Dr. Elizabeth Cohen, LIGHT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF DIVORCE: (Life After Divorce, Divorce Book for Women)
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:35]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]Dr. Elizabeth Cohen is the author of the light at the other side of divorce, discovering the new you.
[0:43]Dr. Cohen, who I grew up with basically, and called her Lizzie, but I'm going to call her Dr. Cohen now, is a clinical psychologist.
[0:51]And her book, light at the other side of divorce debuted at number one on Amazon in popular psychology.
[0:57]She is the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership after glow.
[1:02]The light at the other side of divorce.
[1:04]Dr. Cohen is the CEO of the Center for CBT in New York City.
[1:08]Her online course teaches women how to heal, grow, and thrive after divorce, no matter how difficult the process has been.
[1:14]Gosh, I should have called her when I got divorced.
[1:16]Dr. Cohen received her PhD in clinical psychology from Boston University.
[1:20]She was the recipient of the prestigious American Psychological Foundation Research Award for her research on the emotional effects of 9-11.
[1:26]She has been featured on the Tamron Hall show, The Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women's Health, HuffPost, Thrive Global, Daily Beast, and Goodhousekeeping.
[1:34]She is a weekly contributor to psychology today with her divorce course column.
[1:38]Dr. Cohen's divorce doctor podcast, which shares people's divorce stories, hit 10,000 downloads, and only three months.
[1:45]Hello, Dr. Cohen.
[1:47]Thank you so much for coming on mom's turn to have time to read books to discuss light on the other side of divorce, discovering the new you.
[1:55]Thank you for having me so much. I'm really excited to be here. Last time when we did our IG Live, I was calling you Lizzie, and I was like, I'm sure nobody else can't see it.
[2:03]Anyway, we know each other for a very long time, and so it's very nice to be in this Zoom together talking books.
[2:10]It's so happy to be here, and it is amazing to kind of think back, you know, I've known you so long.
[2:16]Where my life has gone, where your life has gone, and how any both of us really used what we went through to create something new, and as we were just saying earlier, maybe shift some stigmas and shift the way some things are.
[2:28]So yeah, go us.
[2:30]Okay, and also, you know, both of us have gone through divorce. You wrote really openly about it in the beginning of this book, and I love that because I opened up your end.
[2:42]It's like, here's my story. I'm like, great, that's all I look for right when I open, but I just want to know what is this person's story, and like, I want to cut through all the other stuff.
[2:50]So you laid it all out there right away, and then of course, once we know you, it's much easier to take your advice, right.
[2:56]I mean, it's much easier to take advice from someone you feel connection with and just like jumping into someone's book and being like, oh, okay, so listen to you.
[3:03]So anyway, maybe you could tell listeners a little about your story that you shared in the book, and then even why you decided to make this book and your treatment and, you know, your whole career now and centered on helping others.
[3:15]Yeah, thanks. It's actually funny that you say that that you want to hear someone's story in order to then be taught by them because as a trained clinical psychologist, right, we're taught completely the outcomes.
[3:25]So it's like, you know, tell your story. No, no, but I think that was actually a really big step for me was actually to realize that my story was powerful that I could help people even more, not being a blank slate,
[3:37]not being someone who didn't have a story, but really shared the story so you could so that I could get it because a lot of times people even with therapists think like, I know you're empathic, but do you actually get it?
[3:47]I never asked your therapist that question. So I answered that very openly. And yeah, so I went through a divorce when my children wore six months and two years old.
[3:56]So they were tiny babies and I was married to someone who struggled with the addiction of alcoholism and I didn't want to get divorced.
[4:05]I wanted to continue. I as a therapist thought I could help him. I could guide him. I could make it all better.
[4:11]And I did everything I most possibly could until I just couldn't anymore.
[4:16]And it felt scarier to stay in the relationship than to leave and leaving felt terrifying. So that's how scary it felt to be in the relationship for me.
[4:27]I didn't have any friends at that time. I was about 30 who had gone through a divorce.
[4:32]I felt I grew up in the same marinated space that we all did. I thought it was really terrible to get divorced. Like I still thought it was like broken home and I failed.
[4:41]And here I was this high achieving person I failed. I had a lot of shame about it.
[4:45]And I was also really unsure of how I was ever going to raise kids in a way that they felt okay without this what I thought this end of like Disney idea of a marriage.
[4:59]And so I felt really gutted. And I remember looking at on Google and looking up divorce recovery programs and really finding nothing.
[5:09]And that was sending me a message that I guess I wasn't going to recover. Like if there isn't something out there then I must not.
[5:16]And so I pieced together because of the privilege of my training a program for myself one step forward two steps back like just to try to get through all of the crap around it.
[5:27]And just I was so surprised when people would come to me and say, Oh, my God, you seem so much happier you seem so much better. How did you do it.
[5:34]And I thought, yeah, no one talks about how you can actually heal and thrive after divorce like people only talk about the sad story. So I thought I want to share this with other people and I want to be able to help other people step through this.
[5:48]Because I have better life now than I ever could have and I'm people say this I'm grateful to my ex husband for what we went through because I would not have.
[5:56]I wouldn't be who I am now when being a relationship I am now would be the parent I am, unless I had to face that deep pain and my own shit basically.
[6:05]I can curse on this right go for it.
[6:08]But if I hadn't dealt with my own stuff I wouldn't have been able to move through. And so the divorce brought me to my knees, but it also brought me to my my best strength.
[6:18]Funny how the worst times tend to do that right like that's the trade off. I don't know.
[6:24]I think if you're willing to look into the darkest times, because I can tell you that many people just try to find another thing to fill that.
[6:33]But if you're willing, I tell the story in the book that there was a moment where people asked me in the playground about my ex husband and I told this drastic story.
[6:42]I mean, we're all real, but these really dramatic intense story and I left and I don't know if I'm just remembering this you know how memory is like I was in Central Park and like 100 street and there were these two like two paths and I could go one or the other and I remember thinking.
[6:57]you can tell this story is this going to be your story that you're going to tell for the rest of your life. Are you going to tell his story essentially and you as the victim, or are you going to figure out compassionately and lovingly how the hell you ended up here.
[7:11]Like you ended up here somewhere sweetie like this didn't happen overnight. Let's try to understand how you got here and how to make sure that doesn't happen again compassionately and lovingly.
[7:22]Wow, that's that nice self care voice we're all supposed to use right, is that what it sounds like.
[7:27]I haven't heard it actually. I've been trying to conjure it, you know, but just you know, adding words like honey.
[7:33]Those are that that's the trick. Okay. All right. Good to know. Good to know.
[7:39]So also talked about your eating situation and how you were so overly restrictive and you know all of that and how that played into your treatment at the time and all of it.
[7:52]Can you talk a little bit about that that piece of your life.
[7:55]Sure. So when I was in college in my senior year I started I was in a relationship that was very very unhealthy for me probably very similar to my relationship with my.
[8:06]And I couldn't control that so I started controlling food and when I graduated I came back to New York City and this was before there was like a just salad on every corner.
[8:15]And I had been used to eating salads in the dining hall and I couldn't find any on Broadway and I walked for like two hours in a panic, but what if I couldn't find this one thing that was going to make me feel okay.
[8:26]So I decided to go to fair because I thought if I don't think it's supposed to take two hours for you to decide what you're going to eat.
[8:32]And the therapist said to me, you know, I think you have a problem with asserting your needs.
[8:37]And when she said that word needs.
[8:40]I really recall thinking like I don't know what that word means like I feels I know it's an English word, but it feels like a language I don't speak.
[8:49]I don't have any needs I take care of others I think about other people and I kind of manage myself.
[8:56]I don't have any needs.
[8:58]And just so people know like this work takes a long time it's not like I suddenly had some like amazing epiphany and change my whole life like no that was about 10 years ago.
[9:08]Like I was still in the not acknowledging my needs for a long time.
[9:12]Well, it's really hard to acknowledge the needs, especially when you're in a situation in which you're not going to be able to meet them.
[9:19]Exactly. And if you don't even know what you need it's really hard to know who you want to be with because my needs were so focused on.
[9:29]He was really you know crazy quote unquote in love with me and I thought that was all I really needed was someone to be like crazy about me.
[9:36]But I didn't realize there was other things besides that like humility and mutual respect and ability to communicate.
[9:43]I just I never was taught that that's really what makes a relationship.
[9:47]My parents didn't get divorced but really should have they really dislike have still continually dislike each other but never left each other.
[9:56]And they thought it was to help me but at my sister but really it was.
[10:00]not helpful. It was really painful. I think it was useful to me to have this role model of my parents
[10:06]both being really happily remarried and my grandparents both being really happily remarried as if
[10:12]like that's what I'm supposed to do. And now I'm very happily remarried and my poor kids are just doomed.
[10:20]They're like, dude, dude, does everybody have to get a divorce? And I'm like, no, everybody
[10:24]doesn't have to get a divorce. It's just like happens to be the way it is in our family.
[10:29]And I think also if you start thinking about divorce as the same way you look at like switching a job,
[10:33]you know, that something works for you for a period of time and then it no longer and you release it
[10:39]and you transition to something else, then maybe it doesn't have to be doomed. It can just be how we
[10:45]accept transitions in relationships. No one says to you, why didn't you stay in that same job for
[10:50]50 years and celebrate it at an event? Like we just don't put that pressure, but we do put that
[10:55]pressure on marriage, which is really unfair, I think. It's true. Sometimes now I look at
[11:00]couples like we just were with this couple over the weekend. They've been together 20 years,
[11:04]you know, and I'm like, and they're all right, actually they're younger than me. They're like
[11:07]five years younger than me, which is crazy. I'm like, wow, you know, and I was just kind of like
[11:12]looking at them like they've only like they haven't been it and they haven't, it's just crazy.
[11:17]It just sometimes it blows my mind that people can stay together for that long and like maybe
[11:21]it's because of my own failure that I have so much respect, but they seem really happy too,
[11:27]which is the thing, you know, so I also think you should be careful more self care about
[11:32]using the word failure. I don't think it's a failure. It's, you know, getting divorced means you
[11:37]saw that something wasn't working for you or for the other person. And you went with it. You went
[11:42]with the reality of what was happening as opposed to resisting what was really happening.
[11:47]We're not going to talk about me. That's okay. I'll call you later. No, I'm kidding. I'm
[11:54]kidding, but okay. So in the book, you outline all sorts of things, journal exercise, every chart,
[12:00]everything. So what is something? Let's say someone has a friend who's getting divorced.
[12:05]Yes. Because a lot of people have friends who are getting divorced. Yeah. What probably more so
[12:10]than the people who are getting, anyway, we'll do both. But like, what should we say? Because
[12:14]and not, you know, what can people do when their friends are getting divorced?
[12:17]Such a good question. Besides by the book for them, aside from by the book, which is the
[12:21]first thing you need to do, lay the other side of divorce by the book for your friends. But
[12:27]here, when I got divorced, I don't know if this happened for you, Zibi, but when I got divorced,
[12:30]people had either one or two of two reactions either, I'm so sorry. That's so terrible. How awful.
[12:37]Or how did you do that? You have two young kids like, tell me how you did it.
[12:42]And I've learned a long time ago as a therapist. What everyone says to you is just a projection
[12:46]of their own. Yes, I've learned that. Just a rorshaft, right? So like, so what I, so please,
[12:51]when you're talking to someone who's getting divorced, ground yourself in your, in your own
[12:55]stuff and be like, okay, what's this bringing up for me? And then ask them the most important question,
[13:01]which is how can I support you? Not sorry. Not, oh my God, not what did he do or they do?
[13:08]How can I support you? Because that's when going through a divorce, what you need more than
[13:13]anything, which is support. It might be, I need you to make me a meal. For me, it was, I need you
[13:16]to take my kids. Just ask how you can support someone. And don't assume how anyone is feeling.
[13:24]Yeah, someone once said, I felt like I was telling people and many like, I had one friend just
[13:29]burst into tears, like burst into tears. And anyway, and finally, after I, I remember like,
[13:35]telling all these people and then someone said, is this a good thing or a bad thing? She was the
[13:39]first person who didn't, and I found out later she had been divorced, which I didn't even know.
[13:43]You know, so yeah, I think people, yeah, anyway, that's a good question to ask. How can I support you?
[13:49]Basically in any kind of traumatic situation, to be honest, like that's a really good, good go-to
[13:53]line. Exactly. And it also puts the focus on the other person. So the other person gets a moment to
[13:57]reflect on, oh, talking about needs. What do I need? Yeah, they might not know, but right, yeah,
[14:05]I always think also just like send food. You know, you just, yeah, I mean, that's just my own
[14:10]voice. Send food is my go-to. Send food centers. Like that's my, you know, right? But don't say
[14:17]anything about the X. Don't say anything about your worries about them. Like they've heard it all.
[14:22]Yeah, right. Like they have heard it all. Just ask how you can support them. Yeah, it's kind of like,
[14:28]no matter what, you're going through some sort of an earthquake, right? The ground is shifting under
[14:31]you and your whole family structure is changing and you might be moving and, you know, things are
[14:35]going to change. So whatever the cause of it, it doesn't even matter. Like your, your family is
[14:41]shifting. How would you help someone with the shifting families? Exactly. How would you shift,
[14:46]how would you help someone with some huge size mixture? So now the person who, what about the person
[14:50]who's considering? Like, is this, should I be getting a divorce? Is this just what marriage is? How do
[14:57]I know if I needed divorce? Is it really that hard? It seems so hard. What about that person?
[15:02]Yeah. So first, I like to always say that there, people think there's like, should I stay or
[15:06]should I go? But there's actually three positions. There's, I should stay, I should go and I'm not sure.
[15:13]So I really encourage people to honor if you're in the, I'm not sure, but that is a real
[15:18]state to be in and to allow yourself to share with your friends. Like I'm confused and I'm not sure.
[15:26]We're so uncomfortable with being confused. We want to have a narrative that makes sense and is
[15:31]closed. But what if we just say, I'm, I'm just not sure. And it takes a while for people to decide
[15:37]that it's right for them. And so I want to encourage people to take whatever time they need and
[15:42]do whatever they can to listen more to themselves, journal more meditate reflect on how you feel
[15:52]when you're with the person. Like be very curious and don't get so hung up on like, I have to
[15:57]decide by this certain point. It's much more important that you are more grounded. I want to say
[16:04]in your decision than sure actually because you might never be totally sure. But if you can work
[16:09]on being grounded in your decision, that's way more important than doing it at the quote unquote
[16:13]right time. I feel like what you said earlier too when you said you got to a point where you had
[16:18]right. Yeah. You just, you get to that point. Absolutely. And I, on my podcast, the diverse doctor,
[16:23]I interview women and ask them about their stories. And they always say like that moment,
[16:28]it's a buildup of all the other moments. Like for one person's like, you know, they're at the taco
[16:32]truck and he ordered the wrong thing. Like it's a small thing, but it's that moment when you're like,
[16:36]okay, I'm done. And only you can know when that is. So friends, like just so you know, I get it,
[16:42]like when you have a friend who's been planning for a really long time about the relationship,
[16:46]you know, but just know that they're going to do it when it's the right time for them. And so
[16:52]you really just want to encourage people to continue to connect to what they're feeling and be
[16:56]curious about what they're noticing. And it'll come to them if it's meant to.
[17:01]What about managing kids? Because we both had kids. I had really little kids at the time too.
[17:06]I mean, it's been almost six years at this point. How do you handle like what is the overall advice
[17:11]particularly surrounding custody and like the moving back and forth and the stress on the kids
[17:16]when they have to do that? Totally. So my two biggest pieces of advice. First, never talk smack
[17:21]about the other parent. Like bottom line. And it is hard. I mean, you have righteous anger. My
[17:26]book I talk about righteous anger. Like you have reasons to be angry. And they might be parenting
[17:30]really poorly. But kids cannot handle hearing one parent talk about the other negatively. And by
[17:37]the way, if you think you're like being subtle and talking like neutrally, you're probably talking
[17:41]negatively. Like I promised you. And the reason is because kids need to feel connected and
[17:48]safe to go with parents. They just have to. No matter how often in my situation, my kids weren't
[17:52]seeing their father that much. But they still needed to feel like he was a value in their life. And
[17:59]they could feel safe with him. And so you must how you can talk to therapists. You can talk to
[18:05]friends. You can talk to coaches. You can talk to a lawyer. Anything you want about one and ask
[18:08]all the person is, but please do not talk to the kids about it. Also, if kids hear you talking
[18:14]smack about the other parent, they know somewhere that one day you're going to talk smack about them.
[18:18]It makes them feel very emotionally insecure. So just keep that in mind. That's the first thing.
[18:25]Like really. And that's one of the hardest, hardest things. I adopted this because as a child of
[18:30]divorce, like I knew that the person speaking ill of the other person will never get you to
[18:36]change your feelings about the other parent ever. No matter what, no matter how bad, no matter what
[18:42]they could judge up, you will never change how you feel about that person based on anything they
[18:47]said or anything they did in that relationship. Like it just won't happen. All it does is sort of
[18:51]poison the other relationship. So I keep that in my mind all the time. Absolutely. I think that's
[18:57]such a good point to me because and you start and also you just dig your heels in more to like
[19:01]even if you want them to hate that other person, they're going to defend the other person. That's
[19:05]just natural because it's your adaptive biological need to feel connected to both of your parents.
[19:10]So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is really to notice when you get triggered
[19:17]versus when your kids are getting triggered. So for example, your ex is late to pick your kids up.
[19:24]That might enrage you because you have that has happened, of course, probably over and over to you.
[19:29]But you notice that your kids are kind of fine with it. Like they're kind of stoked to have more
[19:33]time on the iPad. They're like hanging out with you. They're not that disturbed. You need to really
[19:38]look at who's being affected here because if it's you, again, talk to someone else about it.
[19:44]But if it's them, if they're not being affected by it, you don't have to go all out
[19:49]and either like attack the other co-parent or even talk to your kid about it. I tell this story
[19:54]in the book about my ex has been is remarried and he was having a baby with his wife. And I asked my
[20:00]kids when they were young, you know, how do they feel about the baby coming? Because they had never
[20:03]lived primarily with their dad and I he was good, the baby was going to live with them. So kept
[20:07]asking how they feel, how they feel. I one day my nine-year-old son turned to me and said, mom, I'm okay,
[20:12]but how are you doing with this? Because you keep asking me about it. And I was like, oh, God,
[20:18]he's right. I was not. I was really having a hard time with it here. This person who had
[20:22]wasn't there when my head little kids was now going to be this, you know, ideal father in my mind,
[20:26]I was angry. I was upset. And I almost like shifted their visitation because of the baby,
[20:31]because I was like, oh, they might be having a reaction. They really weren't. And so I really had to
[20:37]get clear on my stuff instead of putting it on them. Interesting. How do you get clear on all your own
[20:43]stuff sounds like you ever really get therapist of your own? I'm really good therapist. And I just,
[20:48]well, I mean, basically this saying I always think about if you're hysterical, it's historical. So
[20:55]the stuff that's getting you all worked up is likely from a time before where you were having
[21:01]a similar situation and didn't have your needs met. So I just kind of get out of this,
[21:06]I try to get out of this moment and figure out what I need. So usually it's like that I felt
[21:11]abandoned or that I feel unheard or I feel unseen because that was some of my early childhood
[21:16]experiences. So then I go to a friend who sees me or my partner, you know, I kind of try to help
[21:21]that part so that I can be there for the kids. Interesting. Like oxygen mask on yourself before
[21:26]the kids is like a therapy or like emotional oxygen mask. Wow. And what about moms who are dealing
[21:34]with these hypothetical moms? All my questions. What about these hypothetical moms who suddenly have
[21:39]time to themselves without their kids after being not that everybody listening is necessarily a mom,
[21:44]but just for those moms who, you know, the thought of not being with their kids keeps them where
[21:49]they are. And then if they end up leaving, having those times where the rooms are empty.
[21:56]So I really want to just take a moment to say how hard that is, you know, that is not what anyone
[22:03]who got married and had children was planning for. And sometimes that can be the most painful
[22:08]part for moms. I think also if you're used to being in a relationship that kind of wasn't working,
[22:13]you did a lot of managing. And so you probably didn't have a huge focus on like what you liked and
[22:20]what you needed. And so suddenly you have all this time like with yourself or with your new partner.
[22:27]And it's a learning process. I mean, I don't think it happens overnight. I mean, I think
[22:32]there's like the first year, the second year, the five plus year, like I think that time
[22:36]alone really shifts and changes. I think there's a lot of expectations about how it's supposed to feel.
[22:43]Sometimes it feels great and sometimes it feels terrible. And I just recommend leaning
[22:47]in to whatever those feelings are. I don't have any expectations. You know, you can make plans,
[22:52]but, you know, make plans and, you know, they not always get, you know, you can't always keep them.
[22:57]Make plans and cancel if you need to. Do what you need for you because it is a hard hard time.
[23:04]My advice on this, not that you're asking, but I'm just going to unsolicited it off her advice because
[23:07]that's what I do all the time. My mom, I never asked her to do this, but every Thursday at six
[23:13]when I would drop the kids, she would call me right away. No matter what, some weeks I was okay,
[23:17]some weeks I was a mess. She did that for years. And I always knew that I was about to walk away
[23:24]from the door that she would be calling. And now she doesn't do that. And it still is really upsetting
[23:30]a lot of the time. You know, actually, she was like, remember how I used to do that? And I didn't
[23:33]want to be like, yeah, can you do it? Like, I can't ask you now. I'm like, middle age mom,
[23:39]like, why am I not over this sadness? But sometimes it's really not. It's really hard to
[23:45]not be with your kids. And people think it's like so fun. You know, like, people come over and
[23:49]they're like, this is my dream come true. You have a weekend all the time without your kids just
[23:53]to be with yourself. And it's like, okay, yeah, I have time. And I have been able personally to
[23:58]create this whole, like, book little world because I have all this time. And I would never have
[24:03]done this ordinarily if I hadn't have been divorced. However, I would much rather have my kids
[24:08]every day, you know. And I think I'm so glad you brought up about your mom calling because I really
[24:13]do recommend book ending, you know, before something happens and after something happens,
[24:18]having support, I think it's so important. And to not ever assume what someone is feeling,
[24:23]one weekend, you might stay in bed. I read what you wrote. Like, you might stay at the whole day
[24:27]and for the whole weekend. And that's no different than having like a great fun weekend with your
[24:32]friends. Like, it's just however you, you need in that moment to spend your time. And it is
[24:37]really hard for parents. There's a biological connection. So when you're not with them, it hurts.
[24:43]Yeah. It's really like a joke that I position myself as any sort of, like,
[24:47]stable person because I'm like constantly getting like, so upset about things. And like,
[24:54]you know, some women I didn't even know on Instagram yesterday was like, well, you had quite an
[24:58]emotional. One day I'm like, so sad at like 9, 11. And I'm like, sobbing. And next minute, I'm like,
[25:06]celebrating. And like, that's as crazy as I feel. Anyway, same thing with divorce. It's like,
[25:10]but that's human. That's living in this human experience. Someone who's feeling your feelings,
[25:15]we can, it's the goal. I talked about this as a golden and like, you can be so deeply in grief
[25:21]and so incredibly grateful for what you have. We live in a world where we think we can only
[25:26]feel one feeling. We can feel more than one feeling at a time. You can feel relief and grief about
[25:30]your divorce. You can be so grateful to be able to eat cereal for dinner when your kids aren't around
[25:35]and be looking at pictures of them because you miss them so much. Like, both of those things can
[25:40]be true at the same time. True. And cereal is great. Yeah. Don't knock the cereal. I mean, that's
[25:45]exactly. I mean, I love that. But not having a, I mean, there's a lot of things that are really
[25:49]lovely about it. And there's also parts that are really hard. Sometimes they leave and I try to
[25:54]cut out my husband out. And it's like, what do you have for dinner? I'm like, I don't want to talk
[25:58]about dinner. I don't want to think about food. I'm so sick of like figuring out what the kids. I
[26:01]just, nothing sounds good. Oh, my God. I'm so over it. So if people are really in need of some
[26:09]extra counseling, are you still accepting new patients? Do you do Zooms? Do they have to,
[26:15]you know, what is your own practice like? So I have a, I've got a group practice in New York City
[26:21]and I have clinicians who've been trained in the way that I teach how to heal through a divorce.
[26:26]I also have a few slots for kind of intensive coaching that I do, but we do it over Zoom now.
[26:32]And I'm available also to answer any questions that people have. And I mostly want people to know
[26:36]that it's so brave to take on either accepting that someone who wants a divorce from you or that
[26:42]you aren't happy in your relationship. It's so brave. It is brave. What is your website? Where can
[26:48]people find you? My website is Dr. Elizabeth Cohen dot com, which is DR. And on Instagram,
[26:53]I'm at the divorce doctor at the divorce doctor. Amazing. Well, I'm so excited that we chatted again
[27:00]and that you wrote this book and like that you're spending your life helping people get through
[27:06]a really, really pivotal moment in the time of a lot of pain. And you know, I bet you are that
[27:12]letting the sounds ridiculously cheesy, but you are that light. I bet to a lot of people because
[27:16]just having someone out there, helping them through is sometimes that's it. That's the difference
[27:21]between like, you know, never getting out of bed and being able to like get to the next day.
[27:26]I mean, having an ally in it. And if it's the book, that's great. And if it's a community or
[27:32]it's a family member, I think it's really important to feel connected somehow and you're going
[27:36]through this stuff. And it's really important. And I have a, I also have a membership for women who
[27:41]are going through divorce to support each other. And it's powerful when you see other people going
[27:45]through it supporting each other. We need each other. We really need each other to get through these
[27:49]hard times. Do you have a group for people who just get that when their kids leave? Because I
[27:54]would join that group. If you could be like, doesn't matter how long you've been to divorce group,
[27:58]but you know, I don't know. Exactly. Or the ongoing, I mean, that's also an ongoing experience
[28:05]even with your over the divorce of the actual divorce. There's the lifestyle parts. Yes,
[28:10]the lifestyle parts. Yeah, exactly. Well, I don't think we're making it sound very pleasant. There
[28:14]are really good things about, you know, getting out of a marriage that isn't right. So I didn't mean
[28:19]for this episode to sound in any way, dissuading that, you know, I don't know maybe I haven't
[28:24]anyway, just go buy the book. Light on the other side. Thanks for being with you. Thank you so much
[28:31]for inviting me. It was so good to see you. I hope to see you in real life soon. That was
[28:37]really fun. I would love that. I assume you'll have a lot of book stops. So I can't wait to
[28:41]hear all about it. All the events. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't
[28:48]Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens and at Moms Don't Have
[28:53]Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com and sign up for my virtual
[28:58]book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[29:03]at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[29:07]this fantastic intro and outro music.