Sandra Boynton, GOOD NIGHT, GOODNIGHT: The original longer version of The Going to Bed Book
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[0:38]Sandra Boynton is the author of Good Night Good Night.
[0:41]Sandra is a beloved American cartoonist, children's author, songwriter, and highly sporadic short-film writer-director.
[0:48]Starting with a 1977 publication of Hippo's Go Bizerk,
[0:52]Boynton has written and illustrated 70 children's books and seven general audience books,
[0:57]including five New York Times bestsellers.
[0:59]Her renowned books include The Going to Bedbook, Barnyard Dance, Snuggle Puppy, Blue Hat Green Hat,
[1:05]Belly Button Book, Doggys, Spooky, Pookie, Jungle Knight, and But Not The Hip Apotomus.
[1:12]And for grown-ups, chocolate, the consuming passion.
[1:14]More than 70 million, 70 million of her books have been sold, quote, mostly to friends and family, she says.
[1:21]Boynton has also written and produced six albums of unconventional children's music,
[1:25]which includes performances by Brian Wilson, Brad Paisley, Kevin Klein, Casey Moose Graves,
[1:30]Blues Traveler, Allison Kraus, Meryl Streep, Spin Doctors, Davey Jones, Dwight Yocham,
[1:34]Patti LePone, Neil Sedaka, and Weird Al Yankovich in a duet with Kate Winslet.
[1:39]Three of Boynton's albums have been certified gold over 500,000 copies sold,
[1:43]and Philadelphia Chickens nominated for a Grammy has gone platinum with over a million copies sold.
[1:48]Boynton has also written and directed 12 short musical films, including One Shoes Blues,
[1:52]starring BB King, and two animated shorts, When Pigs Fly, sung by Ryan Adams, and Tyranusaurus Funk sung by Samuel Jackson,
[1:59]which won the 2018 Grand Prize for Best Children's Animation Short from the Rhode Island International Film Festival.
[2:05]Her most recent musical collaborations were three small and quirky projects with Yoyama in 2020.
[2:11]In 2008, Boynton received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the National Cartoonist Society.
[2:16]Boynton has four perfect children and two equally perfect grandchildren.
[2:19]She and her late husband, a writer and whitewater expeditionist, raised their family on a very old New England farm.
[2:25]Her studio there is a converted barn that has perhaps the only hippopotamus weather main in America.
[2:30]Welcome, Sandra. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books.
[2:34]Just because, oh my gosh, all of your amazing work, especially good night and night,
[2:38]which has recently come out in new form.
[2:41]I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
[2:44]It's so crazy too, because I used to read this book all the time.
[2:47]My twins, I have four kids, my twins are now 14.
[2:50]And when they were tiny, this was like our go-to. I'm not just saying this.
[2:53]I mean, I guess I could just be saying this, but it happens to be the truth that this would be the book I would read all the time.
[3:00]You know, now everybody goes below.
[3:02]Anyway, I can't believe like now you're re-releasing this book slightly tweaked and it's the same book and here we are.
[3:07]It's just crazy.
[3:08]Well, it is the same book and I have thought until somebody asked me,
[3:13]oh, I loved this book in its longer form when it was when I was little and I thought,
[3:17]oh, that's right. It did have a longer form.
[3:19]I think that preceded the board book.
[3:21]So I went back and looked at it and it didn't precede the board book.
[3:25]It was three years later, but I was excited to redraw and revisit it.
[3:29]And when I redraw a book, I try very much not to change it significantly to honor where I was.
[3:37]So it's actually kind of interesting because I sort of go, oh, why, why did she do it that way?
[3:42]In other words, I'm looking at my much younger artist's self and seeing it afresh, which is fun.
[3:47]Wow.
[3:48]So you'd literally, so you start, like how did you illustrate these pages?
[3:53]Like what computer do you do it online?
[3:55]I don't even have the right questions for this.
[3:56]Like how did you, I don't have the right answers for a user.
[4:00]It's actually pretty complex.
[4:01]I mean, originally, obviously, I drew everything by hand.
[4:04]There were not computers and stuff.
[4:06]And I do a mix these days, but if I'm redrawing something,
[4:10]I actually have to do it on the computer because I need to put the original page
[4:16]and a new page above it so that I'm really following what I did and redoing it.
[4:21]And I work very, oddly, I just found out that I'm not the only person.
[4:25]I use a mouse because I didn't like, I tried tablets and I didn't like them.
[4:29]There's a latency in them that I didn't like.
[4:31]So it's actually amusing for anyone who visits to watch now me drawing with this mouse.
[4:38]I desktop looking at the screen, but it's actually kind of fun.
[4:41]It's a little bit of a brain tease to do it.
[4:43]Wow.
[4:44]And then what about the writing of it?
[4:46]The writing I follow exactly the way it was written before in terms of the typography,
[4:52]the great advantage of computers for me is I used to have to wait for it to be typeset.
[4:58]And by the time you saw it, it was too late to change it.
[5:01]And the great thing about for me, in a sense, I'm now doing my own typography and my own separations.
[5:07]And it means I've gotten much better at it because I can say, oh, this would look great green.
[5:13]And then I try it green. I go, no, that looks terrible.
[5:16]So it's exciting.
[5:19]It's really fun.
[5:20]Wow.
[5:21]Well, how did you start using all the it?
[5:24]Like, where did your style come from?
[5:26]Because it's so unique and so recognizable.
[5:28]And your characters are, you know, you can always tell they're like part of your family, right?
[5:33]You're the character that you do.
[5:34]I don't know if it's that, I mean, I know every illustrator must have their own style and everything.
[5:38]But how do you, how did you come up with this?
[5:41]How have you like taken it through the ages?
[5:44]How do you keep coming up with like eight million book ideas that are constantly entertaining?
[5:48]Well, well, fear of getting a real job is a significant part of that.
[5:53]No, in terms of style, actually, there's a quotation that my son sent me a while ago from a famous comic book illustrator.
[6:01]And I love this quotation.
[6:02]So it's now in my desk.
[6:03]I'm going to read it to you because he put it in a frame.
[6:06]Style is the result of the shortcuts and errors in an artist's approach.
[6:11]And so I think it's true that I think I'm guessing it's true for other creators as well.
[6:17]What you can't do naturally, you find your own workarounds to your own way.
[6:23]So it's not like you're saying, oh, I need my own style.
[6:25]I need my own voice.
[6:26]You're saying, this is the best I can do.
[6:28]And since I've met now a lot of cartoonists, especially who are just remarkably skillful.
[6:36]And I'm just still not at that level.
[6:40]So it's exciting to see that people can do that.
[6:43]And I'm now glad that I couldn't because I did have to develop my own style.
[6:48]And I started selling my own artwork when I was in college.
[6:53]And you and I went to the same college.
[6:55]I was going to mention that.
[6:56]Yes, exactly.
[6:57]I went to Yale.
[6:58]Yeah, yeah.
[6:59]And I thought I put them out.
[7:00]I was a junior.
[7:01]And I created my own summer job because I didn't want to waitress again.
[7:05]So I was at an uncle who was a printer.
[7:07]And he printed some of my artwork just for gift enclosure cards.
[7:11]There were no messages.
[7:13]And he printed them on watercolor paper.
[7:15]So they're just a line.
[7:16]And then I hand colored them on.
[7:18]So I spent the summer hand painting literally 60,000 gift enclosure cards.
[7:24]Now, they're not very complex paintings.
[7:27]But still, that's a lot.
[7:28]And I sold them myself.
[7:30]And so I continued to sell them as an undergraduate.
[7:33]And the master of the former Calhoun College.
[7:36]Let me put them up in the entryway in a frame for people to contact me and buy them.
[7:42]So it goes way back.
[7:44]Wow.
[7:45]That's so cool.
[7:46]Calhoun had good lunches.
[7:47]I was in Davenport.
[7:48]But you know, I had a friend in Calhoun.
[7:50]Anyway.
[7:51]Yeah.
[7:52]It was a great dining hall.
[7:53]Yeah.
[7:54]It's interesting how these residential colleges keep their character through the years with zero overlap in the people that's fascinating.
[8:02]It's true.
[8:03]It's so true.
[8:04]Wow.
[8:05]So you started out, go with a leg up from your master.
[8:08]And Calhoun was exactly listening.
[8:10]That's like the dean base.
[8:11]It's not a dean, but like the head of the residential college.
[8:14]They call it like the head of an anyway, the house parent or whatever.
[8:17]I mean, it sounds bad now when you say it.
[8:19]I love it.
[8:20]Anyway.
[8:21]So he gave you your start.
[8:22]And then what happened after college?
[8:23]Like, what did you do next?
[8:24]I actually went to grad school in drama.
[8:27]I had Berkeley, right?
[8:28]Berkeley.
[8:29]I make that up.
[8:30]Oh, I did.
[8:31]I went to Berkeley.
[8:32]I went to UC Berkeley.
[8:33]And I didn't especially like it there.
[8:34]So I finished one year, took a year off.
[8:36]And then I went to the Yale School of Drama.
[8:38]And I was there for a year and a half.
[8:40]I didn't especially like it there.
[8:42]And so I have the credit of having dropped out of two.
[8:45]school times.
[8:47]So I was hardly by the time I was at Berkeley,
[8:50]I was already designing cards professionally,
[8:53]because I had met a company in the summer between college
[8:58]and grad school.
[8:59]I was trying to now sell my designs to someone else to do other
[9:11]called recycled paper products. They must have been 26 or 27 pretty good. And they took over
[9:17]the designs. And we were also lucky, the designs took off right away. And because there really
[9:23]wasn't anything, because as you say, I have my own style, they just didn't look like anything
[9:28]else in the marketplace. And the, you know, Mike and Phil, the two guys who, from Amherst, who started
[9:33]the company were smart enough to let me do white backgrounds on them, which made them
[9:41]stick out from every other card, because nobody did white backgrounds. So I was already,
[9:46]I was really lucky. I was already established by the time I dropped out of the second
[9:51]graduate school, I was already in a profession. Wow. And then when did you turn to books?
[9:56]Ah, I actually have been doing books.
[10:00]Since I was a tiny kid, I did my first children's book, which I didn't remember when I was
[10:05]age four. My sister, my oldest sister when she was in college was doing a report on children's
[10:12]literature on the end on the way children draw. And she found this old book of mine,
[10:17]four pages long. And I've now memorized it. It was called a funny animal. And it goes,
[10:24]once there was a funny animal, he had a birthday party. All the animals came. They did not like it.
[10:29]So they left the end. That's a kind of a predecessor to Hippos Goversburg. And that sounds like
[10:34]I had an unhappy childhood. I had an excruciatingly happy childhood. But I just kept,
[10:40]I just kept doing drawings and writing. And I was lucky to go to a Quaker school in Philadelphia,
[10:46]straight through. My dad was a teacher at Germantown, Friends. So I went from kindergarten through
[10:50]12th grade. And the arts were the center of the curriculum as an excellent academic school,
[10:56]but that's a really wise perception that strengthen the arts, benefits everyone and every discipline.
[11:05]So you could be an art major at Germantown, Friends. You could take the subject
[11:10]as seriously as history or as French or as... And I took it more seriously than history
[11:15]of French, with their wonderful teachers. And every year we had to do a special project.
[11:22]So one year it would be Draw Bestiary, you know, which is a book of imaginary animals.
[11:27]And that actually was my first published work. I was 15 and it was up in the halls of the school.
[11:33]And someone from the Philadelphia bulletin saw an asked if they could publish a page
[11:39]highlighting the book. So that was my first published work. I made $40 from that.
[11:44]Wow. Yeah. I did. And Delan won place. Exactly.
[11:50]Wow. And have you always wanted to gear your work towards kids? I mean, I know some of the
[11:58]not everything is, right? You have like so many brand extensions that you've done and calendar.
[12:02]You know, but like, is that always? Is that playful? Did you always know that you wanted to
[12:07]center things that way? I don't think my work is just geared at kids. I think at all. I think
[12:13]part of the appeal of my children's books and the music that I've done is that they're not
[12:19]condescending and they're just appealing to people. Yeah. Mary, so I, you know, my greeting cards weren't
[12:25]for children at all. The one so where I first, you know, became known for cards that just was just
[12:31]humor. So I think, you know, people sort of say, so what's your profession? I tend to say I'm a cartoonist.
[12:36]And, you know, I wrote a book a long time ago, chocolate, the consuming passion. It's a,
[12:42]you know, it's a complete send up. Well, I mean, it's actually a scholarly study of chocolate,
[12:46]but done in a very humorous way. So it has the same, it's funny that people now see my
[12:51]characters and they say these are for kids because they didn't see them that way. And it's also
[12:55]funny that when I've done a book that isn't for children that's humor for adults, it often gets
[13:01]put in the kids section and people misread it as being for children. So I think the connotation has
[13:08]come with the later success of the books. And then I don't think it was always there.
[13:13]Okay, I'm sorry. I feel like I offended you with the question.
[13:16]Oh, my mom's like, obviously, as an adult, I consume what you do as well. And there is always
[13:23]some of that to every children's book. And I'm like, no, no, I just, you didn't offend me in the
[13:28]least. No, it's a legitimate question. No, I didn't. I hope I didn't sound prickly.
[13:33]No, no, I just like wrong, you know, I think about just like all the many books and lined up on
[13:40]the shelf. And that's how I think of you. But I don't, you know, often that's not the way authors
[13:45]see it themselves. So anyway. Oh, well, I certainly know I'm known as a children's book art. And
[13:50]I'm proud to be, you know, a children's book author. What I mean, who wouldn't be? So no, I
[13:55]Okay, all right. What you said makes absolute sense. Yeah, tell me about moving into the music side
[14:02]of things. And by the way, I can't tell you how many times I've tried to because a lot of the books
[14:06]have little musical notes like to encourage the reader to sing them. So I've made
[14:10]up so many songs like based on the words that are so bad. By the way, anyway, how did you
[14:15]get into that part? Oh, well, I have four children as you do. And when my youngest was six and went
[14:22]off to a full day of school, I finally had something I had always wanted to do and couldn't
[14:29]with a, you know, young child at home was to, to try to do something about the children's,
[14:37]I don't know how to say this diplomatically. You know, do something about children's music.
[14:43]I wanted to do music that I would like to listen to with my children. And that wasn't condescending
[14:49]and wasn't cutesy and wasn't difficult for me. I wanted to do something that parents wouldn't
[14:54]leave the room when it was on. And I still, I still hear from people like on social media,
[15:00]you know, people who say their kids are long gone and they put the album on in the car.
[15:05]I like to listen to it. And that matters a lot. So, you know, just to follow the sense that,
[15:11]you know, I'm trying to work for all ages, but not exactly consciously. I guess it's mostly
[15:16]because I'm the first audience for them. So I'm just just first and foremost doing them for me.
[15:22]Well, there's definitely something super joyful with like this sense of humor and everything.
[15:27]And it kind of reminds you not to take lives so seriously. I feel like that's like the message.
[15:32]I don't know if you feel like there's a message, but I think so. I don't know. I mean, I read
[15:39]not that long ago, but it's now probably 15 years ago. The all quotation I've never seen,
[15:44]all art is self portrait. And it's attributed to various people. And that mean, that startled me
[15:49]when I saw it and I go, okay, let me let my artwork. And I was actually pleased. I said, oh, okay,
[15:56]I'm pleased with this self portrait because I am by nature optimistic and playful,
[16:03]little skeptical. But you can see that in my animals. They look, their expressions are usually
[16:08]not, you know, if they have a big smile on their face, it's usually a little bit panicked looking.
[16:13]So, you know, that we're all in the human condition, I guess, and making, making, seeing the
[16:21]the bright side of things I think is important without without it being inauthentic. And that's
[16:25]important to me. It's authenticity is a very important thing to me that it's not that you're not
[16:31]strategizing your message that you're just trying to be, I'm just trying to be my truest,
[16:37]my truest better self, not my truest self. I love that. So do you still like all day long work
[16:44]on craft? Like tell me like what it had his work fit into life, which parts of it are you most
[16:49]focused on now? Like how do you divide all your time? Oh, if you asked anyone who knew me to
[16:56]say, I'm never including my children. And now that my children aren't home anywhere. And my
[17:02]husband died seven years ago, which is that I'm so sorry. Which is, it's really, it's really hard.
[17:08]We were, we were, we were very happy. And we were a good team. And so I tend to work a little,
[17:15]people would say compulsively, it's just where I can find comfort and meaning. So I can work,
[17:22]and I have a ridiculous capacity for work. So I can work 12 to 15 hours a day. And enjoy it.
[17:31]I mean, right now, I'm working on not one, but three calendars for 2023, which is very
[17:36]disorienting in time. Because when someone says, can you believe it's already September, 2021, I'm
[17:41]going to go, really? It's only 2021. You know, and it's a lot of work. And I like the detail of it.
[17:50]I'm kind of a process person. It's why it's why I loved being in a recording studio. And I
[17:56]produced all the songs that are on the albums. And I loved being in a recording studio. And in a
[18:02]sense, the director, theater director that I thought I was going to become, I was able to become
[18:08]by going into the recording studio. So I think I've done, I don't know, 75 sessions, maybe more.
[18:15]And it's, it's exhilarating. It's my favorite place to be.
[18:19]Sometimes it's just really nice having someone tell you what to do.
[18:25]Yes.
[18:26]Like if I could just wake up, could someone just like tell me what to do today?
[18:29]Pick out my outfit. Like, can I just like go back to that for just a minute? That would be nice.
[18:33]When you find that person, could you, could you loan them to me for just a little bit?
[18:36]I guess we could share this person. I'll think about it.
[18:41]Yeah, there is something comforting to that. Well, I'm really sorry about your loss.
[18:45]And I read that your husband had cancer and that must have just been the worst. I don't know.
[18:49]It was, it was, it was the worst. And he was, he was an athlete and he was
[18:54]obsessive about his health and his fitness. And, and just the kindest person you'd ever want to
[19:00]meet. And there's no making sense of it. So there it is.
[19:05]And so what do you do on the hardest days? Like when the days you feel like knocked off your feet?
[19:09]I draw. The writing of music is really, really helps. And sometimes it, I mean, I,
[19:15]I wrote a song serious, not kids song called Bethlehem lullaby last Christmas time just suddenly
[19:22]wanted to write it. And I got in touch with Mike Ford, who's the wonderful pianist and computer genius
[19:29]and everything that we've done all the all our albums together. And I said, I want to do this.
[19:34]and there's no time. And then I asked my, my daughter, and we're all in separate places.
[19:39]This is last, I guess it was the end, maybe early December end of November. And we did it remotely
[19:45]and put it together. And it's, and then I did it as a simple animation. And my skills are very
[19:52]primitive animation. It's one of the things I'm most proud of that I've done.
[19:57]Well, it's amazing. Do you ever...
[20:00]or write in long form, like to tell a whole story,
[20:03]like would you ever write about what happened
[20:05]or like does that help you
[20:06]or is it more the visual or the song or the audio
[20:09]or long form doesn't seem to be my strength.
[20:14]I mean, even as a student,
[20:16]if there was a 20 page paper,
[20:18]I go, how would you fill 20 pages?
[20:22]And whereas other people say,
[20:22]really, how am I gonna keep it to 20 pages?
[20:25]I seem to be a miniaturist and that's fine with me.
[20:28]It does mean I can grasp what I've written or drawn.
[20:32]I can't imagine being a novelist.
[20:34]I can't, how do you know where you are?
[20:37]How, when do you then go to fix it?
[20:39]How do you know?
[20:41]You can't see the whole shape of it.
[20:42]You can't experience it as one thing.
[20:45]Whereas with music or with a drawing
[20:47]or with a, you know, 11 spread book,
[20:50]you can perceive the whole thing.
[20:53]Well, so now at this point of your life and career
[20:58]and everything else, like what advice would you have
[21:00]for an aspiring author or an aspiring illustrator or somebody
[21:03]who wants to get out there and make a difference
[21:06]with what they're doing in this world?
[21:08]Well, I wish I had advice because for one thing
[21:11]the world has changed, publishing world has changed
[21:13]so much I don't understand it.
[21:15]And of course, I'm not trying to get started now.
[21:18]So I don't know what people would do.
[21:20]But really my advice and it sounds over simple, but it isn't.
[21:26]And it's not know what you want to do.
[21:29]It's know what to say no to.
[21:32]That's more important.
[21:33]Know what you don't want to do.
[21:35]Because your time is precious.
[21:37]And yeah, you know, the corollary to that is the follow
[21:40]your dreams, but most importantly is to, yeah.
[21:44]And saying no to things means you end up with more time
[21:47]and more focus and more room to figure out your next steps
[21:51]and what you want to work on.
[21:53]What do you wish you'd said no to?
[21:55]I've been pretty good at saying no to that.
[21:59]Yeah, I don't know where I got that from.
[22:04]My parents were wonderful.
[22:07]And as I said, my dad was teacher, my mom was an artist.
[22:10]And they had four daughters, no sons.
[22:12]And I think, looking back, I think that was probably
[22:15]in that era, as born in the 50s, grew up in the 50s,
[22:19]60s, an incredibly important thing
[22:21]that their conscious end on conscious expectations
[22:26]were all on us.
[22:27]And that's a value.
[22:29]So that combined with this remarkable Quaker School,
[22:32]I went to all the way through, I just had a pretty,
[22:37]and I think people who went to Germantown friends
[22:39]had a pretty clear sense of where they could help
[22:44]and where they were nourished.
[22:46]And that's the best gift I ever got
[22:50]to set education and the family I was born into.
[22:54]I could just send this little clip of video
[22:55]and they could put it on their website,
[22:57]maybe for Germantown friends.
[22:58]Oh, that's amazing.
[22:59]If you want.
[23:01]Perfect.
[23:03]And then you don't have to help them out the next time.
[23:05]You could just take the clip and, you know.
[23:07]That sounds great.
[23:07]I'll just, I'll just, I'll send you my video to it.
[23:11]Oh, wow.
[23:12]Well, thank you so much for chatting.
[23:14]Thank you for just so many hours of time
[23:17]where you've brought a smile to my face
[23:19]on like a darker day and like made bedtime and bathtime.
[23:23]All that stuff that can be so stressful
[23:26]having this infusion of levity
[23:29]and the sense of humor and understanding
[23:32]that you're still like a person as you're dealing
[23:34]with the stress of kids has been really,
[23:36]really helpful throughout the year.
[23:37]So, oh, thank you so much.
[23:40]And, you know, I don't know you,
[23:43]but my impression is you are very much someone
[23:46]who has a good North Star,
[23:48]a sense of who you are and where you need to be.
[23:51]And I honor that.
[23:53]Like, gonna make me cry.
[23:55]Yeah.
[23:56]Oh, thank you guys.
[23:57]Well, you know, we do what we can and life is showing.
[23:59]We do how we can.
[24:01]It's exactly it's a great motto.
[24:02]Yeah.
[24:03]We do what we can, which is it.
[24:05]That's all you can do.
[24:06]Do what you can.
[24:07]Yeah.
[24:08]Well, I will be thinking of you in your studio
[24:11]12 to 15 hours a day.
[24:13]I will be here for 12 15 hours a day.
[24:15]Just can't, just call me at 2 a.m.
[24:17]We can just text me.
[24:18]I'll just be in the same spot, you know.
[24:20]I'll text you guys perfect.
[24:22]It was such a pleasure talking with you.
[24:23]Thank you so much.
[24:25]And I'm really sorry again about your husband.
[24:27]Yeah, thank you.
[24:28]Okay. All right.
[24:28]Have a great day.
[24:29]You too.
[24:30]Bye-bye.
[24:32]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[24:34]to Read Books.
[24:35]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens,
[24:38]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:40]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[24:43]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:44]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:47]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[24:48]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[24:51]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:53]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.