Fredrik Backman, ANXIOUS PEOPLE: A Novel
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:35]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]I was really excited to talk to Frederick Bachmann about his book, Anxious People, which just came out in paperback.
[0:44]Frederick is the number one New York Times best-selling author of a man called Ove.
[0:49]My grandmother asked me to tell you she's sorry.
[0:52]Brit Marie was here, bear town, us against you, and now anxious people as well as tune-to-velas and one work of nonfiction.
[0:59]His books are published in more than 40 countries.
[1:01]He lives in Stockholm, Sweden with his wife and two children.
[1:05]Welcome, Frederick.
[1:06]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss anxious people.
[1:12]Your number one, New York Times, bestseller now out in paperback.
[1:16]Thank you.
[1:17]Thank you for having me.
[1:18]My pleasure.
[1:19]So when I heard about anxious people and that it was about hostage situation and the bank and I felt like that was not representative of actually what it's about.
[1:29]It's about some seriously deep issues of society and money and suicide and family and all sorts of other things.
[1:38]So I feel like the hostage was like a ploy to almost not a ploy, but a means of a vehicle to get to the real story.
[1:47]Did you feel like that or did I just make that up?
[1:50]No, but I think I think all cultures like that in different ways.
[1:56]I think there are very few things that would, I mean, all the things that you like, all the things that you really can excited about when you try to tell someone about them.
[2:07]It's very rarely that, oh, it's about, oh, it's about exactly the thing that it said on the back.
[2:13]It's about, I mean, the elevator pitch is very rarely what draws you into something.
[2:19]I mean, the most of the things that you get excited about are usually, yeah, it's about this.
[2:25]But it's really about this and this and this and this and you know, the great and people grasp on to different things, different parts of the story.
[2:36]And I've written, I've written three, you've want to divide my, my, my writing very categorically.
[2:44]It's, I wrote three comedic novels to begin with.
[2:48]And then I wrote spare town on us against you, which are more dramatic in its setting.
[2:53]And we bear it on us against you.
[2:55]I wrote from a lot of different people's perspective, which I hadn't.
[3:01]I had only written comedies with one camera, so to speak.
[3:05]So this actually people was the first time that I employed that.
[3:10]What I learned from bear town on us against you, the way of writing with from a lot of different people's perspective,
[3:17]but I employed that in a comedic setting and hadn't done that before.
[3:20]But as soon as you do that, the story starts taking a lot of different directions.
[3:26]There's a lot of different things going on because it has to be because if you're writing about seven people.
[3:34]they can't all be experienced, big experience in the same story.
[3:39]There has to be, so I think that that's part of where it came from.
[3:43]And then I just tried to hold it all together in the end.
[3:46]But it's also, I mean, part of that is also a trick.
[3:50]Part of that is also because you smoke some mirrors when you write.
[3:54]I have to have, especially in this case, where I tried to write a lot room mystery.
[4:01]And I tried to distract you a little bit.
[4:03]I need smoke some mirrors.
[4:04]I need something emotional going on over here or there's something funny going on over here.
[4:10]And I'm using that so that you don't pay attention to where I'm placing the clues of the mystery, the little bit of everything.
[4:19]Oh, you did that very successfully because I was totally surprised as things unfolded throughout the books.
[4:26]And I just loved how, I mean, I just did not see any of it coming, particularly like it just anyway.
[4:31]Well done.
[4:32]You know, not that you did my praise.
[4:35]I know you've had heaps of it, but I just thought it was absolutely brilliant the way it all became clear at the end what was going on the whole time.
[4:43]It was just brilliant.
[4:44]I just thought it was awesome.
[4:45]I also, I really loved the way you talk about parenting and the sort of stress that comes along with being a parent.
[4:53]I have four kids of my own and I am very well.
[4:56]I'm very familiar with that particular brand of stress and you had one passage towards the beginning that I was just hoping to read about parenting.
[5:03]You wrote, the man looked at him calmly, almost sympathetically and replied,
[5:06]do you know what the worst thing about being a parent is that you're always judged by your worst moments.
[5:11]You can do a million things right.
[5:12]But if you do one single thing wrong, you're forever that parent who was checking his phone in the park when your child was hidden ahead by a swing.
[5:19]We don't take our eyes off them for days at a time, but then you read just one text message and it's as if all your best moments never happened.
[5:25]No one goes to see a psychologist to talk about all the times they weren't hidden ahead by a swing as a child.
[5:30]Parents are defined by their mistakes.
[5:33]So tell me a little bit about that and if this is coming from a personal place or not.
[5:39]But it's coming from a general place.
[5:41]I think you can apply that to grown up as well.
[5:46]That's a big part of growing up and becoming an adult.
[5:50]But in particular, as you become a parent, you start analyzing yourself and your place in the world more.
[5:59]Because a lot of the things that you assume about yourself and a lot of the things that are important to you, all of a sudden you have, they come into question.
[6:08]Because all this is really important to me, but it doesn't like this particular principle of mine does not work when I have to be with my kids.
[6:19]This can be how every important I want it to be. It doesn't matter when I have kids and all of a sudden you have to like sort in between your principles and decide what are the principles that are most important to me.
[6:34]One of the things that you learn fairly quickly is that you're going to be judged by your mistakes.
[6:40]You're not going to be because you also learn very quickly that you have this, well, how was your day?
[6:46]How was your day?
[6:48]Well, the kids are going to pick up your kids from school and you ask like, how was your day?
[6:54]They very rarely say, oh, you know what?
[6:58]Seven hours and 38 minutes, it was awesome that it was awesome. Like, they're going to start with when, well, you know, there's one other kid with me or there's one kid through Sam or the teacher was unfair or, you know, they're going to go straight to what's bothering them.
[7:15]If you ask for a review of yourself as a parent, they're going to go straight to like these are your flaws.
[7:22]That's just a thing that you, I think that I wasn't asked prepared for it and I wasn't asked prepared for the thing that you get zero credit as a parent.
[7:32]Like, all of the things that you like, it's assumed that you're supposed to be a great parent.
[7:38]It's assumed like, well, I gave my kids, you know, home cooked food every day this week.
[7:44]Well, it's assumed you're supposed to and I felt that was something I could use like this everyday anxiety.
[7:52]It's also the fact that if you want to talk about like the dramatic points of writing a novel, it's a pretty common statement about writing a novel that something has to be gambled.
[8:07]Like something, there has to be stakes. Someone has to be on the verge of losing something to make this interesting or, you know, to make us root for them and you call that stakes.
[8:21]Again, yeah, I think that was that was what I could use here to to to make that obvious that as soon as your kids are involved.
[8:34]You're prepared to do a lot of pretty stupid things, as soon as your kids are involved, you know, you're everything changes your whole perspective of like what's what would I be prepared to do to support myself?
[8:51]That's a whole different question from what would I be prepared to do to support my kids, the length would I go to keep my kids safe or so I kind of use those basic emotions of never being good enough and put that into a
[9:09]a medical setting where all right, this, this could be the reason why people got put in this situation to begin with.
[9:17]It's so interesting and so true. It is the most thankless job, you know, known to me, but yes.
[9:26]Because your kids always have that they have that perfect arguments to whenever you're upset with them.
[9:34]Then why did you have kids? I didn't have to get kids. It's not a lot that you have to know of forced you to have kids. You had a kid now, you know, this is your I'm your problem.
[9:45]You figured out and that's such a perfect argument, especially if you know, especially if they can say, well, I'm your DNA. So if I, you know, if I annoy you, that's all needed.
[9:59]I like it.
[10:00]don't say that to me, but they should. Yeah, your kids are a little more manipulative or brighter
[10:06]or, you know, smarter or something. I don't know. I can't even, you know, they don't need
[10:10]anywhere ammunition. But back to the book, which is so fantastic. You know, one of the themes
[10:17]is anxiety, mental illness, what you do with your feelings, how you cope with them. There's
[10:23]the therapist, character, there's, and how she became a therapist and why. And then there's
[10:28]somebody in therapy. And then there's people contemplating suicide and jumping and, you know,
[10:34]the effects of the trauma of that. And all sorts of, I mean, this is like a, it's like different
[10:39]rooms, therapy rooms, almost, you know, it could be a comic sort of with the strips of it,
[10:45]how many strands there are rather. And in particular, the suicide element, which I know you touch on
[10:50]also in your acknowledgements and giving resources and everything at the very end, can you talk about
[10:55]your own experience? I lost a friend to suicide also. And it looks like from what you wrote,
[11:00]you did as well. But I don't know if you're comfortable talking about it or if that was sort of
[11:04]the genesis for the plot points or, or not. Well, it's, it's, I think I touched on the subject of
[11:10]suicide. No, almost all of my novels, I think. I'm not sure. I think, you know, almost all of them.
[11:17]No, I, I had a friend who had his life when I was around 20 years old. And, and I think I've,
[11:24]touched on it in different ways all through my career, but, but as a writer, but I think it's
[11:30]in this particular novel, I wanted to write something about it, about the fact that with the ripple
[11:37]effects, with the fact that it affects people in ways you couldn't imagine if someone ends their
[11:46]life. It's because you never get over it. It's impossible to get past. I mean, it's 20 years ago,
[11:53]that, that my friend, I miss it. And this is like, I'm, and I'm not over it. I'm not close
[11:59]to being over it. It doesn't, you know, there's no, you know, time heals all wounds. There's no,
[12:06]there's none of that. It doesn't, it doesn't become logical or clear or fair or you don't
[12:13]get over it. It, you can't get past it. And it affects you in ways that are almost incomprehensible
[12:22]if you haven't experienced it yourself. But, but in that way that everyone I meet who has someone
[12:30]close to them, who has ended their life, I think can understand what I mean when I say, well,
[12:38]after that, you never hear a phone ringing at an odd hour without thinking the absolute worst.
[12:48]It's just the first, you know, soon as the phone rings at like nine o'clock at night, you assume
[12:55]the very, very worst. And if it, if it calls, if it rings at one a.m., then you're, you know,
[13:02]you're on your feet running through a list of everyone you love. It's just, and that never leaves,
[13:11]that never ends, that never is still have those moments where you just assume the very worst.
[13:19]If someone calls you and says, oh, I have some bad news, you immediately to go to that,
[13:25]you know, the very, very, very worst, imaginal place. And of course, you can be that sort of
[13:32]person without having lost someone. But if you have lost someone, you kind of forced into that
[13:39]personality and it never ends, you're never going to be past it. You're never going to get over it.
[13:44]And that's probably the thing that I wanted to touch on in this particular novel that there are
[13:51]people here and there are ripple effects, but they never, something happened to a couple of these
[13:56]people and they could never get past it. They could never get over it. It still holds them back,
[14:03]and I wanted to touch on that and the exciting part. And then there's a comedy, which is,
[14:10]you know, if this is the way you'd pitch it, people would not assume, oh, this sounds fun,
[14:16]but that's how I use comedy. I used comedy to be able to talk about the very serious matters,
[14:25]because without the comedic settings, it would just be, it would almost be unbearable.
[14:30]I think, you know, I used the comedic setting to put us in a place where we can have this
[14:38]discussion without its ending us. I feel like they call that gallows humor right now in the
[14:45]depths of despair. You have to joke. Sometimes it's the only way to get through. And it's almost like
[14:51]this, that's this on a broader application of it, if you will. Well, it's a
[14:57]mechanism more than anything to me. Yes, for sure. And what about writing for you itself?
[15:04]Has that helped you sort of through some of these? I know you said you can't get over it,
[15:08]which sounds sort of, you know, depressing and discouraging for people who are trying to get through
[15:15]anything, because all you can really do is go one day at a time, right? It's just today until
[15:19]tomorrow and this endless stream of days. So, you know, just writing help you sort of hope with
[15:25]all of that yourself. But I think you get through it. You just don't get past it. That's right.
[15:30]It's easier. You develop coping mechanisms. It's just the fact that 20 years down the line,
[15:39]it's still incomprehensible. It still makes no absolutely no sense. And you still,
[15:48]you know, no matter how much time passes, the whole, I mean, that sounds so stupid. And so,
[15:58]I mean, it sounds almost shallow, I guess, that that when it happens to someone,
[16:04]someone is going through that experience, someone close to them and their life. And they start
[16:10]saying things like, oh, if I only had or if I had known or if all the day before I should have
[16:18]all that morning, I was gone up, but I didn't, and as soon as people start that, the only thing
[16:22]that you can tell them is you can't do that to you. So you can, you cannot go down that road,
[16:27]and I'm only saying that because that road never ends. In 20 years, you'll be asking yourself
[16:35]the exact same questions. And nothing will have changed. So there's no, there's no coming to
[16:42]terms with it. There's no answers down the line. And there might be a strange subject to bring
[16:47]into something that I wrote as a comedy, but it's the only setting where I could include it.
[16:53]It's the only setting where I'd say, well, I can touch on this in a comedic setting because
[16:58]it's bearable there, but I have a very, very hard time touching on that subject in a dramatic setting
[17:06]because it just gets too, too heavy. It's just bearable. But I also wanted for the purpose of the
[17:14]novel I wanted to touch on the fact that it has ripple effects like people, people affect each other.
[17:20]In ways you're not aware of and in ways you're not expecting and in a comedic setting, I find
[17:28]that helpful because it's incredibly annoying to people. It's incredibly annoying to people
[17:35]that you're affected by others, that that you're not this pure little mechanism in the world
[17:44]where you make choices and you, you know, we're not masters of our own fate. I mean, it's a good,
[17:52]it's a good motivational speech before sports. You know, before the big game is a great motivational
[18:00]speech, but we are not masters of our own fate. We're not. We're affected by what other people
[18:07]are doing all of the time and that annoys us. And part of the, the comedic setting for this book
[18:15]was that to begin with, the people who are in the past situation are people who are very, very
[18:24]bad at handling the fact that other people sometimes controlled their fate. So they're already
[18:32]to begin with their annoyed and emotionally violated by the fact that someone is here with a gun,
[18:42]now I can't leave. I can't go about my day because you decided to take me hostage and that
[18:51]annoys me, that annoys me because I'm a person who I don't want to stand in line. I don't want
[18:57]to wait. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be in traffic. I don't want other people to have
[19:03]this effect on me. That's sort of where the comedic structure came from, like these kind of people
[19:09]who would get annoyed if you're in a traffic jam because someone was in an accident.
[19:15]Some people get immediately annoyed that why would you get into an accident when I'm in a
[19:21]hurry? Like why can't you just, you know, there's no empathy there. There's no like, oh my god,
[19:27]someone was in an accident. It's like, really ruined my day. You know, you broke your car off the road
[19:32]and now I have to wait because of the thing that's the comedic structure. And then I tried to,
[19:38]you know, weave that into the thing with someone ends their life. That doesn't end it. I mean,
[19:45]that doesn't, your life continues in all of the other people, all of the people around, even
[19:51]people you didn't know are affected by this now. And because this decision has so many ripple
[19:57]effects. So that's you.
[20:00]Usually my structure that I'll try to find one comedic structure that I can build into
[20:06]a direct structure and try to make you laugh and then make you say, oh yeah, but I get
[20:15]reborn with this.
[20:16]Wow.
[20:17]Well, well done on that front.
[20:19]I will never sit in the traffic and traffic the same way.
[20:23]I know.
[20:24]It's so all these short hands of life, right?
[20:28]That all becomes about time and whose time is important and how to maximize time and
[20:33]sometimes in haste, people forget what's actually important in life, just other people
[20:39]and connections and all of that.
[20:41]Anyway, are you working on anything new now?
[20:44]Yeah, I'm finishing.
[20:46]I wrote baritone and I was against you when I'm finishing the third part of that now.
[20:50]So the third part of that trilogy, I think is going to be called the winners in the US.
[20:56]So I'm finishing it now, so it's going to be out in Sweden in October, so I'm guessing
[21:01]next year for the US.
[21:03]That's about where I am.
[21:05]And do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[21:08]Yeah, well, depends on the subject.
[21:14]Any advice or something in particular or?
[21:17]Any advice?
[21:18]Well, there's a couple of things that I tend to go back to.
[21:21]I think, you know, first of all, finish something.
[21:24]That's my first advice because a lot of people come, a lot of people get in touch
[21:29]with me and they say, I have this great idea for an hour.
[21:32]What should I do?
[21:34]You should write them up or I've written a great outline for an hour, like, should I contact
[21:39]a publisher?
[21:40]No, you should write another.
[21:42]Yeah, but what about, yeah, but, you know, finish the story, finish the story another
[21:48]time.
[21:49]Yeah, but how do you go about getting a publisher and do I need to get an agent and
[21:54]you need to finish the story?
[21:57]Because it's impossible for me to read something that doesn't exist, put it down on paper
[22:02]and, you know, then turn to the other problems, but, you know, finish it and also whatever
[22:07]you're writing, finish something and that sounds, that sounds, you know, like, a bit of
[22:15]of land advice, but it's instead of trying to write this huge original novel that is going
[22:24]to change the way we look at the publishing industry, try to write an available, like, try
[22:29]to get like one story, 10 pages, just get that down on page and then finish it so that
[22:36]you can give it to someone and say, here's something I wrote.
[22:40]Would you read it?
[22:41]Tell me what you think.
[22:42]As soon as you finish the story, you get that sense of achievement, you get that sense
[22:46]of, hey, I finished it, I had this idea, I wrote it from start of finish, and I finished
[22:51]it.
[22:52]And even if it's just 10 pages, you have that, how I'm putting this aside now, I'm starting
[22:56]my second project now, and that does something to you, but you also learn so much from
[23:01]having finished project because as soon as you finish it, you can go back to the beginning
[23:07]and say, wow, I learned something from this writing process.
[23:11]And if I started over now, I would have written this another way.
[23:15]I would have started, and I think, you know, I know you get all these ideas and then,
[23:20]you know, once in a while, something that starts with 10 pages, all of a sudden you realize
[23:26]like, I think I could build this into an novel, but a lot of the, I mean, I think a lot
[23:32]of really, really good novels has a basic idea that you could write down on pages.
[23:38]And then all of the rest of it is that's the world expanding.
[23:41]So try to have an idea that's possible to finish, like try to get your ideas as simple
[23:50]as possible.
[23:51]So that's one thing.
[23:52]Another thing is don't, I'm not going to give this advice and say this is how you should
[23:56]do it.
[23:57]I can only say that for me, it helped a lot when I realized that I wasn't original,
[24:03]that I wasn't special.
[24:05]Math was the turning point in my career, and that sounds really stupid, but there
[24:09]really was because when I figured out, because up to a certain point in your life,
[24:13]you want to be original, you want to be special, you have this, you have this, you want
[24:18]to be Harry Potter up to a certain age.
[24:20]You're dreaming about the fact that one day I'm going to get a letter and it's going
[24:27]to say I'm chosen and everything is going to be, everything up to that point is going
[24:33]to be all, this is where my adventure begins, because I'm a genius, and no one knew
[24:40]it's, you know, you might be a genius, you might be, but most of us aren't.
[24:47]And when I figured out in my late 20s that I'm not really special, I'm not really original,
[24:55]I'm probably not going to write, I'm probably never going to write a novel where everyone
[25:01]says like, wow, this really, this is such an original setting or such an original
[25:06]story, it's such a, most of the things that I do are fairly conventional, they're
[25:13]their conventional in the way I build them, there is a very classical, dramatic curve to
[25:20]everything I do, but you can fill it with something, you can fill it with something that's
[25:25]uninteresting, or you can fill it with emotions and something that makes people care.
[25:30]Most of the great songs that I like, they're three or four quarters, but you can play three or
[25:36]four chords, you can play them great if you put everything into it, but not everything has to be
[25:42]complicated, not everything has to be original or like mind blowing. And when I figured that out
[25:49]was when I figured out the things that I like, a lot of other people's like too, like it's very
[25:55]rare for me to wow, I saw this TV show and I loved it. And then I go on like IMDB and oh, it's
[26:05]got 3.7, that very rarely happens. Most of the things that I like, I go on, I go on the internet
[26:12]and so, oh, it's got an eight point two. Yes, what? Six million other people loved it too,
[26:20]it's most of the books that I love. I go online as well. Yeah, you love it because it's a classic
[26:27]where you love it. You know what? It's the number one bestseller all over the world because
[26:33]everyone else loves it too. I have the same kind of taste as a lot of other people do. And when
[26:41]I figured that out, that well, it's very rare for me to say like, well, I love this obscure thing
[26:47]that no one has ever heard of. When I figured out out, it was, well, that's good because that means
[26:53]I can trust my instincts. That means when I write, I never have to think, I think this is what people
[27:00]want. I think this is what the audience crave. I don't have to think that. The only thing I think
[27:06]I have to do is think, do I like this? Is this the emotional starting point that I want to be from
[27:15]and is this doing something to me? And that was the whole turning point in my career when I
[27:20]figured it out that I can trust my instincts because if I like this, there's probably going to be
[27:26]other people who likes it too. That's so funny. You say that because I feel like I feel the same
[27:31]way. I was talking to a girlfriend of mine this morning about this, about your book and how great
[27:36]it is. And then I was like, but you know, it's not like I'm discovering something like it's the
[27:40]number one bestseller. Like I feel like ridiculous that I'm like, I loved this book. You know, like
[27:45]my taste matters, but it's true. I feel like sometimes I even feel with emotions too and I don't
[27:51]need to ramble. But you know, if I have an emotion, like if I'm really sad about something or I'm
[27:55]really nervous or worried in a given moment, that just means that there are so many other people
[27:59]out there having the same feeling that I'm having. So if I write it down, I know that if I express
[28:05]it, somebody else is feeling it and they'll feel better because they'll know that I felt it.
[28:09]So anyway, I don't write fiction, but I feel the same way about sort of that emotional
[28:14]authenticity. You know, but that's the starting point. And then, you know, I can say that and
[28:19]sound clever. I don't live by it. It's not, I mean, my wife has to tell me on a daily basis,
[28:26]when I get annoyed with someone and not on a daily basis, because she doesn't have the energy to
[28:33]tell me on a daily basis. Most of the time, she just ignores me. But once in a while,
[28:38]she'll turn to me and she'll say, you know what, maybe they were going through some stuff,
[28:43]you know, you know what Frederick, maybe you're not the only one having a bad day here,
[28:48]you know, maybe they're having a bit of a day too. So, you know, maybe cut them some slack,
[28:55]you know, maybe that job is not that fun. So maybe maybe you take a breath because you, you make stuff
[29:03]up for a living. So maybe, you know, maybe have some patience for someone who's actually doing a job.
[29:11]We have that discussion a lot. And it's easy to say, but it's hard to live by, but that comes back
[29:17]to the fact that in the novel actions people, that's the thing I keep returning to, that it's
[29:24]so incredibly annoying that other people affect your so much, that you're dependent on other people,
[29:31]especially that you're dependent on strangers, like strangers can make or rate your day,
[29:36]that's incredibly annoying fact. It's true. It's so true. Well, Frederick, thank you,
[29:43]this has been so interesting. And I was so excited to talk to you. I loved your book. I'm a huge
[29:49]fan. I love the way you just think about the world. It's really awesome. So thank you for chatting with
[29:54]me today. I hope your back feels better. That's why I'm starting to move around. Okay.
[30:00]Well, you made it this far.
[30:03]But I hope you got a little bit of what you were hoping for.
[30:06]I definitely did.
[30:07]I just wanted to get to know you better.
[30:09]And I mean, I hope that you feel that you shared enough
[30:12]that this is the real you.
[30:17]Thank you for having me.
[30:18]My pleasure.
[30:19]Not a good day.
[30:20]You too. Bye-bye.
[30:21]Bye-bye.
[30:22]Bye-bye.
[30:24]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[30:26]to Read Books.
[30:27]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram
[30:29]at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:32]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[30:35]and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:36]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[30:42]for the Sound Editing.
[30:43]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:45]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.