the same thing even with my husband right like it's so easy to be distracted and a girlfriend of mine once told me that she had read some study if you lock eyes with someone for only like 18 seconds.
[5:07]I probably misquoted it, but it's something like that, something really small. The power of just sustaining eye contact for like less than 30 seconds is enough to keep you going for well because a lot of times you like look up and then you lift it.
[5:20]So anyway, I try that well actually now I've been forgetting to even try that, but when I did try it over.
[5:25]And that, you know, honestly, you're asking y'all got this book done. That's really how I'm able to as a new mom or new wish mom and also, you know, with the other things I'm going on.
[5:36]I'm a Virgo. I'm super analytical. So I still write, I don't even use my notes on my iPhone. I still write things down and I try to manage my time.
[5:46]I include with my son that includes to your point with my husband. I'm sure he believes he deserves more time too. And that allowed for me on Saturdays to really dig into my book.
[5:56]And so I would get up in the morning. I'm an early riser 30 years of morning TV. I can't get past 5 a.m. So I would, you know, on a Saturday get my cup of coffee. I still love making my coffee. I think that's because my grandfather was always in the home.
[6:11]So it's like the Folgers and you get the cup.
[6:14]With like the actual glass thing.
[6:16]I've upgraded to espresso, but I still have my all cup and I make my cup.
[6:20]Okay.
[6:21]I've upgraded. I've upgraded for my grandpa's little kettle, but I have my make a cup of coffee and I was able to just vanish into this character who obviously is inspired by my years as a reporter, but also now
[6:39]inspired by my ability and confidence to speak up and speak out on behalf of survivors of domestic violence.
[6:47]On behalf of women as we continue to fight for equality in the workplace hearing our voices, whether we're moms or non moms and I tell people I don't conflate motherhood with womanhood. I was a woman for 48 years. I've been a mom for two.
[7:01]So there are very two different experiences and I don't conflate them, but because this case that Jordan Manning, the character, the protagonist in this hurt the case she's following involves the death of an 11 year old girl and in my career in 1997, I covered the deaths of two girls, one white, one black, both 11.
[7:21]So I didn't realize how much I had pinned up inside of me related to those cases. So now I'm being a mom, a journalist five a.m. strong cup of coffee and it just allowed it all to flow out of me quite effortlessly only though when I manage the time.
[7:43]Yeah, I do. I said it in time. I also, I will watch the clock and kind of monitor myself almost like football game. It's like, listen, if I'm not in the second quarter, I got to get this ball going. So I managed my time.
[7:59]I am really with my husband, because my husband will do the pop in. Yeah, he does when he's working from home now, of course, we were all working from home over this time period when he was working from home.
[8:10]I never, I don't know if you get his meetings. I was zoom. I want to zoom or I'm writing my husband's like walking by thankfully not in a bath towel. I've seen some other people, but I'm like, what are you doing?
[8:21]Like, so we did have that classic gender thing where he thought I didn't know this about my husband, but I think somehow he doesn't believe that I'm actually working.
[8:32]And a lot of my friends who are married experience that say that they don't. And I know this is awful because I'm going to some gender stereotype conversation, but it is one that a lot of women, a lot of wives on moms.
[8:47]And I experienced it for the first time with my husband where I don't fully think he understands how the wheels of this train stay on both professionally with our son.
[9:00]So do you think that Amazon just sends us toilet paper? Do you think Jeff Bezos remembers that I interviewed him 30 years ago and so we're on the paper towel list.
[9:09]No, someone's ordering that and that's how it's magically popping up. And you need to magically break down that box and put it out of our house.
[9:16]So I think all these things happening, but believe it or not, it was all inspiring me to stay with the time management and get this book down.
[9:25]Like I'm in there with you. This is the best podcast ever.
[9:28]Oh, good.
[9:29]You know, they do have a subscribe and save.
[9:32]I do feature on Amazon just FYI.
[9:35]I'm sure you've seen it.
[9:36]And I subscribe and I am a proponent of some sort of subscribe and save.
[9:41]And I do that in addition to subscribing and saving this very specific iced tea that my husband drinks that he believes again just magically pops up.
[9:48]So that is the part of my time management. I find these little tricks to your point whether to subscribe and save.
[9:54]I do a lot of the meal kits in the week.
[9:57]And then I have my food and wine is what I call.
[10:00]but Saturday and Sunday or my New York Times cooking app
[10:02]Sundays where I explore more complicated cooking.
[10:06]And all of that, micro managing, I guess,
[10:09]is what it is the end of the day of my life,
[10:12]gave me the room to be a present mom,
[10:14]as best I could, a resident wife, and a new author.
[10:18]So that was kind of how I tried to manage it.
[10:20]It worked some days in a lot of days, a lot of days.
[10:23]I tried the meal kits and they took me so long.
[10:26]Like, I could wear it, I mean, that's terrible.
[10:29]But yeah, there's like 18 minutes.
[10:31]I'm like 18 minutes from Martha Stewart.
[10:33]Not me, exactly.
[10:34]I know.
[10:35]You know, when it kept us at that time,
[10:37]as you know, as I said, this book was written largely
[10:40]during the beginning stages of the lockdown
[10:42]and lending in New York City was a little more complicated
[10:44]to get take out and do those things.
[10:45]So it was a survival tactic,
[10:47]but it also became a time management
[10:49]because that the meal was picked out.
[10:50]I kind of knew what we were getting three, four weeks.
[10:53]And so that helped me juggle.
[10:56]And I don't like that word, which as moms don't anymore.
[11:00]I think people use to embrace it,
[11:01]but now we know it's a set up.
[11:02]So it didn't allow me to juggle,
[11:04]but it allowed me to have a calendar and some control
[11:08]so that I could move forward with this novel and my life.
[11:12]And the novel is not just writing it,
[11:14]but it's also, you know, editing and publicity.
[11:17]And I mean, the writing is just one tiny big piece,
[11:21]but I don't even know if it takes more time to write it
[11:23]than all the other stuff that comes after.
[11:26]Well, that was the surprising part for me.
[11:27]So like I said, I knew the story
[11:30]and had been simmering inside of me since 1997
[11:34]when I covered the first case.
[11:36]And then the second case of few months later,
[11:39]I was in a reporter in Chicago
[11:41]and it happened and I covered that.
[11:43]Again, not knowing that this would all manifest
[11:45]into this novel and it would release in the way
[11:48]that it did from my spirit to the pages.
[11:51]I didn't know that at all,
[11:53]but for me, you know, I knew that somehow
[12:00]I needed to resolve some of the things
[12:03]that were inside of me after covering both of those stories.
[12:06]And so that part to your point was easy.
[12:10]I did not know the promotional part of it.
[12:12]I also underestimated the promotional part
[12:14]and talk show, but I think,
[12:16]I think that's what has helped in that respect
[12:19]of the promotion and marketing.
[12:21]It's talking to people like yourself
[12:23]where we are no longer in that instillight world.
[12:26]People want the real you.
[12:27]They want, you know, you're stumbling answers
[12:30]as I just gave you one.
[12:31]They want the true intention and reason why you wrote this book.
[12:39]So it's worked in my advantage,
[12:40]not knowing the strict rules of marketing
[12:44]and the strict promotional schedules
[12:46]of both of those things.
[12:48]And I didn't get in my head about it.
[12:50]I pop on this conversation with you.
[12:52]I'm able to talk to you about my husband and our Amazon fight
[12:55]and still talk about the book without feeling so strategic.
[13:00]And that's really what the novel is too.
[13:02]It's about this reporter who is so strategic
[13:05]and planning every detail, but a lot of her personal life
[13:09]is falling apart.
[13:10]And does that sound familiar?
[13:11]Perhaps you might be looking at it.
[13:14]I might be able to relate it.
[13:15]I don't know.
[13:16]I might, I actually just announced this week
[13:20]I started a publishing company
[13:21]because I am trying to help the people, the authors
[13:24]with publicity and help put the author more
[13:26]at the center of the whole publishing experience.
[13:29]Congratulations.
[13:30]And that's a huge thing that I can tell you.
[13:33]I appreciate as I am now an author,
[13:35]but I also host a talk show.
[13:37]And so when I have people come on to talk about their book
[13:41]and I can sense very early on when they're too coached
[13:45]and you really do.
[13:47]Oh man, it's such a waste of time.
[13:50]I could have just read it somewhere else
[13:52]or I could have played it on somebody else's show
[13:54]or whatever.
[13:55]And then you're not like getting to know somebody.
[13:57]And then it's like, well, why am I even doing this?
[13:59]And anyway.
[14:00]No, that's true.
[14:01]And so that's a part of what you said regarding promoting
[14:04]the book, writing the book is one thing,
[14:06]but promoting it is another.
[14:08]And for me, there again was this intersection
[14:12]of they both needed and need my authentic reason and voice.
[14:20]And that's why initially I didn't want to share that
[14:24]the book was inspired by such a sad,
[14:28]too sad heartbreaking cases.
[14:30]You kind of want to, oh, I've got this novel
[14:32]and it's about this woman.
[14:33]She's a forensic scientist, turn reporter
[14:35]and she's solving crime.
[14:37]Okay, but here's where this ties into my life.
[14:42]It ties in because I covered two of the most difficult
[14:48]stories that I could have ever covered early in my career.
[14:53]And they have kept me up at night.
[14:57]And they have the two years of my mom journey made me probably
[15:01]even more protective of my son than I would normally be.
[15:06]Because I covered the depths of two kids.
[15:10]And it did, perhaps, in many ways I didn't know
[15:14]until I was writing the book and packed how I see security
[15:18]and protecting children and the wicked
[15:21]that are always watching when we don't know their watching.
[15:25]And also your idea is about race in the book, too.
[15:28]And how even how it was treated when you said the reporter
[15:32]was like, whoa, we can't wait to hear more about this.
[15:33]And Jordan's like, you can't wait to hear more
[15:36]about the death of a bug person, really.
[15:38]Thank you very much.
[15:40]And we don't even realize it, right?
[15:42]I've been in news a very long time.
[15:43]And I remember back when I started, people would say,
[15:48]the suspect was a black male, five foot four,
[15:52]and brown hair.
[15:53]And I went into a news director at the time
[15:56]and I said, I was in my early 20s.
[15:59]And I said, that's my brother.
[16:01]That could be anybody.
[16:02]We have to stop this.
[16:04]And he says, well, that's what the police give us.
[16:06]That is the description they give us.
[16:08]And we've got to go through this whole thing
[16:10]unbeknownst to me that other journalists of color
[16:13]were having that same conversation in their newsrooms
[16:17]around the country.
[16:19]And ultimately, we don't see that anymore.
[16:21]We're back in the age they have like a little silhouette.
[16:24]And it would say five foot six black male,
[16:28]dark complexion, richer.
[16:30]Well, OK, who is that?
[16:33]And so I later in my life as I started to attend conferences
[16:37]and speaking with other journalists of color,
[16:40]realized that that same battle was being fought all around.
[16:43]And we see this change much, like honestly,
[16:46]women's empowerment in the workplace, particularly in news,
[16:49]which is what we talk about as well.
[16:52]And I dig into more in the next book
[16:56]about the dynamic of being a woman in the workplace
[17:00]and how we are seen and not heard,
[17:02]even in an industry that reports on the bad guys.
[17:05]And that's what we talk about.
[17:07]But yeah, her views and her pulling the curtain back
[17:12]on some of these conversations that I have witnessed
[17:14]personally and that I've talked with other journalists
[17:17]about was also an important dynamic here.
[17:19]Because we have asked, why does the white blonde girl
[17:22]become the lead story?
[17:24]And the other girl who doesn't look like that
[17:28]is maybe the third story local news
[17:32]or even how police investigate the runaway.
[17:35]And that transcends race.
[17:36]That sometimes social economic, the poor white girl ran away.
[17:40]The rich white girl, where is she?
[17:42]So it's race, it's socioeconomic.
[17:45]It's what we see, who can be a victim?
[17:48]Who can we empathize with?
[17:49]And who are we willing to believe?
[17:53]We'll perpetrate some of the most heinous crimes ever.
[17:56]And in this story, we see people allow themselves to believe
[18:01]that a crime could be carried out by children.
[18:05]And did they believe it based on the race of those kids?
[18:09]Wow.
[18:11]It's some heavy stuff here.
[18:13]Our goal is to be honest.
[18:15]How many, so how did you know already
[18:18]that you wanted it to be a whole series?
[18:19]And how many do you have planned?
[18:21]Do you have the story anchor for each one already picked out?
[18:24]And I know you're organized.
[18:26]Do you have a whole outline situation already?
[18:28]I have an outline, but I have a vision.
[18:30]So growing up, I love Nancy Drew.
[18:32]And I remember my aunt giving me the Nancy Drew box set.
[18:36]And it was under my dad.
[18:38]So all I picture is the Nancy Drew box set.
[18:41]So I don't know.
[18:41]I was like eight.
[18:42]So I think I'm going for like six.
[18:44]Yeah, six there.
[18:45]I said to someone in my family, my talk shows
[18:49]third season launched September six.
[18:50]My birthday was September 16th.
[18:52]The book comes out October 26th.
[18:54]So somewhere along the line, I'm going to turn six,
[18:56]six into something positive.
[18:58]So we're going to go for six in the series.
[19:00]I do have the cases in my, based on the fact
[19:04]that I did a series called Deadline Crime for Six Seasons.
[19:07]Oh, there you go.
[19:08]Another six Deadline Crime for Six Seasons.
[19:10]And I have to tell you obviously all of the cases
[19:13]I've covered are heartbreaking.
[19:14]But there are some that rise to a level of fear and anger
[19:21]and just hit an emotional touchstone in a way
[19:25]that I'm still trying to understand, right?
[19:27]And I've walked into rooms and immediately cry
[19:31]with the family members of people that I have reported on.
[19:36]So there are a few sadly a lot
[19:39]that have risen to that point of a fire in my body.
[19:44]And I would through this character like to explore
[19:49]some of the things that have happened
[19:51]that I've witnessed in covering these types of stories
[19:55]that are heavy.
[19:56]But through Jordan, we do talk about a personal life
[19:59]and how.
[20:00]that does affect. You know, imagine covering a story on a husband that has killed his wife,
[20:05]and then you're going on a date with a new guy. It's like, oh, okay, well, that's a nice break.
[20:09]What did you do today? A story on a guy who's going to jail now for committing a crime against his
[20:16]wife. Well, okay, you know, I just interviewed Tarana Burke, the founder of Me Too Movement,
[20:23]and she talked about Me She Got Married last year, and she said, it's not easy dating when you're
[20:29]the Me Too originator. And she made a joke saying something along the lines of, she would tell
[20:34]me, and you don't have to be afraid of me if you've done nothing wrong. So they can see
[20:38]into your personal life, and with Jordan, the types of stories that she covers absolutely
[20:44]seep into her personal life, again, imagine being at a dinner party, and everyone wants to know
[20:49]about the story you've covered, and you just want to have a drink and laugh. And that's what
[20:53]happens to reporters all the time. You walk in. People want to know about the story you've covered,
[20:58]especially if it's the big headline story. And so we follow Jordan and how she navigates the
[21:04]personal life and being this individual, getting attention for things that she really doesn't want
[21:09]to talk about after hours, but she's dedicated to it. It seems like if somehow successfully
[21:15]orchestrated the series to work through all the traumas in your own life, it's like your PTSD or
[21:22]whatever. I mean, just because you're covering it doesn't mean you're not involved, and doesn't
[21:25]mean you're not emotionally affected, like you were there too, as if you were somebody on the street
[21:29]finding the body or whatever the situation is, like that is a lot to take on. So it's almost like
[21:35]you're very systematically expunging some of that stuff. Well, it is, and that is truly what
[21:45]and how it started. It was an exorcism, if you will. And that's exactly what was happening with me,
[21:53]I think, and also for me in this story and in the other stories, I also needed to seek justice.
[22:02]And I also needed to have empowering characters in this novel because I did and do run into
[22:12]empowering people every time I've covered one of these stories. The other layer to it,
[22:20]honestly, is it gave me a chance to write some of the wrongs that happened to victims that I've
[22:25]covered, whether it's a failure of parenting, a failure of the system, a failure of society.
[22:32]And so that's the superhero part in it, that Jordan is able to do things that I only wish I could
[22:38]have done as a reporter. And that was liberating for me, the writer. And I think for the reader,
[22:45]they will feel that same sense of good. Yeah, somebody is trying to do something right here.
[22:53]It's nice to be able to have a way to rewrite history a little bit. It is, you know what it is,
[22:57]it is, and I didn't expect that. So what advice would you give for aspiring authors now that you've
[23:04]become an author yourself and you're down the path to more and more bugs? Oh, wow, I think that
[23:11]as the time management can't be underestimated. If you really have this passion for this topic,
[23:18]and it is truly something born within you, to your point, it will find its way to the page,
[23:28]it will find its way to the computer, finding the time to let that happen is key. And we're all
[23:36]so busy, and we're all so overwhelmed. My niece the other day who's in sixth grade, she's like,
[23:42]oh my schedule, get it. But sixth grader is overwhelmed. Imagine what we are at 263646. And so for me,
[23:51]it's not underestimated the time management component so that your characters and so that you
[23:57]can live in that space. It's, as I said at the beginning of the interview with my son, it's not the
[24:02]hour that I have. It's the quality 15 minutes, looking in the eye of that character, looking in the
[24:09]eye of that book and looking into the soul of what you want to bring. Don't underestimate that.
[24:15]So the time management component, get a team that will handle the rest. They'll tell you how to market,
[24:20]they'll tell you how to do that. Get a good team, get a support system, and use what you are in the room
[24:26]to do for just that. I love that. Amazing. Well, I definitely think you were right to stay in bed
[24:34]and take the time this morning and, you know, ignore your kid. I'm totally kidding. Of course,
[24:45]you weren't ignoring him. I'm sure you were listening every second anyway. Well, I don't know,
[24:52]that's inspiring to other moms that sometimes it's okay to just stay in bed if you ever get that
[24:56]opportunity. So I love it. Well, congratulations on the book and happy birthday and I'm really delighted
[25:03]to have connected. It's been a pleasure. Have a wonderful day. Okay, you too. Thanks for listening to
[25:10]this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[25:15]adsuby Owens and ad moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at
[25:19]zibyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to
[25:29]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.