Phoebe Robinson, PLEASE DON'T SIT ON MY BED IN YOUR OUTSIDE CLOTHES: Essays

[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast Momstone have time to read books

[0:06]I'm also the host of Momstone have time to lose weight and I'm the editor of the anthology

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[0:16]I'll proceed to that book go to COVID-19

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[0:26]submissions so please send your personal essays there and if all that isn't enough you can follow me on

[0:31]Instagram at zivioins and my website is zivioins.com okay now back to this amazing podcast

[0:37]Phoebe Robinson is the author of please don't sit on my bed in your outside clothes essays

[0:42]Did you like how I read that actor comedian producer Phoebe Robinson is best known as the co-creator and co-star of the

[0:48]HBO limited series two dope queens she's also a New York Times best-selling author of the books

[0:53]You can't touch my hair and other things. I still have to explain and everything's trash, but it's okay

[0:59]Additionally Phoebe has starred in the movies Ibiza or as they say Ibita and what men want and was

[1:06]Moderator on Michelle Obama's international becoming book tour most recently Phoebe launched tiny reparations a production company under ABC

[1:14]Signature whose first project is a talk show entitled doing the most with Phoebe Robinson that premiered in April of 2021

[1:21]Comedy Central her next book that I'm talking about now. Please don't sit on my bed in your outside clothes

[1:26]Is the first essay collection debuting on her newly formed literary imprint tiny reparations books

[1:32]Welcome Phoebe. Thank you so much for coming on mom's to have time to read books just because please don't sit on my bed in your outside

[1:38]Close collection of essays. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here

[1:43]I'm so excited to have you so tell listeners a little bit about why this collection like what's in this collection that people need to know

[1:51]about and why did you even write it? Well, you know when COVID happened, you know

[1:57]The one thing that sort of was like my way of maintaining normal is I would try and read every single day

[2:03]And I was just it was just sort of keeping me uplifted and feeling positive and the first essay that wrote

[2:09]For the book is hashtag quorum bay about quarantining with my boyfriend who is a tour manager for rock bands and so we went from

[2:16]You know seeing each other like every six weeks to like 15 months of like 24 seven interaction and

[2:24]It was really funny the ways that we sort of like got on each other's nerves

[2:28]But also like we're really there for each other and when so when I was just thinking about like oh, that's a funny thing

[2:33]He did or like oh, I was really annoying then I was like that could be an essay

[2:38]And then you know just thinking about like I was thinking about my business at the time where I was like

[2:43]You know work was sort of drying up in certain areas and so I was thinking about that a lot and then George Floyd

[2:50]Murder, I was thinking about that a lot and I really just just sort of

[2:54]You know since I had all day and I had time to think, you know, it was like I think I could write about

[2:59]This time period without it feeling really heavy and sort of kind of look

[3:05]We were all living through it like we don't need to blow by blow recount

[3:08]But I wanted to sort of have fun with things and and sort of talk about perform a violation

[3:14]But then I also talk about you know self care which I love, but I'm always just like I'll just buy another candle

[3:19]Yeah

[3:21]You know to me like me started going to therapy during COVID and all these things

[3:25]I just thought it could be a way for people to laugh

[3:28]but also maybe

[3:30]See themselves in some way like I know a lot of people also started going to therapy during COVID and

[3:35]You know the title comes from my parents who are very strict about cleanliness

[3:41]Which is probably why I was such a slob girl up as a teenager

[3:45]But they just had this trick rule is like when my brother and I were come home from school

[3:49]They were like you can't like sit on the furniture

[3:51]You'd better anything to you change clothes

[3:53]And that's a thing that has sort of stuck with me as a rule of my own apartment and in my dorm room

[3:58]When I was like that my my late teens early 20s

[4:01]And so yeah, I feel like this book is really

[4:04]Perfect for this time period because I think it'll allow people to like sort of laugh and escape

[4:09]But also sort of think about some larger issues as well

[4:12]Well, I loved your the assortment of essays and how they touched on so many things that by the way can be relatable

[4:20]Not during quarantine. Yes and no right. I mean immediately your voice is like if there was an essay class

[4:27]This should be like the example of like how to get your voice on the page

[4:31]Because it like jumps off the page like even the way you do abbreviations or like not a

[4:37]Like when you're like I don't know

[4:38]I should have thought of an example like delish, but it would be I don't know

[4:42]The way you yell out the way you say certain words and it's literally like I felt like you were in my head

[4:47]Like I could have been listening to you on an audio book like it was anyway

[4:51]So I loved I just love when people's voices are that strong and engaging

[4:56]So I just wanted to like throw that out there

[4:58]Thank you so much. Yeah, my my mom had all these weird rules to growing up

[5:02]You know, she was oh, it was always about the wet towels. Where are the wet towels?

[5:06]Wet towels can't be here. They can't be there. They can't be anywhere

[5:09]And I'm like and now all of a sudden I'm like to my kids, you know, wait

[5:12]You can't put the wet towel that carpet stains

[5:16]My mom, you know

[5:18]But I guess it's inevitable

[5:20]One of the essays I found particularly interesting in the book was about your decision not to have children and

[5:25]The pressure that people women feel to have kids and there was a passage

[5:30]I wanted to read if you don't mind

[5:32]And let's see what was this called this chapter was called

[5:36]It's called yes, I have free time because I don't have kids

[5:39]Which is so ironic because my podcast is mom's don't have time for anything so anyway

[5:43]But at the end you wrote I write this so you don't have to feel alone or cry yourself to sleep because you've been conditioned to feel like not being a mother

[5:51]Means you are a failure

[5:52]Incapable of love incapable of making the world better than it was before you enter this

[5:57]I write this so women can free themselves from the pain and anguish of feeling like they don't know how to be a person

[6:02]You are a person. You are worthy. You are whole. You are healing while you are whole

[6:06]You are recovering from every comment snide remark and hurtful attack on your womanhood

[6:11]I see the scars and they are healing and after the healing is over

[6:14]You can go on living or start living for the first time the life you have dreamed for yourself

[6:19]So good. Thank you

[6:22]Yeah, I mean, I think you know like so many of my friends are parents now and my brother

[6:28]And she's been a lot. I have two kids and I love kids. I love being a aunt. I love seeing

[6:33]You know visiting them, you know pre COVID obviously and I just have always felt that society is always really

[6:40]Monitoring the way that women should live like

[6:44]Work but like don't work too much be a mom, but also have time for yourself

[6:49]Like be the perfect wife, but also like make time for your girlfriend

[6:53]Like there's just like no perfect way to be a woman in society, you know

[6:57]And I remember just sort of like feeling like okay

[7:01]Just because I'm not a mom doesn't mean that I'm not

[7:05]Providing value and then I'm not you know trying to help make the world a better place

[7:10]And I just wanted women who

[7:13]Make the choice to not have kids to not feel bad

[7:17]And I also think that you know, I've had so many friends who've gone through IVF and like

[7:22]I think people could just be

[7:24]Unintentionally invasive and you know sort of like well, why do you have kids right now? What's going on?

[7:30]And boba, and you just you truly never know

[7:34]What a woman is going through and why she doesn't have kids and you know, I've have friends who've like tried for years and years and years

[7:42]It's just like they don't want that question to be asked because it's just too painful and so

[7:47]With this essay, I was just sort of like whether you're you voluntarily don't want to have kids or you're just like unable to have kids like

[7:54]That doesn't mean that you're a bad person, you know, and I think it's hard to sort of

[8:00]I think we're very everyone's very quick to judge everything and

[8:04]I think it just really not that men don't have pressure as well, but I just think it's a uniquely experienced for a woman

[8:10]That's just always you just always sort of like self-policing because you just have been trying to be like

[8:15]Am I doing this right? Am I not doing this right? And I just want people to be like whatever

[8:20]Makes the most sense for you and your life is that's the right choice, you know

[8:25]So true, and there's this added of course judgmental piece about this, right?

[8:29]That's why people feel they can be in your business and asking about these choices, right?

[8:33]I feel like it's this

[8:34]Evolutionary thing like well, we all had to do it

[8:37]You know, and like people maybe they didn't want to have kids themselves, right?

[8:39]I feel like most of the time people ask judgmental questions or seem particularly judgmental

[8:44]Well, this is a massive generalization. So maybe just delete this from your mind

[8:47]But it usually is coming from a place that has to do more with them than with you, right?

[8:53]Like maybe they're going crazy with their own kids and they're like how did she get off the house?

[8:57]She like have a brunch, you know, why didn't you have kids, right? So maybe it's you know

[9:01]Regret or the feeling that other women have it being trapped. I don't know, but it never comes across the right way

[9:06]And obviously not for everybody, but I do feel that maybe you know sort of on the inner lining of that jacket, you know

[9:14]For seven years. Yeah, and I remember when Halsey did an interview she would say how

[9:20]It was difficult when she like announced that she was pregnant because I think she's like 25 or 26 and people are like

[9:26]You're ruining your life by getting pregnant so young and blah blah blah. I'm like, can you just let her

[9:32]Be happy her and her boyfriend made his decision to be parents like my mom had me when she was

[9:40]Wait, my mom was 28 and my dad was 24. It's just like there is no perfect time

[9:47]When you decide that you're ready to have kids then great go for it

[9:50]I just feel like everyone just needs to get out of other people's businesses and just let them make their own life choices, you know

[9:58]It would be nice. It would be nice

[10:00]Well, listen, I, you know, I'll wave that flag with you as much as you want.

[10:04]That would be a nicer kinder world in which to live.

[10:07]I agree. Yeah, yeah.

[10:09]I also loved your chapter on when you realized you were a boss.

[10:12]Like that was so cool. And you were like, I've been doing all these things

[10:15]and your tiny reparations imprint, which I want to talk more about.

[10:17]And you were like, and then one day I realized, you know, what?

[10:19]I'm a boss. Like this is amazing. And I can have fun.

[10:22]And then you have like 10 or so suggestions for other bosses.

[10:26]So tell me a little bit about that. And also I want to hear about the imprint.

[10:29]Yeah. So, you know, being a boss and having employees is sort of,

[10:34]I think whenever one thinks, oh, I'm going to start my own business.

[10:37]You just sort of think of sort of the fairytale version of it.

[10:42]And it's like, it's going to be so cool. And I'm going to have the signage.

[10:44]You don't have like my office desk and chair, like all that stuff is great.

[10:48]But then it's like, oh, business is like really intense and up and down.

[10:53]And, you know, managing employees.

[10:56]And there's just a lot that goes into it.

[10:59]And I feel as though people aren't always prepared to hear like,

[11:05]like we're not told like the nitty gritty of what it takes to run a company.

[11:10]And, you know, you can like do the research and listen to the podcast and talk to your friends.

[11:15]But until you're in that position, we just don't know.

[11:18]And I feel like for me, one of the biggest things about me becoming a boss,

[11:23]I feel like I've became more compassionate because I think you're just, you know,

[11:29]when I was an employee, it was just like, I'm just here at this place.

[11:32]I don't want to be here today or I want to be here today.

[11:35]And it's just sort of like my own like little world.

[11:37]But then we run a company.

[11:39]It's sort of like you have to tend to like how your employees are feeling.

[11:43]And all that kind of stuff and just make you become more attuned to other people's energy.

[11:49]And maybe course correcting how you're approaching them or how you're structuring the day with them.

[11:55]So really, I've learned so much and it's been really exciting.

[12:00]It's also really hard.

[12:02]But I wouldn't want any other way.

[12:03]And as for this imprinting reparations books, I met my lit agent at the end of 2014

[12:11]because he had emailed me.

[12:12]I was on like some stand-up comedians in New York kind of list.

[12:16]That's like whatever.

[12:17]And he saw that and he read a part of my blog.

[12:20]And he emailed me.

[12:21]He was like, you're probably already working on a book.

[12:24]But if you're not, I would love to work together.

[12:26]So we met up and we had a great time and I told him about my first essay collection.

[12:30]You can't touch my hair.

[12:32]The idea for it.

[12:33]And then he sort of says that wasn't going to be like a one and done kind of author.

[12:36]So you're asking like what I wanted to do next.

[12:39]Like down the road.

[12:40]And I was like, you know, Tony Morrison, I know she edited books while she were her own

[12:46]but I was like, that feels like a lot of work.

[12:47]I don't want to do that.

[12:48]So I was like, I'll just have an imprint instead because I had no idea

[12:52]that meant that it's so much work.

[12:55]I just was like, I love books and want to be around books.

[12:58]And so when maybe like January of 2020, I had an exploratory call with my publisher

[13:05]plume about having an imprint.

[13:07]And so he talked about it.

[13:08]I was like, okay, this is something I could keep in the back of my mind and then COVID happens.

[13:13]And I was telling Robert my late age.

[13:16]And I was like, oh, we definitely don't need to do an imprint right now.

[13:19]Like the world is falling apart.

[13:21]And he was like, look how much you're reading.

[13:23]All you do is read it your free time.

[13:25]So you like don't get depressed.

[13:26]He's like, so many people are turning to books right now to feel better about the world.

[13:31]And he was like, this is a great time for you to just like have an imprint and publish work

[13:35]that you like.

[13:37]Now we have, including my book, 11 books on the slate, which is exciting.

[13:43]And it's like literary fiction, some essay collections, some poetry,

[13:48]some not fiction.

[13:49]So I really, I'm really, I'm excited about this imprint.

[13:53]And it's mostly female authors, which is really cool.

[13:57]And I'm so stoked about that.

[14:00]And I hope that people will really relate to these stories.

[14:03]And you know, see the humanity in these characters and in the poetry and everything.

[14:08]So I just can't wait for people to read the books that are coming out.

[14:12]So cool.

[14:12]When's your first friend slated to hit the shelves?

[14:15]After my book, the first one will be what the fireflies knew.

[14:19]And that comes out February 1st.

[14:22]And that's by Kai Harris.

[14:24]And it's the story of this preteen named KB, her father passes away from drug use.

[14:31]And her mom has heard her older sister.

[14:34]I think her sister is like 15 perhaps.

[14:37]She has them go stay with their grandfather for the summer.

[14:40]So it's really about this, you know, girl sort of like dealing with the loss of her father.

[14:46]But also like, you know, what do you do things that like young kids want to do?

[14:50]Like making friends and sort of like dabbling and like dating.

[14:53]And just it's a really beautiful coming of age story.

[14:56]And then in April, we have this together, we're going to talk about an April,

[15:00]we have portrait of a thief by Grace Dee Lee.

[15:03]And I was obsessed with the book when I read it like the first page.

[15:08]I was like, we have to have this.

[15:09]But when I met her, she was like in medical school while she was writing this.

[15:14]And I was like, I will never complain again about writing a book

[15:18]because you're like, stepping out of your doctor and doing this.

[15:21]But it's basically to five Chinese.

[15:24]They're like, maybe college age, low like mid 20s.

[15:28]And they go around the country, go around America, stealing back Chinese artwork to bring it back to China.

[15:34]And it's a really cool, heist book.

[15:36]And it has a lot to do with identity and family and sort of, you know,

[15:42]just kind of like trying to find your place in the world and figure out who you are

[15:47]and trying to honor your culture and, you know, sort of that kind of like fantasy of like,

[15:52]oh, if I couldn't get caught and I could, you know, do some kind of like high-sea cool stuff,

[15:58]like what I do, this sort of thing.

[15:59]So it's really, it's really fun too.

[16:01]I love, love that book so much.

[16:04]Oh my gosh.

[16:04]Well, will you please make sure that your publicist ends me all your titles

[16:09]for this podcast and everything.

[16:10]And of course I can make sure, you know, pick the ones that I love.

[16:14]And yeah, I'm excited.

[16:16]That's so cool.

[16:17]Well, stay on at the end because I have something I want to, well,

[16:20]chit chat about that, you know, piece of it.

[16:22]Like two seconds.

[16:24]That's so cool.

[16:24]It's just awesome.

[16:26]And then you have like this whole funny thing about being with a British guy and relationships

[16:31]and like the thing that's so cool is your ability to sort of, you take life, right?

[16:38]And then you just put it down, but you find the humor and basically everything.

[16:41]Not like you have to be jaw-dropping funny.

[16:43]Just like the absurd, the humor, the like relatable stuff that happens in the every day.

[16:50]And that's just such a great way to go through life.

[16:52]So whatever the therapy you were doing, I don't know, I think it was working.

[16:58]When you were talking about self-care, by the way, I was thinking,

[17:01]you know, how bad a job most candles do at actually doing, calming you down at all.

[17:05]So wouldn't it be funny if there was a candle set that was just like,

[17:09]this is not self-care at all?

[17:11]Yeah.

[17:11]You know, like, candles in a row?

[17:13]I feel like I should like brand those, you know.

[17:16]He should.

[17:17]That's great.

[17:18]This is not self-care.

[17:19]Get a book and stat or something.

[17:20]I don't know.

[17:20]Something like that, maybe.

[17:22]I don't know.

[17:23]Amazing.

[17:24]So you also have obviously this whole, you know, in front of the screen,

[17:29]performance, HBO, you know, shows.

[17:33]Yeah.

[17:34]You do go.

[17:34]So how are you doing all that?

[17:36]You do the writing.

[17:37]You do everything else.

[17:39]How are they sort of working together in content?

[17:43]Yeah.

[17:44]It's so much.

[17:45]I know it's too much.

[17:48]You know, I started doing stand up 13 years ago.

[17:50]So that's really the root of everything.

[17:53]And, you know, I was just going around the city, doing, you know, bar shows or doing shows

[17:58]or just getting paid like $15.

[18:01]And it's really, it's really, I think people don't understand

[18:03]what you're coming up as a stand up comic.

[18:06]It's not glamorous.

[18:07]It's a lot of hustle.

[18:08]And so when I met Jessica Williams at the time, she was on the daily show.

[18:12]And we just really hit it off.

[18:13]And we love stand up comedy.

[18:16]And we would just watch these late night shows.

[18:18]And you'd be like, there's hardly any women on late night.

[18:21]There's hardly any people color on late night doing stand up

[18:24]or people in the queer community.

[18:26]And we're like, we're in New York.

[18:27]This is like one of the best places to do stand up.

[18:29]And there's so many talented people.

[18:31]You think you're like, Michelle, we'll tell.

[18:33]if you could nail me, I could pair again.

[18:34]You knew that on my podcast.

[18:36]Michelle, we too.

[18:36]Okay, I love her.

[18:37]Fantastic.

[18:38]And it was just kind of like, that's why we started to do Queens

[18:41]because we're like, we know so many amazing people.

[18:44]We've had like, bone yang on and everything.

[18:47]And people like, we didn't expect for it to really resonate

[18:51]with people the way that I do.

[18:52]We were just sort of like, we just want to watch

[18:54]hilarious people be funny and then we'll do our thing.

[18:58]And I remember we were getting, you know, DMs on Facebook being like,

[19:02]you know, every time I'm gone to like a stand up show,

[19:05]it was only just like dudes.

[19:08]So I just didn't think that stand up was for me.

[19:10]So I just stopped going to stand up shows and watching.

[19:13]And it was really nice to see people feel encouraged and feel like,

[19:18]you know, I think our show we never wanted to punch down.

[19:21]We never wanted to like make anyone feel bad about themselves.

[19:24]And it was always very joyful and positive.

[19:26]And so I think that's a through line with everything.

[19:29]And now that I'm doing this solo,

[19:31]stand up special for HBO Max is very exciting.

[19:34]I just really wanted to continue that.

[19:36]So I'm right.

[19:36]I joke about, you know, my boyfriend, joke about my dad.

[19:40]I talk about, you know, time to hung out with Michelle Obama.

[19:44]And it's really just, I think like a snapshot of my life.

[19:48]And it just, I kind of just try to have everything come from

[19:54]like my positive energy and sort of like how I want to see the world and then figure out

[20:00]Whether it's just should this be stand up to this view of book, shouldn't this, but I want everything to sort of like work in harmony and be just really uplifting and funny and you can have like smart stuff to say, but I don't want it to feel as though.

[20:14]Anyone's being reprimanded but rather like just being really frank and honest and sort of sharing my truth and that's kind of how I go about my work yeah love it so great.

[20:26]So what advice would you have for aspiring authors.

[20:34]That is a great question I really feel like it's so hard to break into publishing because you're just like I don't know what to do and so I would say whatever whatever kind of thing you want to write whether it's a collection or a fiction sort of first target kind of the imprints or publishers like.

[20:55]publish a thing that you want to write that's like key and then I you know for a fiction, like if you're trying to sell novel you have to write the names good.

[21:05]Pretty much, but if you're doing an essay collection have a you just have to have a strong proposal which has like two sample essays and I did that I've done that for all three books and people are like you still write proposals and I was like.

[21:17]Yeah, it's your blueprint it's like you don't want to sell a book and then you start writing you know like oh crap I don't know how to get from point eight of point Z.

[21:26]So just really make sure you have a super solid proposal and just really like don't hold back I think sometimes you can be like oh this might be too weird or.

[21:35]I don't know if anyone's going to like feel this it's like put down your most authentic stuff on the page because.

[21:42]Book writing is like a year long year and a half long process and you want to really stick with it you're only going to stick with it you're writing stuff that you believe in and then.

[21:53]Really make sure you connect yourself with the really the the agent I was grateful to have.

[21:59]My agent find me after years of blogging, but you really want to have someone that's going to fight for you and really is going to believe in your work.

[22:08]And it's going to try and get the best deal for you and really help you feel supported and so I think as long as you're like studying the craft you represent yourself well.

[22:18]And you really believe in what you're doing and just write right right right like that's the biggest thing it's just constantly like work on your voice and.

[22:26]I think like what you mentioned about earlier about my voice in this book like you know I started blogging I want to say back in like.

[22:33]2012 and it was like I don't know 30 people reading it and it was like that was fine because I was like this is the time where I could sort of figure out what my voice is and get really strong as a writer.

[22:44]And so I would encourage people I know it's hard because you know I did this while I had a day job and not everyone has the energy or the time and do that, but it really helped me to.

[22:54]Just do some writing on the side, whether it's going to be published or not, just so I could.

[22:59]Home my voice and get into the habit of sort of having to routinely write because write a book is so demanding and you want to be able to it's be able to have the endurance to do it.

[23:09]Okay, last question i'll start bothering you, you said how much you love to read, which obviously I do too what are some books that you either read during quarantine like you mentioned are you you're reading now or just something that stuck with you.

[23:21]This is a great question I keep my book reading list on my phone because i'm a full on nerd so during quarantine I read little fires everywhere which I was so obsessed with I was like oh my god this book is so good.

[23:35]Okay, I really loved it let's see what else I read normal people I read and like now I'm major Sally Rooney fan i'm like so obsessed.

[23:45]The secret lives of church ladies I thought was fantastic it was really really good, and then this year oh this pose you collection by Jasmine man oh I read that black girl call home.

[23:57]Yeah, she was on my podcast too she's awesome so good and then I read Casey Wilson's book the wreckage of my presence, which was really.

[24:07]So really funny she talks, you know obviously about her career in Hollywood, she talks about her mother passing away how she's like been dealing with that and it was really funny and moving and just like it's one of those where you read it you're like oh i'm just like i'm hanging out with the friends I really really enjoyed that book last book i'll say i'm so hard to choose the last book.

[24:29]Oh I really love this book called quiet by Susan Cain have you read it before yeah yeah of course yeah, but it's it says you read like everything it's such a it's such a great book and I really it really helped me actually with like writing my business and sort of just.

[24:48]For all condition that like everyone should just be an extrovert and then like you look at your team you're like oh it's great to have a mix of extroverted people introverted people and like that will help.

[24:58]make things great and I realized I'm like an extroverted introvert and so I was like oh sometimes you're like why am I so weird and it's like you're not weird you just being around a lot of people drain you so you need to go home and like we charge your battery.

[25:13]I am the same I'm the same personality type I'm totally happy to be alone forever I love being out and about but not for that long the other day I was like oh my sister a lot of bunch of people and I was like okay you know are we ready to go and she's like what happens in that moment.

[25:28]She's like what I don't get it always happens when you were like yeah this switch and you need to leave and I'm like I don't know I just like that's what I can do.

[25:36]yeah yeah yeah yes that was very actually my kid's school may that required reading or something like that was.

[25:42]yeah yeah well thank you so much for coming on momstone time to read bucks and for your fantastic collection please don't sit on my bed in your outside clothes.

[25:52]so thank you so much thank you.

[25:57]Thanks for listening to this episode of momstone have time to read books don't forget to

[26:01]follow me on instagram at zebi Owens and at momstone have time to read books also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com

[26:08]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to

[26:13]Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for

[26:19]providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.